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Steve Thomas

Did Marina order the rifle?

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I have been sitting on this for a while. It started with the fact that Lee Oswald freely admitted to possessing the Alek Hidell Selective Service card, but either "denied", or "refused to admit" that the signature on the card was his. That puzzled me. I ended up with the DeMohrenschildt "Hunter For Fascists" rifle photo. There are things that have me troubled. If my reasoning is wrong, or if I've gotten a fact wrong, please let me know.

 

  1. Oswald admitted he had the Alek James Hidell Selective Service card, bur either “denied” or “declined to admit” that the signature was his.

  2. Marina admitted to signing the name “Hidell” to “two or three things” with the name “Hidell” that were not pamphlets.

  3. Marina said on at least three occasions that they were living on Neely St. in January, and initially, that she had seen Lee cleaning the rifle in January (which she later corrected to mean she saw it for the first time in March).

  4. The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

  5. The troubling instances of evidence in this case in Marina Oswald's possession appearing after they have been seized and searches by the Dallas Police

 

  1. Oswald either denied, or declined to admit that the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card was his.

 

Manning Clements. Appendix XI of Warren Report. Page 614.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=638&tab=page

“Oswald declined to explain his possession of a photograph of a Selective Service card in the name of “Alek James Hiddell”.

 

WC testimony of Manning Clements:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/clements.htm

 

Mr. STERN. What did he say about that card?
Mr. CLEMENTS. He declined to answer any questions as to the reason of his possession of it.

 

In his FBI Report concerning Oswald's second interview on the 23rd, James Bookhout wrote:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=647&tab=page

“With regard to Selective Service Card in the possession of Oswald bearing photograph of Oswald and the name of Alek James Hidell, Oswald admitted that he carried this Selective Service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. He further declined to state the purpose of carrying same or any use he has made of same.”

 

James Bookhout. Warren Report. Appendix XI. Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=647&tab=page


 

Mr. BOOKHOUT - One specific question was with regard to the selective service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to state the purpose of carrying same, and---or any use he made of same.

 

WC testimony of James Bookhout:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bookhout.htm

 

Mr. STERN - What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss.

 

Thomas Kelley. Appendix XI of Warren Report. Page 627.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=651&tab=page

“At this time, Captain Fritz showed a Selective Service card that was taken out of his wallet which bore the name of “Alex Hidell. Oswald refused to discuss this after being asked for an explanation of it, both by Fritz and by James Bookhout, the FBI Agent.”

 

The interrogation on Sunday the 24th. Harry Holmes WC testimony:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm

 

'Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it, where it showed A. J. Hidell."
"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only time that he flared up. “

 

What I am trying to figure out, is why Oswald didn't denounce the Hidell ID in as strong a terms as he denounced the photos of him with a rifle.
He didn't say, "The card's a fraud and I'll be able to prove it at a later time."

Supposedly, Oswald:

1) Admitted the card was in his possession;
2) Denied that the signature was his; and,
3) Refused to discuss it further

Is Oswald trying to tell us something?

If the card was supposed to be used for identification purposes, do we know of any case where it
was used as a form of ID?
If not, then what was its purpose?


There is this WC testimony from Will Fritz:


 

Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name Alek Hidell?
Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New Orleans that he had used sometimes. One of the cards looked like it might have been altered a little bit and one of them I believe was the Fair Play for Cuba and one looked like a social security card or something.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. We have pictures of those cards here. You no doubt have them.
Mr. BALL. Yes. We have them. Did he say that he had used that as a name?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that is a name he picked up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. Did he say----
Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell him some things and tell me some things.
Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it?
Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it.


 

There are a couple of things in here that interest me.

1) There are at least three people who say that they saw and questioned Oswald about the Hidell ID on Friday night: Detective Guy Rose, FBI Agent Manning Clements, and H&R Division Captain Will Fritz.. I think that should answer the question of when the Hidell ID emerged.

2) The police officer Fritz refers to. To me, there seems to be a mystery police officer in the mix here.

3) Oswald admits to having the Hidell ID card in his possession, and either "declines to admit", or "denies" that the signature is his; and then refuses to discuss it further. Fritz said that Oswald said "he had used it sometimes", but I have yet to discover what it was ever used for.

 

Fritz's Interrogation Notes:

http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html

 

2nd Interview November 23rd 10:35 – 11:34

Present Were:

T.J. Kelly

Robert Nash

Grant??

B.O. and myself

Boyd + Hall

B.O. asks about Heidel selective service card – admits having- would not admit signature – wouldn't say why he had it.

 

  1. Marina's statements that she signed several things with the name, “Hidell” and that not all of them were pamphlets.

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald June 11, 1964.

Warren Commission Hearings, Volume V pp. 401-402

https://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol5/page401.php

 

Mr. Dulles. Did you ever sign any more such cards with the name "Hidell"?
Mrs. Oswald. Only this one.
Mr. Dulles. And you never signed the name "Hidell" on any other paper at any time?
Mrs. Oswald. Only once.
 
