Who supports/promotes the shills?

[Kenneth Drew]

Yes, Ray. Of course I believe Frazier on that "No Lunch Bag" point.

And you believe the accused double-murderer instead, right?

So who left the bag with chicken bones and the coke in the sniper's nest?

[David Von Pein]

And we've all got to keep that balance between "chips-fall free expression" and responses "in a calm and polite way." Otherwise we're YouTube.

I can sure agree with you on that, David. The "YouTube Comment" world is almost like a completely different universe. People say things there that I doubt they'd say to their worst enemy on any given day--ever. But for some crazy reason, I guess when people make comments on YouTube, they decide that all rules for decorum and decency have to be thrown out the window.

It's really a remarkale phenomenon at times. And I'm in a position to notice it more than other people might, since I allow comments without moderation on my JFK channel. But if I see certain words in any comments, I reach for the delete button asap. The CTers seem to like to gather at YouTube---for JFK stuff and my 9/11 videos too. The 9/11 gutter talk is even worse than the JFK talk. (Hard as that might be to believe.)

But even with all the filth and "Von Pein is a shill and CIA agent" crap I see every day at YouTube, I should also point out that there are some very nice and non-offensive comments made quite often too. But the good ones are far outdistanced by the trash talkers.

Edited June 22, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

Keep blaming everybody but Oswald, Ray. You'll surely arrive at the truth by doing that.

But you don't have that 'freedom' David? To arrive at the 'truth'?

[David Von Pein]

You didn't read my article about the bones very well, did you Ken?.....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/03/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-914.html

------------

Excerpts....

TONY FRATINI SAID:

BRW [bonnie Ray Williams] was snacking on his chicken lunch and drinking a soda pop within the SN [sniper's Nest].

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Dead wrong. Why are you making this stuff up about Bonnie Ray?

TONY FRATINI SAID:

How do you think the assassin got BRW to "vacate" the SN?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No need for it, because BRW was never INSIDE the SN at any time on 11/22/63. And there's no testimony to that effect from BR Williams at all. So why did you say it?

COLIN CROW SAID:

The consolidated evidence indicates BRW lied and spent time before vacating the SN leaving his chicken sandwich unfinished.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Beautiful. One more "xxxx" to add to a CTer's list. What a surprise. Everybody's a xxxx except Lee Harvey.

COLIN CROW SAID:

Who moved the chicken twice lunch, David? If BRW is truthful it goes from the two wheeler to the SN and back to the two wheeler.

BRW did not vacate his position until just a few minutes before the shots. Why not take his uneaten chicken with him?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right AT or IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found. There's also confusion over the FIFTH or SIXTH floor for the chicken remnants, as Tom Alyea and Gerald Hill discuss in this 1993 video....

[Can't Embed a Blogger Video. Sorry.]

TONY FRATINI SAID:

Here we go - now DVP is moving the chicken lunch sack and the chicken bones! We know that [Gerald] Hill stuck his head out of the correct floor with the lunch sack/piece of chicken in his hand. It was Hill who initially moved the evidence from the boxes behind the SN.

[Quoting Jim Ewell's words as they appear in Larry Sneed's book] "No More Silence"....

"Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff."

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm not "moving" the chicken bones to the fifth floor. Tom Alyea does that in that 1993 video. He's certain there were bones on the fifth floor. And maybe there were. I'm not sure.

But Bonnie Ray certainly never said he left any bones on any boxes....

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.

Also....

From Vince Bugliosi's book....

"During a search of the sixth floor after the assassination, a detective for the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police Department found a lunch bag with chicken bones, a piece of waxed paper, and a little piece of Fritos in it in front of the “third” double-window over from the southeasternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. He also found a Dr. Pepper bottle nearby. (7 H 146, WCT Robert Lee Studebaker; CD 1245, p.84, FBI interview of Robert Studebaker on May 29, 1964)

Since Bonnie Williams had chicken, Fritos, and a Dr. Pepper for lunch at that exact place, that should have been the end of it. Lieutenant J. C. Day dusted the Dr. Pepper bottle for fingerprints, and no prints of Oswald’s were found. When Day later found out the food and drink had belonged to Williams, he decided the lunch bag and Dr. Pepper bottle had no value to the case and threw the sack and bottle away. (CD 1245, p.83)

Not so fast, said conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher, who said that since Day “saw no need to check the empty bottle for fingerprints other than Oswald’s, we will never know if fingerprints were on the bottle, or whose they were.” And even though Studebaker, whose job it was to search the sixth floor, saw the food and drink next to the third double-window over, and several other witnesses said they saw them in the same place (e.g., 6 H 330–331, WCT William H. Shelley), and Williams himself said that’s where he ate his lunch, Meagher proceeded to cite other witnesses who said they saw food elsewhere, for example, Luke Mooney (3 H 288–289), who said he saw a piece of chicken on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest. (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, pp.39–41)

Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president?

I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

-- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 23 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"

[...]

And when it comes to Bonnie Ray Williams' testimony in front of the Warren Commission, I really can't see why he would feel any need to want to start making up stories and telling lies about his exact whereabouts on 11/22/63 --- because it wasn't Bonnie Ray's rifle that was found in the Book Depository. And Bonnie Ray's prints weren't found all over the interior of the Sniper's Nest and on a certain empty brown paper bag in that same Nest.

And Bonnie Ray is certainly cleared as being a GUNMAN in the assassination, because we know he was photographed on the FIFTH FLOOR by Tom Dillard within seconds of the shots being fired at JFK. So Dillard's photo clears Williams in that respect (as an actual participant as a GUNMAN, that is).

And Bonnie Ray also knows that he's got two "alibi" witnesses -- Harold Norman and James Jarman -- who were both with Williams on the fifth floor at the exact time of the assassination. So why does Bonnie Ray Williams NEED to lie---about anything? IMO, he didn't NEED to lie at all. Hence, it's my opinion he did not lie in his testimony.

And even if Bonnie Ray DID leave a chicken bone on top of one of the boxes that surrounded Oswald's Sniper's Nest, I can't really see why that fact is critical when it comes to trying to solve the Kennedy assassination. I mean, even if Bonnie Ray was walking around the sixth floor and had walked right past Oswald's Sniper's Nest (without going INTO the "Nest", which I do not think he did at any time that day), and if Williams had deposited a chicken bone on top of a box near the Nest --- what would that prove?

