Why I believe the SBT is nothing but BS

[David Von Pein]

The earlier hit on Kennedy--a centerpiece of the HSCA's conclusions and a centerpiece of Vincent Bugliosi's case against Oswald in the 1986 mock trial--was made to DISAPPEAR. POOF.

Isn't it fairly obvious what happened there, Pat? (It's obvious to me anyway.)

Bugliosi was pretty much stuck with a Z190 timestamp for the SBT at the 1986 TV docu-trial in London, and that's because his ONE expert who was going to testify about the validity of the SBT was from the HSCA--Cecil Kirk. And the HSCA had concluded (for some silly reason) that JFK was reacting to being shot prior to going behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Therefore, what was Mr. Bugliosi supposed to do considering those restrictions? Just toss his whole case and the SBT out the window?

It's also very possible (even likely, given the early stage of Bugliosi's research into the JFK case as of 1986) that Mr. Bugliosi totally concurred and accepted as fact the HSCA's loony Z190 timing for the Single-Bullet Theory. But after more study and examination of the facts, Bugliosi on his own (and in his book) refined his own thoughts about when the SBT took place.

Vince is still a little bit off, of course, with Bugliosi favoring an SBT hit closer to Z210 than the true frame of Z224, but Vince does not want to put a SPECIFIC frame number on his evaluation. He played it safe, and says that the SBT bullet is striking "within a fraction of a second of Z210", which is, of course, correct. The Warren Commission did the same thing, bracketing the SBT at anywhere from Z210 to Z225. And they were right too, since Z224 falls within that span.

As a footnote to the Kirk/Mock Trial subject.....

I suppose Bugliosi could have utilized Lyndal Shaneyfelt as his "SBT" witness at the mock trial. Shaneyfelt, after all, did testify about other matters at that same television trial. But instead, Vince had Cecil Kirk tell the cockeyed story of the SBT striking at around Z190, which is totally ridiculous when we look at WHERE KENNEDY'S HANDS ARE LOCATED many frames later, at Z224. Now THAT'S a long delayed reaction.

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I am not letting you away with that nonsense. I never said that when the body was opened up there was a ton of damage. And I agree, with reservation regarding the lung and C7, that there was no major damage inside the body. But that is the critical point and that is the weakness of the SBT. There should have been significant damage had CE 399 traveled through JFK’s upper chest area.

The damage (or the LACK of damage would be a better way to say it) that we find in President Kennedy's upper back and neck is exactly what we would expect to find if the Single-Bullet Theory is true.

And the number of bullets found in JFK's body is also exactly what we would expect to find if the SBT is a reality. And that number is ZERO.

The same cannot be said of any theory that is postulated by conspiracy theorists to replace the SBT, particularly the theorists who insist that TWO bullets entered JFK's body from opposite sides, with neither bullet exiting the body, and somehow these TWO bullets cause no substantial damage at all in Kennedy's upper body. (And the bullets disappear too, which is always nice.) Such a theory is just simply NOT a reasonable one to believe.

Moreover, we've got John Connally also being struck in his UPPER BACK too.

Plus, the Zapruder Film is showing the two victims reacted to external stimulus at precisely the same time (despite the protests of the CTers).

And then we've got a bullet found in the hospital which links directly to a rifle that was found in the Book Depository on Elm Street.

Plus we have what SHOULD be an eye-opener for the conspiracists: The fact that from the point-of-view of the assassin on the sixth floor of the Depository, the two victims inside the Presidential limousine are lined up--one in front of the other--just an instant prior to the time on the Zapruder Film when those two victims are reacting to being hit by gunfire [see Commission Exhibit No. 894].

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0052a.htm

All of the above points tell a reasonable person evaluating this "sum total" of facts surrounding the shooting that it is very likely (if not nearly a certainty) that one single bullet did, indeed, go through the bodies of JFK and John B. Connally in Dallas' Dealey Plaza.

A half-dead goldfish could probably figure this out. But after fifty years, no conspiracy theorist can seem to do it.

~big shrug~

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, Dave, how did the bullet get past JFK's cervical vertebrae without breaking any of them?

[Pat Speer]

Not to jump in the middle of this, where I have no skin in the game, but...

Despite certain reservations about the SBT, I do not concur that JFK is clearly hit before he goes behind the sign, and that JBC is clearly not hit until after he emerges from the sign. There are some good arguments against the SBT, but this is not one of them.

