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David Von Pein

The "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition" Report

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The Edgewood Arsenal "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition" report is very interesting reading. More conspiracy theorists should look at it. Here it is.

Every single test performed between April 1964 and October 1964 by Dr. Olivier and Dr. Dziemian at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland is consistent with the Warren Commission's ultimate conclusions.

I.E.:

Per the Edgewood Arsenal ballistics tests with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle, that exact rifle was capable of causing all of the wounds that were inflicted on President Kennedy and Governor Connally on 11/22/63.

Quoting directly from the Edgewood report:

"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle." -- From the Edgewood Arsensal Report, Page 3

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The Edgewood Arsenal "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition" report is very interesting reading. More conspiracy theorists should look at it. Here it is.

Every single test performed between April 1964 and October 1964 by Dr. Olivier and Dr. Dziemian at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland is consistent with the Warren Commission's ultimate conclusions.

I.E.:

Per the Edgewood Arsenal ballistics tests with Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle, that exact rifle was capable of causing all of the wounds that were inflicted on President Kennedy and Governor Connally on 11/22/63.

Quoting directly from the Edgewood report:

"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle." -- From the Edgewood Arsensal Report, Page 3

"Could be".

Enough said.

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Quoting directly from the Edgewood report:

"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle." -- From the Edgewood Arsensal Report, Page 3

"Could be".

Enough said.

Well, for Pete sake, Ray, what did you expect the report to say? The Olivier report couldn't possibly go any further than a "could be". If they had gone further and said "definitely did", I can just hear the CTers bitching about that wording.

But many conspiracists insist that the 6.5mm. Carcano ammunition couldn't possibly have caused the type of head damage that JFK sustained.

However, the above excerpt from the Olivier/Dziemian report totally demolishes crackpot observations like the one quoted below....

"The weapon, which was not even a rifle [???], could not have fired the bullets that killed the president. .... The [Mannlicher-Carcano] bullets, which were standard copper-jacketed World War II-vintage military ammunition, could not have caused the explosive damage. .... This kind of ammunition...does not explode. .... [An] X-ray of the President's head...displays a pattern of metallic debris as effects of the impact of an exploding bullet, which could not have been caused by ammunition of the kind Oswald was alleged to have used, thereby exonerating him." -- James H. Fetzer

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/16-smoking-guns-or-16-misfires.html

In short, Dr. Fetzer and all other conspiracy theorists who have advanced similar theories about Oswald's rifle and bullets do not have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

Enough said.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Quoting directly from the Edgewood report:

"Experiments were performed with the 6.5-mm Mannlicher-Carcano assassination rifle, serial no. C2766, and 6.5-mm Western Cartridge Company, lot WCC 6000, Mannlicher-Carcano ball ammunition to reproduce the conditions occurring at the time of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on 22 November 1963. The results indicated that the wounds sustained by the President and by Governor Connally, including the massive head wound of the President, could be produced by the above type of bullet and rifle." -- From the Edgewood Arsensal Report, Page 3

"Could be".

Enough said.

Well, for Pete sake, Ray, what did you expect the report to say? The Olivier report couldn't possibly go any further than a "could be". If they had gone further and said "definitely did", I can just hear the CTers bitching about that wording.

But many conspiracists insist that the 6.5mm. Carcano ammunition couldn't possibly have caused the type of head damage that JFK sustained.

However, the above excerpt from the Olivier/Dziemian report totally demolishes crackpot observations like the one quoted below....

"The weapon, which was not even a rifle [???], could not have fired the bullets that killed the president. .... The [Mannlicher-Carcano] bullets, which were standard copper-jacketed World War II-vintage military ammunition, could not have caused the explosive damage. .... This kind of ammunition...does not explode. .... [An] X-ray of the President's head...displays a pattern of metallic debris as effects of the impact of an exploding bullet, which could not have been caused by ammunition of the kind Oswald was alleged to have used, thereby exonerating him." -- James H. Fetzer

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/16-smoking-guns-or-16-misfires.html

In short, Dr. Fetzer and all other conspiracy theorists who have advanced similar theories about Oswald's rifle and bullets do not have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

Enough said.