We already KNOW that Bonnie Ray was up there on the sixth floor eating his lunch fairly near Oswald's sniper's perch at a point in time that was fairly close to the time of the assassination itself. And we know, via the Dillard picture, that Bonnie Ray was not actually ON THE SIXTH FLOOR at the time of the assassination. He moved down to the fifth floor to join his co-workers Norman and Jarman shortly before shots were fired at the President.

So a leftover chicken bone sitting on top of a box near the assassin's lair is pretty much meaningless in the long run, in my opinion.

I think, once again, that some conspiracy theorists are attempting to make something that is totally insignicant seem vitally important. In this instance, they seem to be creating a six-course chicken dinner out of a single leftover poultry bone.

COLIN CROW SAID:

It is clear you are unaware of the timelines witnesses are describing. This is the simple reason why a black man may not have been observed by Brennan for example. He did not take up position on the wall until about 12:25 or so. By this time, Rowland's attention was elsewhere and the man had likely left.

[...]

TONY FRATINI SAID:

If you read [bonnie Ray Williams'] testimony, you will see that he described initially being in the SN and that he moved on his way out to get to the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS -- "First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Absolute nonsense. Williams wasn't describing being in the Sniper's Nest in that testimony. He was talking about leaning back on some of the boxes that we can easily see are stacked up all around the area where Bonnie Ray's Dr. Pepper bottle and the two-wheeler were located. There are boxes everywhere....

COLIN CROW SAID:

Either he [bonnie Ray Williams] lied,

Or

The assassin had a chicken lunch too that he didn't finish.....that disappeared entirely under the noses of numerous police officers (maybe they were hungry),

Or

The assassin grabbed BRW's lunch after he left......then someone moved it back to the two wheeler,

Or

Feel free to [provide] another possibility, David.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think anyone lied. Some people were simply mistaken. Like Edwards and Fischer when they said FIFTH floor in their affidavits when they really meant SIXTH floor.

But the theory I'm hearing in this discussion means you guys need to have Bonnie Ray Williams lying his head off, plus various police officers lying, and the Warren Commission too. It's just plain silly (not to mention totally unnecessary on ANYONE'S behalf)....and surely you know it's silly. But you insist on making mountains out of nothingness anyway. It's in a CTer's blood. You can't help it, I guess.

You guys seem to think the ONLY place where BRW could have possibly leaned back on some boxes on the entire sixth floor was INSIDE the Sniper's Nest itself----even though Williams is clear he was NOT that far EAST on the building's sixth floor when he ate his lunch. But you'll ignore the person who is obviously the best witness to say where he ate lunch----Bonnie Ray himself.

Plus, what makes you think Williams couldn't have MOVED the two-wheeler truck just a little bit (one way or the other)? It was a MOVABLE object, you know. Just as a piece of chicken is MOVABLE.

And a piece of chicken that inexplicably goes from one part of the sixth floor to another (and I cannot explain it; I have no idea why there is the conflicting testimony regarding the chicken bones) is not going to suddenly ERASE the physical evidence of Oswald's guilt. Nor will that piece of chicken (or its bones) erase the known incriminating ACTIONS of one Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63.

Oswald's guilt in both the Kennedy and Tippit murders is rock-solid and will survive the avalanche of speculative nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists about chicken bones and the unsupportable allegations about Bonnie Ray Williams being a xxxx, etc.

Nobody in this discussion has done anything that diminishes Lee Oswald's guilty status----even if the chicken bones WERE moved around on the sixth floor by somebody (anybody!) on November 22nd.

TONY FRATINI SAID:

BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Bingo - do you want me to draw you a schematic?

If he was at the two wheeler - he could see all the way to the SN, David.

He couldn't see anything to the EAST because he was at the SOUTHEAST corner.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You actually think a person who is ALREADY AS FAR EAST AS HE COULD POSSIBLY BE on the sixth floor would say something like this?....

"I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."

Hilarious!

The above quote by Bonnie Ray Williams quite obviously indicates that the one place on the sixth floor where he definitely WAS NOT located was the Sniper's Nest (i.e., the far southeast corner).

Also....

For Tony....

One of the photos you've been using [this one] comes from the Secret Service re-enactment film. And I believe that film was produced on November 27th, five days after the assassination.

Therefore, what makes you think the box stacks were EXACTLY the same configuration on Nov. 27 as they were when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on Nov. 22? Couldn't they possibly be in a slightly different location five days later?

In addition, the Secret Service agent in that photo (i.e., still frame) is STANDING UP. He's not sitting down or squatting as LHO probably was doing when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on 11/22. And when the SS agent (John Howlett) sits down, he is completely out of sight of anyone else to the west of his Sniper's Nest position on the sixth floor---as Howlett himself demonstrates in the SS film here (2nd video on the page; about 11 minutes into the film)....

http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/01/1963-secret-service-film.html

TONY FRATINI SAID:

You cannot place LHO within the SN, like Colin and I have done with BRW using testimony and physical evidence.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let me pinch myself to see if I really read the above hunk of pure nonsense....

You're actually implying that LNers like myself have NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE at all to tie Oswald to the assassination or to the "Sniper's Nest" on the sixth floor of the Book Depository?

(Let me pinch myself yet again, because such a statement is just ludicrous.)

OSWALD'S rifle.

OSWALD'S shells. (From his gun, I mean.)

OSWALD'S bullet fragments IN THE LIMOUSINE.

OSWALD'S prints all over the Nest where we know THE KILLER WAS SHOOTING FROM.

OSWALD'S prints on the paper bag (CE142). Like it or not, CE142 is an official piece of evidence, seen by multiple policemen in the SN, and it is irrevocably tied to Oswald via his 2 prints. Pretend it's a fake, but LNers will keep reminding CTers it exists all the same.

And there's, of course, Howard Brennan, who supplied "witness identification" evidence of Oswald's guilt. I know CTers hate Brennan's Johnny-come-lately positive IDing of LHO, but that's in the record too. So you'll have to deal with it (and toss it aside), much the same way I have to deal with Luke Mooney's account of seeing the chicken bones on a SN box. So, life ain't always easy, is it? For LNers or CTers.

But to imply that you have somehow destroyed the case against Oswald (or even PART of that case) by way of the "Chicken Bones" topic and/or BRW's testimony and/or Arnold Rowland's timeline of events is just laughable, Tony.

~~pinch, pinch~~

TONY FRATINI SAID:

The real issue, as I see it Dave, is that you don't actually believe any response or research from anyone who disputes the findings of the WC. Isn't that correct? You have already prejudged and predetermined people on the basis of their beliefs? So in essence - EVERYONE here who doesn't believe in the WC findings on LHO's guilt on assassinating JFK is automatically wrong and hence must be a "kook"? Right?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Tony,

After looking at the evidence that hangs Oswald 10 times over (or more), I believe that the "CTers" on almost all Internet forums are not evaluating the evidence properly or fairly---because that evidence DOES prove Lee Oswald's guilt in TWO murders (IMO). Therefore, anyone who says they think Oswald didn't shoot anybody on 11/22/63 is just flat-out wrong. (Again, "IMO".)

Five years ago, another LNer at another forum summed things up very succinctly and accurately....

"There is almost as much evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy as there is evidence that Kennedy got shot." -- Bud; July 21, 2010

David Von Pein

March 2015

April 2015

Edited June 22, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

The 10 items as they are presented are NOT, even in Sum Total, valuable enough to imply his guilt, because, AS IN ANY LEGAL PROCEEDING, they are individually open to too many alternate explanations.

And when the items of a Sum Total are individually weakened, the Sum Total loses its value. Period.

I couldn't disagree more strongly, Glenn. (As usual.)

Let's again have a look at my list of the "Out Of The Ordinary" things done by Lee Oswald on Nov. 21 and 22 (and it's beyond belief how anyone can say #9 is "weak", given the various types of proof that indicate Oswald was guilty of that murder)....

1.) The unusual Thursday trip to Irving.

2.) The "paper bag" and the provable lies associated with that bag that LHO told. ("Curtain rods" anyone?)

3.) Not carrying any lunch at all with him to work on Nov. 22nd.

4.) Leaving work at 12:33 PM (just three minutes after the assassination).

5.) Not waiting for his usual bus at the corner of Elm & Houston after departing the TSBD at 12:33 on 11/22.

6.) Being in such a hurry after getting on McWatters' bus that he felt he just had to get off the bus.

7.) Taking a cab to his roominghouse. (And there's not another provable instance of the penny-pinching Oswald ever spending money to take a cab while within the borders of the USA.)

8.) Rushing in and out of his roominghouse on 11/22.

9.) Murdering a policeman on Tenth Street.

10.) Waving a gun around in the theater while shouting out some things that can only be looked upon as things being uttered by a person with a guilty state of mind.

1.) The unusual Thursday trip to Irving.

Making a trip to see your wife during the week is evidence of murder?

2.) The "paper bag" and the provable lies associated with that bag that LHO told. ("Curtain rods" anyone?)

There was no paper bag. That was invented because Frazier was being accused and he made up something to point to someone else. We all know that.

3.) Not carrying any lunch at all with him to work on Nov. 22nd.

So, if you claim LHO didn't carry a lunch, and you claim there was remnants of a lunch in snipers nest. Who ate it?

4.) Leaving work at 12:33 PM (just three minutes after the assassination).

You don't have any evidence of when or how LHO left the TSBD. There is certainly plenty of evidence that others left also. Why not blame them?

5.) Not waiting for his usual bus at the corner of Elm & Houston after departing the TSBD at 12:33 on 11/22.

You don't know what bus he took. You don't know if he 'waited' or not. Which bus was his usual bus for 11/22? is that 'every' 11/22 or just this one?

6.) Being in such a hurry after getting on McWatters' bus that he felt he just had to get off the bus.

Only one of the possible scenarios, why did you pick this option? Does it suit your fantasies better?

7.) Taking a cab to his roominghouse. (And there's not another provable instance of the penny-pinching Oswald ever spending money to take a cab while within the borders of the USA.)

He didn't take a cab to his roominghouse. Tell us 'where' he really took it to? Where did he leave the cab?

8.) Rushing in and out of his roominghouse on 11/22.

Have you ever rushed into or out of your house? Is that proof that you murdered someone?

9.) Murdering a policeman on Tenth Street.

You can leave this one out. Absolutely no proof at all. In fact, he has a witness that he was at the Texas theatre when JDT was shot.

10.) Waving a gun around in the theater while shouting out some things that can only be looked upon as things being uttered by a person with a guilty state of mind.

Your proof that he 'waved a gun around' was a recording made of what he said and the context? Who recorded these statements? Who was the other person taken by the police from the Texas theatre that afternoon? Did he also wave a gun around and was he recorded 'shouting' out things? Was he also charged with killing JFK? Was JFK near the Texas theatre when he was shot?

If I were trying to be convincing, I could make up a better scenario than this one. You need new writers DVP.

[Kenneth Drew]

You didn't read my article about the bones very well, did you Ken?.....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/03/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-914.html

------------

Excerpts....

TONY FRATINI SAID:

BRW [bonnie Ray Williams] was snacking on his chicken lunch and drinking a soda pop within the SN [sniper's Nest].

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Dead wrong. Why are you making this stuff up about Bonnie Ray?

TONY FRATINI SAID:

How do you think the assassin got BRW to "vacate" the SN?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No need for it, because BRW was never INSIDE the SN at any time on 11/22/63. And there's no testimony to that effect from BR Williams at all. So why did you say it?

COLIN CROW SAID:

The consolidated evidence indicates BRW lied and spent time before vacating the SN leaving his chicken sandwich unfinished.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Beautiful. One more "xxxx" to add to a CTer's list. What a surprise. Everybody's a xxxx except Lee Harvey.

COLIN CROW SAID:

Who moved the chicken twice lunch, David? If BRW is truthful it goes from the two wheeler to the SN and back to the two wheeler.

BRW did not vacate his position until just a few minutes before the shots. Why not take his uneaten chicken with him?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right AT or IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found. There's also confusion over the FIFTH or SIXTH floor for the chicken remnants, as Tom Alyea and Gerald Hill discuss in this 1993 video....

[Can't Embed a Blogger Video. Sorry.]

TONY FRATINI SAID:

Here we go - now DVP is moving the chicken lunch sack and the chicken bones! We know that [Gerald] Hill stuck his head out of the correct floor with the lunch sack/piece of chicken in his hand. It was Hill who initially moved the evidence from the boxes behind the SN.

[Quoting Jim Ewell's words as they appear in Larry Sneed's book] "No More Silence"....

"Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff."

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm not "moving" the chicken bones to the fifth floor. Tom Alyea does that in that 1993 video. He's certain there were bones on the fifth floor. And maybe there were. I'm not sure.

But Bonnie Ray certainly never said he left any bones on any boxes....

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.

Also....

From Vince Bugliosi's book....

"During a search of the sixth floor after the assassination, a detective for the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police Department found a lunch bag with chicken bones, a piece of waxed paper, and a little piece of Fritos in it in front of the “third” double-window over from the southeasternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. He also found a Dr. Pepper bottle nearby. (7 H 146, WCT Robert Lee Studebaker; CD 1245, p.84, FBI interview of Robert Studebaker on May 29, 1964)

Since Bonnie Williams had chicken, Fritos, and a Dr. Pepper for lunch at that exact place, that should have been the end of it. Lieutenant J. C. Day dusted the Dr. Pepper bottle for fingerprints, and no prints of Oswald’s were found. When Day later found out the food and drink had belonged to Williams, he decided the lunch bag and Dr. Pepper bottle had no value to the case and threw the sack and bottle away. (CD 1245, p.83)

Not so fast, said conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher, who said that since Day “saw no need to check the empty bottle for fingerprints other than Oswald’s, we will never know if fingerprints were on the bottle, or whose they were.” And even though Studebaker, whose job it was to search the sixth floor, saw the food and drink next to the third double-window over, and several other witnesses said they saw them in the same place (e.g., 6 H 330–331, WCT William H. Shelley), and Williams himself said that’s where he ate his lunch, Meagher proceeded to cite other witnesses who said they saw food elsewhere, for example, Luke Mooney (3 H 288–289), who said he saw a piece of chicken on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest. (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, pp.39–41)

Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president?

I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

-- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 23 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"

[...]

And when it comes to Bonnie Ray Williams' testimony in front of the Warren Commission, I really can't see why he would feel any need to want to start making up stories and telling lies about his exact whereabouts on 11/22/63 --- because it wasn't Bonnie Ray's rifle that was found in the Book Depository. And Bonnie Ray's prints weren't found all over the interior of the Sniper's Nest and on a certain empty brown paper bag in that same Nest.

And Bonnie Ray is certainly cleared as being a GUNMAN in the assassination, because we know he was photographed on the FIFTH FLOOR by Tom Dillard within seconds of the shots being fired at JFK. So Dillard's photo clears Williams in that respect (as an actual participant as a GUNMAN, that is).

And Bonnie Ray also knows that he's got two "alibi" witnesses -- Harold Norman and James Jarman -- who were both with Williams on the fifth floor at the exact time of the assassination. So why does Bonnie Ray Williams NEED to lie---about anything? IMO, he didn't NEED to lie at all. Hence, it's my opinion he did not lie in his testimony.

And even if Bonnie Ray DID leave a chicken bone on top of one of the boxes that surrounded Oswald's Sniper's Nest, I can't really see why that fact is critical when it comes to trying to solve the Kennedy assassination. I mean, even if Bonnie Ray was walking around the sixth floor and had walked right past Oswald's Sniper's Nest (without going INTO the "Nest", which I do not think he did at any time that day), and if Williams had deposited a chicken bone on top of a box near the Nest --- what would that prove?

We already KNOW that Bonnie Ray was up there on the sixth floor eating his lunch fairly near Oswald's sniper's perch at a point in time that was fairly close to the time of the assassination itself. And we know, via the Dillard picture, that Bonnie Ray was not actually ON THE SIXTH FLOOR at the time of the assassination. He moved down to the fifth floor to join his co-workers Norman and Jarman shortly before shots were fired at the President.

So a leftover chicken bone sitting on top of a box near the assassin's lair is pretty much meaningless in the long run, in my opinion.

I think, once again, that some conspiracy theorists are attempting to make something that is totally insignicant seem vitally important. In this instance, they seem to be creating a six-course chicken dinner out of a single leftover poultry bone.

COLIN CROW SAID:

It is clear you are unaware of the timelines witnesses are describing. This is the simple reason why a black man may not have been observed by Brennan for example. He did not take up position on the wall until about 12:25 or so. By this time, Rowland's attention was elsewhere and the man had likely left.

[...]

TONY FRATINI SAID:

If you read [bonnie Ray Williams'] testimony, you will see that he described initially being in the SN and that he moved on his way out to get to the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS -- "First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Absolute nonsense. Williams wasn't describing being in the Sniper's Nest in that testimony. He was talking about leaning back on some of the boxes that we can easily see are stacked up all around the area where Bonnie Ray's Dr. Pepper bottle and the two-wheeler were located. There are boxes everywhere....

COLIN CROW SAID:

Either he [bonnie Ray Williams] lied,

Or

The assassin had a chicken lunch too that he didn't finish.....that disappeared entirely under the noses of numerous police officers (maybe they were hungry),

Or

The assassin grabbed BRW's lunch after he left......then someone moved it back to the two wheeler,

Or

Feel free to [provide] another possibility, David.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think anyone lied. Some people were simply mistaken. Like Edwards and Fischer when they said FIFTH floor in their affidavits when they really meant SIXTH floor.

But the theory I'm hearing in this discussion means you guys need to have Bonnie Ray Williams lying his head off, plus various police officers lying, and the Warren Commission too. It's just plain silly (not to mention totally unnecessary on ANYONE'S behalf)....and surely you know it's silly. But you insist on making mountains out of nothingness anyway. It's in a CTer's blood. You can't help it, I guess.

You guys seem to think the ONLY place where BRW could have possibly leaned back on some boxes on the entire sixth floor was INSIDE the Sniper's Nest itself----even though Williams is clear he was NOT that far EAST on the building's sixth floor when he ate his lunch. But you'll ignore the person who is obviously the best witness to say where he ate lunch----Bonnie Ray himself.

Plus, what makes you think Williams couldn't have MOVED the two-wheeler truck just a little bit (one way or the other)? It was a MOVABLE object, you know. Just as a piece of chicken is MOVABLE.

And a piece of chicken that inexplicably goes from one part of the sixth floor to another (and I cannot explain it; I have no idea why there is the conflicting testimony regarding the chicken bones) is not going to suddenly ERASE the physical evidence of Oswald's guilt. Nor will that piece of chicken (or its bones) erase the known incriminating ACTIONS of one Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63.

Oswald's guilt in both the Kennedy and Tippit murders is rock-solid and will survive the avalanche of speculative nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists about chicken bones and the unsupportable allegations about Bonnie Ray Williams being a xxxx, etc.

Nobody in this discussion has done anything that diminishes Lee Oswald's guilty status----even if the chicken bones WERE moved around on the sixth floor by somebody (anybody!) on November 22nd.

TONY FRATINI SAID:

BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Bingo - do you want me to draw you a schematic?

If he was at the two wheeler - he could see all the way to the SN, David.

He couldn't see anything to the EAST because he was at the SOUTHEAST corner.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You actually think a person who is ALREADY AS FAR EAST AS HE COULD POSSIBLY BE on the sixth floor would say something like this?....

"I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."

Hilarious!

The above quote by Bonnie Ray Williams quite obviously indicates that the one place on the sixth floor where he definitely WAS NOT located was the Sniper's Nest (i.e., the far southeast corner).

Also....

For Tony....

One of the photos you've been using [this one] comes from the Secret Service re-enactment film. And I believe that film was produced on November 27th, five days after the assassination.

Therefore, what makes you think the box stacks were EXACTLY the same configuration on Nov. 27 as they were when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on Nov. 22? Couldn't they possibly be in a slightly different location five days later?

In addition, the Secret Service agent in that photo (i.e., still frame) is STANDING UP. He's not sitting down or squatting as LHO probably was doing when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on 11/22. And when the SS agent (John Howlett) sits down, he is completely out of sight of anyone else to the west of his Sniper's Nest position on the sixth floor---as Howlett himself demonstrates in the SS film here (2nd video on the page; about 11 minutes into the film)....

http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/01/1963-secret-service-film.html

TONY FRATINI SAID:

You cannot place LHO within the SN, like Colin and I have done with BRW using testimony and physical evidence.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let me pinch myself to see if I really read the above hunk of pure nonsense....

You're actually implying that LNers like myself have NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE at all to tie Oswald to the assassination or to the "Sniper's Nest" on the sixth floor of the Book Depository?

(Let me pinch myself yet again, because such a statement is just ludicrous.)

OSWALD'S rifle.

OSWALD'S shells. (From his gun, I mean.)

OSWALD'S bullet fragments IN THE LIMOUSINE.

OSWALD'S prints all over the Nest where we know THE KILLER WAS SHOOTING FROM.

OSWALD'S prints on the paper bag (CE142). Like it or not, CE142 is an official piece of evidence, seen by multiple policemen in the SN, and it is irrevocably tied to Oswald via his 2 prints. Pretend it's a fake, but LNers will keep reminding CTers it exists all the same.

And there's, of course, Howard Brennan, who supplied "witness identification" evidence of Oswald's guilt. I know CTers hate Brennan's Johnny-come-lately positive IDing of LHO, but that's in the record too. So you'll have to deal with it (and toss it aside), much the same way I have to deal with Luke Mooney's account of seeing the chicken bones on a SN box. So, life ain't always easy, is it? For LNers or CTers.

But to imply that you have somehow destroyed the case against Oswald (or even PART of that case) by way of the "Chicken Bones" topic and/or BRW's testimony and/or Arnold Rowland's timeline of events is just laughable, Tony.

~~pinch, pinch~~

TONY FRATINI SAID:

The real issue, as I see it Dave, is that you don't actually believe any response or research from anyone who disputes the findings of the WC. Isn't that correct? You have already prejudged and predetermined people on the basis of their beliefs? So in essence - EVERYONE here who doesn't believe in the WC findings on LHO's guilt on assassinating JFK is automatically wrong and hence must be a "kook"? Right?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Tony,

After looking at the evidence that hangs Oswald 10 times over (or more), I believe that the "CTers" on almost all Internet forums are not evaluating the evidence properly or fairly---because that evidence DOES prove Lee Oswald's guilt in TWO murders (IMO). Therefore, anyone who says they think Oswald didn't shoot anybody on 11/22/63 is just flat-out wrong. (Again, "IMO".)

Five years ago, another LNer at another forum summed things up very succinctly and accurately....

"There is almost as much evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy as there is evidence that Kennedy got shot." -- Bud; July 21, 2010

David Von Pein

March 2015

April 2015

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found.

DVP, you have a very predictable modus operandi. Every time the evidence doesn't fit 'your' scenario, the person telling it was incorrect or lying or just misspoke.

Could it be DVP that is wrong?

Every since 11/22/63, the story has been told repeatedly that someone waiting in the sniper's nest, calmly eating a chicken lunch and left the remnants. Now here is 2015 you're decided that they were misstaken, that they actually ate the lunch somewhere else.

That's same modus operandi that the WC used. Did you learn from them?

[Kenneth Drew]

There were NEVER any fingerprints of LHO found anywhere, none. Only his palmprint which was planted on the rifle while he was in the morgue.

And yet, per Ken, it is **I** who puts "lies" on my website.

Pot....meet Kettle (aka: Kenny Drew).

The above quote by Ken D. is nothing but falsehoods.

Mind-boggling.

And yet, you can't tell us where LHO's fingerprints were found and who put them there and when they were found. We do know that none were found on any evidence until after LHO was dead and after the evidence had been to the FBI lab. None was ever produced in the FBI lab. Why was the rifle taken to the mortuary to visit LHO? Was it necessary to the production of a palm print?

And please link me to where I said you post 'lies' on your website.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Kenneth Drew]

You didn't read my article about the bones very well, did you Ken?.....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/03/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-914.html

------------

Excerpts....

TONY FRATINI SAID:

BRW [bonnie Ray Williams] was snacking on his chicken lunch and drinking a soda pop within the SN [sniper's Nest].

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Dead wrong. Why are you making this stuff up about Bonnie Ray?

TONY FRATINI SAID:

How do you think the assassin got BRW to "vacate" the SN?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

No need for it, because BRW was never INSIDE the SN at any time on 11/22/63. And there's no testimony to that effect from BR Williams at all. So why did you say it?

COLIN CROW SAID:

The consolidated evidence indicates BRW lied and spent time before vacating the SN leaving his chicken sandwich unfinished.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Beautiful. One more "xxxx" to add to a CTer's list. What a surprise. Everybody's a xxxx except Lee Harvey.

COLIN CROW SAID:

Who moved the chicken twice lunch, David? If BRW is truthful it goes from the two wheeler to the SN and back to the two wheeler.

BRW did not vacate his position until just a few minutes before the shots. Why not take his uneaten chicken with him?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I doubt there was ever any chicken bones right AT or IN the Sniper's Nest. Or on the SN boxes. The chicken bones and lunch sack and Dr. Pepper bottle were further WEST, where Bonnie Ray Williams said he ate lunch.

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found. There's also confusion over the FIFTH or SIXTH floor for the chicken remnants, as Tom Alyea and Gerald Hill discuss in this 1993 video....

[Can't Embed a Blogger Video. Sorry.]

TONY FRATINI SAID:

Here we go - now DVP is moving the chicken lunch sack and the chicken bones! We know that [Gerald] Hill stuck his head out of the correct floor with the lunch sack/piece of chicken in his hand. It was Hill who initially moved the evidence from the boxes behind the SN.

[Quoting Jim Ewell's words as they appear in Larry Sneed's book] "No More Silence"....

"Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff."

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I'm not "moving" the chicken bones to the fifth floor. Tom Alyea does that in that 1993 video. He's certain there were bones on the fifth floor. And maybe there were. I'm not sure.

But Bonnie Ray certainly never said he left any bones on any boxes....

Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.

Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.

Also....

From Vince Bugliosi's book....

"During a search of the sixth floor after the assassination, a detective for the Crime Scene Search Section of the Dallas Police Department found a lunch bag with chicken bones, a piece of waxed paper, and a little piece of Fritos in it in front of the “third” double-window over from the southeasternmost window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. He also found a Dr. Pepper bottle nearby. (7 H 146, WCT Robert Lee Studebaker; CD 1245, p.84, FBI interview of Robert Studebaker on May 29, 1964)

Since Bonnie Williams had chicken, Fritos, and a Dr. Pepper for lunch at that exact place, that should have been the end of it. Lieutenant J. C. Day dusted the Dr. Pepper bottle for fingerprints, and no prints of Oswald’s were found. When Day later found out the food and drink had belonged to Williams, he decided the lunch bag and Dr. Pepper bottle had no value to the case and threw the sack and bottle away. (CD 1245, p.83)

Not so fast, said conspiracy theorist Sylvia Meagher, who said that since Day “saw no need to check the empty bottle for fingerprints other than Oswald’s, we will never know if fingerprints were on the bottle, or whose they were.” And even though Studebaker, whose job it was to search the sixth floor, saw the food and drink next to the third double-window over, and several other witnesses said they saw them in the same place (e.g., 6 H 330–331, WCT William H. Shelley), and Williams himself said that’s where he ate his lunch, Meagher proceeded to cite other witnesses who said they saw food elsewhere, for example, Luke Mooney (3 H 288–289), who said he saw a piece of chicken on top of the boxes surrounding the sniper’s nest. (Meagher, Accessories after the Fact, pp.39–41)

Other than her and her colleagues’ insatiable passion for pointing out normal (not to them) inconsistencies in the recollections of witnesses, nowhere does Meagher tell her readers what the relevance of these inconsistencies was. Was it her point that Williams was lying, that the chicken eater was the assassin in the sniper’s nest (who wasn’t, Meagher would assure us, Oswald), or Williams was not lying, but the assassin in the sniper’s nest was also eating chicken while he waited to kill the president?

I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

-- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 23 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"

[...]

And when it comes to Bonnie Ray Williams' testimony in front of the Warren Commission, I really can't see why he would feel any need to want to start making up stories and telling lies about his exact whereabouts on 11/22/63 --- because it wasn't Bonnie Ray's rifle that was found in the Book Depository. And Bonnie Ray's prints weren't found all over the interior of the Sniper's Nest and on a certain empty brown paper bag in that same Nest.

And Bonnie Ray is certainly cleared as being a GUNMAN in the assassination, because we know he was photographed on the FIFTH FLOOR by Tom Dillard within seconds of the shots being fired at JFK. So Dillard's photo clears Williams in that respect (as an actual participant as a GUNMAN, that is).

And Bonnie Ray also knows that he's got two "alibi" witnesses -- Harold Norman and James Jarman -- who were both with Williams on the fifth floor at the exact time of the assassination. So why does Bonnie Ray Williams NEED to lie---about anything? IMO, he didn't NEED to lie at all. Hence, it's my opinion he did not lie in his testimony.

And even if Bonnie Ray DID leave a chicken bone on top of one of the boxes that surrounded Oswald's Sniper's Nest, I can't really see why that fact is critical when it comes to trying to solve the Kennedy assassination. I mean, even if Bonnie Ray was walking around the sixth floor and had walked right past Oswald's Sniper's Nest (without going INTO the "Nest", which I do not think he did at any time that day), and if Williams had deposited a chicken bone on top of a box near the Nest --- what would that prove?

We already KNOW that Bonnie Ray was up there on the sixth floor eating his lunch fairly near Oswald's sniper's perch at a point in time that was fairly close to the time of the assassination itself. And we know, via the Dillard picture, that Bonnie Ray was not actually ON THE SIXTH FLOOR at the time of the assassination. He moved down to the fifth floor to join his co-workers Norman and Jarman shortly before shots were fired at the President.

So a leftover chicken bone sitting on top of a box near the assassin's lair is pretty much meaningless in the long run, in my opinion.

I think, once again, that some conspiracy theorists are attempting to make something that is totally insignicant seem vitally important. In this instance, they seem to be creating a six-course chicken dinner out of a single leftover poultry bone.

COLIN CROW SAID:

It is clear you are unaware of the timelines witnesses are describing. This is the simple reason why a black man may not have been observed by Brennan for example. He did not take up position on the wall until about 12:25 or so. By this time, Rowland's attention was elsewhere and the man had likely left.

[...]

TONY FRATINI SAID:

If you read [bonnie Ray Williams'] testimony, you will see that he described initially being in the SN and that he moved on his way out to get to the fifth floor.

Mr. WILLIAMS -- "First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler."

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Absolute nonsense. Williams wasn't describing being in the Sniper's Nest in that testimony. He was talking about leaning back on some of the boxes that we can easily see are stacked up all around the area where Bonnie Ray's Dr. Pepper bottle and the two-wheeler were located. There are boxes everywhere....

COLIN CROW SAID:

Either he [bonnie Ray Williams] lied,

Or

The assassin had a chicken lunch too that he didn't finish.....that disappeared entirely under the noses of numerous police officers (maybe they were hungry),

Or

The assassin grabbed BRW's lunch after he left......then someone moved it back to the two wheeler,

Or

Feel free to [provide] another possibility, David.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't think anyone lied. Some people were simply mistaken. Like Edwards and Fischer when they said FIFTH floor in their affidavits when they really meant SIXTH floor.

But the theory I'm hearing in this discussion means you guys need to have Bonnie Ray Williams lying his head off, plus various police officers lying, and the Warren Commission too. It's just plain silly (not to mention totally unnecessary on ANYONE'S behalf)....and surely you know it's silly. But you insist on making mountains out of nothingness anyway. It's in a CTer's blood. You can't help it, I guess.

You guys seem to think the ONLY place where BRW could have possibly leaned back on some boxes on the entire sixth floor was INSIDE the Sniper's Nest itself----even though Williams is clear he was NOT that far EAST on the building's sixth floor when he ate his lunch. But you'll ignore the person who is obviously the best witness to say where he ate lunch----Bonnie Ray himself.

Plus, what makes you think Williams couldn't have MOVED the two-wheeler truck just a little bit (one way or the other)? It was a MOVABLE object, you know. Just as a piece of chicken is MOVABLE.

And a piece of chicken that inexplicably goes from one part of the sixth floor to another (and I cannot explain it; I have no idea why there is the conflicting testimony regarding the chicken bones) is not going to suddenly ERASE the physical evidence of Oswald's guilt. Nor will that piece of chicken (or its bones) erase the known incriminating ACTIONS of one Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63.

Oswald's guilt in both the Kennedy and Tippit murders is rock-solid and will survive the avalanche of speculative nonsense coming from conspiracy theorists about chicken bones and the unsupportable allegations about Bonnie Ray Williams being a xxxx, etc.

Nobody in this discussion has done anything that diminishes Lee Oswald's guilty status----even if the chicken bones WERE moved around on the sixth floor by somebody (anybody!) on November 22nd.

TONY FRATINI SAID:

BONNIE RAY WILLIAMS -- "Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.

Bingo - do you want me to draw you a schematic?

If he was at the two wheeler - he could see all the way to the SN, David.

He couldn't see anything to the EAST because he was at the SOUTHEAST corner.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You actually think a person who is ALREADY AS FAR EAST AS HE COULD POSSIBLY BE on the sixth floor would say something like this?....

"I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building."

Hilarious!

The above quote by Bonnie Ray Williams quite obviously indicates that the one place on the sixth floor where he definitely WAS NOT located was the Sniper's Nest (i.e., the far southeast corner).

Also....

For Tony....

One of the photos you've been using [this one] comes from the Secret Service re-enactment film. And I believe that film was produced on November 27th, five days after the assassination.

Therefore, what makes you think the box stacks were EXACTLY the same configuration on Nov. 27 as they were when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on Nov. 22? Couldn't they possibly be in a slightly different location five days later?

In addition, the Secret Service agent in that photo (i.e., still frame) is STANDING UP. He's not sitting down or squatting as LHO probably was doing when Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor on 11/22. And when the SS agent (John Howlett) sits down, he is completely out of sight of anyone else to the west of his Sniper's Nest position on the sixth floor---as Howlett himself demonstrates in the SS film here (2nd video on the page; about 11 minutes into the film)....

http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/01/1963-secret-service-film.html

TONY FRATINI SAID:

You cannot place LHO within the SN, like Colin and I have done with BRW using testimony and physical evidence.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let me pinch myself to see if I really read the above hunk of pure nonsense....

You're actually implying that LNers like myself have NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE at all to tie Oswald to the assassination or to the "Sniper's Nest" on the sixth floor of the Book Depository?

(Let me pinch myself yet again, because such a statement is just ludicrous.)

OSWALD'S rifle.

OSWALD'S shells. (From his gun, I mean.)

OSWALD'S bullet fragments IN THE LIMOUSINE.

OSWALD'S prints all over the Nest where we know THE KILLER WAS SHOOTING FROM.

OSWALD'S prints on the paper bag (CE142). Like it or not, CE142 is an official piece of evidence, seen by multiple policemen in the SN, and it is irrevocably tied to Oswald via his 2 prints. Pretend it's a fake, but LNers will keep reminding CTers it exists all the same.

And there's, of course, Howard Brennan, who supplied "witness identification" evidence of Oswald's guilt. I know CTers hate Brennan's Johnny-come-lately positive IDing of LHO, but that's in the record too. So you'll have to deal with it (and toss it aside), much the same way I have to deal with Luke Mooney's account of seeing the chicken bones on a SN box. So, life ain't always easy, is it? For LNers or CTers.

But to imply that you have somehow destroyed the case against Oswald (or even PART of that case) by way of the "Chicken Bones" topic and/or BRW's testimony and/or Arnold Rowland's timeline of events is just laughable, Tony.

~~pinch, pinch~~

TONY FRATINI SAID:

The real issue, as I see it Dave, is that you don't actually believe any response or research from anyone who disputes the findings of the WC. Isn't that correct? You have already prejudged and predetermined people on the basis of their beliefs? So in essence - EVERYONE here who doesn't believe in the WC findings on LHO's guilt on assassinating JFK is automatically wrong and hence must be a "kook"? Right?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Tony,

After looking at the evidence that hangs Oswald 10 times over (or more), I believe that the "CTers" on almost all Internet forums are not evaluating the evidence properly or fairly---because that evidence DOES prove Lee Oswald's guilt in TWO murders (IMO). Therefore, anyone who says they think Oswald didn't shoot anybody on 11/22/63 is just flat-out wrong. (Again, "IMO".)

Five years ago, another LNer at another forum summed things up very succinctly and accurately....

"There is almost as much evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy as there is evidence that Kennedy got shot." -- Bud; July 21, 2010

David Von Pein

March 2015

April 2015

I think Luke Mooney was incorrect about the precise location where the bones were found.

DVP, you have a very predictable modus operandi. Every time the evidence doesn't fit 'your' scenario, the person telling it was incorrect or lying or just misspoke.

Could it be DVP that is wrong?

Every since 11/22/63, the story has been told repeatedly that someone waiting in the sniper's nest, calmly eating a chicken lunch and left the remnants. Now here is 2015 you're decided that they were misstaken, that they actually ate the lunch somewhere else.

That's same modus operandi that the WC used. Did you learn from them?

OSWALD'S prints all over the Nest where we know THE KILLER WAS SHOOTING FROM.

This is so funny. We don't know who the killer was and we sure don't know where he was shooting from. "all over the Nest" would you define that?

[David Von Pein]

"All over the Nest".