Mr. Dulles. Did you ever sign the name Hidell at any subsequent time to any document?
Mr. Mckenzie. If you recall signing it. Do you recall signing his name to any other document?
Mrs. Oswald. I only remember this one occasion.
 
Mr. Dulles. Did you make some practice runs of writing this name before you actually put it on the card? Mrs. Oswald.
Yes; because it was difficult for me to write English properly.
Mr. Dulles. So you mean you wrote it several times on another sheet of paper and then put it on this card?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. Was there anybody else present at the time of this incident?
Mrs. Oswald. No; only Lee.
Representative Ford. Did he have you sign only one card?
Mrs. Oswald. This was the only time when I--when Lee asked me to do this and I did it. I might have signed two or--- cards and not just one but there weren't a great many.
Representative Ford. Did the other cards have someone else's name besides Lee Harvey Oswald on it?
Mrs. Oswald. No; only Lee Oswald.
Representative Ford. But you think you might have signed more than one such card?
Mrs. Oswald. Maybe two, three. This is just 1 day when I was signing this. It just happened on one occasion.

 

Marina's 1969 testimony at the Clay Shaw trial:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/marinash.htm

 

Q: Did you sign anything for him down here?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What did you sign?

A: Some kind of paper about something, but I don't remember what it was.

Q: Would you recall --

A: The name Hidell.

Q: Hidell?

A: Yes.

Q: You signed the name, Hidell?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And what was your purpose of doing that?

A: He asked me to do it and I refused, and then he forced me to do it.

Q: What do you mean, forced you?

A: He threatened me if I wouldn't do it he use, you know -- how shall I say?

Q: Physical threats?

A: Physical threats, yes, sir.


 

CE 2726 p. 105

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page

 

is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card.
The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting.

These handwriting examples can be found in Volume XVII of the Hearings and Exhibits here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134


They were introduced during Ruth Paine's WC testimony in Volume II.

 

From Marina's HSCA Deposition:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

Q. Did he ask you to put your name on any of the leaflets ?
A. Well, he asked me to put my name on something but I didn't think it was those leaflets.

Q. What name did they have on the pamphlets? Did Lee have his name on the pamphlets?
A. I do not recall that the pamphlets have any name on them. I re- member that Lee used to sign his name different than his real name on some things but which things they were I do not recall right now.

3) Marina's statements about living on Neely St. in January, 1963

Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII

Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445).

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

 

Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197).

 

On February 18, 1964 she told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

 

 

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street.
Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth?
Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance.

 

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? (From Fort Worth to Elsbeth)
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

___________________________________________

 

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year.
I don't remember exactly.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

 

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.

 

 

Mr. JENNER - Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE - No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER - I will get to that in a moment.

 

Mr. JENNER - You met Marina for the first time when.
Mrs. PAINE - I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

Mr. JENNER - Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE - I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I Judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.

 

Mrs. PAINE - It was Friday evening.
Mr. JENNER - Friday evening?
Mrs. PAINE - The 22d was Friday

 

In her HSCA testimony, Marina couldn't remember the first time she saw the rifle.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

Marina's HSCA testimony

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

 

When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind.

Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States.

Mr. McDONALD. When you refer to the "closet," what apartment are you referring to? At what apartment are we talking about?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not recall any apartment, but maybe one in Dallas.
Mr. McDONALD. The one on Neely Street?
Mrs. PORTER. Neely Street; yes.

Mr. McDONALD. Did you ask him where he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't.


TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
The President's Commission met at 10 a.m. on February 6, 1964

 

Mr. THORNE. Exhibit 105 is the original of a notebook containing various writings in English and in Russian
Mrs. OSWALD. This is when Lee was getting ready to go to Russia, and he made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him.
Further, I don't know what he had written in there.
Mr. DULLES. Was this the time he went or the time he didn't go?
Mrs. OSWALD. When he didn't--when he intended to.
Mr. RANKIN. In Exhibit 105, Mrs. Oswald, I will ask you if you noted that your husband had listed in that "Gun and case, Price 24 REC. 17."
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what that is. Unfortunately, I cannot help. I don't know what this means.
Mr. RANKIN. But you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Now I see it.
Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 105.

 

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 135.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 135, and received in evidence.)
Mr. RANKIN. I call the Commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $10 notation--"Check for $29.95, A. G. Hidell, age 28, post office box 2915, Dallas, Texas"
And it is marked, "One quantity. Point 38 ST. W. 2 inch barrel, 29.95." and underlined is 29.95, and an arrow at that point.

 

Exhibit 135 is an order form for the pistol, not the rifle.

 

CE 773 was the Klein's Order Form for the Rifle

CE 788 was the Postal Money Order for the Rifle

 

She is not shown either the Hidell Selective Service card or the rifle order form.

 

On three separate occasions that I have found, Marina says that the Oswalds were living on Neely Street in January, 1963.


 

(1) Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm


 

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures.


 

I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.

 

Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what?
Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week.

