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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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That's not possible, Raymond.

Baker buzzed past this guy approximately 3 seconds after the frame in question.

Thank you for pointing this out, Duncan, because I am useless at photographs.

But I don't think that ends the matter.

Argument: Baker ran in past Oz, standing in the doorway,

with no idea what is going on, and went to the rear of the building.

Oz, with no idea what is going on,

went inside and up the front stairs to get his coke.......

Reminder: The burden of proof is on the prosecution.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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"Finally, this man has been discussed many many times at http://www.jfkassass.../board,2.0.html and many enhancements have been made there and are still available for viewing."

Translation = We've done ALL of the research that needs to be done on the assassination at JFKAssassinationForum.com and any further research is a TOTAL waste of time. Oswald did it; embrace it, live with it.

Robert, please link to a more specific discussion and enhancements of this photo - which Gary Mack says is from the Darnell Film, which I too would like to see in motion in full, if it is available.

After four decades on this case I too was surprised to see the photo, but Prudhomme's translation is garbled, as if he's done all the research that needs to be done on the assassination, then it can be all wrapped up and we can move on to more important issues.

If any further research is a waste of time, and Prudhomme has all the answers, including Oswald did it, something he has embraced and lives with, then I'd like to know how Oswald managed to be on the Sixth Floor of the TSBD when the shooting happened, where he got the bullets, who handed him the guns over the counter at the post office, where the strap on the rifle came from, why he had a scope that he couldn't use, who moved the boxes around in the window after the sniper had left the scene, how the rifle got to New Orleans and back to Texas, who closed Oswald's New Orleans PO box a week after he had left town, who intentionally impersonated Oswald in Mexico City and elsewhere,... and I have some more, but the answers to those questions will tell me if you know anything or are just a pompus......

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Ray, I nicknamed this guy 'Prayer Man' a few years back. He is standing in this spot in the doorway during the shooting.

He can't have still been in the front entrance way as Baker was reaching the steps.

Sean, I should have known not to give Bill Kelly a swelled head,

and I am delighted that a REAL Irishman saw this before Bill did.

I appreciate Duncan's input, and I think this is important, but I have had a long hard day (for a change, I am officially retired)

but I look forward to discussing this further.

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"Finally, this man has been discussed many many times at http://www.jfkassass.../board,2.0.html and many enhancements have been made there and are still available for viewing."

Translation = We've done ALL of the research that needs to be done on the assassination at JFKAssassinationForum.com and any further research is a TOTAL waste of time. Oswald did it; embrace it, live with it.

Robert, please link to a more specific discussion and enhancements of this photo - which Gary Mack says is from the Darnell Film, which I too would like to see in motion in full, if it is available.

After four decades on this case I too was surprised to see the photo, but Prudhomme's translation is garbled, as if he's done all the research that needs to be done on the assassination, then it can be all wrapped up and we can move on to more important issues.

If any further research is a waste of time, and Prudhomme has all the answers, including Oswald did it, something he has embraced and lives with, then I'd like to know how Oswald managed to be on the Sixth Floor of the TSBD when the shooting happened, where he got the bullets, who handed him the guns over the counter at the post office, where the strap on the rifle came from, why he had a scope that he couldn't use, who moved the boxes around in the window after the sniper had left the scene, how the rifle got to New Orleans and back to Texas, who closed Oswald's New Orleans PO box a week after he had left town, who intentionally impersonated Oswald in Mexico City and elsewhere,... and I have some more, but the answers to those questions will tell me if you know anything or are just a pompus......

Mr. Kelly

Please take a moment, read my post again, and attempt to see the sarcasm in my writing.

P.S. I was banned from Mr. MacRae's forum for repeatedly referring to the permanent band of LN'ers residing there as "paid disinformation agents".

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I took it as sarcasm.

I think Mr. Kelly will, too, once he reads it again. :up

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I took it as sarcasm.

I think Mr. Kelly will, too, once he reads it again. :up

Well I don't know you and have never posted at the web forum you referred to, and if there were some previous serious discussions of this photo and you have links to them, I'd like to read them. I spent some time at the link you posted and could not find the reference you refer to and if there isn't any, and you are just trying to be funny, then you will have to spell it out for me before I get it.

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Duncan

Is there a particular thread or do we have to wade through them all?

All i get is the photographic page not a thread

Ian

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In absence of a veiw at other research on this matter.

