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Thomas Graves

A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

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On 6/15/2017 at 7:46 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:
On 6/15/2017 at 0:59 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

My Final Conclusion: Oswald was not a wife beater. But he may have hit Marina once.

Accepting your analysis for the sake of argument, if he hit her once he is a wife beater.


No, he's not.

 

wife beat·er
/ˈwīfˌbēdər/
noun   
US    informal
noun: wife beater; plural noun: wife beaters; noun: wifebeater; plural noun: wifebeaters
  1.  a man who regularly or habitually hits his wife or female partner.
     

Source: OxfordDictionairies.com

 

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Just now, Sandy Larsen said:


No, he's not.

 

wife beat·er
/ˈwīfˌbēdər/
noun   
US    informal
noun: wife beater; plural noun: wife beaters; noun: wifebeater; plural noun: wifebeaters
  1.  a man who regularly or habitually hits his wife or female partner.
     

Source: OxfordDictionairies.com

 

Well it's just semantics but as I said tell, it to the judge. And I believe the evidence shows clearly that LHO abused his wife. You have to ignore a whole bunch of evidence and justify reasons for doing so.

Have a good weekend.

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3 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Jim and Dave,

We have made or arguments and I am happy to let the reads here decide for themselves on this point.

Thanks

Works for me Tracy...

Enjoy the weekend if you're somewhere not hitting 107... as I am

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6 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Well it's just semantics but as I said tell, it to the judge. And I believe the evidence shows clearly that LHO abused his wife. You have to ignore a whole bunch of evidence and justify reasons for doing so.


I ignored the malicious gossip from a single person. There is zero evidence corroborating his over-the-top claims.

Plus I ignored George de Mohrenschildt's testimony because it proved to be factually incorrect, and was disputed by his own wife.


Do you believe there is no such thing as malicious gossip? If so I have a story for you. One day last year my wife came home from work and, out of habit, locked the door behind her. She asked me where our six-year-old daughter was. I told her she was playing at the next door neighbor's house. She asked me to unlock the door for her, which I did right away.

Several weeks later, one of the neighbors called Child Protective Services (CPS) on us, and CPS did a thorough investigation on us. Apparently our daughter tried to open the door during those few seconds it was locked, and told a neighbor it was locked. And apparently gossip ensued and after some time became blown out of proportion. Out of proportion enough that one our neighbors felt that we were neglecting our child. Which was bullxxxx.

We actually are great parents, and that was the finding of CPS. But, as you can see, people can take something small and blow it all out of proportion. With their malicious gossip.

 

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3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Do you believe there is no such thing as malicious gossip?

Yes, but I don't believe LHO was a victim of it. Even his mother believed he hit Marina and she constantly made excuses for him.

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1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:
5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Do you believe there is no such thing as malicious gossip?

Yes, but I don't believe LHO was a victim of it.


Of course you don't. You only believe the worst about LHO.

 

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Even his mother believed he hit Marina....


Yes... once!  But that is not bad enough for you, is it. So you choose to believe the one and only highly damning "witness." The one who was clearly passing malicious gossip.

I'm glad you don't live in my neighborhood.
 

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

....and she constantly made excuses for him.


Oh really? What other excuses?


Other than for that one guy passing the obviously trumped-up malicious gossip, I could find no witness to Oswald being a violent person. Let's look at what some said about Oswald:

Marina herself:

Mr. McDONALD. During this time in the Soviet Union, did Lee Harvey Oswald ever demonstrate any violent tendencies, any antisocial tendencies, either to you personally or in general?

Mrs. PORTER. Well, he would lose temper a few times, but he was pretty good at controlling it. You know naturally during the marriage husband and wife do fuss sometimes.

Mr. McDONALD. But it is your testimony that his behavior was not-

Mrs. PORTER. He wasn't really violent, no.

 

Jeane de Mohrenschildt:

Mr. JENNER. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she learned English, couldn't he?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course, that is what we told him. We said, "You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in this country without the language, she cannot do anything." He was strange in many, many ways.
But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness.