So is your opinion, Oswald used different types of ammunition in his rifle? One bullet which travelled unscathed through JFK back throat, Connally's back, chest, wrist and thigh, yet the bullet which hit The President in the head exploded inside his skull.

Just as a matter of interest,where in the above statement by Edgewood, does it say that only the Mannlicher rifle, allegedly owned by Oswald, could have done the same?

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So is your opinion, Oswald used different types of ammunition in his rifle? One bullet which travelled unscathed through JFK back throat, Connally's back, chest, wrist and thigh, yet the bullet which hit The President in the head exploded inside his skull[?]

Why would I believe something dumb like that?

And why do CTers always ignore all the various tests done by different people over the years that prove that a Carcano bullet can and will behave just like the two bullets behaved that hit JFK's body on 11/22/63?

From John Lattimer's book.....

"This bullet [a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano missile like CE399] can penetrate four feet of solid wood or three pine telephone poles side by side and come out looking completely undeformed. On the other hand, if it is fired into the thick bone of the back of a human skull, the jacket and core of the bullet will separate, releasing a myriad of additional fragments of many different sizes." -- Dr. John K. Lattimer; Page 277 of "Kennedy And Lincoln" [illustration from the book below]

FromJohnLattimersBook--BulletFragme.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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CE 399 is alleged to have caused the 7 non-fatal wounds to the President and Governor Connally. Included among these non-fatal wounds is the shattered radius bone of the Governor. The human radius bone is quite a bit denser than almost every other bone in the human body. If I'm not mistaken it is denser that the bone on the back of the skull, as well.

Therefore, even according to your own witness, Lattimer, CE 399 should have behaved differently than it did upon impact with just one of the seven points. Lattimer, when describing the expected result of a 6.5 mm Manlicher round being fired into thick bone, said: "...the jacket and core of the bullet will separate, releasing a myriad of additional fragments of many different sizes."

Yet, CE 399 is pristine.

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Greg,

The difference, as you should know quite well, is the SPEED at which CE399 was travelling when it struck Connally's wrist. Why do CTers constantly avoid the critical "Bullet Speed" issue when discussing the SBT?

Bullet 399 had been severely slowed down by the time it hit JBC's wrist and everybody knows it. And a bullet that has lost velocity has also lost its capability to become more severely deformed. Hence, CE399 remained intact. And so did the 6.5 Carcano bullet pictured below, which is a bullet that was fired into a human wrist at 1100 feet per second by Dr. Martin Fackler in 1992. It's in perfect shape--and this bullet broke a wrist bone....

Fackler-Bullet.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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If it lost its velocity, and its ability to deform itself, would it also not lose its ability to shatter the radius bone?

Many Colt .45 semi-automatic pistol bullets have a muzzle velocity of around 1100 fps. Do you really mean to tell me that firing a .45 at point blank range into a human radius bone will not deform the bullet?

P.S.

Fackler was almost as big a xxxx as Lattimer.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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Fackler was almost as big a xxxx as Lattimer.

Great. Another xxxx added to Prudhomme's never-ending list of liars.

Quoting Fackler himself concerning his bullet test:

"The bullet actually made a slightly greater hole than the one in Governor Connally's wrist. That's because the experiment bullet was actually going a little faster than the 900 feet [per second] that CE399 was travelling. The test bullet was non-deformed. It was not flattened in the least and had nowhere near the damage of CE399."

[End Quote.]

Fackler made those statements about his bullet test on August 10, 1992, during the American Bar Association's mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edited by David Von Pein

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I don't think the question is whether the Manlicher Carcano could kill JFK and wound Connolly- I think it is whether LHO or any other shooter could have killed JFK and wound Connolly with this rifle from the 6th floor of the Texas book depositry bldg. This excerpt from a book by Michael T. Griffith appears to cast serious doubt that the Manlicher Carcano was the murder weapon:

The WC's own rifle tests were very revealing: The commission hired three Master-rated riflemen to attempt to duplicate Oswald's alleged shooting feat. The three Master-rated shooters who participated in that test fired 18 rounds while using the scope and three rounds while using the iron sights. They used the alleged murder weapon, the Mannlicher-Carcano that was traced to Lee Harvey Oswald. Tellingly, they missed the head and neck area of the target board silhouettes 18 out of 18 times when they used the scope, and 2 out of 3 times when they used the iron sights. In other words, they missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times. Several of their misses were far apart on the boards. Some of their shots missed the silhouettes entirely. It's revealing that they shot so poorly even though they were allowed to take as long as they wanted for the first shot, even though two of them took longer than 6 seconds to fire, even though they were only firing from 30 feet up, and even though they were shooting at stationary--yes, stationary--target boards.