I strongly disagree. We are constantly told that we're supposed to listen to the experts. Well, in this case, the experts have concluded that Kennedy showed a response to being shot as he went behind the sign. And the experts weren't blowing smoke. This was clearly demonstrated in the video I wrote for Black Op last year.

I respect your opinion on this, and those experts who share your opinion, but I still disagree.

Years ago, when we were working from jumpy optical copies of the film, I was unsure. I don't believe it is possible to determine with precision the moments of impact from still frames. When much clearer, closer to the original versions of the film became available, and especially versions reframed to minimize the jumpiness of the film, it became easier to focus on the movements while in motion. I am not able to see, with any degree of certainty, a pre-sign reaction which I could interpret as "obviously hit."

I have reservations about several things, especially CE399, but I now think that the observation that JFK was hit before going behind the sign is not a strong argument. Not strong enough to be sure. Just my opinion.

Well, I agree that it's impossible to be 100% certain of these things. Naturally, it comes down to interpretation. But when one looks closely at the film it is clear Kennedy's right arm juts forward in an unnatural motion as he goes behind the sign, at the same time his torso spins to the left. This matches the description of Kennedy's response to the shot by his devoted watchdog, Dave Powers, who was staring at Kennedy when the first shot was fired.

It's as conclusive as anything regarding the impact of the shots, IMO, and more conclusive than Connally's being hit at 224, IMO.

[Pat Speer]

The earlier hit on Kennedy--a centerpiece of the HSCA's conclusions and a centerpiece of Vincent Bugliosi's case against Oswald in the 1986 mock trial--was made to DISAPPEAR. POOF.

Isn't it fairly obvious what happened there, Pat? (It's obvious to me anyway.)

Bugliosi was pretty much stuck with a Z190 timestamp for the SBT at the 1986 TV docu-trial in London, and that's because his ONE expert who was going to testify about the validity of the SBT was from the HSCA--Cecil Kirk. And the HSCA had concluded (for some silly reason) that JFK was reacting to being shot prior to going behind the Stemmons Freeway sign.

Therefore, what was Mr. Bugliosi supposed to do considering those restrictions? Just toss his whole case and the SBT out the window?

It's also very possible (even likely, given the early stage of Bugliosi's research into the JFK case as of 1986) that Mr. Bugliosi totally concurred and accepted as fact the HSCA's loony Z190 timing for the Single-Bullet Theory. But after more study and examination of the facts, Bugliosi on his own (and in his book) refined his own thoughts about when the SBT took place.

Vince is still a little bit off, of course, with Bugliosi favoring an SBT hit closer to Z210 than the true frame of Z224, but Vince does not want to put a SPECIFIC frame number on his evaluation. He played it safe, and says that the SBT bullet is striking "within a fraction of a second of Z210", which is, of course, correct. The Warren Commission did the same thing, bracketing the SBT at anywhere from Z210 to Z225. And they were right too, since Z224 falls within that span.

As a footnote to the Kirk/Mock Trial subject.....

I suppose Bugliosi could have utilized Lyndal Shaneyfelt as his "SBT" witness at the mock trial. Shaneyfelt, after all, did testify about other matters at that same television trial. But instead, Vince had Cecil Kirk tell the cockeyed story of the SBT striking at around Z190, which is totally ridiculous when we look at WHERE KENNEDY'S HANDS ARE LOCATED many frames later, at Z224. Now THAT'S a long delayed reaction.

As usual, you're much too soft on Vince. He says the bullet hit at 224 throughout his book until he comes to the part where he has to discuss the trajectory. He then switches to the Z-210 theory so he can use the WC re-enactment photo of 210, which shows Kennedy and Connally in near-alignment. If he'd used 224, well, then, he'd have been forced to use the WC re-enactment photo of 225, which shows them out of alignment. I realize, of course, that you can't see Vince as the chronic abuser of evidence that he is, but you have to admit that's mighty suspicious.

[Pat Speer]

I am not letting you away with that nonsense. I never said that when the body was opened up there was a ton of damage. And I agree, with reservation regarding the lung and C7, that there was no major damage inside the body. But that is the critical point and that is the weakness of the SBT. There should have been significant damage had CE 399 traveled through JFK’s upper chest area.

The damage (or the LACK of damage would be a better way to say it) that we find in President Kennedy's upper back and neck is exactly what we would expect to find if the Single-Bullet Theory is true.

