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Thomas Graves

A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

You like growed up person with such well English, Tommy? 

First perfect sentence reads:

“Sorry too take so long to write but I thought sometime might have
come up but we’re still waiting.”

[image of the letter deleted]

And speaking of Harvey Oswald’s voice, listen to his August 21, 1963 radio debate with Bringuier and Butler:

Does that sound like the voice of a Good Ole’ American boy raised in Texas and Louisiana?  Really?

Go ahead, Tommy.  Whine and cry all you want.  Say Professor Vladimir Petrov, head of the Slavic Language Department at Yale University, was a paid disinformationist, or had a pistol pointed to his head, or was taking LSD at the time.  Your arguments are stupid.

"Dear James"

 

1 )  No American's English is perfect, especially when communicating informally with a close American relative.

 

“Sorry too (to) take so long to write but I thought sometime (thing) might have come up(,) but we’re still waiting.”

       My analysis: Two spelling mistakes and one missing punctuation mark. Big deal.

 

2 )  As regards your contention that "Harvey" didn't sound Southern enough during his radio debate, I would imagine that it was was because he was trying to sound educated to the radio audience, rather than like a good old Southern boy. Probably the same way he tried to sound when he gave his prepared speech to that seminary.

 

3 )  As regards your "point" that my arguments are "stupid" -- well, close but no cigar, Dear James.  It would be more accurate to say that even though I'm stupid, my arguments are intuitively brilliant.  Know why?  Because when I was typing out those two letters, above, one of them had a word in it that Oswald actually spelled correctly and I got wrong (but didn't notice until I was proofreading what I'd typed and the "spellchecker" pointed it out. Given the fact that I'm pretty stupid, my making a spelling mistake should have been forseeable I mean foreseeable, huh?

 

4 )  As far as your precious YALE PROFESSOR is concerned, he was so far off on his "analysis," above, as to be suspect, imho.  Let me put it to you this way --  he was so far off that I wouldn't be surprised if he was working the graveyard shift for the the YALE LOCK COMPANY, instead.

 

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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And blah-blah-blah.

In my first post in this thread, I made it pretty clear that you would consider yourself superior to the head of Slavic languages at Yale on this subject, and your pomposity doesn’t disappoint.

Funny how so many of the Russian  immigrants around Dallas were amazed by Harvey’s mastery of Russian, which happened, we’re told,  from reading Russian magazines with a dictionary in the Marines and spending two and a half years working full time in a Russian factory.  That’s how you learn to appreciate reading the Russian classics in Russian, as de Mohrenschildt noted Harvey did.  That’s how you come to prefer speaking Russian to English, as de Mohrenschildt also noted about Lee HARVEY Oswald.  

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And blah-blah-blah.

Jim, I hope you don't mind letting me off the hook by not asking me to dig deep into the subject, it just seems like a great labyrinth. I do come upon, frequently, WTH moments that I can only explain with a dual LHO theory. One of those moments is the subject of this question:

Whenever I look at photos or videos of the DPD LHO, I do not see a US Marine, or former US Marine. Everything about him speaks against his being recruited in the Marines, passing training, and being incorporated and accepted into a Marine unit. Is there an aspect of the Harvey and Lee story that accounts for the DPD LHO never having been a Marine, and, perhaps, having been in Russia longer?

Cheers,

Michael

Edited by Michael Clark

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The way I try to explain this to people is that the Russian-speaking impostor (Harvey Oswald) was always being given a taste of American-born Lee Oswald’s life, so he could eventually “defect” to the Soviet Union and appear to be a red-blooded American.  But he really only had a taste of Lee Oswald’s life.

Lee Oswald served in the Marine Corps for roughly the time the Warren Commission said he did.  But during this period Russian-speaking Harvey was placed in and out of various USMC settings by his handlers. For example, during much of the time (nearly a full year) when Lee Oswald served in Japan and the Phillipines, Harvey was living at the Hotel Senator in New Orleans and later in Fort Worth.  Harvey did spend time with some Marines, but I don’t think he could be considered a real Marine under any circumstances.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/28/2017 at 7:31 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

And blah-blah-blah.

In my first post in this thread, I made it pretty clear that you would consider yourself superior to the head of Slavic languages at Yale on this subject, and your pomposity doesn’t disappoint.