The three riflemen in the test were named Miller, Hendrix, and Staley. (Their first names were never given.) In the first series, Miller took 4.6 seconds to fire three shots, Staley took 6.75 seconds, and Hendrix took 8.25 seconds. In the next series, Miller took 5.15 seconds, Staley took 6.45 seconds, and Hendrix took 7 seconds. It bears repeating that Oswald would have had only one attempt, only one series. Oswald supposedly scored two hits out of three shots, yet Miller, Hendrix, and Staley—all Master-rated riflemen—missed the head and neck area of the target silhouettes 20 out of 21 times.

The impossibility of Oswald's alleged shooting feat was what led former Marine sniper Craig Roberts to reject the lone-gunman theory. Roberts explains as he recounts the first time he visited the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository:

I turned my attention to the window in the southeast corner--the infamous Sniper's Nest. . . . I immediately felt like I had been hit with a sledge hammer. The word that came to mind at what I saw as I looked down through the window to Elm Street and the kill zone was: Impossible!

I knew instantly that Oswald could not have done it. . . . The reason I knew that Oswald could not have done it, was that I could not have done it. (Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza, p. 5)

Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock,

Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. (Kill Zone, pp. 89-90)

A Valid “Oswald” Rifle Test

As mentioned, no rifle test has ever included all of the factors under which Oswald would have fired. What would, therefore, constitute a valid "Oswald" rifle test? What would a test need to include in order to qualify as a genuine simulation of Oswald's alleged shooting feat? Such a test would include the following conditions:

* The riflemen cannot have scored above the level of "Sharpshooter" in the Marines (or in the Army).

* The riflemen must have little target practice during the forty days prior to the test.

* The riflemen must have been known to be somewhat uncoordinated while in the Marines (or in the Army).

* The riflemen cannot have any "practice shots" on the day of the test.

* The riflemen must use the alleged murder weapon itself, or another Carcano with a difficult bolt and an odd trigger pull.

* If a different Carcano is used, it must be established, by expert shooters who fire the rifle just to see how fast it can be operated (with or without minimal accuracy), that the weapon cannot be fired faster than 2.3 seconds per shot.

* The target silhouette must be mounted on a car.

* The car carrying the target must be the same size and shape as Kennedy's limousine.

* There must be a tree that is the same size as the oak tree in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63 and that is in the same position in relation to the window and the road on which the target car is moving.

* The riflemen must fire from a window that is open by no more than 15 inches.

* The window from which the riflemen shoot must have two pipes to its left on the inside. These pipes must be positioned so that they inhibit the riflemen from firing markedly to their right. To get an idea of the degree to which the pipes would have inhibited a sharply rightward shot, see Jim Marrs, Crossfire, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1989, seventh photo page, and Robert Groden, The Killing of a President, New York: Viking Studio Books, 1993, p. 125; cf. Harrison Livingstone, Killing the Truth, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1993, second page of second photo set.)

* The riflemen must fire from an elevation of 60 feet.

* The riflemen must score at least two hits out of three shots in less than 6 seconds on their first attempt.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, then they must so misaim their first shot that they completely miss the target car.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, not only must they completely miss the target car with their initial shot, but they must also score at least two hits out of their next two shots on their first attempt.

* If the riflemen are given 8.4 seconds to fire, they cannot deliberately miss the entire target car with their first shot (or with any shot, for that matter), but must miss the whole car without trying to do so.

* The target car must travel the same speeds that the limousine was traveling, and at the appropriate points, from frames 140-313 of the Zapruder film.

No "Oswald" rifle test has ever included all of these conditions. On this basis alone it can be said that no rifleman, no matter how skilled, has ever duplicated Oswald's supposed shooting feat.