 

Where was the rifle between Sunday and Wednesday – the day of the shooting?


 

(2) During her testimony on February 4th, Marina was asked and answered:

 

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine?
Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be 1963?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

 

3) Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXIICurrent Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445).

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

 

This is cross referenced to DL 100-10461 (4)

 

On February 17, 1964 Marina was interviewed by FBI Special Agents Anatole Boguslav and Wallace Heitman. In their writeup of that interview done on the 18th, they wrote:

 

“She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963 at the Neely Street address, he, (Lee Harvey Oswald) was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day.”

(page 443 of CD 735).

 

For whatever reason, this conflicts with the official record as we know it.. Supposedly the Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12th.

CE 1404 - FBI reports dated February 22 and 25, 1964, of interviews with Marina Oswald (CD 735, pp. 446-453).

 

On February 18, 1964 she was again interviewed by Agents Boguslav and Heitman. She told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. The Agents wrote a Report of this interview on February 22, 1964.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

(This is on page 446 of CD 735)

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing---it isn't
as if he said, "Well, today I am going"---it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."
But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice."

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at Neely Street---that is, that it was gone?

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.

 

Mr. RANKIN. When you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport---Love Field?
Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you learn about it? Did you see it some place in the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open. At first I think---I saw some package up on the top shelf, and I think that that was the rifle. But I didn't know. And apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room.
Mr. RANKIN. When you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, it did not have a scope on it.

 

I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.

 

So, let me see if I've got this straight.

Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased.

She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March.

It was kept out in the open, but maybe he kept it outside.

She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back.

Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime.

She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up?

When she saw the rifle, it didn't have a scope on it, but knew it had a scope because she recognized it.

I read that Love Field is something like six miles from where they lived on Neely St., so he would have had to have taken the bus, unless someone was giving him rides – all the time while he working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Lee was riding a bus for six miles with a rifle, several times.

 

Makes you wonder.

 

4) The handwriting experts commissioned by the HSCA were not asked to analyze the signature on the Hidell Selective Service card, or to compare the signature on the rifle order form with the signature on the DeMohrenschildt rifle photo.

 

HSCA VOLUME VIII HANDWRITING ANALYSIS OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD p. 223

March, 1979

 

http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/hscahand.htm

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=227&tab=page

 

The HSCA submitted 63 samples from 50 documents items to handwriting experts JOSEPH P. MC NALLY and DAVID J. PURTELL and CHARLES C. SCOTT

 

Subsequently, the committee asked Puttell and McNally to look at whether the signature "A. J. Hidell" on the June 15, 1963, Fair Play for Cuba card was written by Marina Oswald.

Purtell and McNally conclude the name "A. J. Hidell" was written on the 1963 Fair Play for Cuba card by the same person who wrote the exemplars attributed to Marina Oswald.

 

(This doesn't tell us much. Marina admitted to having signed the FPFC card in her June 11,1964 WC testimony, and the FBI confirmed that it was her signature in Hoover's June 17, 1964 letter)

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0071a.htm

 

Item# 29 March 12, 1963. U.S. postal money order No. bearing handwritten fill-ins as follows: Klein's Sporting Goods, A. Hidell, P.O. Box 2915. Dallas, Tex. Blue ink, ballpoint pen. Location: Archives. (CE 788; JFK exhibit F-509A and 509B.)

 

Item# 30 March 12, 1963. Enlargement of microfilm reproduction of Klein's order form for rifle from A. Hidell, superimposed on envelop, postmarked March 12, 1963, addressed to Klein's, Dept. 358, 227 W. Washington Street, Chicago 6, Ill., with return address: A. Hidell. P.O. Box 2915, Dallas, Tex. Location:Archives. (CE 773: Cadigan's exhibit 1; JFK exhibit F-504.)

 

Item# 31 DeMohrenschildt photograph of Oswald with rifle. On the back of the photograph is a handwritten notation reading "To my friend George from Lee Oswald 5/IV/63" and, in Russian, the statement "Copyright G de M." Also in Russian is writing which translated as "'Killer of Fascists--Ha-Ha-Ha!!" Obtained from George DeMohrenschildt after his death in 1977. HSCA Exhibits F-183 and F-184.

 

Item# 33 June 15, 1963. Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans chapter, signed Lee H. Oswald, with A.J. Hidell signing as chapter president. Found in Oswald's wallet on the day of his arrest. Location: Archives. (JFK exhibit F-505.)

 

Item# 54 Undated. Exemplar writing of Marina Oswald. including seven slips of paper containing the writing "A. J. Hidell." Location: Archives, HSCA. 232

(These are on pages 374 and 375 of Volume VIII of the HSCA Appendix Volumes)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961

 

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF JOSEPH P. MC NALLY

  1. The name, "A. J. Hidell" on the Fair Play for Cuba card (item 33) was examined and compared with the exemplar writings of Marina Oswald (item 54). It was determined that. the "A. Hidell" of the card (item 33) was written by Marina Oswald (as in item 54). The writing pattern of the signature on the card corresponds with that of the name "A. J. Hidell" as written by Marina Oswald on item 54. The Hidell signature in question is written with the same degree of writing skill as evinced by Marina Oswald. The slant, speed, proportions, et cetera, of the Hidell signature is matched in the writings of Marina Oswald. The design, form, and execution of stroke making up the individual letters of the Hidell signature in question (item 33) correspond to those of the letters in the writing of Marina Oswald (item 54). (47)

     

He said the signature and writing on the back of Item# 31 is Oswald's.

 

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF DAVID J. PURTELL

(70) The examiner is of the opinion that the person who executed the handwriting on item 54 wrote the name, "A. J. Hidell" on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee card (item 33).

Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes.

The signature on the back of Item# 31 is Oswald's. He did not say that the signature on the back of Item# 29 matches the signature on the back of Item# 31. He was not asked to compare the signatures on Item# 54 with the signatures on Item#'s 29 or 31.

 

FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS OF CHARLES C. SCOTT

(139) (Question. Although they purport to be the handwriting of one Hidell, were the postal money order (item 29) and the envelope addressed to Kleins (item 30) actually written by the person who wrote the signatures and other writings which purport to be Oswald's? (140) Opinion. The original of the money order (item 29) was examined and compared with the original writings purporting to be Oswald's. I am of the opinion that the fill-ins on the face of this money order are in the handwriting of the same person as the signatures and writings purporting to be Oswald's.

 

(He used the term “fill ins”. He did not say signature.)

 

The writing on the money order conforms with the writing purporting to be that of Oswald on the other documents in every material way, including writing movement and rhythm (L) as well as the pictorial aspects of form or design, proportions, alignment, slant, and connections. It is also significant that the writing on this money order shows no indication of being a mere copy or imitation of the writing purporting to be that of Oswald. This money order was submitted in the original, and hence it was possible to give it a complete microscopic examination and to study it under the infrared image converter. (141)

 

What is not included in this batch however, is the Selective Service card in the name of Hidell.

 

What was not done was to compare the signatures on the Hidell Selective Service card with the signature on the rifle's postal money order.

 

Compare the signatures of the Hidell Selective Service Card on CE 796 (Which is a photograph of CE 795)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=708&tab=page

 

with the Hidell Signature on the Hidell Postal Service Money Order on CE 788.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=703&tab=page

 

  1. The “Hunter For Fascists” photograph in the possession of George DeMohrenschildt

 

CE 183

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=561&tab=page

 

Letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to Marguerite Oswald, dated October 22, 1959, with envelope. (The year 1959 is obviously a mistake). He mentions Marina in the letter. He spells Marina's maiden name as Proosakova. The translator spells it Proosakava. In his letter he writes, “For my birthday, Marina sent me a gold and silver cup with the inscription, “To my Dear Husband on his birthday 18/X/61 very nice don't you think, Marina is on her vacation (sic) now, she is spending it with her aunt in the city of “KHARKOV” about 600 miles South East of here.... We both agreeded (sic) that she should go to a new enviroment (sic) on her vaction (sic)...”

 

In the body of the letter, Lee Oswald uses the Americanized version of the date, October 22, 1959, but the gold and silver cup is inscribed with the Cryllic date of 18/X/61. This makes me think of the controversy over the DeMohrenschildt, “Hunter For Fascists” photograph. Also, in October, Lee and Marina had only been married for six months. Whey would they both agree that she should take her vacation 600 miles away? (My own thought is that with their astrological signs being squared, they really didn't get along. I wonder why they got married in the first place).


CE 13 Letter from Lee Oswald to the Russian Embassy in Washington. He uses the Americanized version of the date, July 1, 1963.

CE 14 Letter from Marina Oswald to the Russian Embassy. Uses the Cryllic version of the date, July 8, 1963


HSCA testimony of Marina Oswald (Porter)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar3.htm


 

Mr. SAWYER - Referring now to the writing on the reverse side of the picture that is up there on the board, what do those top two lines say in Russian? Can you tell me?
Mrs. PORTER - You want me to translate it to English?
Mr. SAWYER - Yes.
Mrs. PORTER - "Hunter for the fascists."
Mr. SAWYER - "Hunter for the fascists."
Mrs. PORTER - Yes, "Ha, ha, ha," You know.
Mr. SAWYER - But the writing before the "Ha, ha, ha" is "Hunter for the fascists" is that correct?
Mrs. PORTER - Yes.

Mr. SAWYER - Do you know whose writing it is in Russian up at the top, where it says "Hunter for fascists. Ha, ha, ha"?

Mrs. PORTER - Well, some letters would be, look like I would write, but some not, so I am confused about that inscription in the back.

Mr. SAWYER - You don't know whether that is your writing or not, or do you know it is not? You are not clear on it?

Mrs. PORTER - Well, like if I look at first, you know, I think yes, it is my handwriting, until I start to analyze it, and it is not. Those letters "Ha, ha, ha," you know, the letter "Ha," that is not my way of writing this certain letter.

Mrs. PORTER - I cannot identify it as Lee's writing. I cannot, I do not remember what Lee's handwriting looks like in English. I do not have anything in my hands to compare.
Mr. SAWYER - So that when you can't, it is merely that you don't know whether it is or not. You don't have an opinion that it is not his handwriting.
Mrs. PORTER - That is true. It is for experts to compare.

Mr. FITHIAN Can't you testify to this committee that you did not indeed write that on that photograph? Mrs. PORTER - As I told you, I am just puzzled, and I am just as curious as you are.

Mr. FITHIAN - But we will get later today to discussing the handwriting. I am simply asking you, cannot you at this point specifically testify to this committee that that is not your writing?
Mrs. PORTER - Yesterday I was thinking after I left this room, I was thinking exactly the same thing as you did, or that had been written by a very old person, because sometimes people with the age, they don't have such a good grip, or a child.

Mrs. PORTER - I cannot claim this as my handwriting.

Mrs. PORTER - NO; I do not remember ever writing anything on the photograph.
Mr. FITHIAN - And then looking at the words, isn't it your best judgment that you indeed did not write any of those words?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't recall writing--anything.
Mr. FITHIAN - I am not asking what you recall. I am asking you to look at it, and you know your handwriting over some years, and can't you simply flat out testify to this committee that you did not, that that is not your handwriting?

Mrs. PORTER - Well, I told you yesterday my handwriting is not very consistent


According to Google Translate, the Russian word for “of” is из

https://translate.google.com/#en/ru/for


A copy of the note on the back of the photograph can be seen here:

http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/140255-could-lee-oswald-have-really-killed-jfk-79.html

The Russian word, “за” is more correctly translated as the word, “for, per, over, behind, at, or after”


This is from Answers.com in an article about George de Mohrenschildt:

QUOTE

http://www.answers.com/topic/george-de-mohrenschildt

Another backyard photo

Days later, on April 1 1977, Jeanne de Mohrenschildt gave the House Select Committee on Assassinations a photograph taken of Lee Harvey Oswald, by his wife Marina, standing in his Dallas backyard holding two newspapers and a rifle with a pistol on his hip. The existence of this photograph, while similar to others which had been found among Oswald's effects on November 23 1963, was previously unknown. Jeanne de Mohrenschildt said it had been kept privately for almost 14 years.

On the back was written, "To my friend George from Lee Oswald, and the date “5/IV/63” [this is in Russian/European convention with day in front and month in Roman numerals, and means 5 April, 63]

UNQUOTE

I remember reading in the past about the date as it was written was supposed to have some significance, because it was written in the Cryllic fashion.

Imagine my surprise when I ran across this little note in the CIA microfilm collection:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

Steve Thomas

George DeMohrenschildt interviewed by Edward Epstein for New York Magazine March 6, 1978.

https://books.google.com/books?id=8eACAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=%22Hunter+of+Fascists%22&source=bl&ots=a7cuwxps2a&sig=DCtc-n07uCkvr2friSUsulEG4r8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ8Yzf3bnZAhXEs1MKHSqkD4oQ6AEITzAK#v=onepage&q=%22Hunter%20of%20Fascists%22&f=false

Epstein said DeMohrenschildt's last words to him were to try and get this photo from a Dallas Attorney named Pat Russell.

 

The photos were taken on Sunday, March 31, 1963

The date on the back of the photograph is April 5th

If the pictures were taken on March 31st, why was the picture inscribed April 5th? Why wait five days?

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In 1963, and the last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. It was the last time?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. The very last time we saw them.
Mr. JENNER. This was around Eastertime?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Around Eastertime.
Mr. JENNER. In April?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In April.

Mr. JENNER. This was on Easter Sunday?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Easter day. I don't remember it was Easter Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Easter is always on Sunday.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, but I think it was on the holiday.

 

In 1963, Easter was on April 14th.

 

Why didn't Lee give the photo to George on April 5th?

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.

 

Marina Oswald's HSCA Deposition TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1977

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

 

Q. Do you have any recollection of him ever saying anything about these particular poses or the photographs?
A. Let me turn back what strikes my memories, George de Mohrenschildt came--I am not trying to confuse you, you know, give you a false statement. I try to get my memory to go. What strikes me, I think I was surprised that he showed pictures to George de Mohrenschildt because I thought the rifle and the gun, first of all I was always against it so, if in my memory I remember being surprised at him showing pictures like that to George, so apparently I saw them at the apartment.
Q. You remember him showing the pictures to George?
A. Something strikes my memory that how dare he show pictures like that to a friend.
Q. Would you think about it for a few moments and tell me if you can remember anything else about him showing either or both of these photographs to George de Mohrenschildt?
A. I don't want to cast shadows on somebody that is maybe innocent and comments they maybe did not make.
Q. I am not asking you to say anything good or bad about Mr. De Mohrenschildt, just simply tell me if you remember that particular incident, him showing these pictures to George de Mohrenschildt.
A. It is so hard to dig in your memory 13 years ago.
Q. Take your time.
A. I vaguely remember because it still strikes my memory it surprised me that he showed them to him, so apparently it was at the apartment.

 

Why would Lee inscribe a picture, and never give it to George?

Why would he write, “To my friend George" in English, but use the Cryllic for of writing for the date?

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, and they obviously still have those records.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, they were found in Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap phonograph, to play the records.
Mr. JENNER. You gave them records?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

 

How did the photograph wind up in storage?

 

DeMohrenschildt, George. Lee Harvey Oswald as I Knew Him. Chapter 5. A Ghost Visits: Finding a Photograph.

https://muse.jhu.edu/chapter/1523595 pp. 94-106

 

“Suddenly, she (Jeanne) rushed out of the warehouse with a crazy look on her face. “Look, look, what I found!” she shouted excitedly. She dragged me to a pile of open crates and I saw inside a slightly familiar looking green box. “What the hell is this?” I asked. “This is the box with the records I gave Marina before our departure,” she said.7 “How did they get there? We left them such a long time ago?” “I haven’t the slightest idea, I considered them lost.” Jeanne was short of words—this was so weird. “I had used them myself to learn English when I came to this country. They served me well. Then I loaned them to Marina long before our departure for Haiti.” “Remember how punctiliously8 honest Lee was,” I said. “He would not keep any of our belongings. But how the hell did the records get into this warehouse? Perhaps he remembered where we were planning to store our furniture? Or, possibly, maybe he had handed the package9 over to Glover, because he knew we had loaned him some of our furniture10 and it was Glover who finally added them to the rest of the stored boxes at the Southwest Warehouse?” This remains a mystery to this day, because we lost track of Everett, a good guy who apparently got so frightened by his very slight acquaintanceship with the “president’s assassin” that he moved somewhere without leaving a forwarding address.11 My wife began taking the albums out of the box and as she opened each of them to see if the records inside were broken or not, she shrieked12 almost hysterically. “Look, there is a picture of Lee Oswald here!” This was the same, very controversial picture of Lee, the one which appeared on the February 21, 1964, cover of the now-defunct Life magazine.”

 

I am troubled by the sudden appearance of evidence in this case that were in Marina's possession that appear after the evidence has been seized and searched by the Dallas Police, e.g. the Walker note falling out of a cookbook, or a book of poems (I can't remember which); and the DeMohrenschildt rifle photograph falling out of a phonograph record that she was given. There is an old saying that goes, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

 

Steve Thomas

 


 

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

This is really interesting.

But can you boil it down to just three or four paragraphs?

Jim,

 

Sure. Without all the supporting documentation, it goes like this:

 

Oswald freely admitted having the Selective Service card, but denied that was his signature.

Why?

He was either lying or telling the truth. If he was lying, you could prove it by submitting the card to handwriting experts, but that wasn't done. Did the same person who signed the name “Hidell” on the SS card also sign the name Hidell on the form that ordered the rifle?

We don't know.

 

I can't find any instance where Lee used the card as form of identification for anything; to get a job, to buy a beer, to get a license – nothing. Sylvia Meagher says the same thing in her book, Accessories After the Fact. The name on the card links him to the rifle purchase.

 

If he was telling the truth, who else was known to be signing the name A. Hidell?

Marina.

 

She admitted to signing the name Hidell to “two or three things” that were not pamphlets, but she wasn't asked what those “two or three things” were. She said that some of them were cards.

Oswald said he never ordered a rifle, and no postal employees saw him pick one up.

Did anyone else ever pick one up? We don't know.

 

On several occasions, Marina says they were living on Neely St. in January, and that she saw the rifle in February, but they didn't move to Neely and rifle wasn't purchased until March.

 

A photograph of Oswald with the rifle emerges 13 years after the fact. On the back is an inscription allegedly dedicating it to George DeMohrenschildt. The inscription uses a dating method that Oswald was not known to use, but Marina did. Marina says that the pictures were shown to George, but George says he never saw it. The handwriting experts commissioned by the government were unable to determine who wrote the caption on the back of the photo.

 

The picture and an undated letter concerning the Walker shooting fall out of items that have been in the personal possession of Marina; after they have been seized and searched by the Dallas Police.

 

It just makes me wonder.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

 

Sure. Without all the supporting documentation, it goes like this:

 

Oswald freely admitted having the Selective Service card, but denied that was his signature.

Why?   

He was either lying or telling the truth. If he was lying, you could prove it by submitting the card to handwriting experts, but that wasn't done. Did the same person who signed the name “Hidell” on the SS card also sign the name Hidell on the form that ordered the rifle?

We don't know.

THIS IS THE SSS CARD FOUND IN ONE OF 4 WALLETS? OR WAS IN IT 2 OF 4 WALLETS?  WHAT WOULD HILL BE REFERRING TO WHEN THE WALLET WITH HIDELL IN IT WAS FOUND AT THE TIPPIT SCENE?
Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either. 
About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification.
Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.  I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.   And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under. 
Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell? 
Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard. 
Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name? 

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was. 

I can't find any instance where Lee used the card as form of identification for anything; to get a job, to buy a beer, to get a license – nothing. Sylvia Meagher says the same thing in her book, Accessories After the Fact. The name on the card links him to the rifle purchase.

AGREED

If he was telling the truth, who else was known to be signing the name A. Hidell?

Marina.

OR AT LEAST ADMITTING TO IT... SHE ALSO AGREED TO ADMIT TO TAKING 3 OR 4 PHOTOS WHEN SHE COULDN'T HAVE POSSIBLY HAVE TAKEN EVEN 1...  a PROCESS EVEN SHE WOULD HAVE TO REMEMBER

She admitted to signing the name Hidell to “two or three things” that were not pamphlets, but she wasn't asked what those “two or three things” were. She said that some of them were cards.

Oswald said he never ordered a rifle, and no postal employees saw him pick one up.

Did anyone else ever pick one up? We don't know.

THE RIFLE WAS NEVER ORDERED, NEVER SHIPPED, NEVER DELIVERED, NO POSTCARD WAS PROVIDED FOR PICKUP, NO 5' CARTON DISCARDED OR SEEN IN OSWALD'S POSSESSIONS, NO WAY OF GETTING IT HOME FROM DALLAS, AND THE RIFLE FOUND ON THE 6TH FLOOR DOES NOT EVEN MATCH CE139...   LOOKING TO MARINA AS THE SOURCE FOR THIS SEEMS LESS AND LESS LIKELY...

On several occasions, Marina says they were living on Neely St. in January, and that she saw the rifle in February, but they didn't move to Neely and rifle wasn't purchased until March.

I SEEM TO REMEMBER A VERY STRONG ARGUMENT FOR THE OSWALD'S NEVER LIVING AT NEELY...  AND SINCE SHE DIDN'T TAKE THE PHOTO(S) HE WORD IS WORTH NEXT TO NOTHING...

A photograph of Oswald with the rifle emerges 13 years after the fact. On the back is an inscription allegedly dedicating it to George DeMohrenschildt. The inscription uses a dating method that Oswald was not known to use, but Marina did. Marina says that the pictures were shown to George, but George says he never saw it. The handwriting experts commissioned by the government were unable to determine who wrote the caption on the back of the photo.

 

The picture and an undated letter concerning the Walker shooting fall out of items that have been in the personal possession of Marina; after they have been seized and searched by the Dallas Police.

 

It just makes me wonder.

ME TOO, BUT NOT ABOUT MARINA AS A SOURCE.   LOOK A BIT MORE DEEPLY INTO:  HAROLD MARKS

Steve Thomas

 

 

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf   IS THE BEST i COULD DO AT THE TIME...  PAGE 57-58 AMONG OTHERS TALKS OF J HAROLD MARKS, ROBERT JACKSON AND THE PROCESS OF SECURING YET ANOTHER ORIGINAL OF THE PMO.

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf   IS A TIMELINE THAT SHOWS THE CONFLICTS THAT DAY...

 

THIS REMINDS ME OF THE QUESTION - HOW GOOD A MARKSMAN WAS OSWALD... COULD HE MAKE THE SHOTS?

THIS PRESUPPOSES HE PLANNED AN ASSASSINATION FOR WHICH NO EVIDENCE EXISTS...

ATTRIBUTING THE RIFLE PURCHASE TO MARINA MAKES ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE RIFLE WITH WHICH I FIRMLY DISAGREE 

BUT ALWAYS A PLEASE DISCUSSING WITH YOU STEVE...  I'LL LEAVE 2% OPEN FOR THE POSSIBILITY...

:peace

 

 

img_10490_118_300.png

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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf   IS THE BEST i COULD DO AT THE TIME...  PAGE 57-58 AMONG OTHERS TALKS OF J HAROLD MARKS, ROBERT JACKSON AND THE PROCESS OF SECURING YET ANOTHER ORIGINAL OF THE PMO.

https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf   IS A TIMELINE THAT SHOWS THE CONFLICTS THAT DAY...

 

THIS REMINDS ME OF THE QUESTION - HOW GOOD A MARKSMAN WAS OSWALD... COULD HE MAKE THE SHOTS?

THIS PRESUPPOSES HE PLANNED AN ASSASSINATION FOR WHICH NO EVIDENCE EXISTS...

ATTRIBUTING THE RIFLE PURCHASE TO MARINA MAKES ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE RIFLE WITH WHICH I FIRMLY DISAGREE 

BUT ALWAYS A PLEASE DISCUSSING WITH YOU STEVE...  I'LL LEAVE 2% OPEN FOR THE POSSIBILITY...

:peace

 

 

img_10490_118_300.png

David,

You wrote, " but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card."

