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I'm still waiting for you (or someone) to establish that Walker was in Los Angeles (or southern California) the first week of September 1963---as Harry claims.

Well, Ernie, I don't have that proof -- but here's my theory. I'll start with this statement by Dr. Jeffrey Caufield in his new book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015):

General Edwin A. Walker was the mastermind behind the murder of President Kennedy, as the evidence presented in this work shows. An FBI and Miami, Florida police informant close to Walker co-conspirator Joseph Milteer provided the names of the shooters -- two of whem the author hs documented as close associates of Walker. (Caufield: General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy, p. 780)

Now, the US Government in 1964 announced that the full Truth of the JFK murder would not be released to the general public "in your lifetime." The unofficial date for the release of the Truth was 75 years after the Warren Commission report, i.e. the year 2039. In 1992 President GHW Bush signed the JFK Records Act (in celebration, IMHO, of the Fall of the USSR) and changed the date for the release of the Truth about JFK to Thursday 26 October 2017.

This means, given that Jeff Caufield is correct, that the US Government knows that Walker was the mastermind of the JFK murder, and is deliberately withholding that information today.

The information that the US Government is withholding cannot, of course, be located from any of the archives of General Walker's papers scattered throughout the USA. Those have been scrubbed. Only the slimmest pickings of clues can still be found in them.

So, IMHO, the confirmation of clues provided by Harry Dean in 1965 will be revealed by the US Government along with many other FBI reports and personal papers of General Walker on Thursday 26 October 2017.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

BTW--- let's assume, just for sake of discussion, that Willie Somersett's report is essentially accurate regarding the 3 persons who were the shooters.

How would that relate to Harry's story about Rousselot allegedly giving $10,000 to Walker to carry out the alleged "JBS plot"?

In other words -- has anybody ever claimed that the "3 shooters" identified by Somersett received some portion (or all) of that $10,000?

Would YOU be willing to participate in a first degree murder for $3333? If any of the alleged shooters were caught --- would $3333 have been enough funds to take care of their families for an indefinite period while the principals were in jail or prison plus pay for world-class legal representation?

None of the alleged shooters appears to have been interested in leaving the country nor did any of them seem to be interested in going into hiding after the event. Why is that? [Actually, I should say the remaining 2 shooters -- since Tippitt was murdered.]

BTW - In one of those amazing ironies of history, Tippit's widow married Dallas police lieutenant Harry Dean Thomas in January 1967.

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But, Paul, as I have already pointed out to you, there are only 4 FBI documents remaining to be released in October 2017 and none of them pertain to Walker. Two of them pertain to Ruth Paine. Does she have any connection to Walker? And two of them have something to do with New Orleans and perhaps Banister and/or Edward Stewart Suggs alias Jack Stuart Martin.

Furthermore, as I have also pointed out previously, there is a specific protocol which all government agencies follow with respect to archiving and indexing their records. The protocol used by the FBI has been known for many decades -- often because of successful lawsuits brought by FOIA requesters -- including (by the way) well known JFK-researchers.

Every FBI file which pertains to any individual or any organization and which has gaps (i.e. missing serials or serials transferred to other files--such as (for example) moving a Walker or JBS serial into the JFK-assassination file OR taken out and sent to the House Select Committee on Assassinations) would then contain a missing page advisory notice which identifies the original file number, the serial number, and the date and number of pages along with the receiving file number and new serial numbers (if applicable).

Consequently, what you are proposing, is ALL of the following:

1. The FBI deliberately lied to all investigative committees and commissions regarding records in its possession or under its control

2. The FBI deliberately concealed from the ARRB certain JFK-related records which discuss Walker and/or the JBS

3. Even more incredibly, you are proposing that every (suppressed) Walker-related or JBS-related document which the FBI created and sent OUTSIDE the FBI to (for example) the White House, or to military intelligence, or to the Secret Service, or to the CIA, or to other units within the Justice Department (such as the Internal Security Division headed by an Assistant Attorney General) or to any other government entity -- have ALL magically disappeared for the past 53 years AND all references to those documents which are contained in the unique indexing systems of each of those agencies or entities has ALSO been purged AND

4. ALL of the scores (and probably hundreds) of people who saw copies of those allegedly suppressed documents (starting with the clerical employees at the FBI who typed them, indexed them, and filed them) through all of the senior FBI staff (Inspectors, Section Chiefs, Supervisory Special Agents, field office personnel, and Assistant Directors) AND all of the scores (and probably hundreds) of people OUTSIDE the FBI to whom copies of those (suppressed) memos/reports were sent whom, therefore, had knowledge about their existence --- have ALL, collectively, been subjected to some sort of Jedi Mind Trick for the past 5+ decades to prevent them, in perpetuity, from ever bringing to light their personal first-hand knowledge of those documents.

Give me a major break!

P.S. -- You will notice that I did not even bring up the matter of how professional investigative journalists somehow have never received a single hint about the existence of these purportedly suppressed documents. So (for example), you are proposing that, perhaps, the greatest single example of official government corruption and deception and deliberate LIES -- which exceeds what transpired during Watergate -- and which concerns the single greatest event in our modern U.S. history --- somehow happened in full view and with full participation of literally THOUSANDS of government employees in multiple agencies -- but, somehow, NOBODY ever contacted a newspaper reporter, or a TV producer, or an editor, or a historian or a political scientist or anybody else to report about it.

Give me another major break!

Once again, Ernie, I still doubt that you alone have inside knowledge of the contents of the Top Secret documents on the JFK murder that are still being withheld by the US Government.

Also, Watergate was a piker compared with the JFK murder. J. Edgar Hoover came up with the Lone Nut theory on 11/22/1963, and LBJ bought it and sold it to Allen Dulles and Earl Warren. With these four giants the JFK Top Secret documents were locked away for 75 years. It is therefore not surprising to me that even US Senators, like those of the HSCA and other investigative bodies, could not pry these documents loose from the FBI vaults.

If Senator Schweiker could have no inkling what was concealed by the FBI, Ernie, what in the world makes you believe that you can guess their contents?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

But, Paul, once again, you have absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that there are ANY suppressed documents (much less "Top Secret" ones).

Nor does this have anything whatsoever to do with ME personally. You can see for yourself the ARRB list of documents remaining to be released.

IF there were documents pertaining to Walker, WHY would they be classified "Top Secret"? You have never once attempted to explain that.

Maybe you do not understand the classification system used by government agencies --- so you just use official sounding words to convey the gravity of your speculations.

As I have pointed out to you repeatedly, the very type of documents which you think would be suppressed (in terms of their substantive CONTENT) have already been released DECADES ago. So what is so special about Walker-related documents?

I do not know how to express this idea more forcefully -- but you apparently do not understand what type of documents were subject to being classified "Top Secret" as opposed to lesser classifications such as "secret" or "confidential".

I do not have to "guess" about any contents of documents. You can research the matter yourself by looking up the NARA document accession codes and then checking online to see if any of those accession numbers have already been released -- which is what I did.

So, for example, if it is a known fact that the FBI HQ main file on Paul Trejo is 62-100100 and the NARA accession codes for documents in Paul Trejo's FBI HQ main file cover this range of numbers 124-10073-10300 through 124-10073-10350 -- then, obviously, there are 50 serials in Paul's FBI file.

THEN, if you determine that there are two serials from Paul's FBI file which will not be released until October 2017 and their NARA accession codes (last 5 digits) are 10301 and 10302 --- then, obviously, you know exactly which serial numbers are currently not available until October 2017 (serial number 2 and serial number 3).