 

Lillian Murret (Oswald's Aunt):

Mr. JENNER - During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual?

Mrs. MURRET - Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. Of course now, I don't know, what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house.

Mr. JENNER - But you had no impression of him as being a violent person?

Mrs. MURRET – No; not at all.

 

Ruth Paine:

Representative BOGGS - How well did you know Lee Oswald?

Mrs. PAINE - Insufficiently well.

Representative BOGGS - What do you mean by that?

Mrs. PAINE - Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't perceive him as a violent man.

Representative BOGGS – You saw no evidence of violence in him at any time?

Mrs. PAINE – No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck her. I never heard from her of any violence from him.

 

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Sandy,

Not every person was a witness to the abuse. And you can go to Marina & Lee and read about the abuse in detail. But both sides have made their case here and in the other thread, I'll let the readers decide. Since this is a CT forum, most will probably side with you.

Edited by W. Tracy Parnell

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Another gem from HarveyandLee.net

DISAPPEARING NYC SCHOOL RECORDS


John Pic told the Warren Commission that in 1952 LHO attended a school in the NYC Borough of Manhattan, “located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him. “

Robert Oswald wrote that his brother also attended school in Manhattan.  On page 63 of his book LEE, Robert writes: “Lee entered the 8th grade at P.S. 44 on Columbus Ave. at 76th St.”  This address was  in Manhattan, as was the location “on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue” that John Pic described.  


William%20J.%20O'Shea%20PS%20%2344%20Man

P.S. 44 in Manhattan today (Google image)

According to the Warren Commission, “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended school only in the Borough of Bronx during this period, principally at P.S. 44 in the Bronx. (NYC repeats public school numbers in the various boroughs.)
 

PS%2044%20Bronx.jpg

P.S. 44 in the Bronx today (Google image)

 

If John Pic and Robert Oswald were right, one “Lee Harvey Oswald” was attending school in Manhattan while another “LHO” (according to published WC docs) was at school in the Bronx.  But what happened to the Manhattan school records?

Around 1995, John Armstrong discovered that the WC may have suspected something was wrong with the black and white COPIES of Oswald’s school records provided by the FBI.  John wrote that the WC asked the FBI to “obtain Oswald's original school and court records, but the Bureau did not comply. The Commission then wrote to New York Mayor Robert Wagner and asked his office for help in obtaining Oswald's original school records. Mayor Wagner's office responded to the Commission's request by enclosing copies of Oswald's New York school records and advising that the original court records had been turned over to SA John Malone personally by Judge Florence Kelley.”  But, of course the ORIGINAL records all disappeared, replaced by copies.  Much more about these disappearing records can be found on pp. 62-65 of Harvey and Lee.

John was unable to locate any ORIGINAL school records for “Lee Harvey Oswald” at the National Archives.  In 1995, the ARRB reached the same conclusion.
 

ARRB_copies.jpg?dl=0

 

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4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John Pic told the Warren Commission that in 1952 LHO attended a school in the NYC Borough of Manhattan, “located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him. “

Robert Oswald wrote that his brother also attended school in Manhattan.  On page 63 of his book LEE, Robert writes: “Lee entered the 8th grade at P.S. 44 on Columbus Ave. at 76th St.”  This address was  in Manhattan, as was the location “on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue” that John Pic described.  

John and Robert provided some important information. However, they are wrong in this instance. LHO attended Trinity Lutheran, PS 117 and PS 44, all in the Bronx.

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Of course, Tracy isn't suspicious of anything in this case.  Even if a footnote jumped out of the WCR, put on a sock and shoe, and stepped on his foot he'd just say something like, "Happens all the time with these pesky notes."

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9 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Sandy,

Not every person was a witness to the abuse. And you can go to Marina & Lee and read about the abuse in detail. But both sides have made their case here and in the other thread, I'll let the readers decide. Since this is a CT forum, most will probably side with you.


Tracy,

You seem to think that conspiracy researchers are looking to exonerate Oswald of guilt in anything he did. That is not the case. We are here looking for the truth.