And the number of bullets found in JFK's body is also exactly what we would expect to find if the SBT is a reality. And that number is ZERO.

The same cannot be said of any theory that is postulated by conspiracy theorists to replace the SBT, particularly the theorists who insist that TWO bullets entered JFK's body from opposite sides, with neither bullet exiting the body, and somehow these TWO bullets cause no substantial damage at all in Kennedy's upper body. (And the bullets disappear too, which is always nice.) Such a theory is just simply NOT a reasonable one to believe.

Moreover, we've got John Connally also being struck in his UPPER BACK too.

Plus, the Zapruder Film is showing the two victims reacted to external stimulus at precisely the same time (despite the protests of the CTers).

And then we've got a bullet found in the hospital which links directly to a rifle that was found in the Book Depository on Elm Street.

Plus we have what SHOULD be an eye-opener for the conspiracists: The fact that from the point-of-view of the assassin on the sixth floor of the Depository, the two victims inside the Presidential limousine are lined up--one in front of the other--just an instant prior to the time on the Zapruder Film when those two victims are reacting to being hit by gunfire [see Commission Exhibit No. 894].

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0052a.htm

All of the above points tell a reasonable person evaluating this "sum total" of facts surrounding the shooting that it is very likely (if not nearly a certainty) that one single bullet did, indeed, go through the bodies of JFK and John B. Connally in Dallas' Dealey Plaza.

A half-dead goldfish could probably figure this out. But after fifty years, no conspiracy theorist can seem to do it.

~big shrug~

OMG, David! I just responded to another post with a discussion of Bugliosi's switcheroo regarding Z-210 and Z-225, and here you are doing the exact same thing! Does he write your script? (Just kidding.)

As far as the rest of your post, this bit stands out:

"The damage (or the LACK of damage would be a better way to say it) that we find in President Kennedy's upper back and neck is exactly what we would expect to find if the Single-Bullet Theory is true."

Where in the heck do you get this? Please cite some sources on this one. While a number of doctors have signed off on the government's SBT, I don't recall a single doctor saying that the lack of damage in Kennedy's neck and small exit on his throat is EXACTLY what we should expect when a high-velocity bullet traverses a neck from front to back.

[David Von Pein]

He [Vincent T. Bugliosi] says the bullet hit at 224 throughout his book until he comes to the part where he has to discuss the trajectory. He then switches to the Z-210 theory...

I don't think you're correct on this point, Pat. Although, yes, Vince does say in some parts of the book (endnotes I think) that the Z224 hit could be "possible". But it seems to me that the very first time Vince mentions any specific frames for the SBT in the hardcover book (not the endnotes) is on page 463, when he says the SBT happened "somewhere between Z frames 210 and 222". That statement certainly isn't endorsing a "Z224" SBT hit.

From a brief search of Vincent's SBT chapter, I can't see anywhere in there where he is specifically endorsing a Z224 SBT hit. Can you point me to such an endorsement by Vince in the hardcover volume, Pat? Unless you're referring to the place on page 40, where Vince says the second shot occurs "3.5 seconds" after the first shot. Is that what you meant?

Related excerpts from my "Reclaiming History" book review:

"VB [Vincent Bugliosi] says in an endnote (on page 25 of the notes) that the SBT shot occurs at "Z223-224"; so I'm not quite sure which exact Z-Film frame Vince totally endorses, if any.

Plus, on pages 325 to 327 of the CD's endnotes, Bugliosi acknowledges the very real possibility (via Dr. John Lattimer's 1994 "lapel bulge" tests) that a single bullet could have passed through both Kennedy and Connally at Z224.

Vince actually mentions a 3-frame range of Zapruder frames in this "lapel" regard, which seems a little strange to me; but at least VB admits the possibility of the bullet striking at the correct frame (IMO) of Z224, when he says this on endnote page 325: "A bulging of the right lapel of the governor's suit coat may pinpoint the moment Governor Connally is hit to be at Z222–224".

[...]

There's another indication in the book that VB advocates the exact same frame for the SBT that I, too, endorse (Z224). That occurs on page 40, when Vince says the second shot (the SBT shot) occurs "3.5 seconds" after the first shot which missed the limousine, a first shot which, elsewhere in the book, VB says comes at Z-Film frame 160.

And the only frame that is precisely "3.5" seconds after Z160 is Z224 (given the "round-off" mathematics that VB is utilizing on pages 40 and 41 and Zapruder's camera speed of 18.3 frames-per-second).