Furthermore, if Paul Trejo has no connection of any kind to Edwin Walker or to the JBS or to any other related subject -- then WHY would you think that the 2 postponed serials would discuss Walker or the JBS AND that they are classified "Top Secret"?

Do you have some alternative explanation? Unless you do -- then everything you have written makes absolutely no sense. Plus--you have never addressed the other points I raised in my message concerning how so many persons could have seen the suppressed serials (clerical and professional employees at numerous different agencies) but, somehow, NOBODY has ever come forward to acknowledge their existence OR the alleged cover-up for 53 years??

Edited by Ernie Lazar
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BTW--- let's assume, just for sake of discussion, that Willie Somersett's report is essentially accurate regarding the 3 persons who were the shooters.

How would that relate to Harry's story about Rousselot allegedly giving $10,000 to Walker to carry out the alleged "JBS plot"?

In other words -- has anybody ever claimed that the "3 shooters" identified by Somersett received some portion (or all) of that $10,000?

Would YOU be willing to participate in a first degree murder for $3333? If any of the alleged shooters were caught --- would $3333 have been enough funds to take care of their families for an indefinite period while the principals were in jail or prison plus pay for world-class legal representation?

None of the alleged shooters appears to have been interested in leaving the country nor did any of them seem to be interested in going into hiding after the event. Why is that? [Actually, I should say the remaining 2 shooters -- since Tippitt was murdered.]

BTW - In one of those amazing ironies of history, Tippit's widow married Dallas police lieutenant Harry Dean Thomas in January 1967.

OK, Ernie, just for the sake of discussion, let's stipulate Willie Somersett's report regarding the 3 persons who were the shooters.

Here's how it relates to Harry Dean's story about California Congressman John Rousselot giving $10,000 to Walker-supporter, Gabby Gabaldon to carry out Walker's "JBS plot":

(1) There were two plots. The first was to murder JFK in Dallas. The second was to set-up the Patsy in New Orleans.

(2) According to Harry Dean, the $10,000 given by Rousselot to Gabaldon was distributed to Loran Hall and Larry Howard, with some withheld for LHO and for expenses.

(3) Gabaldon gave Hall and Howard instructions to pick up LHO in New Orleans in late September 1963, and drive him in their automobile to Mexico City.

(4) Remember that by this time, in August, 1963, Guy Banister, using a Fake FPCC in cooperation with Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier, had helped LHO create a bogus résumé of "credentials" identifying LHO as a Communist party member and a Secretary of the FPCC in NOLA. LHO now had plenty of newspaper clippings to support his cover story.

(5) The Lopez-Hardway Report (2003) provides the full "credentials" résumé to the reading public, including photographs of LHO for the visas, in case they were granted.

(6) LHO was evidently told that FPCC leaders get instant passage into Cuba. So, LHO evidently believed that his bogus résumé of "credentials" would instantly get him into Havana.

(7) However, Guy Banister and Company in NOLA knew better. They knew that the Cuban and USSR Embassy's would check their paperwork, and reject LHO out of hand.

(8) At that point, in Harry Dean's account, Hall and Howard then drove LHO to the offices of Gabby Gabaldon in Mexico City. There, Gabaldon impersonated a CIA officer, who gave LHO some cash to participate in a "secret mission." Evidently, if LHO was successful in his mission, he would get his dream job -- a job in the CIA.

(9) That mission involved two easy steps: (i) moving to Dallas right away; and (ii) waiting there for further instructions.

(10) So, LHO did that.

This is where Harry Dean's story fits in, Ernie. That $10,000 wasn't for the shooters, it was for the Patsy set-up.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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BTW--- let's assume, just for sake of discussion, that Willie Somersett's report is essentially accurate regarding the 3 persons who were the shooters.

How would that relate to Harry's story about Rousselot allegedly giving $10,000 to Walker to carry out the alleged "JBS plot"?

In other words -- has anybody ever claimed that the "3 shooters" identified by Somersett received some portion (or all) of that $10,000?

Would YOU be willing to participate in a first degree murder for $3333? If any of the alleged shooters were caught --- would $3333 have been enough funds to take care of their families for an indefinite period while the principals were in jail or prison plus pay for world-class legal representation?

None of the alleged shooters appears to have been interested in leaving the country nor did any of them seem to be interested in going into hiding after the event. Why is that? [Actually, I should say the remaining 2 shooters -- since Tippitt was murdered.]

BTW - In one of those amazing ironies of history, Tippit's widow married Dallas police lieutenant Harry Dean Thomas in January 1967.

OK, Ernie, just for the sake of discussion, let's stipulate Willie Somersett's report regarding the 3 persons who were the shooters.

Here's how it relates to Harry Dean's story about California Congressman John Rousselot giving $10,000 to Walker-supporter, Gabby Gabaldon to carry out Walker's "JBS plot":

(1) There were two plots. The first was to murder JFK in Dallas. The second was to set-up the Patsy in New Orleans.

(2) According to Harry Dean, the $10,000 given by Rousselot to Gabaldon was distributed to Loran Hall and Larry Howard, with some withheld for LHO and for expenses.

(3) Gabaldon gave Hall and Howard instructions to pick up LHO in New Orleans in late September 1963, and drive him in their automobile to Mexico City.

(4) Remember that by this time, in August, 1963, Guy Banister, using a Fake FPCC in cooperation with Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier, had helped LHO create a bogus résumé of "credentials" identifying LHO as a Communist party member and a Secretary of the FPCC in NOLA.

(5) The Lopez-Hardway Report (2003) provides the full "credentials" résumé to the reading public, including photographs of LHO for the visas, in case they were granted.

(6) LHO was evidently told that FPCC leaders get instant passage into Cuba. So, LHO evidently believed that his bogus résumé of "credentials" would instantly get him into Havana.

(7) However, Guy Banister and Company in NOLA knew better. They knew that the Cuban and USSR Embassy's would check their paperwork, and reject LHO out of hand.

(8) At that point, in Harry Dean's account, Hall and Howard then drove LHO to the offices of Gabby Gabaldon in Mexico City. There, Gabaldon impersonated a CIA officer, who gave LHO some cash to participate in a "secret mission." Evidently, if LHO was successful in his mission, he would get his dream job -- a job in the CIA.

(9) That mission involved two easy steps: (i) moving to Dallas right away; and (ii) waiting there for further instructions.

(10) So, LHO did that.

This is where Harry Dean's story fits in, Ernie. That 10,000 wasn't for the shooters, it was for the Patsy set-up.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

But, again, we have no verifiable factual evidence to establish that (1) Galbadon actually received any money---or that he got it from Rousselot, (2) that Walker was ever in southern California, (3) that the alleged September 1963 meeting ever took place, (4) that Larry Howard or Loran Hall received any money from anybody and (5) that anybody inside the JBS participated or knew about any of this.

Instead, everything you have written is uncorroborated speculation -- and insofar as it is based upon Harry's recollections (which have proven to be very suspect) it is entirely hearsay (at best).

AND == incidentally -- NONE of this would qualify for classification as "Top Secret" information!!!!

Edited by Ernie Lazar
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Paul -- I am going to try one last time to bring you into reality.

There is no reasonable way to discuss this topic in a short message --- but I am going to try to give you a "Cliff Notes" version re: government classification of documents. By way of preface, keep in mind that for many years (as I once explained to you) there has been a Mandatory Declassification Review aka MDR process in place which has automatically de-classified numerous files. You can learn more about the MDR process here: http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/foia/foia_guide/foia_guide_chapter4.pdf

After 25 years declassification review is automatic, with nine narrow exceptions that allow information to continue to be classified. At 50 years there are two exceptions, and classifications beyond 75 years require special permission.

One of the ways you can determine what type of documents would be classified as Top Secret is by finding historical examples which have been declassified.

By definition, a "Top Secret" document is one which "reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security." [Note: these types of data do NOT qualify: speculation, hearsay, rumor, gossip]

Examples of "exceptionally grave damage" included in Executive Orders that pertain to classification are as follows:
"armed hostilities against the United States or its allies" [i.e. anything which could jeopardize the safety or effectiveness of our military during wartime or jeopardize our allies]
"disruption of foreign relations vitally affecting the national security" [i.e. something would adversely and gravely impact our relationships with foreign governments -- such as revealing sources and methods of intelligence we received from a foreign government.]
"the compromise of vital defense plans or complex cryptologic and communications intelligence systems" [self-explanatory]
"the revelation of sensitive intelligence operations; and the disclosure of scientific or technical developments vital to national security." [self-explanatory]

A 1964 Department of Defense instruction provided more-detailed examples of information that might require Top Secret classification. Some examples:

(1) A strategic plan documenting the overall conduct of a war.
(2) War planning documents which contain worldwide --
(-a-) Planning data and assumptions,
(-b-) Wartime planning factors for the use of nuclear weapons,
(-c-) Intelligence estimates of enemy capabilities,
(-d-) Force composition and development, and
(-e-) Real estate requirements and utilization by geographical area which are time-phased for a period of months.

(3) An operations plan either for a single operation or a series of connected operations containing any of the factors in (2) above and with sortie rates or target data
.

Another aspect of classification concerns how classified documents are to be transmitted For example:

CONFIDENTIAL materials may be sent via U.S. Postal Service certified, first class, express, or registered mail or government courier service.

SECRET materials may ONLY be sent via U.S. Postal Service express or registered mail or government courier service.

TOP SECRET materials may NOT be sent via U.S. mail and may only be transmitted by authorized government courier service.

BOTTOM-LINE
In order for you to present a compelling argument regarding FBI documents discussing Walker and/or the JBS which are classified "Top Secret", you would have to tell us how revealing them would cause exceptionally grave consequences to our national security -- i.e. our survival or well-being as a nation.
As I have tried to tell you numerous times -- the type of information about Walker or the JBS which YOU are suggesting is classified "Top Secret" -- would automatically have been declassified decades ago and that explains why (for example) you can currently see numerous formerly "Secret" and "Top Secret" documents about the murder of JFK, AND, you can also currently see individual serials contained within FBI files on Walker, on the JBS, and with related subjects -- that were previously "classified" but have been released.
This is also why you can go to the Mary Ferrell website and see hundreds of formerly classified documents released without redaction.
This is also why you can go to the National Security Archive website and see literally thousands of "Top Secret" documents from the 1960's which have been declassified --- even about the most sensitive subjects imaginable. For example, the Archive recently posted this:
December 22, 2015
U.S. Cold War Nuclear Target Lists Declassified for First Time
Major Cities in Soviet Bloc, Including East Berlin, Were High Priorities in 'Systematic Destruction' for Atomic Bombings
The FBI file captioned "Special Files Room" (aka Confidential Files Room) is another example (HQ 66-17404). You can see literally hundreds of file numbers and their subject matters which were originally classified "Top Secret" information -- including files about espionage matters, double agents used by U.S. intelligence agencies, American war plans, U.S. government codes, National Intelligence estimates, and all sorts of internal security-related matters.
On a scale between 0 and 100 (with 100 being the absolutely most extremely sensitive information) ANY info re: Edwin Walker and/or the JBS would score about 1 or 2 on that scale and it would NEVER qualify for classification as "Top Secret" -- especially 40 or 50 years after first being created.
THAT is also why the FBI never even formally investigated the JBS or thought it represented any kind of threat to our national security -- nor did they believe that the JBS, as an organization, was ever connected to any criminal conspiracy.
Edited by Ernie Lazar
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Paul -- I am going to try one last time to bring you into reality.

There is no reasonable way to discuss this topic in a short message --- but I am going to try to give you a "Cliff Notes" version re: government classification of documents. By way of preface, keep in mind that for many years (as I once explained to you) there has been a Mandatory Declassification Review aka MDR process in place which has automatically de-classified numerous files. You can learn more about the MDR process here: http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/foia/foia_guide/foia_guide_chapter4.pdf

After 25 years declassification review is automatic, with nine narrow exceptions that allow information to continue to be classified. At 50 years there are two exceptions, and classifications beyond 75 years require special permission.

One of the ways you can determine what type of documents would be classified as Top Secret is by finding historical examples which have been declassified.

By definition, a "Top Secret" document is one which "reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security." [Note: these types of data do NOT qualify: speculation, hearsay, rumor, gossip]

Examples of "exceptionally grave damage" included in Executive Orders that pertain to classification are as follows:
"armed hostilities against the United States or its allies" [i.e. anything which could jeopardize the safety or effectiveness of our military during wartime or jeopardize our allies]
"disruption of foreign relations vitally affecting the national security" [i.e. something would adversely and gravely impact our relationships with foreign governments -- such as revealing sources and methods of intelligence we received from a foreign government.]
"the compromise of vital defense plans or complex cryptologic and communications intelligence systems" [self-explanatory]
"the revelation of sensitive intelligence operations; and the disclosure of scientific or technical developments vital to national security." [self-explanatory]

A 1964 Department of Defense instruction provided more-detailed examples of information that might require Top Secret classification. Some examples:

(1) A strategic plan documenting the overall conduct of a war.
(2) War planning documents which contain worldwide --
(-a-) Planning data and assumptions,
(-b-) Wartime planning factors for the use of nuclear weapons,
(-c-) Intelligence estimates of enemy capabilities,
(-d-) Force composition and development, and
(-e-) Real estate requirements and utilization by geographical area which are time-phased for a period of months.

(3) An operations plan either for a single operation or a series of connected operations containing any of the factors in (2) above and with sortie rates or target data
.

Another aspect of classification concerns how classified documents are to be transmitted For example:

CONFIDENTIAL materials may be sent via U.S. Postal Service certified, first class, express, or registered mail or government courier service.

SECRET materials may ONLY be sent via U.S. Postal Service express or registered mail or government courier service.

TOP SECRET materials may NOT be sent via U.S. mail and may only be transmitted by authorized government courier service.

BOTTOM-LINE
In order for you to present a compelling argument regarding FBI documents discussing Walker and/or the JBS which are classified "Top Secret", you would have to tell us how revealing them would cause exceptionally grave consequences to our national security -- i.e. our survival or well-being as a nation.
As I have tried to tell you numerous times -- the type of information about Walker or the JBS which YOU are suggesting is classified "Top Secret" -- would automatically have been declassified decades ago and that explains why (for example) you can currently see numerous formerly "Secret" and "Top Secret" documents about the murder of JFK, AND, you can also currently see individual serials contained within FBI files on Walker, on the JBS, and with related subjects -- that were previously "classified" but have been released.
This is also why you can go to the Mary Ferrell website and see hundreds of formerly classified documents released without redaction.
This is also why you can go to the National Security Archive website and see literally thousands of "Top Secret" documents from the 1960's which have been declassified --- even about the most sensitive subjects imaginable. For example, the Archive recently posted this:
December 22, 2015
U.S. Cold War Nuclear Target Lists Declassified for First Time

Major Cities in Soviet Bloc, Including East Berlin, Were High Priorities in 'Systematic Destruction' for Atomic Bombings

The FBI file captioned "Special Files Room" (aka Confidential Files Room) is another example (HQ 66-17404). You can see literally hundreds of file numbers and their subject matters which were originally classified "Top Secret" information -- including files about espionage matters, double agents used by U.S. intelligence agencies, American war plans, U.S. government codes, National Intelligence estimates, and all sorts of internal security-related matters.
On a scale between 0 and 100 (with 100 being the absolutely most extremely sensitive information) ANY info re: Edwin Walker and/or the JBS would score about 1 or 2 on that scale and it would NEVER qualify for classification as "Top Secret" -- especially 40 or 50 years after first being created.
THAT is also why the FBI never even formally investigated the JBS or thought it represented any kind of threat to our national security -- nor did they believe that the JBS, as an organization, was ever connected to any criminal conspiracy.

Actually, Ernie, everything you wrote above is clear and easy to understand.

Yet not one word of that information convinces me that you, Ernie Lazar, know the contents of the Top Secret FBI documents being withheld by the US Government with regard to the JFK assassination, when even Senator Richard Schweiker was not allowed to receive clues about that data when he demanded it in 1978.

You just don't know what's going to be revealed on Thursday 16 October 2017, Ernie, so really, my guess is every bit as good as your guess is -- today.

NEVERTHELESS -- we digress. This thread is really about the New Book by Dr. Jeffrey Caufield -- which debunks all the lame CIA-did-it theories still making money in the lecture circuits out there. That's the real elephant in the room.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul -- I am going to try one last time to bring you into reality.

There is no reasonable way to discuss this topic in a short message --- but I am going to try to give you a "Cliff Notes" version re: government classification of documents. By way of preface, keep in mind that for many years (as I once explained to you) there has been a Mandatory Declassification Review aka MDR process in place which has automatically de-classified numerous files. You can learn more about the MDR process here: http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/foia/foia_guide/foia_guide_chapter4.pdf

After 25 years declassification review is automatic, with nine narrow exceptions that allow information to continue to be classified. At 50 years there are two exceptions, and classifications beyond 75 years require special permission.

One of the ways you can determine what type of documents would be classified as Top Secret is by finding historical examples which have been declassified.

By definition, a "Top Secret" document is one which "reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security." [Note: these types of data do NOT qualify: speculation, hearsay, rumor, gossip]

Examples of "exceptionally grave damage" included in Executive Orders that pertain to classification are as follows:
"armed hostilities against the United States or its allies" [i.e. anything which could jeopardize the safety or effectiveness of our military during wartime or jeopardize our allies]
"disruption of foreign relations vitally affecting the national security" [i.e. something would adversely and gravely impact our relationships with foreign governments -- such as revealing sources and methods of intelligence we received from a foreign government.]
"the compromise of vital defense plans or complex cryptologic and communications intelligence systems" [self-explanatory]
"the revelation of sensitive intelligence operations; and the disclosure of scientific or technical developments vital to national security." [self-explanatory]

A 1964 Department of Defense instruction provided more-detailed examples of information that might require Top Secret classification. Some examples:

(1) A strategic plan documenting the overall conduct of a war.
(2) War planning documents which contain worldwide --
(-a-) Planning data and assumptions,
(-b-) Wartime planning factors for the use of nuclear weapons,
(-c-) Intelligence estimates of enemy capabilities,
(-d-) Force composition and development, and
(-e-) Real estate requirements and utilization by geographical area which are time-phased for a period of months.

(3) An operations plan either for a single operation or a series of connected operations containing any of the factors in (2) above and with sortie rates or target data
.

Another aspect of classification concerns how classified documents are to be transmitted For example:

CONFIDENTIAL materials may be sent via U.S. Postal Service certified, first class, express, or registered mail or government courier service.

SECRET materials may ONLY be sent via U.S. Postal Service express or registered mail or government courier service.

TOP SECRET materials may NOT be sent via U.S. mail and may only be transmitted by authorized government courier service.

BOTTOM-LINE
In order for you to present a compelling argument regarding FBI documents discussing Walker and/or the JBS which are classified "Top Secret", you would have to tell us how revealing them would cause exceptionally grave consequences to our national security -- i.e. our survival or well-being as a nation.
As I have tried to tell you numerous times -- the type of information about Walker or the JBS which YOU are suggesting is classified "Top Secret" -- would automatically have been declassified decades ago and that explains why (for example) you can currently see numerous formerly "Secret" and "Top Secret" documents about the murder of JFK, AND, you can also currently see individual serials contained within FBI files on Walker, on the JBS, and with related subjects -- that were previously "classified" but have been released.
This is also why you can go to the Mary Ferrell website and see hundreds of formerly classified documents released without redaction.
This is also why you can go to the National Security Archive website and see literally thousands of "Top Secret" documents from the 1960's which have been declassified --- even about the most sensitive subjects imaginable. For example, the Archive recently posted this:
December 22, 2015
U.S. Cold War Nuclear Target Lists Declassified for First Time

Major Cities in Soviet Bloc, Including East Berlin, Were High Priorities in 'Systematic Destruction' for Atomic Bombings

The FBI file captioned "Special Files Room" (aka Confidential Files Room) is another example (HQ 66-17404). You can see literally hundreds of file numbers and their subject matters which were originally classified "Top Secret" information -- including files about espionage matters, double agents used by U.S. intelligence agencies, American war plans, U.S. government codes, National Intelligence estimates, and all sorts of internal security-related matters.
On a scale between 0 and 100 (with 100 being the absolutely most extremely sensitive information) ANY info re: Edwin Walker and/or the JBS would score about 1 or 2 on that scale and it would NEVER qualify for classification as "Top Secret" -- especially 40 or 50 years after first being created.
THAT is also why the FBI never even formally investigated the JBS or thought it represented any kind of threat to our national security -- nor did they believe that the JBS, as an organization, was ever connected to any criminal conspiracy.

Actually, Ernie, everything you wrote above is clear and easy to understand.

Yet not one word of that information convinces me that you, Ernie Lazar, know the contents of the Top Secret FBI documents being withheld by the US Government with regard to the JFK assassination, when ever Senator Richard Schweiker was not allowed to receive clues about that data when he demanded it in 1978.

You just don't know what's going to be revealed on Thursday 16 October 2017, Ernie, so really, my guess is every bit as good as your guess is -- today.

NEVERTHELESS -- we digress. This thread is really about the New Book by Dr. Jeffrey Caufield -- which debunks all the lame CIA-did-it theories still making money in the lecture circuits out there. That's the real elephant in the room.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo.

1. Of course I do not know the content of any Top Secret documents. Nor do you --- but you pretend that they exist. WHERE did you get that information? ANSWER: Nowhere. You just fabricated it in your mind in order to avoid acknowledging what is self-evident to all researchers.

2. Who cares whatever one Senator may or may not "demand to" know? You could have selected ANY Senator and made the exact same comment about any security-related matter. Almost all of the remaining JFK-related documents which will be released in October 2017 are CIA documents. Only certain specified government officials are given access to "Top Secret" information or briefings. That is how secrets are kept Paul. But you use that generic principle to suggest that something exists when there is absolutely NO evidence to support your assumption.

3. I do not know the specific contents of the FBI documents that will be released in October 2017 -- but, with respect to the FBI documents, I do know (and everybody else can research this and establish that I am correct) what files are the source for the remaining documents -- and they DO NOT include Walker-related or JBS-related files.

4. And, I repeat again, you have never explained...

** how would it be possible for an army of hundreds or thousands of clerical and professional employees at numerous government agencies to be aware of the type of cover-up which your position declares has been in operation for 5+ decades -- but, nevertheless, NOBODY has ever come forward to tell anyone about it AND (more importantly)

** how would it be possible for the FBI to purge the record-keeping systems of dozens of OTHER government entities of every single reference to the supposedly suppressed Walker-related or JBS-related documents which you think exist?

Example:

(i) Let's assume that Hoover sent instructions to several FBI field offices who developed "the plot" information. According to your theory that should include (at a minimum) Dallas, Los Angeles, and New Orleans -- but if you think about all the people and organizations mentioned by Caufield -- then one would conclude that about a dozen other field offices would also be involved in checking out leads which pertain to the plot---such as interviewing certain people who might have knowledge about the plot or field offices checking for relevant background information about the plotters as well as their contacts.

(ii) Suppose that after FBI field offices reported the results of their investigations back to HQ, J. Edgar Hoover followed standard FBI procedure and he sent a summary memo about Walker and "the JBS plot" to the White House and to the Secret Service and Army/Navy/Air Force intelligence agencies.

(iii) Give us an example of what "Top Secret" information YOU think is the type that would exist in Hoover's memos and/or in the field office reports to HQ

(iv) Then tell us how it would be possible for the FBI to arrange to accomplish all of the following:

** purge every single FBI indexing system (HQ and all field offices) of all references to the existence of any "Top Secret" memos which Hoover wrote as well as the field office memos, reports, airtels, and cables which were sent to HQ that contain references to Walker and the JBS plot

** purge every single FBI file (HQ and field office) containing copies of those memos as well as any communications which just mention the existence of those memos. For example: many times a field office would begin a memo with something like "reBulet" (i.e. "regarding Bureau letter" and then the date. How would the FBI be able to instruct its clerical employees to recognize and then purge such memos or other references because it would be part of a paper evidentiary trail which researchers would could put together to establish previous communications

Example: Suppose that on 11/26/63, Dallas sent a "Top Secret" letter to HQ about Paul Trejo being suspected of being the major source of funds to finance the JBS plot. That memo is marked "Top Secret" -- so -- in your theory it has to be suppressed.

Now--suppose that by airtel dated 11/29/63 the Bureau replies to Dallas as follows: "Reurlet 11/26/63, you are authorized to interview Trejo. Results should be expedited and sent to HQ no later than 11/30/63."

That HQ reply does not contain any "Top Secret" information -- but it is something that establishes a previous communication which was Top Secret so how could the FBI instruct its clerical employees (at HQ and field offices) to recognize and purge that airtel along with all references to it in their filing system?

** THEN -- how could the FBI arrange to purge copies of its original letter and subsequent follow-up memos which the receiving entities (White House, Secret Service, and military intelligence agencies) have in their files -- AND -- how could the FBI also arrange to purge all of the recipient's indexing systems of all references to any FBI memos they received?

** Lastly, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of government employees who had knowledge of all these memos and reports and airtels and cables. Somebody has to type them, to index them, to file them, to send them and the receiving entities also have dozens (if not hundreds) of employees who open the communications, date-stamp them received, record them into their filing systems, read them, respond to them in writing, plus (in some cases) instruct their own employees to follow-up upon certain leads or answer questions presented in the memos, etc.

So how is it possible for the FBI to erase the memories of many hundreds, if not thousands, of such people?

Edited by Ernie Lazar
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<snip>

4. And, I repeat again, you have never explained...

** how would it be possible for an army of hundreds or thousands of clerical and professional employees at numerous government agencies to be aware of the type of cover-up which your position declares has been in operation for 5+ decades -- but, nevertheless, NOBODY has ever come forward to tell anyone about it AND (more importantly)

** how would it be possible for the FBI to purge the record-keeping systems of dozens of OTHER government entities of every single reference to the supposedly suppressed Walker-related or JBS-related documents which you think exist?

Example:

(i) Let's assume that Hoover sent instructions to several FBI field offices who developed "the plot" information. According to your theory that should include (at a minimum) Dallas, Los Angeles, and New Orleans -- but if you think about all the people and organizations mentioned by Caufield -- then one would conclude that about a dozen other field offices would also be involved in checking out leads which pertain to the plot---such as interviewing certain people who might have knowledge about the plot or field offices checking for relevant background information about the plotters as well as their contacts.

(ii) Suppose that after FBI field offices reported the results of their investigations back to HQ, J. Edgar Hoover followed standard FBI procedure and he sent a summary memo about Walker and "the JBS plot" to the White House and to the Secret Service and Army/Navy/Air Force intelligence agencies.

(iii) Give us an example of what "Top Secret" information YOU think is the type that would exist in Hoover's memos and/or in the field office reports to HQ

(iv) Then tell us how it would be possible for the FBI to arrange to accomplish all of the following:

** purge every single FBI indexing system (HQ and all field offices) of all references to the existence of any "Top Secret" memos which Hoover wrote as well as the field office memos, reports, airtels, and cables which were sent to HQ that contain references to Walker and the JBS plot

** purge every single FBI file (HQ and field office) containing copies of those memos as well as any communications which just mention the existence of those memos. For example: many times a field office would begin a memo with something like "reBulet" (i.e. "regarding Bureau letter" and then the date. How would the FBI be able to instruct its clerical employees to recognize and then purge such memos or other references because it would be part of a paper evidentiary trail which researchers would could put together to establish previous communications

Example: Suppose that on 11/26/63, Dallas sent a "Top Secret" letter to HQ about Paul Trejo being suspected of being the major source of funds to finance the JBS plot. That memo is marked "Top Secret" -- so -- in your theory it has to be suppressed.

Now--suppose that by airtel dated 11/29/63 the Bureau replies to Dallas as follows: "Reurlet 11/26/63, you are authorized to interview Trejo. Results should be expedited and sent to HQ no later than 11/30/63."

That HQ reply does not contain any "Top Secret" information -- but it is something that establishes a previous communication which was Top Secret so how could the FBI instruct its clerical employees (at HQ and field offices) to recognize and purge that airtel along with all references to it in their filing system?

** THEN -- how could the FBI arrange to purge copies of its original letter and subsequent follow-up memos which the receiving entities (White House, Secret Service, and military intelligence agencies) have in their files -- AND -- how could the FBI also arrange to purge all of the recipient's indexing systems of all references to any FBI memos they received?

** Lastly, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of government employees who had knowledge of all these memos and reports and airtels and cables. Somebody has to type them, to index them, to file them, to send them and the receiving entities also have dozens (if not hundreds) of employees who open the communications, date-stamp them received, record them into their filing systems, read them, respond to them in writing, plus (in some cases) instruct their own employees to follow-up upon certain leads or answer questions presented in the memos, etc.

So how is it possible for the FBI to erase the memories of many hundreds, if not thousands, of such people?

Well, Ernie, you ask me to explain:

(4.1) How thousands of clerical and professional employees at numerous government agencies were aware of the cover-up which my position declares has been in operation for a half-century, without leaking it.

The answer is clear: your question is faulty. Thousands of government clerks DON'T KNOW the contents of those Top Secret files. They are the exclusive property of the FBI Director, ever since the days of J. Edgar Hoover, and down to this very day. Only a tiny handful of US Government employees know the contents of the Top Secret files on the JFK murder, Ernie.

(4.2) How the FBI could purge the record-keeping systems of dozens of OTHER government entities with this secret information.

The answer should be clear -- the Director of the FBI gathered ALL of the documents from ALL of the OTHER government entities within DAYS of the JFK murder, and kept them Top Secret in the personal files of the FBI Director. This was sanctioned by LBJ himself, so it was never violated -- even after a half-century.

(4.2.1) This is why your examples are mistaken, Ernie -- you underestimate the power of J. Edgar Hoover in November 1963. That's your error in all the examples you cited.

(4.2.2) As for the personal memories of the ones who knew, we must remember that since the FBI acted so QUICKLY, the number of those people was as small as possible. Not thousands. Not hundreds. Perhaps a dozen.

(4.2.3) Knowing the culture of US Government workers in 1963, the loyalty of the average Government worker to J. Edgar Hoover was astounding, by today's standards. Simple loyalty, Ernie, is the simple answer for the silence of that dozen.

(4.2.4) The proof is Jim Garrison himself -- even though in 1966 he chose to do battle with J. Edgar Hoover in a major way, from 1963-1965 Jim Garrison himself held the words of J. Edgar Hoover in enormous respect.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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<snip>

4. And, I repeat again, you have never explained...

** how would it be possible for an army of hundreds or thousands of clerical and professional employees at numerous government agencies to be aware of the type of cover-up which your position declares has been in operation for 5+ decades -- but, nevertheless, NOBODY has ever come forward to tell anyone about it AND (more importantly)

** how would it be possible for the FBI to purge the record-keeping systems of dozens of OTHER government entities of every single reference to the supposedly suppressed Walker-related or JBS-related documents which you think exist?

Example:

(i) Let's assume that Hoover sent instructions to several FBI field offices who developed "the plot" information. According to your theory that should include (at a minimum) Dallas, Los Angeles, and New Orleans -- but if you think about all the people and organizations mentioned by Caufield -- then one would conclude that about a dozen other field offices would also be involved in checking out leads which pertain to the plot---such as interviewing certain people who might have knowledge about the plot or field offices checking for relevant background information about the plotters as well as their contacts.

(ii) Suppose that after FBI field offices reported the results of their investigations back to HQ, J. Edgar Hoover followed standard FBI procedure and he sent a summary memo about Walker and "the JBS plot" to the White House and to the Secret Service and Army/Navy/Air Force intelligence agencies.

(iii) Give us an example of what "Top Secret" information YOU think is the type that would exist in Hoover's memos and/or in the field office reports to HQ

(iv) Then tell us how it would be possible for the FBI to arrange to accomplish all of the following:

** purge every single FBI indexing system (HQ and all field offices) of all references to the existence of any "Top Secret" memos which Hoover wrote as well as the field office memos, reports, airtels, and cables which were sent to HQ that contain references to Walker and the JBS plot

** purge every single FBI file (HQ and field office) containing copies of those memos as well as any communications which just mention the existence of those memos. For example: many times a field office would begin a memo with something like "reBulet" (i.e. "regarding Bureau letter" and then the date. How would the FBI be able to instruct its clerical employees to recognize and then purge such memos or other references because it would be part of a paper evidentiary trail which researchers would could put together to establish previous communications

Example: Suppose that on 11/26/63, Dallas sent a "Top Secret" letter to HQ about Paul Trejo being suspected of being the major source of funds to finance the JBS plot. That memo is marked "Top Secret" -- so -- in your theory it has to be suppressed.

Now--suppose that by airtel dated 11/29/63 the Bureau replies to Dallas as follows: "Reurlet 11/26/63, you are authorized to interview Trejo. Results should be expedited and sent to HQ no later than 11/30/63."

That HQ reply does not contain any "Top Secret" information -- but it is something that establishes a previous communication which was Top Secret so how could the FBI instruct its clerical employees (at HQ and field offices) to recognize and purge that airtel along with all references to it in their filing system?

** THEN -- how could the FBI arrange to purge copies of its original letter and subsequent follow-up memos which the receiving entities (White House, Secret Service, and military intelligence agencies) have in their files -- AND -- how could the FBI also arrange to purge all of the recipient's indexing systems of all references to any FBI memos they received?

** Lastly, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of government employees who had knowledge of all these memos and reports and airtels and cables. Somebody has to type them, to index them, to file them, to send them and the receiving entities also have dozens (if not hundreds) of employees who open the communications, date-stamp them received, record them into their filing systems, read them, respond to them in writing, plus (in some cases) instruct their own employees to follow-up upon certain leads or answer questions presented in the memos, etc.

So how is it possible for the FBI to erase the memories of many hundreds, if not thousands, of such people?

Well, Ernie, you ask me to explain:

(4.1) How thousands of clerical and professional employees at numerous government agencies were aware of the cover-up which my position declares has been in operation for a half-century, without leaking it.

The answer is clear: your question is faulty. Thousands of government clerks DON'T KNOW the contents of those Top Secret files. They are the exclusive property of the FBI Director, ever since the days of J. Edgar Hoover, and down to this very day. Only a tiny handful of US Government employees know the contents of the Top Secret files on the JFK murder, Ernie.

Your comment is preposterous Paul. EVERYTHING received by or sent from a bureaucracy is recorded. How do you think the FBI's Indexing system operated? This is why nobody believes what you write -- because it is obvious you have never studied this matter.

I suggest you check FBI files which I donated to Internet Archive. Review the "classified" documents which field offices sent to HQ and you will notice all sorts of markings on each document.

You can see examples of those markings in Harry Dean's HQ file and you will also notice initials of many different FBI employees who searched, indexed, serialized, and filed every document.

Unfortunately, since the files I donated to Internet Archive are only photocopies (or scanned copies), you cannot see the different colors of pencil markings used by FBI administrative support staff. I'll give you a very brief introduction here so you can see what was done to incoming documents (letters, memos, cables, airtels, etc).

MARKING / COLOR ...... Meaning

Blue Circle = the subject of mail to be entered into FBI Central Records System

Red underline = info which should be entered on a "see card"

Dotted circle = main card was found in FBI index

X in a circle over name = not necessary to make main card

Blue N before file number = new case has been opened

Green X or underlining = Agent wants additional indexing

Blue underlining = Information should be entered on a main index card

So obviously, lots of FBI employees were reading and indexing these documents because they contained personal or organizational names which the Bureau wanted put into their record-keeping system.

In addition, when instructions were sent to field offices, you can always see the initials of the people who typed each memo and who date-stamped it received and who replied to the memo as well as anybody who read or responded to the memo.

Many of the disciplinary actions taken inside the Bureau were against clerical staff who did not perform their duties correctly -- including (for example) not typing material at the speed which the Bureau established as its standard OR not forwarding information up the food chain in a timely manner. Obviously all these relatively low-level employees dealt with "classified" material all day long. They had to record step-by-step what was done with each document. [Very similar to how the Postal Service handles a piece of Registered Mail.]

(4.2) How the FBI could purge the record-keeping systems of dozens of OTHER government entities with this secret information.

The answer should be clear -- the Director of the FBI gathered ALL of the documents from ALL of the OTHER government entities within DAYS of the JFK murder, and kept them Top Secret in the personal files of the FBI Director. This was sanctioned by LBJ himself, so it was never violated -- even after a half-century.

Do you have proof for your statement? And again, how would clerical employees know which documents to select -- especially the ones not classified but which contained references to other documents which were classified?