 

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15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Tracy,

You seem to think that conspiracy researchers are looking to exonerate Oswald of guilt in anything he did. That is not the case. We are here looking for the truth.

 

OK Sandy, good to know.

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FBI agents, within hours of the assassination, began confiscating the school and teen-aged employment records of Lee Harvey Oswald.  This was done before any known effort was made to determine if the alleged assassin had accomplices or if any other members of the U.S. government were targeted.

A biography of “Lee Harvey Oswald” as a child and teenager eventually was created by the Warren Commission based largely of alleged copies of the original documents which disappeared while in FBI custody.  Among the witnesses who contradicted the Warren Commission’s official biography were “Lee Harvey Oswald’s”  mother Marguerite, his brother Robert, his half-brother John Pic, and school and work witnesses and friends including Maury Goodman, Louis Marzialle, Rita Paveur, Francis Mouton, Frank DiBenedetto, Gloria Callaghan, Palmer McBride, Frank Kudlaty, Fran Schubert, Myra DaRouse, Doug Gann, Bobby Pitts, Mark Summers, William Wulf, Walter Gehrke, Milton Kurian, Henry Timmer, and undoubtedly others not occurring to me at the moment.

Members of the Warren Commission must have suspected something was wrong with the copies of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” school records, because they requested originals from the FBI, which ignored the request.  John Armstrong and the ARRB confirmed that there were no original school records whatsoever in the huge collection of documents in the JFK collection at the National Archives.
 

ARRB_copies.jpg?dl=0

WHY WERE “OSWALD’S” ORIGINAL SCHOOL AND OTHER RECORDS CONFISCATED AND DESTROYED? 

WHAT WAS THE FBI HIDING ABOUT “LEE HARVEY OSWALD’S” CHILDHOOD BIOGRAPHY?
 

 

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Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

Members of the Warren Commission must have suspected something was wrong with the copies of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” school records, because they requested originals from the FBI, which ignored the request.

Would Jim be able to provide a source for this claim, preferably with a link if the relevant document is available online?

Greg Parker has pointed out an FBI memo from Alex Rosen to Alan Belmont on 27 January 1964 that appears to contradict Jim's claim. The memo states that:

Quote

Mr Rankin and Mr Willens [of the Warren Commission] were advised ... that we [the FBI] had not asked for original documents, such as school records or employment records. They were told that if the Commission desired original records in any instance and would make it known, the Bureau would attempt to obtain such original documents.

The memo also points out that, at least in the case of New York, "original documents were not available because of certain regulations."

( https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=61490&relPageId=284 )

In other words, there is nothing sinister about the absence of original school records, and there is no reason to suppose that anyone at "the Warren Commission must have suspected something was wrong with the copies of Lee Harvey Oswald's school records".

As a general rule, you should never believe an unsourced claim promoting the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' fantasy. If for some bizarre reason you are tempted to believe one of Jim's claims, always check Greg's forum first:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-the-harvey-lee-evidence

The fact that Jim presents his final two claims in shouty bold capitals gives a strong clue that the claims are merely the usual unsupported guesswork:

 

Quote

WHY WERE "OSWALD'S" ORIGINAL SCHOOL AND OTHER RECORDS CONFISCATED AND DESTROYED?

They weren't, though, were they?
 

Quote

WHAT WAS THE FBI HIDING ABOUT "LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S CHILDHOOD BIOGRAPHY?

Evidently nothing.

 

 


 

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The WC requested Oswald's original New York school records

As I began sorting through New York school and court records, I realized that

the Warren Commission may also have been aware of conflicting records. They asked

the FBI to obtain Oswald's original school and court records, but the Bureau did not

comply. The Commission then wrote to New York Mayor Robert Wagner and asked his

office for help in obtaining Oswald's original school records.

 

Mayor Wagner's office responded to the Commission's request by enclosing

copies of Oswald's New York school records and advising that the original court records

had been turned over to SA John Malone personally by Judge Florence Kelley. 53-09 It

appeared the original records disappeared while in SA Malone's custody, so I decided

to place all available documentation and correspondence in chronological order to see

if my thoughts were correct.