[MAY 2008 ADDENDUM: In his follow-up paperback book, "Four Days In November", Bugliosi has amended the "3.5 seconds" figure that is found in "Reclaiming History". On page 61 of the "Four Days" volume, VB has changed the "3.5 seconds" statistic to "2.7 seconds", which would be consistent with the SBT shot occurring right at frame 210 of the Zapruder Film.]" -- DVP

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Oh for Pete sake, Pat, the "lack of any damage is consistent with the SBT" remark is perfectly obvious. I mean: If a bullet had gone clean through JFK's body and struck only soft tissue and hit no bones (as both the WC and HSCA said it did), then what was found inside JFK's body (i.e., no substantial damage to any vital structures) is, indeed, exactly what one would expect to find in the body given such a circumstance.

(Did I really need to explain that?)

[Ray Mitcham]

Oh for Pete sake, Pat, the "lack of any damage is consistent with the SBT" remark is perfectly obvious. I mean: If a bullet had gone clean through JFK's body and struck only soft tissue and hit no bones (as both the WC and HSCA said it did), then what was found inside JFK's body (i.e., no substantial damage to any vital structures) is, indeed, exactly what one would expect to find in the body given such a circumstance.

(Did I really need to explain that?)

If..If...If……..As James has previously said, please show how the magic bullet could have travelled through his back and out of his throat without hitting any bones.

Just saying it didn't, doesn't mean a carrot, David and you know it.

[David Von Pein]

I guess it never occurred to Ray Mitcham to ask James Gordon this question---

Well, Jim, if the SBT is untrue and TWO (presumably) high-speed bullets entered JFK's upper back and throat, then how can you account for a total lack of damage to President Kennedy's vital structures within his upper body? Sounds pretty odd to me.

But, you see, I'm never allowed to pose that type of question to conspiracy theorists like James Gordon. Because if I do ask it, I'm accused of totally avoiding the analysis of people like Gordon. Even though it is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, and is a question that James has been ducking, because he will never be able to answer it in a reasonable and satisfactory manner.

I think the words "Pot" and "Kettle" come to mind now.

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[James R Gordon]

David,

I asked you two questions:

1. How could the bullet pass through JFK’s body without doing any serious damage?

2. How could the bullet find a path from entrance to exit in JFK’s upper chest?

And below is your answer.

“The damage (or the LACK of damage would be a better way to say it) that we find in President Kennedy's upper back and neck is exactly what we would expect to find if the Single-Bullet Theory is true.”

Even though a number of members have prompted you to respond, the only answer received is the robotic kind described above. What is clear is that you have no idea how to respond other than with these empty platitudes. Because there was a lack of damage, in your mind, that means the SBT is true. It appears to me that you are blind to any answer other than the WC was right, is right and will always be right. You clearly do not have an enquiring mind.

So I will answer the questions.

1. How could the bullet pass through JFK’s body without doing any serious damage?

It could not pass through that maze of arteries, veins and nerves without causing major damage.

However because of question 2

2. How could the bullet find a path from entrance to exit in JFK’s upper chest?

A normal bullet, as opposed to CE 399, would travel in a straight line. Therefore, as seen below, the bullet would have to cause massive damage to T1. It would have to go straight through it as shown below.

Cat Scan:-

Using your logic for why the SBT did not cause damage because there was no damage – that logic can be reversed. Because there was no major damage to the upper chest area that means the SBT never happened.

CE 399 did not have satellite navigation and so it could not fine the best route from entrance to exit. CE 399 was compelled to find the direct route and that means smashing T1.

Your normal response at this point is “are you saying that Humes et al were lying and that they covered up the mess they saw?” Answer: No. There was no mess because no bullet had traversed JFK’s upper chest area.

Your next automated question is this. “Well if you say there was no passage through the upper chest what caused the back wound and where is the bullet?” Answer: a bullet and where it is I have no idea. But the preservation of the crime scene was so appalling how are you so sure that there was no bullet found and not recorded?

In a response to Ray Mitcham you comment that since the bullet passed through soft flesh there was no damage done to the body.

You want another pass at that? Below is one of the X-rays taken before the autopsy was begun. It is clear to see something happened to the body, because the neck has collapsed to the right. Now this X-ray was taken before James Humes began his autopsy. Therefore this damage cannot be ascribed to his work on the autopsy.

So how can you say there was no damaged to the upper chest area, when it is clear there was?