(4.2.1) This is why your examples are mistaken, Ernie -- you underestimate the power of J. Edgar Hoover in November 1963. That's your error in all the examples you cited.

Merely asserting such power does not prove Hoover had it or used it. Hoover had no power over other agencies (federal or state) -- and it is well known that he had feuds with many of his peers in law enforcement or in intelligence-- such as at CIA. Hoover could not even compel police departments to report accurate crime statistics to the Bureau!

(4.2.2) As for the personal memories of the ones who knew, we must remember that since the FBI acted so QUICKLY, the number of those people was as small as possible. Not thousands. Not hundreds. Perhaps a dozen.

You are delusional Paul. Nothing in a bureaucracy happens "quickly" and, in any event, there are always examples of incompetence, misunderstandings, procrastination or inertia, not to mention human egos involved.

(4.2.3) Knowing the culture of US Government workers in 1963, the loyalty of the average Government worker to J. Edgar Hoover was astounding, by today's standards. Simple loyalty, Ernie, is the simple answer for the silence of that dozen.

Wrong again. The problem here Paul is that you are conflating and confusing two different matters.

Hoover was just one human being in an institution which employed 13,987 people in 1963. He could give instructions but he had no way of knowing to what degree his instructions would be understood or properly carried out -- particularly with respect to something as complex as ascertaining every document of any kind which might mention or refer to some name or event that you think would be "classified".

For example, why didn't Hoover compel the Miami Police Department to destroy all of its references to information it received from Willie Somersett? Why didn't Hoover compel FBI employees to destroy all such Somersett references which are contained in FBI HQ and field office files on Somersett, on Milteer, on Constitution Party, on Congress of Freedom, on Council For Statehood, and other related subjects?

Wouldn't you agree that Somersett's information is critical to understanding what is presented in Caufield's book as well as to general research into the murder of JFK? So what happened to the "loyalty" of government workers with respect to purging references to Somersett?

Tell us how many Miami Police Department employees were familiar with Somersett? Tell us how it was possible for the Miami journalist (I forget his name right now -- was it Christiansen?) to obtain that information?

(4.2.4) The proof is Jim Garrison himself -- even though in 1966 he chose to do battle with J. Edgar Hoover in a major way, from 1963-1965 Jim Garrison himself held the words of J. Edgar Hoover in enormous respect.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul -- my replies appear underneath your comments

Edited by Ernie Lazar
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Incidentally, Paul, I am still waiting for you to describe what information you think was created by the FBI about Walker and/or the JBS which they would have classified "Top Secret".

Surely you are not going to tell us that any document which states that somebody told an FBI informant that Birch Society members might be plotting to kill JFK ...OR... a document which specifies the name(s) of certain people who might be connected to a JBS plot -- is somehow "Top Secret" information? Are you?

If that actually is your position -- then why didn't the FBI refuse to release all of the other documents in their possession or under their control, many of which you can see on Mary Ferrell's website, which explicitly discuss right-wing extremists who were allegedly involved in such plotting, or who were overheard talking about murdering JFK?

You have never told us what is so unique about the Walker/JBS plot?

When you want to cover-up something -- isn't the normal general operating principle to suppress or destroy not only whatever direct knowledge exists about whatever you are trying to hide -- but, also, (just as importantly) wouldn't you try to cover up any secondary sources which could lead an interested party to discover the primary documentation??

Thus, for example, you would definitely want to suppress everything about Milteer because it might lead a researcher back to Willie Somersett (a primary source) AND you might want to suppress everything about BOTH of them so it would not lead people to start asking questions about groups like Constitution Party, Congress of Freedom, Council For Statehood -- or any other subject that might produce clues about inter-relationships, associations, affiliations, connections, etc. etc. Right??

Now---take a look at the Index to Caufield's book. Write down every person's name he shows in his Index.

Virtually every one of the FBI files on those individuals has been released. Ditto for the organizational names. So, again, what exactly is so unique about Walker/JBS that their information had to be suppressed but the same type of information which pertains to all of the other persons and organizations (often "linked" to Walker and the JBS in some way) -- was not deemed worthy of being destroyed or suppressed?

This is what I have never understood about your "Top Secret" argument nonsense. Leaving aside the FACT that nothing about Walker or the JBS was actually "Top Secret" -- you have never explained why Hoover's FBI did not decide to destroy or suppress EVERYTHING that leaves a paper trail which leads back to Walker or to the JBS or, for that matter, back to the larger extreme right community in general?

You constantly tell us that Hoover wanted his "Lone Nut" theory to be accepted and that was his paramount objective.

Then, logically, wouldn't Hoover instruct his subordinates to either destroy or suppress EVERYTHING contained in FBI files that might be used to undermine his "Lone Nut" theory? If only because such information (if it ever became public knowledge) would undermine the reputation of the FBI and, especially, Hoover personally? [Furthermore, Hoover could not even be sure that the evidence of his cover-up or corruption or dishonesty and even illegal behavior would not be revealed during his lifetime -- and, thus, he might have to face being held personally accountable.] Imagine how humiliating that would have been for him.

How could Hoover know, with certitude, that any FBI employee (especially a senior official) who retired or resigned or who was fired and who had knowledge about his cover-up and his dishonesty --- would not reveal that information --- even if only via a "Deep Throat"-type strategy to discredit him?

When Hoover relieved Assistant Director William C. Sullivan of his duties -- one of Hoover's reasons was because he thought Sullivan was engaged in a ploy to become Hoover's successor as FBI Director. Nevertheless, Hoover never destroyed or purged Sullivan's personnel file -- so you can read all of the numerous superlative performance evaluations which Hoover wrote about Sullivan and you can see all of the monetary bonus payments for exceptional performance which Hoover authorized to be paid to Sullivan.

In April 1963, Hoover wrote a letter to the Admissions Committee of the prestigous Cosmos Club in Washington DC recommending Sullivan for membership: Hoover observed that:

“As Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI’s Domestic Intelligence Division, Mr. Sullivan is one of the top ranking officials of this Bureau. He entered on duty with the FBI as a Special Agent on August 4, 1941 and rose to his present responsible position because of his superior abilities and qualities of leadership. Mr. Sullivan holds Bachelor of Arts and Master of Education degrees, and is a Research Associate in the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace of Stanford University. Through study and experience, he is one of this country’s outstanding authorities on communism and internal security and has served as a guest lecturer throughout the United States.” [HQ 67-205182, 4/10/63 Hoover letter to Cosmos Club Admissions Committee, WDC, no serial number]

In June 1970, Hoover promoted Sullivan to "Assistant to Director--Investigative" (the #3 position in Bureau). Sullivan was responsible for the Domestic Intelligence Division, the General Investigative Division, and the Special Investigative Division plus the FBI Laboratory. During that period, Sullivan received glowing performance reports written by Hoover.

However, about a year later, Hoover relieved Sullivan of his duties and placed him on annual leave pending receipt of Sullivan's retirement papers.

If Hoover had all the power you think he had, and Hoover was so intent upon protecting his own reputation as well as punishing his perceived enemies --- then why didn't Hoover purge Sullivan's FBI-HQ file of everything in which Hoover heaped so much praise upon Sullivan -- particularly those superlative performance reports which Hoover wrote about Sullivan where Hoover rated Sullivan "Outstanding"?

Your entire narrative reflects more of a cartoon caricature understanding about not just people --but also about how government bureaucracies operate.

Edited by Ernie Lazar
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Incidentally, Paul, I am still waiting for you to describe what information you think was created by the FBI about Walker and/or the JBS which they would have classified "Top Secret".

