Did Shelley & Lovelady leave the TSBD steps before Officer Baker's arrival and then return?

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You did the right thing Jim, Doyle is slagging you and others off like there is no tomorrow on his Prayer Woman FB page.

Thomas Graves knows his time is up here so he rather behaves like this as a final sendoff.....laughable really.

 

Bart,

 

My time is up here?  Do you know something I don't know?  About my standing on the Forum, that is?

You aren't trying to provoke me, now, are you?

I mean, isn't that against the rules?

Have you noticed how I stopped saying "With all due respect" to fellow members a week ago, and how civil and polite I've been, and how I even voluntarily acceded to James DiEugenio's desire to refer to me as "TG" by calling myself the same?

Seeing as how the moderators are very fair-minded people, and how I've been quite civil ever since the "Perfect Storm" of Kathy Beckett's being on vacation in England for ten days, and James Gordon's PM box being full, and David Josephs not really having been banned, but Dawn Meretith's evidently being told by David that he had been banned, and Paul Brancato's dramatic threatening to leave as a reaction thereto, etc, etc, etc, etc, why in the world would my time be "up" anymore that anyone else's here?

Regardless, I do have a serious question for you now that you are here:  Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton was correct in that Sixth Floor Museum interview when she "identified" her friend Gloria Calvery (from behind and fifty-five years after the fact) in that Z-Frame?

 

--  TG

Edited March 25, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Yup

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Yup

 

Bart,

 

Yup what?

Yup you are trying to provoke me?

(I've got some bad news for you, Bart, it isn't working.  See how civil I'm being?  I even called you by your preferred name!)

 

By the way, while you're here, please answer the following questions for us:

Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton was correct in that Sixth Floor Museum interview you posted when she "identified" her friend Gloria Calvery (from behind and fifty-five years after the fact) in that Z-Frame? 

If not, do you prefer to believe that Gloria Calvery was the dark-complected and dark-haired woman "caught" in Darnell's clip and therefore recognizable as being the woman standing closer to the Stemmons Freeway sign whom Thierry Speth, Don Roberdeau, and Robin Unger labeled "Gloria Calvary" back-in-the-day?

If not, do you prefer to think that Gloria Calvery was that lithe "Running Woman" running across and down Elm Street Extension?

 

Or, when it comes right down to it, would you now prefer to say that for some mysterious reason you haven't been able to spot Gloria Calvery in the 11/22/63 photos and films, yet?

 

Thanks,

--  TG

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Crash and Burn Tommy.....

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

Updated, especially for you and that other cretin with that filthy haircut.

[Thomas Graves]

, if so, if so,

13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Crash and Burn Tommy.....

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

Updated, especially for you and that other cretin with that filthy haircut.

 

Boy are you ever confused, Bart.  That photo by Cabluck on your website shows Stella Mae Jacob consoling GLORIA JEANNE HOLT, not Gloria Jean Calvery (who was either already on the TSBD steps when the photo was taken, or on the way there). 

Oh well, at least you got one of the two hugging women in the photo right -- Stella Mae Jacob -- so there's hope for you yet, Bart. It wasn't too long ago that you (and many others) believed that Stella Mae was Gloria Calvery!  

It's interesting that Karen Westbrook Scranton thought Stella Mae Jacob might be Carol Reed in the interview, huh?  (I wonder if Westbrook saw the mislabeled Z-Frame photo before the interview and maybe it influenced her to say that? (It's an easy mistake to make, I guess, you know, trying to identify people not only from a distance in an 8mm film frame, but from behind and some fifty-five years after the fact.)

 

--  TG

 

PS  If you want to see photos of what Gloria Jean Holt looked like in 1962 and 1963, why don't you ask your buddy Stan Dane to provide you with her highschool yearbook pics which he had up on the ROKC website when I checked a year ago (are they still there?).  When I came across them at ROKC, I "copied and pasted" them to a thread at right here at the JFK Assassination Debate forum, but unfortunately they, like many other photos that Sandy and I posted around that time, have since "expired" and are no longer viewable here.

Not to worry, though!  Because your "Cretin Tommy" had the presence of mind to make a "screen shot" of those Gloria Jeanne Holt highschool photos while they were still here on the EF, and I will be more than happy to upload them here again as soon as I can figure out how to downside the image containing the two photos of Holt, I will do so. (My laptop has Windows 10 and my browser is Google Chrome. I don't have Office or Word or Photo Bucket or any "snipping tools," so any advice on how to do this would be greatly appreciated.)

When I do, you'll realize, Bart, that Westbrook's "Calvery" was actually "light reddish-blondish haired" Gloria Jeanne Holt, and that Westbrook was way, way off in her identification of her "red haired chum, Gloria Calvery" in a film frame that was shot from behind 55 years ago.

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

 

  11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Crash and Burn Tommy.....

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

Updated, especially for you and that other cretin with that filthy haircut

 

Bart,

Boy, are you ever confused.  That photo by Cabluck on your website shows Stella Mae Jacob consoling GLORIA JEANNE HOLT, not Gloria Jean Calvery (who was either already on the TSBD steps when the photo was taken, or on the way there). 