 

Oswald's school records disappeared while in FBI custody

 

Judge Florence Kelley was the Administrative Judge of the Family Court of the

State of New York in 1963, and the Oswald case file (#23979) was under her supervision.

After the assassination she conferred with superior court judges and together they de­-

cided the Oswald file would be given to the Special Agent in charge of the FBI's New

York office, John Malone.

 

On November 27, 1963 Judge Kelley allowed SAIC Malone to review the

Oswald file in her chambers and in her presence. She permitted him to take notes of

pertinent portions, but would not permit the file to be removed from her office or copied.

A few days later she conferred with the Presiding Justice of the Appellate Division,

Bernard Botein, and with his approval agreed to turn over all original court records in

possession of the Family Court to SAIC Malone.

 

On December 2, 1963 Judge Kelley personally gave the Oswald file to Malone

with the condition that it be transmitted immediately to the Warren Commission. Three

days later, on December 5, 1963, FBI SA Michael O'Rourke advised the Secret Service

the file had been sent to the Warren Commission. On December 10, eight days after Judge

Kelley turned her court file over to the FBI, an internal FBI memo relating to the Files

of Domestic Relations Court states, "rec'd by Assist Dir. John Malone 11/27-12/2." From

this memo and Judge Kelley's statement, it is clear that Judge Kelley gave the original

court file to SAIC Malone.

 

In preparation for the testimony of Marguerite Oswald in February 1964, the

Warren Commission requested Oswald's original New York school and court records

from Mayor Wagner of New York City. On February 4, Miss Bernice McCrae of the

Mayors office spoke with Judge Kelley, who advised that she had given the original

records to SAIC John Malone.

 

Miss McCrae then telephoned the FBI's New York Office. She asked if the

original records in the Oswald file had, in fact, been turned over to the Warren Commis­-

sion. Miss McCrae never received an answer. Later that afternoon she wrote a letter on

behalf of Mayor Wagner to Mr. Rankin of Warren Commission which stated, "I am at­

taching to this letter copies of the school records .... Judge Florence Kelley informed me

she turned over all original records in the possession of the Family Court dealing with

the case of Lee Harvey Oswald to John F. Malone, Assistant Director in Charge of the

New York City office of the FBI."42There is no evidence or documentation whatsoever that

Malone turned the original court file over to the Warren Commission.

 

On February 7, at 3:37 pm, FBI Inspector J. R. Malley telephoned the FBI's

New York office and spoke to the Assistant Special Agent in Charge, W. M. Alexander,

about the original court records. Malley advised that FBI headquarters in Washington

had no information that indicated the original documents had been received from New

York and he asked Alexander to check further.

 

At 3:45 pm Alexander telephoned Malley and advised that SAIC Malone. his

supervisor. had photographed the entire file and that copies of the file had been sent to

FBI headquarters in Washington. Alexander said there was no record that photographs

were sent to FBI headquarters, but that additional photographs of the file were available.

Malley then asked that two copies of the photographs be sent immediately to his atten­

tion at FBI Headquarters in Washington.

 

There is no indication that Inspector Malley made any additional inquiries into

the fate of the original court files, which were last seen by Judge Kelley when she per­

sonally handed them to SAIC John Malone. Whenever original records are destroyed and only

copies or photographs remain, it is probable that the original documents were altered and then

photocopied.

 

Psychiatric and court records disappeared while in FBI custody

 

The original psychiatric records relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, contained in

Judge Kelley's court file, also disappeared while in FBI custody. On December 4, 1963

FBI agent John James O'Flaherty sent "photographic reproductions" of Oswald's psy­

chiatric examination to his boss, SAIC John Malone.

 

On December 10, eight days after Judge Kelley turned her court file over to the

FBI, an internal FBI memo relating to the Files of Domestic Relations Court stated

"rec'd by Assist Dir. John Malone 11/27-12/2." Malone reported that the FBI's New York

office had acquired photographic reproductions (not originals) of Oswald's psychiatric

examination.