Surely you are not going to tell us that any document which states that somebody told an FBI informant that Birch Society members might be plotting to kill JFK ...OR... a document which specifies the name(s) of certain people who might be connected to a JBS plot -- is somehow "Top Secret" information? Are you?

If that actually is your position -- then why didn't the FBI refuse to release all of the other documents in their possession or under their control, many of which you can see on Mary Ferrell's website, which explicitly discuss right-wing extremists who were allegedly involved in such plotting, or who were overheard talking about murdering JFK?

You have never told us what is so unique about the Walker/JBS plot?

When you want to cover-up something -- isn't the normal general operating principle to suppress or destroy not only whatever direct knowledge exists about whatever you are trying to hide -- but, also, (just as importantly) wouldn't you try to cover up any secondary sources which could lead an interested party to discover the primary documentation??

Thus, for example, you would definitely want to suppress everything about Milteer because it might lead a researcher back to Willie Somersett (a primary source) AND you might want to suppress everything about BOTH of them so it would not lead people to start asking questions about groups like Constitution Party, Congress of Freedom, Council For Statehood -- or any other subject that might produce clues about inter-relationships, associations, affiliations, connections, etc. etc. Right??

Now---take a look at the Index to Caufield's book. Write down every person's name he shows in his Index.

Virtually every one of the FBI files on those individuals has been released. Ditto for the organizational names. So, again, what exactly is so unique about Walker/JBS that their information had to be suppressed but the same type of information which pertains to all of the other persons and organizations (often "linked" to Walker and the JBS in some way) -- was not deemed worthy of being destroyed or suppressed?

This is what I have never understood about your "Top Secret" argument nonsense. Leaving aside the FACT that nothing about Walker or the JBS was actually "Top Secret" -- you have never explained why Hoover's FBI did not decide to destroy or suppress EVERYTHING that leaves a paper trail which leads back to Walker or to the JBS or, for that matter, back to the larger extreme right community in general?

You constantly tell us that Hoover wanted his "Lone Nut" theory to be accepted and that was his paramount objective.

Then, logically, wouldn't Hoover instruct his subordinates to either destroy or suppress EVERYTHING contained in FBI files that might be used to undermine his "Lone Nut" theory? If only because such information (if it ever became public knowledge) would undermine the reputation of the FBI and, especially, Hoover personally? [Furthermore, Hoover could not even be sure that the evidence of his cover-up or corruption or dishonesty and even illegal behavior would not be revealed during his lifetime -- and, thus, he might have to face being held personally accountable.] Imagine how humiliating that would have been for him.

How could Hoover know, with certitude, that any FBI employee (especially a senior official) who retired or resigned or who was fired and who had knowledge about his cover-up and his dishonesty --- would not reveal that information --- even if only via a "Deep Throat"-type strategy to discredit him?

When Hoover relieved Assistant Director William C. Sullivan of his duties -- one of Hoover's reasons was because he thought Sullivan was engaged in a ploy to become Hoover's successor as FBI Director. Nevertheless, Hoover never destroyed or purged Sullivan's personnel file -- so you can read all of the numerous superlative performance evaluations which Hoover wrote about Sullivan and you can see all of the monetary bonus payments for exceptional performance which Hoover authorized to be paid to Sullivan.

In April 1963, Hoover wrote a letter to the Admissions Committee of the prestigous Cosmos Club in Washington DC recommending Sullivan for membership: Hoover observed that:

“As Assistant Director in Charge of the FBI’s Domestic Intelligence Division, Mr. Sullivan is one of the top ranking officials of this Bureau. He entered on duty with the FBI as a Special Agent on August 4, 1941 and rose to his present responsible position because of his superior abilities and qualities of leadership. Mr. Sullivan holds Bachelor of Arts and Master of Education degrees, and is a Research Associate in the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace of Stanford University. Through study and experience, he is one of this country’s outstanding authorities on communism and internal security and has served as a guest lecturer throughout the United States.” [HQ 67-205182, 4/10/63 Hoover letter to Cosmos Club Admissions Committee, WDC, no serial number]

In June 1970, Hoover promoted Sullivan to "Assistant to Director--Investigative" (the #3 position in Bureau). Sullivan was responsible for the Domestic Intelligence Division, the General Investigative Division, and the Special Investigative Division plus the FBI Laboratory. During that period, Sullivan received glowing performance reports written by Hoover.

However, about a year later, Hoover relieved Sullivan of his duties and placed him on annual leave pending receipt of Sullivan's retirement papers.

If Hoover had all the power you think he had, and Hoover was so intent upon protecting his own reputation as well as punishing his perceived enemies --- then why didn't Hoover purge Sullivan's FBI-HQ file of everything in which Hoover heaped so much praise upon Sullivan -- particularly those superlative performance reports which Hoover wrote about Sullivan where Hoover rated Sullivan "Outstanding"?

Your entire narrative reflects more of a cartoon caricature understanding about not just people --but also about how government bureaucracies operate.

Well, Ernie, now you're asking for my opinion about what data the FBI is holding regarding the JFK murder, General Walker and the JBS.

Naturally it won't simply be some informant's claims about them -- because as you point out, the Mary Ferrell website already contains such material released by the FBI.

I have said I accept Dr. Jeffrey Caufield's claim that "General Edwin Walker was the mastermind of the plot to murder JFK."

I have said that I believe the FBI knows this fact very well, and is holding back Top Secret evidence that makes this plain.

I have also said that I believe -- based only on speculation -- that this information will also justify the claims of Harry Dean, who made the same claim in 1965.

Yet I've also admitted that I don't know the EXACT CONTENTS of these Top Secret files. You have also admitted that you don't know either. So, we do agree on something.

But since you're asking me to SPECULATE, I'm content to do that. What would be so Top Secret? It could only be PRIMARY Documents by the Principals involved, amounting to a Smoking Gun, which is tantamount to a confession of guilt.

So, I disagree with your claim, Ernie, that all SECONDARY documents would also be suppressed. I think you're mistaken there. As you noted, there are plenty of SECONDARY documents already in circulation that name General Walker and the JBS and Minutemen in this schema. For example, by Jack Ruby himself. Also by ATF Agent Frank Ellsworth. Also, Willie Somersett, and so many others.

Anybody can report anything on OTHERS, and it's only unconfirmed allegation. But when you have PRIMARY documents, that's real PROOF, and undeniable. THAT would be Top Secret.

I don't see how anybody can deny the existence of Top Secret documents about the JFK murder, since the US Government has already admitted that they exist, and that they will be only be released upon the deadline of the JFK Records Act, namely, Thursday 26 October 1963.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul's method here is to repeat ad nauseum (despite having been corrected by others here) half truths and spins as if they are gospel. People who browse here just don't know the history, don't dig enough to realize what he is up to.

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Paul's method here is to repeat ad nauseum (despite having been corrected by others here) half truths and spins as if they are gospel. People who browse here just don't know the history, don't dig enough to realize what he is up to.

I do know, Paul B., that this list gets side-tracked from its mission to extol the new book by Jeff Caufield everytime you chime in to do nothing more than insult.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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Well Paul Trejo - the more you repeat yourself with statements like "lame CIA-did-it theories still making money in the lecture circuits out there" the more sure I am that top CIA operatives were involved. I wonder how much money these theorists are making. Now we have David Talbot's excellent book 'the Devil's Chessboard' to read and debate here, and one inescapable fact we can be sure of is that the Dulles brothers were traitors, not heroes.

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