Oh well, at least you got one of the two hugging women in the photo right -- Stella Mae Jacob -- so there's hope for you yet, Bart. IIRC, it wasn't too long ago that you (and many others, "thanks" to Thierry Speth's and Donald Roberdeau's and Robin Unger's mislabeling of Stella Mae Jacob back in the day) believed that Stella Mae was Gloria Calvery!  

It's interesting that Karen Westbrook Scranton thought Stella Mae Jacob might be Carol Reed in the interview, huh?  (I wonder if Westbrook saw the mislabeled Z-Frame photo before the interview and it influenced her to say that? Easy mistake to make, I guess, looking at people not only from a distance, but from behind in a 8mm film frame some 55 years after the fact.)

 

--  TG

 

PS  If you want to see photos of what Gloria Jean Holt looked like in 1962 and 1963, why don't you ask your buddy Stan Dane to provide you with her highschool yearbook pics which he had up on the ROKC website about a year ago (are they still there?). 

When I came across them at ROKC, I "copied and pasted" them to a thread at right here at the JFK Assassination Debate forum, but unfortunately they, like many other photos that Sandy and I posted around that time, have since "expired" and are no longer viewable here.

Not to worry, though!  Because your "Cretin Tommy" had the presence of mind to make a "screen shot" of those Gloria Jeanne Holt highschool photos while they were still here on the EF, and I will be more than happy to upload them here again as soon as I can figure out how to downside the image containing the two photos of Holt. (My laptop has Windows 10 and my browser is Google Chrome. I don't have Office or Word or Photo Bucket or any "snipping tools," so any advice on how to do this would be greatly appreciated.)

When I do that you'll realize, Bart, that Westbrook's "Calvery" was actually "light reddish-blondish haired" Gloria Jeanne Holt, and that Westbrook was way, way off in her identification of her "red haired chum, Gloria Calvery" in a film frame that was shot from behind 55 years ago.

 

Major edit and bumped

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/25/2018 at 12:21 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 2/16/2017 at 3:36 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

  .......

From looking at the photographic evidence of Altgens 6, Wiegman Frame and Darnell Frame, and cross referencing it with the 'testimony' of those who said they were on the steps at the time  it's reasonable to say that 10 of them have been identified; Molina, Williams, Dean, Reese, Shelley, Lovelady, Jones, Frazier, Davis and McCully.

Who is left over? Stanton and Sanders

If we look at what each of them said as to where they stood;

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

*Point of contention: Sanders said she was on the top step at the 'East' entrance!

*A point of interest; Molina: says he stood at the railings on the 'east side' of the building but does not recall who stood beside him but does know that Sanders viewed the motorcade.

As we look at the photographic evidence of the steps, the 'east side' is the right hand side as we look at it, and the 'west side' is the left hand side as we look at it.

Molina was certainly correct about being on the 'east side' as that is backed up by the photographic evidence, Sanders can't be beside him because he mentions her after saying that he does not recall who stood beside him! From the photographic evidence the two people that stood 'beside' him look to be Williams (up left as we look at it) and either Davis or McCully (down right as we look a it). So when Sanders said she was at the 'east' entrance that is not backed up by the photographic evidence...

... what if then, when Sanders said 'east' she actually meant the opposite side from where Molina is. How could she make such an error? Look at a compass, which side is East as you look at it? To the right hand side! What if, then, Sanders, when she said she was on the 'east' side she meant the 'right hand side' (from her perspective - facing out) and thus she was in real terms standing on the 'west side' of the steps.

Sandy,

 

Could "Prayer Man" have been ... gasp ... Sarah Stanton?

 

For the record, what Tommy has quoted above is originally from an Alistair Briggs post. Alistair had put a lot of effort into his analysis and I wanted to see what I could gain from it. His original presentation is posted here

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

For the record, what Tommy has quoted above is originally from an Alistair Briggs post. Alistair had put a lot of effort into his analysis and I wanted to see what I could gain from it. His original presentation is posted here

 

Sandy,

Do you have anything to say whatsoever about my previous post about Gloria Jeanne Holt's "expired" high school photos?

Did you miss it?

--  TG

PS  Did I ruthlessly plagiarize something, or perhaps forget to give someone, once-removed, credit?

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/25/2018 at 12:21 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

 

Could "Prayer Man" have been ... gasp ... Sarah Stanton?

Starting at the 34:00 mark in his 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview (below), Buell Wesley Frazier says that, "before Shelley and Lovelady left the steps to walk towards the Triple Underpass," a "crying woman"  (Gloria Calvery?) "came by and said that the president had been shot."  Frazier then mentions in the interview that he turned towards a "Sarah" and that he and she kind of asked each other what the heck the woman had said.  (At one point he also says that after standing there "for a couple of minutes," he went down to "the first step where Lovelady was standing.")

Now, in a blown-up slow-mo (?) version of Couch-Darnell, you can actually see Frazier turn his head towards "Prayer Man."  

 

Question:  Are Frazier and "Prayer Man" talking to each other in Couch-Darnell? 

If so, couldn't that mean that "Prayer Man" wasn't a man at all, but Frazier's "Sarah"  i.e.,  ... Sarah Stanton?

