Did Shelley & Lovelady leave the TSBD steps before Officer Baker's arrival and then return?

[Thomas Graves]

5 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Karan Hicks

 

That is probably correct, Bart.

What's the point you're trying to make by posting this photo?

 

--  TG

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

What's the point of debating you when you either

a/goad.

b/have a weak attempt at sarcasm.

c/ask someone to speculate.

d/you do not study the evidence properly and blurt out opinionated drivel.

 

Thrill me with your answer Tommy Boy...

God I miss Bob Prudhomme, this forum needs him!

Edited March 26, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Incorrect Tommy boy, and stop asking me to speculate as you are good at this already you do not need my input.

 

Bart,

 

You mean ... gasp ... I've made a horrible mistake in saying that one of those two highschool photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt very strongly resembles your crying "Gloria Calvery," and that it's therefore highly unlikely that the crying light-haired gal (your "Gloria Calvery") walking up the *north* side of Elm Street with ... gasp ... Stella Mae Jacob ... and one other gal (who has a very-unlike Westbrook *long* face, btw), ISN'T Gloria Jeanne Holt, after all, but ... but ... but ... Gloria Calvery ???

 

How will I ever live this down, Sandy?  Andrej?

Robert Prudhomme?

 

--  TG 

Four (4) Darnell frames showing Bart's and Westbrook's crying, alleged "Gloria Calvery," posted here so that Forum members might compare them with this (1963?) high school photo of Gloria Jeanne Holt:

[here in a minute or two, Lord willing ...]

 

You be the judge, Forum members.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=12

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

I see you have joined the Prayer Woman page, well done Tommy boy.

 

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Bart,

 

You mean ... gasp ... I've made a horrible mistake in saying that those two high school photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt very strongly resemble your alleged "Gloria Calvery"?

How will I ever live this down, Sandy?  Andrej?

Robert Prudhomme?

 

--  TG 

Gloria Jeanne Holt's 1963(?) high school photo:

[Hold on, folks.  I'm having a few technical problems with this android ... hehehe ... I might have to do it later on my user-friendly laptop ...]

 

Four (4) Darnell frames showing Bart's and Westbrook's crying, alleged "Gloria Calvery," posted here so that Forum members might compare them with the (1963?) high school photo (above) of Gloria Jeanne Holt:

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=12

 

 

Edited and bumped so that Forum members might judge for themselves [EDIT:  ... eventually ... hehehe ...]

(Larsen, Prudhomme, and Stancak were on record a year ago as agreeing with me that the crying woman in the Darnell frames was Gloria Jeanne Holt.)

--  TG

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

 Hi Bart et al, 
Just a minor correction to your posting of the Holt yearbook photo. The '63 photo of Holt that you posted is actually her '62 photo. She has much shorter hair in her '62 photo meaning she can't possibly be the middle woman in the "Crying Trio".  Below are my yearbook photos of Gloria Jean Holt and Sharon Simmons Nelson along with an Allen photo in which i believe all 3 may be captured  in the aftermath. (Not sure about my possible  Stella Jacob ID in the Allen photo - but she is in proximity.)
As you know, I agree with you that the middle woman is Gloria Jean Calvery -  sans glasses - and it was brilliant of you to catch that! Seeing that Crying Trio over the years it never once dawned on me that she could be Calvery, even though i am well acquainted with Gloria Jean Little's yearbook photos.  Westbrook said in her 6FM interview that Calvery had red hair and sure enough Calvery did have red hair. 

Holt and Calvery do look very similar,  however, but the hair length clinches it for me.

Also below are '58 and '60 yearbook photos of Gloria Jean Little (Calvery) which i colorized using a new app called Algorithmia after neutralizing their green tint with Adobe Photoshop Express (If I uploaded the original greenish tinted photos they colorized really weirdly). They're not perfect but they're the best i could do. Calvery does have red hair as Westbrook described in her 6FM interview. 

Hope this helps!   

 

1958

1960

Edited March 27, 2018 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini
To add photo dates

[Guest]

Yes correct Linda, thanks for sorting. I was wrong which year book pic was which, that'll teach me cropping stuff

Holt's hair for 1963 is well short.

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

You're welcome, Barto!  

[Thomas Graves]

45 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

  .....

 

Hello, old friend. (Linda, I mean.)

I'm sorry to say that I'm terribly disappointed that you've not only gotten Gloria Jean Holt confused for Westbrook's "Calvery, sans glasses," but that you've also confused Jacob, Holt, and Simmons with three completely different gals in that photo by Allen!

--  TG

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

39 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Hello, old friend. (Linda, I mean.)

I'm sorry to say that I'm terribly disappointed that you've not only gotten Gloria Jean Holt confused for Westbrook's "Calvery, sans glasses," but that you've also confused Jacob, Holt, and Simmons with three completely different gals in that photo by Allen!

--  TG

 

Hello Tommy, 
Well that's your opinion; I have mine.  Meanwhile, back to the facts at hand with the Crying Trio. Tommy, how do you square Holt's very short hair in her '63 yrbk photo with the crying woman in the trio who has beaucoup hair? 

 

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Linda Giovanna Zambanini said:

Hello Tommy, 
Well that's your opinion; I have mine.  Meanwhile, back to the facts at hand with the Crying Trio. Tommy, how do you square Holt's very short hair in her '63 yrbk photo with the crying woman in the trio who has beaucoup hair? 

 

 

Hi Linda,

 

Well, she had really fast-growing hair and more than a year to grow it (if the photo was taken early in the school year)?

She was wearing a wig?

(Beats the heck out of me.)

 

Now some questions for you, Linda:

1)  Do you agree that the dark-complected gal (whom for many years was mislabeled by Robin Unger & Co. as "Gloria Calvary" (sic), and believed by many researchers to have been an Afro-American woman) is, in reality, self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob?

2)  How long after the assassination was the Cabluck photo taken? Not so long after the final shot as to preclude your Calvery from getting to the "island" or the steps (or wherever) to talk with Shelley and Lovelady before they started bookin' it down Elm Street Extension?  And not too late to talk with Joe Molina in the "lobby" around the same time that Joe said Officer Baker entered the building?

3)  Why isn't your Calvery wearing her otherwise ever-present "styling glasses" in the Darnell clip?

 

--  TG

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

27 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

1)  Do you agree that the dark-complected gal (whom for many years was mislabeled by Robin Unger & Co. as "Gloria Calvary" (sic), and believed by many researchers to have been an Afro-American woman) is, in reality, self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob?

I admitted 6-months ago that i was incorrect when i originally labelled the Zapruder and Cabluck images in my gallery.

I then deleted the incorrectly labelled images from my gallery.

 

and yet you still continue to post the incorrectly labelled images, even after i freely admitted that i had made an error in my original spectator identifications.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Robin Unger said:

I admitted 6-months ago that i was incorrect when i originally labelled the Zapruder and Cabluck images in my gallery.

I then deleted the incorrectly labelled images from my gallery.

 

and yet you still continue to post the incorrectly labelled images, even after i freely admitted that i had made an error in my original spectator identifications.

 

Robin,

 

Have you finally correctly labeled Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, and Sharron Simmons?

If so, my bad. 

But at least in my above post I suggested that the mislabeling was done in the past, wouldn't you agree?

 

--  TG

 

EDIT:  I just now looked at your recently re-labeled trio of women in the frame from the Darnell clip, and I'm sorry to say that the only one you got right is Stella Mae Jacob. 

But at least you're making progress, Robin, because iirc for many years you had those three women (Jacob, Holt, and Simmons) mislabeled as "Calvary, Hicks, and Reed"!

What in the world influenced you to get self-described Native American *Stella Mae Jacob* right this time, anyway?  The fact that she's dark complected and has black hair and a classic Native-American nose?

Haven't you ever wondered where the two gals she said she was with (Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharron Simmons) ... are in that Darnell clip?

What the heck happened Stella Mae's co-workers?!

Has it ever crossed your mind, Robin, that Stella Mae Jacob might have been walking with Holt and Simmons in that Darnell clip which was shot a minute or two after the assassination?

Have you ever noticed how gosh-darned similar Holt looks in that 1963 high school photo of her (not the 1962 one!) to the crying gal in Darnell (especially when she's actually got her eyes open and is looking at the camera)?

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

Sharron Simmons 1960

Are you saying that you can identify this woman in the  Darnell frames.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Robin Unger

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/20/2018 at 5:26 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Bart doesn't think there was enough time for Gloria Calvery to get back to the steps and be talking to Lovelady at the time we see Baker running across the extension. Bart claims she had only 20 seconds to do so.

In another thread I told Bart that I'd heard that the time lapse was more like 30 seconds. I then did a simple analysis showing that Gloria could easily have made it to the TSBD steps by the time we see her there. Which Bart just ignored.

But beside that, we have this photographic proof that Calvery and her friend, Woman in All White, indeed did have time to return to the steps:

 

 

Last year we did a thorough search and found only one woman in the TSBD area wearing all white, including a white scarf. There she is above, first as a spectator as shown in the Z-film (inset), and then on the TSBD steps in Darnell. She can be seen in the Darnell film pulling on the arm of the woman next to her as she continues walking up the steps. Not surprisingly, the coloring of this other woman's clothes matches that of the large woman standing near Woman in all White in Zapruder... the woman Tommy and I had earlier identified as Gloria Calvery.

As for whether or not Lovelady left the steps before Gloria arrived, the fact that he remains facing the road makes me think that he did not leave the steps. The reason I've written that he left the steps is only because Frazier testified that he did. Reading everybody's testimonies lead me to believe the following: Shelley left the steps first. He was followed by Lovelady, Pauline Sanders, and probably also Sarah Stanton. For some reason Lovelady returned to the steps before going far. Meanwhile Shelley bumped into Gloria Calvery on the concrete island and the two of them returned to the steps.

But it's possible that Frazier was wrong and that Lovelady did not leave the steps. In fact, this is a strong possibility if Frazier revealed this only later, in his WC testimony. Because he may have participated in the BIG LIE, that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps, only to return in the west door to be seen there by Victoria Adams.

It's possible that Gloria returned to the steps without Bill Shelley, and he returned later. And that's why we don't see him in Darnell.

 

 

Excellent post, Sandy, and more than deserving of a "bump" in my humble opinion.

--  TG

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves