Why I believe the SBT is nothing but BS

[Ray Mitcham]

Unfortunately, at the present time, I haven't time to listen to the full interviews of Sibert or O'Neill. Perhaps you can tell me exactly what they say regarding the surgery to the head prior to the Bethesda autopsy, and where on the MP3.

Nice diversion, by the way, David. Never mind what happened to the two bullets. You still haven't tried to explain why there was not massive damage which the Magic bullet would have to have caused, to have taken the path you advocate.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Ray Mitcham

[David Von Pein]

Well, Ray, the O'Neill interview doesn't get into the "surgery" remark at all. I just threw that one in as a bonus. But O'Neill does confirm that ONLY "fragments" were taken from JFK's head at the autopsy--not a whole "missile".

Sibert talks about the "surgery" remark (which was not made by Sibert himself, of course, it was made by Dr. Humes) in this audio at about 9:00 ----> https://app.box.com/shared/v7pzrliv56

Edited May 29, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

What happened to the bullet that inflicted the back wound at the level of thoracic vertebra T3, roughly 5.75 inches below JFK's collar line?

Here are two clues from Trauma Room One, "trachea deviated noticeably to the left" and "chest tubes inserted into the right pleural cavity". Think about those for a while and I will explain the connection later.

[Ray Mitcham]

Well, Ray, the O'Neill interview doesn't get into the "surgery" remark at all. I just threw that one in as a bonus. But O'Neill does confirm that ONLY "fragments" were taken from JFK's head at the autopsy--not a whole "missile".

Sibert talks about the "surgery" remark (which was not made by Sibert himself, of course, it was made by Dr. Humes) in this audio at about 9:00 ----> https://app.box.com/shared/v7pzrliv56

Thanks for the information, David. At 8.44 Sibert says 'the official" autopsy started". As against the unofficial autopsy earlier? Regarding Humes and the surgery to the head- do you really think that a surgeon would confuse a wound with surgery/ You really are desperate.

Once again no answer to James's statements about the damage which would have been caused if the bullet had done as SBT's think. James sinks the single bullet theory completely. The singel bullet theory is the Titanic of the JFK assassination.

[James R Gordon]

David Von Pein wrote:

James,

Yeah, just as I thought. Lots of missing bullets for the CTers. And you need TWO such vanishing missiles. (Three if you count the Connally bullet that you think hit JBC separately, and if you think the Connally bullet WASN'T CE399. But maybe you're willing to believe that 399 really was in a victim's body on Nov. 22. But if you are, watch out for the wrath of your fellow CTers, because in the last few years, I've encountered very few conspiracy advocates who actually think 399 was inside JFK or JBC.)

But just go blame the evil Government. They must have deep-sixed all the non-Oswald missiles. That usually works for the CT crowd. After all, everybody in Officialdom jumped on the "Let's Frame Oswald" bandwagon immediately after the assassination, didn't they?

……………………………………………………………………………………………………….

But your **TWO** bullets that must replace the SBT somehow COULD get into JFK's body, and then just stop on a dime, and yet not cause any major damage. (Yeah, right. Take that one in front of a jury. I'd love to see the rolling eyes of the jurors after hearing that argument, coupled with their exasperated reaction after James Gordon tells the jurors that all the bullets somehow inexplicably disappeared, to boot.)

"And I agree, with reservation regarding the lung and C7, that there was no major damage inside the body." -- James R. Gordon

You've got TWO "magic bullets" there, James. And the funny thing is--you don't even seem to realize it.

David,

When I first read these posts I started a reply, but soon stopped. I was too shocked and so I decided to sleep on what I should reply. During this thread I noted that you admitted you were not a researcher. It is becoming more evident as this thread proceeds that you have undertaken no serious study of this case and are only able to repeat others ideas.

After a nights sleep I am still stunned by your reply. I take no enjoyment in observing that you are a complete embarrassment to your side of the argument. I cannot believe that from all the issues I have raised all you can respond is to demean me and make fun of the issues I have raised. Those issues, which are at the heart of the case you so passionately believe in, you have no interest in addressing.

It is not an irrelevant issue to point out that from entrance to exit there is no direct path from JFK’s back wound to his throat wound. You reply that because there is no damage in JFK’s upper chest area therefore the SBT is valid. The lack of damage is another issue. The issue is how can a bullet go from entrance to exit without smashing through the spine? Yes I agree, with fellow forum members, that your silence on this issue is irritating. But it is also embarrassing to you, it clearly and publicly demonstrates that you do not have an answer and hence your decision to duck the question. In an endeavor to avoid answering you comment about positions in the car, about JFK and JBC moving at the same time, about Connally also being injured – anything but to address the pertinent point. You appear to be oblivious to this fundamental point: unless you can answer the point about the path from entrance to exit the SBT is dead at that point. It the bullet cannot be demonstrated to be able to pass through JFK’s upper chest area it can go nowhere else. There is no SBT if you cannot establish how the bullet can travel from JFK’s back entrance to his throat exit. And at that point, the Connally wounds are a matter of utter indifference to the SBT.

The Rosetta stone of the SBT is not fancy trajectory analysis or Zapruder film analysis or simultaneous wounding, all of which I acknowledge are important: the kernel of the SBT is whether it is medically possible for a bullet to pass through JFK’s upper chest area. Everything stems from there, and what has stunned me is that this is not an issue you are interested in discussing.

James.

[Mark Knight]

It appears that Mr. Von Pein's beliefs are somewhat religious; they're apparently based upon faith, and not on whether they can be proven or not.

In my high school physics lab, we conducted experiments in order to prove certain concepts to be true. Acceleration of gravity was one, and we proved, within the limits of our equipment, that it truly was approximately 32 feet per second, per second. Mr. Gordon is simply using the physiology of the human body to determine whether the conclusions of the Warren Commission, among others, can be true regarding a single bullet traversing JFK's torso, given the entrance and exit points we have and the internal damage, or lack thereof. Mr. Gordon's conclusion is that the SBT cannot be accepted as fact, based upon the physiology of the human body...which is the same in every human body.

Mr. Von Pein's response is that it MUST be true, because these "authorities" say it is true.

Even the late Tom Purvis, who believed in the scenario three shots/three hits originating from the southeast corner window of the 6th floor of the TSBD by a single shooter/lone gunman, thought that the SBT was fiction. Purvis believed that the throat wound was an exiting fragment of CE399, from the lead core of the bullet...which he believed was tumbling when it hit JFK in the back. And of course such a fragment was unable to account for the wounds on Connally's body. Even that scenario makes more sense than the SBT.

But if nothing else, Mr. Von Pein is a man of faith. "The Warren Commission said it, I believe it, that settles it" seems to be his mantra. My advice to him is to put less faith in the statements of men, and more faith in that which can be proven...and the SBT fails the very first test, that of passing through JFK's torso in a straight line, relatively intact, without inflicting damage to tissues, bone, or organs. And unless it can be proven that the bullet can pass through JFK's torso in the manner described by the doctors and the WC conclusions, then the rest of the allegations of where the bullet went and what it did are moot, for the purposes of this discussion...as Mr. Gordon has stated so well.

Mr. Gordon has pretty much proven the WC's conclusion wrong, from a physiological standpoint. Once again, I challenge Mr. Von Pein to prove the WC correct, ALSO using physiological evidence and not merely falling back on rhetorical devices. I will bet that he won't...because he can't.

[David Von Pein]

It boils down to this....

By my rough count, the conspiracy theorists have TWO "magic bullets". The LNers have ONE so-called "magic bullet", which isn't magic at all, of course. The LN/SBT bullet at least EXISTS in the form of Commission Exhibit 399, whereas neither of the CT magic bullets exist at all. And yet CTers like Jim Gordon are so sure that TWO bullets did enter JFK's upper body. Seems to me like there's some "faith" going on there too, wouldn't you say, Mark Knight?

James doesn't think it's reasonable for me to ask him why there's no substantial damage inside JFK's upper body as a result of being hit by TWICE as many (supposedly) high-powered rifle bullets as the LNers postulate struck the President in the upper back and neck.

I'm supposed to be able to explain how ONE bullet managed to sneak through JFK's upper body without striking various organs, but James (who obviously DOES think JFK was struck by TWO bullets in the upper body versus just ONE bullet, with the entry points for each bullet being in just exactly the SAME place on Kennedy's body where I and all other LNers think they were!) doesn't think he's required to explain the ALTERNATIVE OPTION to the SBT, which would have him explaining to the world in a reasonable fashion how TWO bullets went into those SAME bullet holes in Kennedy's body and yet somehow caused NO major damage in that body, all the while vanishing from sight immediately after they entered.

Call me goofy if you'd like to, but James' scenario seems JUST AS HARD (or HARDER) to reconcile than the Single-Bullet Theory which features just one (non-vanishing) bullet going through JFK & JBC and ending up on Connally's stretcher.

I think maybe James WOULD be better off to just theorize that JFK wasn't shot AT ALL on November 22, 1963. That theory would be easier to reconcile than the one he has forced himself to try and reconcile--but he refuses to do so (and that's because he cannot reconcile it, because such a silly multiple-bullet theory is far more unbelievable than any "SBT").

Edited May 30, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is small wonder the public is not allowed to enter the area of the so called "Sniper's Nest" on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Just from viewing the evidence photos taken from the window on the SE corner, it quickly becomes apparent that Connally would have been sitting too far forward of JFK for the Magic Bullet to strike him under the right armpit, even allowing for an upward deviation after striking JFK's vertebra. The proof of this is that the bullet exited Connally's chest much lower than it entered his back.

Does anyone have access to a diagram showing a side view of the limo, the occupants and the trajectory of a bullet fired from the 6th floor to the limo at about the location of the sign?

Edited May 30, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Ray Mitcham]

It boils down to this....

By my rough count, the conspiracy theorists have TWO "magic bullets". The LNers have ONE so-called "magic bullet", which isn't magic at all, of course. The LN/SBT bullet at least EXISTS in the form of Commission Exhibit 399, whereas neither of the CT magic bullets exist at all. And yet CTers like Jim Gordon are so sure that TWO bullets did enter JFK's upper body. Seems to me like there's some "faith" going on there too, wouldn't you say, Mark Knight?

James doesn't think it's reasonable for me to ask him why there's no substantial damage inside JFK's upper body as a result of being hit by TWICE as many (supposedly) high-powered rifle bullets as the LNers postulate struck the President in the upper back and neck.

I'm supposed to be able to explain how ONE bullet managed to sneak through JFK's upper body without striking various organs, but James (who obviously DOES think JFK was struck by TWO bullets in the upper body versus just ONE bullet, with the entry points for each bullet being in just exactly the SAME place on Kennedy's body where I and all other LNers think they were!) doesn't think he's required to explain the ALTERNATIVE OPTION to the SBT, which would have him explaining to the world in a reasonable fashion how TWO bullets went into those SAME bullet holes in Kennedy's body and yet somehow caused NO major damage in that body, all the while vanishing from sight immediately after they entered.

Call me goofy if you'd like to, but James' scenario seems JUST AS HARD (or HARDER) to reconcile than the Single-Bullet Theory which features just one (non-vanishing) bullet going through JFK & JBC and ending up on Connally's stretcher.

I think maybe James WOULD be better off to just theorize that JFK wasn't shot AT ALL on November 22, 1963. That theory would be easier to reconcile than the one he has forced himself to try and reconcile--but he refuses to do so (and that's because he cannot reconcile it, because such a silly multiple-bullet theory is far more unbelievable than any "SBT").

David, you just don't get it, do you? The fact that the single bullet couldn't have happened because of the lack of damage on the alleged path, means it didn't happen. Regarding the two bullets that are missing, there are a number of ways to explain their absence.

The magic bullet couldn't have happened.

The two missing bullets could have.

Belief is a terrible thing. It's like trying to explain that world is round to a flat earther, talking to you.

[David Von Pein]

Robert,

The bullet merely changed course slightly between the entry and exit points in Connally's body.

After exiting JFK's throat, CE399 begins to tumble and lose velocity (and it loses some of its stability). And then it hits its first hard object -- Connally's rib. It's not unreasonable, therefore, to think that that bullet would change direction somewhat after entering John Connally's back.

[Ray Mitcham]

It is small wonder the public is not allowed to enter the area of the so called "Sniper's Nest" on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Just from viewing the evidence photos taken from the window on the SE corner, it quickly becomes apparent that Connally would have been sitting too far forward of JFK for the Magic Bullet to strike him under the right armpit, even allowing for an upward deviation after striking JFK's vertebra. The proof of this is that the bullet exited Connally's chest much lower than it entered his back.

Exactly, Bob. The bullet supposedly entered JFK's back at 17degrees downwards and yet at 25 degrees downwards in Connally.

A truly "cruise" missile.

[David Von Pein]

Ray,

How did your TWO bullets manage to enter JFK's upper body and yet CAUSE NO MAJOR DAMAGE at all?

Plus, since those TWO bullets of yours caused NO major damage, maybe you can explain to me how **BOTH** of those bullets managed to lose 100% of their velocity and just STOPPED inside Kennedy's soft tissue without exiting?

Any ideas, Ray?

Edited May 30, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Walter Cronkite summed things up very well in 1967 when he said this....

"If all three shots hit, then one of them would have had to pass through the President's neck, emerge at 1,800 feet per second, headed on a downward path toward the midst of the Presidential car and the six people in it, and vanish in mid-air, hitting nothing, and leaving no mark. Well, this was more than the Commission could stomach. Despite its own words, the Single-Bullet Theory IS essential to its findings.

[...]

Our own view on the evidence is that it is difficult to believe the Single-Bullet Theory. But, to believe the other theories is even MORE difficult. If the Governor's wounds were caused by a separate bullet, then we must believe that a bullet passed through the President's neck, emerged at high velocity on a course that was taking it directly into the middle of the automobile, and then vanished without a trace.

Or, we can complicate matters even further--as some do--by adding a second assassin, who fires almost simultaneously with Oswald and whose bullet travels miraculously a trajectory identical with Oswald's and that second assassin, too, vanishes without a trace.

Difficult to believe as the Single-Bullet Theory may be, it seems to be the LEAST difficult of all those that are available. In the end, like the Commission, we are persuaded that a single bullet wounded both President Kennedy and Governor Connally."

Edited May 30, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

David von Pein has NO answers.

[Ray Mitcham]

Ray,

How did your TWO bullets manage to enter JFK's upper body and yet CAUSE NO MAJOR DAMAGE at all?

Plus, since those TWO bullets of yours caused NO major damage, maybe you can explain to me how **BOTH** of those bullets managed to lose 100% of their velocity and just STOPPED inside Kennedy's soft tissue without exiting?

Any ideas, Ray?

Nope because the autopsy wasn't correctly carried out. If we had the full details and the surgeons had done their job we would; be wondering about thinks like that. But we do know that the magic bullet didn't cause trhe damage it should have. Perhaps you can explain that.