Are some assuming its not Oswald because :-

He has to get to the lunchroom so Baker can avoid the man on the 3rd/4th floor?

He could not be there and on the 6th floor as the same man is seen just after the shots

He had just arrived from the grassy knoll?.

Oswald mentions guiding someone to a payphone?

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  • He is standing in this spot in the doorway during the shooting.
  • He is standing in this spot in the doorway as Baker reaches the front steps.
  • He can't be Billy Lovelady, whom he rather looks like. Lovelady shows up beside him in the Altgens photo and the Wiegman film. And besides, Lovelady recalled looking back from the 'island' out on Elm and seeing Baker and Truly about to enter the building. He can't have still been in the front entrance way as Baker was reaching the steps.
  • He can't be Shelley--who was (again, per his own and Lovelady's testimony) with Lovelady out on the 'island' at this time--and who has been pretty securely identified in 11/22 images as having worn a dark suit and tie that day.
  • He can't be Buell Wesley Frazier who was wearing a dark blue jacket and looked nothing like Prayer Man.

Long story short: we still don't know who this man was.

Which means that Lee Oswald's accusers, who have the burden of proof,

now have a little bit of a problem, if they can't ID this man.

Because he sure looks a lot like Lee.

Thank you Sean, and a belated WELCOME

to the Ed. Forum.

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John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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Right you are, Ray.

This is a frame from the Darnell film which shows Marrion Baker dashing to the front entrance.

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.ie/2013/08/oswald-leaving-tsbd.html

The man in the photo was in the very same spot as the shots were being fired. We know this because he can be seen right there in the Wiegman film taken just seconds earlier.

We still don't know who he is. He's not Lovelady. He's not Bill Shelley. He's not Buell Wesley Frazier.

Hi Sean,

I know we have discussed "prayer man" in previous postings, but the enhanced film clip has thrust this figure to a higher level of interest.

We know the fourteen individuals who identified themselves in testimony as being on the TSBD steps during the assassination. We can use the process of elimination to narrow down the choices of who prayer man might be:

7 women were on the steps, so we can eliminate all of them.

As you noted, we can eliminate Shelley, Lovelady and BWF.

We can also eliminate the 2 African American males

That narrows the field down to 2 men, Joe Molina and Otis Williams.

In a letter from Shirley Martin to Harold Weisberg, (7/8/67, Weisberg Archives)

(Quoting Shirley) Joe Molina claims to be the man in suit standing next to Lovelady-Oswald figure in Altgens photo.

Since prayer man appears to be wearing a shirt, that should eliminate Molina. (For myself, I have serious doubts that Molina was even on the steps. No one else in the step group identified him as being there. But that is another discussion ...)

That leaves Otis Williams. But there are also some issues with Williams. He was a "Bookkeeping supervisor" at the TSBD. Would a supervisor be wearing an unbuttoned shirt at work?

In a quote from No More Silence, by Larry Sneed, pp 117-118, Williams says:

"Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs where the warehouse elevator was which led to the 6th floor and went up to the 4th floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass ..."

This makes is highly unlikely the man in the photo is Williams.

Any photos of Otis Williams or Joe Molina would have been valuable for comparison, but from the available information, I don't believe either of them match the visible requirements of prayer man.

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John Simkin's new zero tolerance policy approach is for members to attack the research and not the researcher.

I respectfully request that the moderators take action by implementing the alleged zero tolerance policy against this member.

Duncan MacRae

I agree with Duncan IN PRINCIPLE, and I for one have always valued Duncan's input,

especially on matters photographic, but in fairness to Mr. Prudhomme

he was just reporting something that happened on another forum.

He does not abuse people the way Jim Di Eugenio used to do.

Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.

If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.

If this is Oswald, and Baker has yet to enter the TSBD, then Oswald must have gone up the front stairs or taken the front elevator to the second floor in order to greet Baker in the 2nd floor lunchroom before he purchased the coke.

And if Duncan and those on his forum are familiar with the photo evidence, perhaps they can tell us about the other photos and films that precede and follow this one or if there are any other photos or films that include this person.

And as for Mr. Hocking's quote of Williams' actions, Williams couldn't have taken the warehouse elevator to the fourth floor immediately after the third shot because it was on the fifth floor. He must have taken the front elevator, that didn't go to the sixth floor but only went to the fourth floor, which is where he said he went.

BK

Edited by William Kelly

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