 

On December 30, the FBI allegedly acquired copies of Calendar of Bureau

Hearings, Calendar of Court Prosecutions, and Central Clearance Bureau Social Services

Exchange Records re: Lee Harvey Oswald, but none of the original documents were located.

 

If the Warren Commission was serious about locating Oswald's original psychi­

atric records, they could have begun with SA John James O'Flaherty. They could have

asked O'Flaherty if the "photographic reproductions" he made and sent to his boss were

made from the original psychiatric records. They then should have asked O'Flaherty's

boss, SAIC John Malone, what happed to the original records given to him by Judge

Kelley.

 

There is no doubt the FBI had possession of Oswald's original school records

and court files and withheld the originals from the Warren Commission. When they pro­

vided copies of the documents to the Commission I wondered if they gave the Commis­

sion all of the documents received from Judge Kelley or only some of the documents. I

also wondered the extent to which some or all of the copies they provided to the Com­

mission had been altered or manipulated.

 

NOTE: The New York office of the FBI received the original court and school records

from Judge Florence Kelley and probably sent them to FBI headquarters in Washington,

DC. The original records were probably in their possession when the Warren Commis­-

sion requested them in 1964, but provided only photographic reproductions to the Com­-

mission. The original New York school, court, and psychiatric records disappeared and

have never been located.

 

On September 8, 1995 Anne Buttimer, of the ARRB, began reviewing all Warren Com­

mission exhibits and FBI files pertaining to Lee Harvey Oswald to determine what ori-

nal documents were already in the collection (National Archives). She wrote, "New York

City School records. There are copies in the file along with a 1964 letter from the mayor

of New York, Mayor Wagner, to Lee Rankin, stating that all of LHO's NYC school records

were given to the FBI in New York City, and that it was Mayor Wagner's understand­-

ing that the FBI in NY turned the originals over to the Warren Commission."

 

On February 14, 1996 Doug Horne of the ARRB wrote a memo to Jeremy Gunn and

said, "I propose that the Oswald project be defined as follows: A. Identify, locate and

acquire for the archives Oswald's original school records, if they still exist. " Horne failed

to locate a single one of Oswald's original New York school or court records.

 

Joe Freeman, a Washington, DC-based private investigator working/or the ARRB, was

assigned the task (by ARRB staff member Doug Horne) of locating and reviewing all

original documents relating to Oswald's biography. After an exhaustive search, Freeman

wrote a memo that stated, "All the school records and employment records I looked at in

the Warren Commission Exhibit files at Archives II were copies. not originals. "43 53-08

 

The FBI fails to investigate Oswald's background

 

Fallowing the assassination the FBI obtained the names of all of Oswald's class­

mates and teachers from PS #44, according to school Principal Nicholas Cicchetti, but

failed to provide reports of those interviews to the Warren Commission.44

 

Commission attorney John Ely realized the FBI was providing little information

on Oswald's background. After reading a detailed description of Oswald's life in Fort

Worth, in Life Magazine, he wrote a memo to his boss and said, "We're getting more

information from Life Magazine than we are from the FBI." In another memo Ely

wrote, "Once again let me urge that we should not have to rely upon Life Magazine for

such a list. The FBI should undertake a systematic identification and interview of

Oswald's closest school friends. "45 53-02

 

But the Commission ignored Ely's memo, and never pressured the Bureau to

interview Oswald's school friends in New York. In addition, the FBI failed to obtain re­

port cards, class photos, and not a single yearbook from any of the New York Schools.

The only original item which the Commission had from New York was a photograph of

Oswald standing in front of an iron fence at the Bronx Zoo, which appeared in the Feb­

ruary 21, 1964 edition of Life Magazine.

--from Harvey and Lee, pp. 62-65, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

 

 

 

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NYC3.jpg?dl=0

 

NYC4.jpg?dl=0

 

NYC5.jpg?dl=0

 

ARRB_copies.jpg?dl=0

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