Funny how so many of the Russian  immigrants around Dallas were amazed by Harvey’s mastery of Russian, which happened, we’re told,  from reading Russian magazines with a dictionary in the Marines and spending two and a half years working full time in a Russian factory.  That’s how you learn to appreciate reading the Russian classics in Russian, as de Mohrenschildt noted Harvey did.  That’s how you come to prefer speaking Russian to English, as de Mohrenschildt also noted about Lee HARVEY Oswald.  

"Dear James"

To freshen your memory, we were talking about Hungarian "Harvey's" incredibly good English syntax, grammar, and vocabulary, not his Russian language skills.

He spoke and wrote pretty darn good English for a (dyslexic?) boy whose "mother tongue" was Hungarian  (a Central Asian-based, non-Indo-European language), and who, at a young age, learned the Indo-European but highly "inflected" (look it up) Russian language, and then somehow mastered the also Indo-European but not highly inflected English language!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection#English

Russian has six "cases" (look up that grammatical term), whereas English (which centuries ago was highly inflected) has only 2 1/2 "mishmashed" ones.  

That's why word order is important in English.  "Active voice" (look up that grammatical term) uses classic Subject - Verb - Object  word order; "Passive voice"  uses Object - Verb - Subject word order (which is preferred by lawyers, btw - LOL).

In a Slavic language like Russian, word order is not so important (except for emphasizing different words in the sentence); that's why Russian people who are learning English often utter sentences that seem "all mixed up" to us, word-order-wise.

Two other differences to bear in mind are that English has something like 18 or 21 "tenses" (look it up), whereas Russian only has three or five (depending on how you define "tense"), and that English uses "articles" (look it up), i.e. "a" "an" and "the", whereas Slavic languages like Russian do not, which would explain why my Czech students made so many mistakes in trying to use them correctly while speaking English.  (That's why whenever I hear someone having problems with the words "a" "an" and  / or "the", I immediately suspect, especially if I can hear a Slavic accent, that they are from a Slavic country like Poland, the Czech Republic, or Russia, for example.)

It's interesting to note that your Hungarian "Harvey" who had "learned Russian at an early age" didn't make mistakes regarding word order , tenses, or the use of the aforementioned "articles" when speaking or writing in English.  Which leads me to believe that he was born in the U.S., and that English was his "mother tongue."

--  Tommy :sun

PS  It seems to me that your Precious Professor was full of high-falutin' "book-learning," but was woefully inexperienced with "hands on" learning.  Like being raised in La Jolla, California (home of UCSD and the Salk Institute, etc), hitch-hiking to Alaska, driving a taxi cab for five years in San Diego and Scottsdale, Arizona, going to lawschool for one year -- and not flunking out! --, and teaching "conversational English" to Czech people for seven years, in ... the Czech Republic.

Oh, yeah, and having to learn some Czech, myself, like "Another beer, please," and ... "Where's the restroom?"

PPS  "And blah-blah-blah," yourself, Kamarad.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I suspect HARVEY Oswald was a WW II...

Jim, even with this clone story having an extremely tenuous grip on realism, it seems like you've now ventured into supposition?  You suspect this?  And you can't prove this or that?  If that's true, how can you expect anyone to believe this story?

You also mention the Hungarian being an orphan.  How is it possible, if the orphan's family to be dead, that the planners would some how, some way find almost an exact look a like of Marge Oswald to have almost the exact looks as the smiley happy version of Marge?  In other words, in a million-to-one chance they found TWO look a like Lees separated thousands of miles apart, and yet we're also expected to believe that in another million-to-one chance they found two Marge look a likes too?

Do you not see how absurd that is?  Or is the pitching for dollars scheme so great that any chance for the truth is simply brushed away?

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35 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

I suspect HARVEY Oswald was a WW II...

Jim, even with this clone story having an extremely tenuous grip on realism, it seems like you've now ventured into supposition?  You suspect this?  And you can't prove this or that?  If that's true, how can you expect anyone to believe this story?

You also mention the Hungarian being an orphan.  How is it possible, if the orphan's family to be dead, that the planners would some how, some way find almost an exact look a like of Marge Oswald to have almost the exact looks as the smiley happy version of Marge?  In other words, in a million-to-one chance they found TWO look a like Lees separated thousands of miles apart, and yet we're also expected to believe that in another million-to-one chance they found two Marge look a likes too?

Do you not see how absurd that is?  Or is the pitching for dollars scheme so great that any chance for the truth is simply brushed away?

Keep in mind that the idea of "Harvey" being a Russian-speaking Hungarian is completely based on a phone call. The following description of the concept is taken from Hargrove's website:

Following the assassination of President Kennedy, a Mrs. Jack Tippit, of Westport, Connecticut, telephoned the FBI and said that she had just received a phone call from an unknown foreign woman who asked if she was related to police officer J.D. Tippit who was killed in Dallas. The unknown woman said that she knew Oswald's father and uncle, who were from Hungary, said they used to live near 77th and 2nd Avenue in Yorkville, New York City, and spent all of their time on "Communist activities." The identity of the woman remains unknown, but her statements about Oswald's eastern European heritage and the neighborhood in which he lived seem more and more plausible as we study and learn about the life and background of a second "Lee Harvey Oswald," the man accused of assassinating President Kennedy in 1963.

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Harvey and Lee didn’t look that much alike.  Do you think the two men on the extreme left and the far right are the same person?

4oswalds.jpg?dl=0

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Posted (edited)
On 3/28/2017 at 6:36 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Harvey and Lee didn’t look that much alike.  Do you think the two men on the extreme left and the far right are the same person?

4oswalds.jpg?dl=0

 

"Dear James"

Why in the world did you label the two guys in the middle the way you did?  If anything you should have called the skinny blond guy "Azcue's Blond Oswald" or LEON (KGB officer Nikolai Leonov), and the husky one to his right "Mexico City Mystery Man," or perhaps, KGB agent Yuri Moskalev.

You do realize that these same two guys were photographed near the front entrance of the Soviet Embassy only eleven minutes apart on October 2, 1963, don't you?  One day after someone impersonated "Lee Oswald" over the phone?

--  Tommy  :sun

 

Here's the guy the CIA labelled "LEON," as in Leonov

Image result for nikolai leonov blond oswald

Image result for nikolai leonov blond oswald

Image result for nikolai leonov blond oswald

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)

Could you have selected the left photo because there's so much detail missing, Jim? And therefore, there's "similarities" but you can now say they didn't look all that much a like?

Here's an animated GIF.  Give it a moment because it's quite a large file and may take a moment to load.  But watch the transformation.  It sure looks like the same person to me - the younger one filled out in the face somewhat, probably due to working out in the military; and the later one, 4 years later.  Thinner (no longer working out), no more military style hair cut. They both even have that slight rounded shape of hair on the sides of their head even if the younger one has that buzz cut with a lot of his side hair missing.

The ears are the same; the mouth is the same.  It's the same person Jim, not clones separated thousands of miles apart by some stroke of luck brought together by the super secret agency.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-CxdS03TDM3dFJ1aGM

Edited by Michael Walton

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Nicely done Michael 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Nicely done Michael 

I agree.

The eyebrows, for example, are a perfect match.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)

"Harvey's English speaking skills and lack of foreign accent are too good for it to be his second language. Therefore he must be a native English speaker."

This is a difficult case to make. Because if we accept that, then we have to accept the following as well:

"Harvey's Russian speaking skills and lack of foreign accent are too good for it to be his second language. Therefore he must be a native Russian speaker."

And vice versa.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Posted (edited)

Michael....

That is an interesting gif, and the faces have more similarities than I expected.  But the eyebrows are much bushier on the arrest photo and the ears are different heights, for example.

And regardless of the photographic interpretations, the documentary evidence for two Oswalds is really profound.

EDIT: For the purpose of discussing this, Michael, let's say the two images in your gif are of the same person.  So what are they?  The first image is from the passport Harvey Oswald used for his false defection in 1959.  The second is Harvey's arrest photo.

John and I had always assumed that Harvey put Lee's photo on his passport application.  But if it is actually a picture of Harvey, all that proves is that he used his own photo instead of Lee's. It hardly disproves the Harvey and Lee evidence.  See, as one example, my next post.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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