X-ray:-

You then have the gall to complain that I do not answer your questions, when you have stonewalled everyone on this forum to answer questions made to you. However I will answer your questions.

You suggested to Ray Mitcham that the questions you wanted answered are:

“Well, Jim, if the SBT is untrue and TWO (presumably) high-speed bullets entered JFK's upper back and throat, then how can you account for a total lack of damage to President Kennedy's vital structures within his upper body? Sounds pretty odd to me.”

First there was damage to JFK’s body.

There was damage to C7/T1 and I document that on pages 15 – 18 in the document linked below.

There was also damage to the right lung and I document that on pages 19-23.

On page 8 I point out that the back wound seen on the autopsy image would have been between T1 and T2. That means that had the SBT actually occurred the bullet would have had to travel through the right lung. Because a bullet did not travel through the right lung is another reason why the SBT did not happen. Now you will comment about James Humes infamous 14cm. You go to page 8. I have identified geographical features the right scapula. I have identified an upper and lower regional limit and have shown that the wound was inside those limits. And in doing that I have shown that the wound has to be between T1 and T2. The body does not lie and therefore Humes 14cm is just wrong. The entry wound was lower than T1 and therefore the SBT would have needed to puncture the lung had it actually happened.

On pages 15 – 18 is also my description of how the wound in the throat occurred. And of course – just like clock work - comes your next question. “So where is that bullet?” The only answer is that it had to have been removed. When and how I have no idea. However some sort of missile had to cause the damage to C6/C7. Something had to cause the damage to the right lung. And the only answer I can come to is that what caused those two examples of damage had to be a missile. The fact that the missile is missing does not erase the damage, it is still able to document. The culprit may have vanished, but the damage still remains.

JFK document:-

https://www.transferbigfiles.com/301333d5-0c91-4778-a0fe-c956e0cc1fce/GLiFUzHJh5B5u1CApE1TvA2

James

Edited May 29, 2014 by James R Gordon

[David Von Pein]

James,

Yeah, just as I thought. Lots of missing bullets for the CTers. And you need TWO such vanishing missiles. (Three if you count the Connally bullet that you think hit JBC separately, and if you think the Connally bullet WASN'T CE399. But maybe you're willing to believe that 399 really was in a victim's body on Nov. 22. But if you are, watch out for the wrath of your fellow CTers, because in the last few years, I've encountered very few conspiracy advocates who actually think 399 was inside JFK or JBC.)

But just go blame the evil Government. They must have deep-sixed all the non-Oswald missiles. That usually works for the CT crowd. After all, everybody in Officialdom jumped on the "Let's Frame Oswald" bandwagon immediately after the assassination, didn't they?

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

How could the bullet pass through JFK’s body without doing any serious damage? It could not pass through that maze of arteries, veins and nerves without causing major damage.

But your **TWO** bullets that must replace the SBT somehow COULD get into JFK's body, and then just stop on a dime, and yet not cause any major damage. (Yeah, right. Take that one in front of a jury. I'd love to see the rolling eyes of the jurors after hearing that argument, coupled with their exasperated reaction after James Gordon tells the jurors that all the bullets somehow inexplicably disappeared, to boot.)

"And I agree, with reservation regarding the lung and C7, that there was no major damage inside the body." -- James R. Gordon

You've got TWO "magic bullets" there, James. And the funny thing is--you don't even seem to realize it.

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Ray Mitcham]

How could the bullet pass through JFK’s body without doing any serious damage? It could not pass through that maze of arteries, veins and nerves without causing major damage.

But your **TWO** bullets that must replace the SBT somehow COULD get into JFK's body, and then just stop on a dime, and yet not cause any major damage. (Yeah, right. Take that one in front of a jury. I'd love to see the rolling eyes of the jurors after hearing that argument, coupled with their exasperated reaction after James Gordon tells the jurors that all the bullets somehow inexplicably disappeared, to boot.)

"And I agree, with reservation regarding the lung and C7, that there was no major damage inside the body." -- James R. Gordon

You've got TWO "magic bullets" there, James. And the funny thing is--you don't even seem to realize it.

What do you think they were doing at the pre-autopsy.? Remember Sibert's comment on seeing the body when it was unwrapped at Bethesda- "There was surgery to the head" Who did the surgery to the head, David?

[David Von Pein]

Ray,

1979 Interview With Francis X. O'Neill

2005 Interview With James W. Sibert

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein