Did Shelley & Lovelady leave the TSBD steps before Officer Baker's arrival and then return?

[Michael Walton]

Oswald said he was "out front with Shelley." In Altgens 6 the guy identified as Shelley - with the suit on - looks a little heavier than the real Shelley.  Here is Altgens 6:

He seems to have a little bit of a belly on him and Shelley looks quite skinny:

Could the suit guy be anyone else other than Shelley?  Also, I found this on Greg Parker's forum.  A guy in the background when LHO was in NO looks remarkably like Shelley. Compare the collage photo with the photo taken in NO:

Edited January 20, 2018 by Michael Walton

[Michael Walton]

If you watch this:

It gives you a pretty good idea of the distance the walk would have been from down by the sign up to the steps. I can picture the women down by the sign, the shots are fired, then they walk back up the main entrance where Lovelady sees them as they approach.

However, I find it hard to believe that they would have run to the concrete island, looked around, then be back on the steps to then be approached by the woman who seems to be Calvery walking up the steps. All in that short of a time span.

If that's Lovelady standing on the steps as the woman approaches him, it's almost as if he never even moved from his original position he was in as seen in Altgens 6.

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/20/2018 at 8:48 AM, Michael Walton said:

If you watch this:

It gives you a pretty good idea of the distance the walk would have been from down by the sign up to the steps. I can picture the women down by the sign, the shots are fired, then they walk back up the main entrance where Lovelady sees them as they approach.

However, I find it hard to believe that they would have run to the concrete island, looked around, then be back on the steps to then be approached by the woman who seems to be Calvery walking up the steps. All in that short of a time span.

If that's Lovelady standing on the steps as the woman approaches him, it's almost as if he never even moved from his original position he was in as seen in Altgens 6.

Michael,

That's why Sandy and I think there's something "fishy" about some (if not all) of Shelley's and Lovelady's various accountings of what they did immediately after the assassination.  One possible scenario, imho, is that only Shelley went over to the "island," and that Lovelady remained on the steps.

Seein' as how it does look like Shelly and Lovelady walking down Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell, I'm almost tempted to believe there were two Lovelady's in Dealey Plaza that afternoon, because I'm convinced that the guy the "large, tall" woman is talking to on the steps is Lovelady, and that that woman is "large, tall" Gloria Calvery.

Like I said -- almost.

Sandy was really "into" this subject several months ago, and has written extensively about it on different threads of this forum.  Hopefully Sandy will rejoin this conversation and help to "enlighten" you on this issue.

--  Tommy 

Another possibility to consider is that maybe Marion Baker didn't start running towards the TSBD as soon as he had parked and dismounted his motorcycle, but stayed there for several seconds, listening to his police radio, thereby giving Calvery and Woman in White and Lovelady and Shelly enough time to do their respective "thangs" before the first three of those people were captured on film on the steps in Couch-Darnell.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Bart doesn't think there was enough time for Gloria Calvery to get back to the steps and be talking to Lovelady at the time we see Baker running across the extension. Bart claims she had only 20 seconds to do so.

In another thread I told Bart that I'd heard that the time lapse was more like 30 seconds. I then did a simple analysis showing that Gloria could easily have made it to the TSBD steps by the time we see her there. Which Bart just ignored.

But beside that, we have this photographic proof that Calvery and her friend, Woman in All White, indeed did have time to return to the steps:

 

 

Last year we did a thorough search and found only one woman in the TSBD area wearing all white, including a white scarf. There she is above, first as a spectator as shown in the Z-film (inset), and then on the TSBD steps in Darnell. She can be seen in the Darnell film pulling on the arm of the woman next to her as she continues walking up the steps. Not surprisingly, the coloring of this other woman's clothes matches that of the large woman standing near Woman in all White in Zapruder... the woman Tommy and I had earlier identified as Gloria Calvery.

As for whether or not Lovelady left the steps before Gloria arrived, the fact that he remains facing the road makes me think that he did not leave the steps. The reason I've written that he left the steps is only because Frazier testified that he did. Reading everybody's testimonies lead me to believe the following: Shelley left the steps first. He was followed by Lovelady, Pauline Sanders, and probably also Sarah Stanton. For some reason Lovelady returned to the steps before going far. Meanwhile Shelley bumped into Gloria Calvery on the concrete island and the two of them returned to the steps.