The conditions listed above are entirely factual and will not be disputed by anyone familiar with the assassination. Personally, I would add the following two factors, which, though supported by good evidence, are disputed by lone-gunman theorists:

* The riflemen must have a shield of boxes behind them that allows them no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel and fire. (Photos of the supposed sniper's nest show that a gunman would have had no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel.)

* The riflemen must fire two of their shots in no more than 1.5 seconds. (Numerous witnesses, from all over the plaza, said that two of the shots came so closely together that they were almost simultaneous. Some witnesses even said they sounded like a single burst from an automatic rifle.)

In closing, I quote from an internal Warren Commission memo that was written by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler. Liebeler was commenting on the various rifle tests that were done for the Commission, on the marksmen who took part in them, and on the way in which those tests were being cited as "evidence" that Oswald could have done the shooting:

The fact is that most of the experts were much more proficient with a rifle than Oswald could ever be expected to be, and the record indicates that fact. . . . To put it bluntly, that sort of selection from the record could seriously affect the integrity and credibility of the entire report. . . . [These] conclusions will never be accepted by critical persons anyway. (James DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed, Sheridan Square Press, 1992, p. 106; 11 HSCA 231-232)

*****************************************************

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds a Master’s degree in Theology from The Catholic Distance University, a Graduate Certificate in Ancient and Classical History from American Military University, a Bachelor’s degree in Liberal Arts from Excelsior College, and two Associate in Applied Science degrees from the Community College of the Air Force. He also holds an Advanced Certificate of Civil War Studies and a Certificate of Civil War Studies from Carroll College. He is a graduate in Arabic and Hebrew of the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical Training School in San Angelo, Texas. In addition, he has completed Advanced Hebrew programs at Haifa University in Israel and at the Spiro Institute in London, England. He is the author of five books on Mormonism and ancient texts, including How Firm A Foundation, A Ready Reply, and One Lord, One Faith. He is also the author of a book on the JFK assassination titled Compelling Evidence (JFK Lancer, 1996).

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Great. Another xxxx added to Prudhomme's never-ending list of liars.

Quoting Fackler himself concerning his bullet test:

"The bullet actually made a slightly greater hole than the one in Governor Connally's wrist. That's because the experiment bullet was actually going a little faster than the 900 feet [per second] that CE399 was travelling. The test bullet was non-deformed. It was not flattened in the least and had nowhere near the damage of CE399."

[End Quote.]

Fackler made those statements about his bullet test on August 10, 1992, during the American Bar Association's mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald.

And how do we know the bullet was only going 900 fps when it hit Connally's wrist?

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And how do we know the bullet was only going 900 fps when it hit Connally's wrist?

See pages 118 and 144 of Larry Sturdivan's 2005 book, "The JFK Myths".

Sturdivan, a wound ballistics expert and researcher, tells us on those pages that his research indicates the bullet (CE399) struck Governor Connally's right wrist at a velocity of only 500 feet per second (plus or minus 100 fps), and a bullet will not suffer any deformation if it is travelling less than 1400 to 1700 fps when it strikes bone (depending on whether the bullet is travelling "point first" or "sideways").

So, according to Sturdivan's figures, CE399 could have hit John Connally's wrist at a speed of 1399 feet per second and the bullet still would not have been deformed.

Should we now add wound ballistics expert Larry M. Sturdivan to your growing list of "liars", Mr. Prudhomme?

Edited by David Von Pein

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So you are saying a bullet travelling less than 1400 to 1700 fps will not deform when it hits a bone??? You and Sturdivan are full of crap.

Pistol bullets have an average muzzle velocity of around 1000 fps, and they most DEFINITELY deform when they hit bone.

Are you saying Carcano bullets are.......Magic? :idea

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Think of it, Dave. The Carcano bullets had a muzzle velocity of 2165 fps, according to SA Robert Frazier, who test fired C2766. At 88 yards, according to this ballistic calculator

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

this bullet would have slowed to 1935 fps, a mere 235 fps faster than the velocity (1700 fps) at which you and your buddy Sturdivan claim a Carcano bullet will not deform when it strikes bone. Yet, at 1935 fps, a Carcano bullet not only deformed when it struck JFK's skull, it blew up like a grenade.

See why anyone with any firearms knowledge at all believes you and Sturdivan are full of crap?

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