--  TG

 

Tommy,

I don't believe the evidence indicates that Sarah Stanton was standing near where we see Prayer Man to be.

Before explaining why, I need to point out that I believe Prayer Man was standing alone in the back corner of the entrance. Andrej believes he was standing near the front of the top landing. If I were to be convinced that Andrej is right, that could make a difference in my assessment. But for now I still believe Prayer Man is back in the corner.

According to Andrej,

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

The whole time we see Prayer Man he/she is standing alone. Yet Stanton said she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady, and Williams. And likewise Sanders said she was with Stanton. This doesn't sound like what I see in the photo.

 

[Thomas Graves]

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

I don't believe the evidence indicates that Sarah Stanton was standing near where we see Prayer Man to be.

Before explaining why, I need to point out that I believe Prayer Man was standing alone in the back corner of the entrance. Andrej believes he was standing near the front of the top landing. If I were to be convinced that Andrej is right, that could make a difference in my assessment. But for now I still believe Prayer Man is back in the corner.

According to Andrej,

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

The whole time we see Prayer Man he/she is standing alone. Yet Stanton said she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady, and Williams. And likewise Sanders said she was with Stanton. This doesn't sound like what I see in the photo.

 

Sandy,

Have you ever considered the fact that the top landing area and the steps comprised such a small area that everybody on same was effectively close and within speaking distance of everybody else on same?

How far do you think Frazier was from "Prayer Man" and vice versa?  (I agree with you BTW that PM was standing in the corner.)

Have you watched a blow up of the GIF and noticed how Frazier turns his head towards "Prayer Man" as though he's talking with him or her?

Do you believe that "Prayer Man" was your "Harvey" (oops, let's not even "go" there right now), and that Frazier lied, lied, lied when he said he didn't see Oswald during the motorcade?

(Had any luck finding any of those photos we posted about a year ago, comrade?)

--  TG

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Brian Doyle has told me that he believes that Frazier's "Sarah" was none other than TSBD employee Sarah Stanton, and that Sarah Stanton has, therefore, been misidentified by serious researchers as "Prayer Man."

 

I wonder if Sarah Stanton had stepped behind Frazier by the time of Darnell/Wiegman and that why we can't see her.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

So, we have witness testimonies of two ladies and other doorway occupants saying that both ladies stood far away from the western corner of the doorway, and we have a photographic evidence (Darnell frame) showing both ladies in the presence of Prayer Man.

Andrej,

It would be great if you would show us a frame and point out where Sanders and Stanton are.

 

[Thomas Graves]

26 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I wonder if Sarah Stanton had stepped behind Frazier by the time of Darnell/Wiegman and that why we can't see her.

 

Sandy,

Either that, or (presumably shorter than LHO's 5' 9.5") Sarah Stanton was fiddling with her purse or something back there in the corner while saying to Buell, "Yep, that's what I heard Gloria say to Billy, too!"

--  TG

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

 

Tommy,

From what I can tell, Bart now agrees with us that the woman on the left is (native American) Stella Mae Jacob. He now believes the one in the middle is Gloria Calvery because of the 55-year Karen Westbrook interview. You and I know her to be Gloria Holt. And, again because of the 55-year Karen Westbrook interview, Bart believes the woman on the right is Karen Westbrook herself. You and I know her to be Sharon Simmons.

Bart has photos of both Karen Westbrook and Sharon Simmons posted on his web site:

 

      
LEFT:    Sharon Simmons
RIGHT:  Karen Westbrook

 

Too bad they look as similar as they do, so we could make a positive ID. I will note that Sharon Simmons has her hair brushed down over her forehead, in contrast to Karen Westbrook who brushed her hair back, both in high school and in her 55 year interview. The woman in the Z-film has her hair brushed down, as Sharon Simmons does.

Luckily for us, we have plenty of photos of Gloria Calvery, and she clearly does not look like the blond woman above. I can't believe that Bart thinks they are the same person.

We also have Gloria Holt's high school photos, and she does indeed look like the blond woman above.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

It would be great if you would show us a frame and point out where Sanders and Stanton are.

 

 

Sandy:

there is a thread on this forum on this topic called : "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?", and this contains the reconstruction of figures of both ladies. You  can also read the full story here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/ . These sources also specify the only Darnell frame which shows a person who I believe was Mrs. Sanders. 

I am currently working on a 3D reconstruction of Altgens6 scene because some fellow researchers doubt that a person (Stanton?) could stand in the space between Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley. I thought I would be finished in some two weeks and now I see that 2 months may not be enough. The thing is that accuracy is required and this costs a lot of time.  For instance, I never knew that Billy Lovelady had a slightly exaggerated kyphosis causing his forward head posture and a slightly rounded neck. This small detail actually contributed to the V-shape shadow in Lovelady's neck region which is something that puzzled many researchers analyzing Altgens6. I will post the full reconstruction of Altgens6 on "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton...?" thread in few weeks time.

Here are some pictures documenting Billy Lovelady's forward head posture (not too relevant in the context of this thread...):

 

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Andrej Stancak