But it's possible that Frazier was wrong and that Lovelady did not leave the steps. In fact, this is a strong possibility if Frazier revealed this only later, in his WC testimony. Because he may have participated in the BIG LIE, that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps, only to return in the west door to be seen there by Victoria Adams.

It's possible that Gloria returned to the steps without Bill Shelley, and he returned later. And that's why we don't see him in Darnell.

 

[Thomas Graves]

17 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

If you watch this:

It gives you a pretty good idea of the distance the walk would have been from down by the sign up to the steps. I can picture the women down by the sign, the shots are fired, then they walk back up the main entrance where Lovelady sees them as they approach.

However, I find it hard to believe that they would have run to the concrete island, looked around, then be back on the steps to then be approached by the woman who seems to be Calvery walking up the steps. All in that short of a time span.

If that's Lovelady standing on the steps as the woman approaches him, it's almost as if he never even moved from his original position he was in as seen in Altgens 6.

Michael,

I've watched that gif many, many times, and I've peered at Altgens 6 practically like the guy looking at one of his own mysterious photos in the great film "Blow Up." In fact, it was I who was able to identify assassination witness Peggy Joyce Hawkins (and child) in said photo, and was able to prove that she was standing on the island, not down the street on Elm.

If you will find the names Templin and Brandt on Don Roberdeau's "revised" map of DP,  you'll know right where Sandy and I have spotted Calvery, right between Roberdeau's "Burney" and his 100% correctly identified "Templin."

So, now that you know exactly where we believe Calvery was standing during the motorcade (with Hicks and Reed and one or two other ladies), how many feet from the steps would you say she was? 

One-fifty? Two-hundred?

Close enough to get there in 20 seconds?

25?

--  Tommy 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

That GIF is interesting because there's a lot of different people moving at different speeds - some are running, some walking briskly. I'm sure that anything is possible - I can imagine the all in white woman seeing the shots down there, panicking or being blown away (no pun) and then hurrying back to the entrance.  If you watch the GIF right at the very end you can see she's sort of hurrying up the steps - not galloping two at a time, but hurrying up.  So I can imagine her seeing the murder, hurrying back hysterical, seeing Lovelady there - maybe saying "OMG they shot him!" then hurrying to go back into the building.

Another thing too is this definitely happened way after the main caravan has left Elm Street because there's no cars going down the street and the two press cars are just sitting there.

But the woman in white in the Z film has to be the same woman in white on the steps.

[Thomas Graves]

7 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

That GIF is interesting because there's a lot of different people moving at different speeds - some are running, some walking briskly. I'm sure that anything is possible - I can imagine the all in white woman seeing the shots down there, panicking or being blown away (no pun) and then hurrying back to the entrance.  If you watch the GIF right at the very end you can see she's sort of hurrying up the steps - not galloping two at a time, but hurrying up.  So I can imagine her seeing the murder, hurrying back hysterical, seeing Lovelady there - maybe saying "OMG they shot him!" then hurrying to go back into the building.

Another thing too is this definitely happened way after the main caravan has left Elm Street because there's no cars going down the street and the two press cars are just sitting there.

But the woman in white in the Z film has to be the same woman in white on the steps.

Michael,

If we're talking about the same "Woman in White" (she's even wearing a white headscarf), you do realise, don't you, that on the steps she has her left arm wrapped around "Big Girl's" (our Gloria Calvery's) right arm, and that she's physically urging her (i.e., "Big Girl") to walk up the steps with her, but "Big Girl" is still talking with that guy who is "bald on top" but has hair on the side (Lovelady?)?

In other words, you do realize, don't you, that those two women are very likely coworkers how watched the motorcade together, and that they were correctly spotted by Sandy and I in that color Z-film frame that Sandy posted, above?

Note the barely visible black horizontal line in "Big Girls" skirt while she's on the steps, and the fact that she still has her dark-colored headscarf on?

-- Tommy 

PS  All I can say is that I consider Sandy to be a truly great American who has done very, very good work on many valuable subjects (excluding, of course, the Arcane Art known as "The H&L And The Two Marguerites Theory"), and I don't know what I'd do, on this wonderful forum, without him!

Edited January 21, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Mervyn Hagger]

18 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Oswald said he was "out front with Shelley." In Altgens 6 the guy identified as Shelley - with the suit on - looks a little heavier than the real Shelley.  Here is Altgens 6:

He seems to have a little bit of a belly on him and Shelley looks quite skinny:

Could the suit guy be anyone else other than Shelley?  Also, I found this on Greg Parker's forum.  A guy in the background when LHO was in NO looks remarkably like Shelley. Compare the collage photo with the photo taken in NO:

What is the current thinking about Jones Harris who seems to have begun the "LHO" was on the steps comments? At first he confused BL with LHO, but I get the impression he believes in the two Oswalds theory. Comments on Jones Harris credibility?

[Michael Walton]

7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

ote the barely visible black horizontal line in "Big Girls" skirt while she's on the steps, and the fact that she still has her dark-colored headscarf on?

Yes, FWIW, I agree that the women you ID standing by the sign in Z are the same two women seen on the steps in the news footage also showing Lovelady as well as PM in the shadows.  At least for me, it's perfectly possible for both of them to have ran or walked briskly in their high heels, all shook up after the shooting, from the sign position to the steps where they were probably hysterical about the president being murdered practically right in front of them, and Lovelady being there as well, perhaps lending a comforting hand or word to them.

[Thomas Graves]

5 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Yes, FWIW, I agree that the women you ID standing by the sign in Z are the same two women seen on the steps in the news footage also showing Lovelady as well as PM in the shadows.  At least for me, it's perfectly possible for both of them to have ran or walked briskly in their high heels, all shook up after the shooting, from the sign position to the steps where they were probably hysterical about the president being murdered practically right in front of them, and Lovelady being there as well, perhaps lending a comforting hand or word to them.

Michael,

High heels?  Are you sure?

Also, it's "Run, Ran, Run".

(Sorry, I couldn't help it.)

--  Tommy 

PS  Unfortunately, Bart Kamp seems to think that "Big Tall Girl" and "Woman In All White" (in the immediate vicinity of the spot marked "Burney" on Roberdeau's revised map of Dealey Plaza) were too far away from the steps to have been able to briskly walk there in 20 or so seconds ...
 

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Also, it's "Run, Ran, Run".

I write for a living - among other things - so it's nice to have an editor there to clean things up.  Thanks for the correction.

It's hard to say what the stockier woman has on, but I'm guessing heels. But the woman in white almost certainly has high heels on.  Now, whether they threw them off to make the dash back to the entrance in time to be filmed in the news footage or not is another thing.

If you look at the map below to get an idea of where they were standing on 11/22, you can see the entrance in the upper right of the image - I think it's plausible for them to have arrived to be captured by the news footage.

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I write for a living - among other things - so it's nice to have an editor there to clean things up.  Thanks for the correction.

It's hard to say what the stockier woman has on, but I'm guessing heels. But the woman in white almost certainly has high heels on.  Now, whether they threw them off to make the dash back to the entrance in time to be filmed in the news footage or not is another thing.

If you look at the map below to get an idea of where they were standing on 11/22, you can see the entrance in the upper right of the image - I think it's plausible for them to have arrived to be captured by the news footage.

What do the three yellow circles represent?  Three people?

[Michael Walton]

8 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

What do the three yellow circles represent?  Three people?

The dot further up is where the green pole used to be. I  used it as a very rough FoR.

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

The dot further up is where the green pole used to be. I  used it as a very rough FoR.

Michael,

Thanks.  Great work.

Gosh, a 20-second fast walk from those two lower yellow circles to the steps certainly looks "do-able," doesn't it?

--  Tommy 

[Michael Walton]

I agree. It has to be them. I'd  be shocked if there was a second woman in white especially  one with a white scarf on her head to boot.