Would you define that?

FIVE Oswald prints in the "Nest" (total). And among those five, I'm including the two LHO prints on the paper bag too, because that bag was in the "Nest" as well (despite the fact no picture of it exists in the SN itself).

All planted, Ken?

Edited June 22, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

"All over the Nest".

Would you define that?

FIVE Oswald prints in the "Nest" (total). And among those five, I'm including the two LHO prints on the paper bag too, because that bag was in the "Nest" as well (despite the fact no picture of it exists in the SN itself).

All planted, Ken?

You're making it up as you go along. You know very well there was no 'brown paper bag' ever found in the Snipers nest. It only turned up much later. The only fingerprints found in the nest belonged to Mac Wallace, care to explain that?

[Kenneth Drew]

"All over the Nest".

Would you define that?

FIVE Oswald prints in the "Nest" (total). And among those five, I'm including the two LHO prints on the paper bag too, because that bag was in the "Nest" as well (despite the fact no picture of it exists in the SN itself).

All planted, Ken?

You're making it up as you go along. You know very well there was no 'brown paper bag' ever found in the Snipers nest. It only turned up much later. The only fingerprints found in the nest belonged to Mac Wallace, care to explain that?

If you're going to use photo's 'claimed' to have been soon after the shooting, explain how a rifle was fired from that window with those packages lying on the sill? Where is the 'brown paper bag', where is the lunch bag with chicken bones.. then tell me this is not a 're-creation' of the way the WC wants us to 'think' it was.

[David Josephs]

We both know that the boxes making up the barricade did not have his fingerprints "all over them"... they found prints much later on ONE box - in fact since the crime scene was not kept clean at all we have no idea what transpires from the time Day leaves and returns later to dust for prints... and even that palm print is suspect.

Turns out that by the time he returns the DPD has multiple, fresh palmprints and fingerprints from Oswald fromhis arrest...

Mr. BELIN. Could you relate what transpired to cause 649 to be torn from 648?
Mr. DAY. After I returned to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository after delivering the gun to my office, we processed the boxes in that area, in the area of the window where the shooting apparently occurred, with powder. This particular box was processed and a palmprint, a legible palmprint, developed on the northwest corner of the box, on the top of the box as it was sitting on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you had this did you have any comparison fingerprints to make with the actual prints of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir; we had sets in Captain Fritz' office. Oswald was in his custody, we had made palmprints and fingerprints of him.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other processing that you did with the rifle?
Mr. DAY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. At what time, if you know, did you release the rifle to the FBI?
Mr. DAY. 11:45 p.m. the rifle was released or picked up by them and taken from the office.
Mr. BELIN. Was that on November 22?
Mr. DAY. November 22, 1963.

Also turns out that these vital pieces of evidence are left there for days, positioned and repositioned, photographed as the "At the time of shots" window when it was nothing of the sort.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when that was placed on there?
Mr. DAY. That was placed there November 26. The box was not removed, just the cardboard was removed on November 22 excuse me, November 25 I should say that he put his name on there. I returned to the School Book Depository on November 25 and collected this box.

The rest of that BS about it being his rifle, ... you can't prove. As proven repeatedly and again in my next essay, the trail of C2766 stops at Harborside... there is no proof other than for a June 1962 shipment, that C2766 ever left that depot.

Point to one other box in the SN barricade where they supposedly found his prints....... the boxes "on the window sill" as mentioned above, cannot even be authenticated as the same...

"OSWALD'S rifle.
OSWALD'S shells. (From his gun, I mean.)
OSWALD'S bullet fragments IN THE LIMOUSINE.
OSWALD'S prints all over the Nest where we know THE KILLER WAS SHOOTING FROM.
OSWALD'S prints on the paper bag (CE142)."

Since no one can physically get that bag into and out of that corner that day... you'll need to do much better than CE142... There is no proof that bag was ever even there, no proof that it's the same as the one CLAIMED to be carried by Oswald ala Wesley and his sister... but helluva nice try Dave

Between the last time Oswald was seen, 12:10 on the first floor without a 3+ foot paper bag in his hands and the shots, Mr. W here is on the 6th floor.

Without tools and without being seen, Oswald retrieves the bag and assembles the weapon

WHERE and HOW David?

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here. When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.
Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.
Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet.

Edited June 22, 2015 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

You know very well there was no 'brown paper bag' ever found in the Snipers nest. It only turned up much later.

Maybe you should try reading the testimony of these police officers--all of whom testified to seeing the bag in the SN before it was picked up off the floor....

Bob Studebaker

J.C. Day

Marvin Johnson

L.D. Montgomery

All liars, Ken?

The only fingerprints found in the nest belonged to Mac Wallace. Care to explain that?

You believe in all the myths, don't you Ken? Is there ANY crackpot conspiracy theory you don't embrace? Any at all?

Try reading the last paragraph of CE3131, Ken....

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0423a.htm

More lies, Ken? (The part about only a single PALMprint being unidentified, I mean.)

BTW, Kenneth, thanks for the free advertisement via your new signature. It's an odd choice for a sig, though. Normally people have no desire to make themselves look bad. But I guess you're a different breed. ~shrug~

Edited June 22, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Glenn Nall]

out of curiosity, is there any reason there should NOT be any of LHO's prints on the 6th floor of the building in which he was present every day for two weeks?

IF there were fingerprints NOT on that rifle, why is that alarming?

IF his thumbprint was on his own rifle, why is that alarming?

[Kenneth Drew]

You know very well there was no 'brown paper bag' ever found in the Snipers nest. It only turned up much later.

Maybe you should try reading the testimony of these police officers--all of whom testified to seeing the bag in the SN before it was picked up off the floor....

Bob Studebaker

J.C. Day

Marvin Johnson

L.D. Montgomery

All liars, Ken?

The only fingerprints found in the nest belonged to Mac Wallace. Care to explain that?

You believe in all the myths, don't you Ken? Is there ANY crackpot conspiracy theory you don't embrace? Any at all?

Try reading the last paragraph of CE3131, Ken....

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0423a.htm

More lies, Ken? (The part about only a single PALMprint being unidentified, I mean.)

BTW, Kenneth, thanks for the free advertisement via your new signature. It's an odd choice for a sig, though. Normally people have no desire to make themselves look bad. But I guess you're a different breed. ~shrug~

You believe in all the myths, don't you Ken? May as well, David, with the rapidity that you turn myths into facts.