 

I have different issues with the library card, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion.  The only two people who address the subject of an address being discussed on the ride from the Theater to downtown were Bob Carroll and Gerald Hill. Carroll said that no address was mentioned, and Hill said there were two addresses found on Oswald's ID - one in Oak Cliff, and one in Irving.

We know that Oswald did not have any ID with an Irving St. address on him, so that makes the Oak Cliff address, i.e. the library card suspicious in my mind.

 

You wrote, OR AT LEAST ADMITTING TO IT... SHE ALSO AGREED TO ADMIT TO TAKING 3 OR 4 PHOTOS WHEN SHE COULDN'T HAVE POSSIBLY HAVE TAKEN EVEN 1...  a PROCESS EVEN SHE WOULD HAVE TO REMEMBER

 

During one of her testimonies (I don't remember which one) she said she took the pictures by holding the camera up to her eye. If she did that, she would have poked her eye out.

 

You wrote, " THE RIFLE WAS NEVER ORDERED, NEVER SHIPPED, NEVER DELIVERED..."

I only put that in about the rifle being picked up, because, if a rifle was shipped, we have no way of knowing who picked it up. It could have been anybody.

As Harry Holmes told the WC,

Mr. HOLMES. "Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory---I am surmising now, because nobody knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, "I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it."

 

I'll take the 2%.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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1 minute ago, Steve Thomas said:

I only put that in about the rifle being picked up, because, if a rifle was shipped, we have no way of knowing who picked it up. It could have been anybody.

Harry Holmes is the source for the information that a notice is placed in a PO Box when a box too large is received. 

Would we not then have this signed form for that PO BOX?  Or at least the unsigned form showing the delivery...

Steve, I am fairly confident that my work on the subject shows that none of the 100 rifles existed in the real world... They may have been in that box at Harborside, but I believe I've proven that those 100 rifles and their evidence only self-corroborate...  outside of the JFK case, there is no record of there ever being any of these rifles at Klein's... 

You can see the serial numbers written over an older form... 

Don't you find it odd that not one rifle from that 100 rifle shipment has EVER been found?

5a95acd3db3f3_EnlargementofblankareaunderserialnumbersinWaldman4.jpg.f8ba8f60da25740c6ba142c2dd396f2b.jpg

5a95acf8a97aa_Kleinsserielnumbervclist-WH_Vol21_0362a.thumb.gif.fc33feaed733b8403ff745c23cfbaaf1.gif

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14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Well, I do.

 

Also, is that document saying what I think it says?

Marks could not find the original?

WCD 87, p118-121  is the pertinent section of the report.  

Or check my timeline starting at 9pm 11/23...  

MARKS gets it from JACKSON who then gives it to SS SA PARKER.  On the back of the PMO we have the initials for all 3 men.
PARKER makes the 5 copies but they do not leave until the next morning
PARKER then gives the original to SS SAIC GEIGLAN who places it in the SS DC Field office safe
On 11/24 SS SA GRIMES removes the original from the safe and give it to FBI SA CHISHOLM providing a receipt
CHISHOLM gives the original to FBI SA JAMES FREEMAN at the FBI labs and it becomes CE1136

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=145&tab=page 

The very next pages claims that REA collected the $19.95 and the $1.27 shipping charge...  but there is no record of the $1.27.

Just sayin...

 

 

 

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Marina Oswald most probably was not responsible for the inscription on the back of the deMohrenschildt BYP. There is another handwritten document attributed to her which features the phrase “ha-ha” and the writing is obviously different - as she had suggested during a testimony (see footnote 4 here for a visual comparison https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-parts-1-3). However, Marina did have a habit of punctuating sentences or comments with that “ha-ha” phrase, suggesting that whoever wrote the “hunter of fascists” inscription was aware of that tendency.

 

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Let's please get back to the original concept prior to anyone ordering a rifle...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95677#relPageId=6&tab=page

This is part of a report out of Italy about the RIFLE...  That the one pictured that THEY saw was a 7.35 mm rifle and not CE139... (as I have shown)

Furthermore - on the quality of this amazing rifle...  page 3 #22 sheds some light...

When we all realize CE139 was not on the 6th floor, was never ordered by anyone and was used only to attach Oswald's prints to a suspected murder weapon....
maybe we can move on from trying to make the rifle REAL.

Like the rest of this... The Evidence IS the Conspiracy...   :news

:peace

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53 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

Marina Oswald most probably was not responsible for the inscription on the back of the deMohrenschildt BYP. There is another handwritten document attributed to her which features the phrase “ha-ha” and the writing is obviously different - as she had suggested during a testimony (see footnote 4 here for a visual comparison https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-parts-1-3). However, Marina did have a habit of punctuating sentences or comments with that “ha-ha” phrase, suggesting that whoever wrote the “hunter of fascists” inscription was aware of that tendency.

 

Jeff,

 

I don't know why, maybe it's just my computer, but when I try to follow the link you provide, I just get a blank page.

 

I have a question about the DeMohrenschildt photo. Do you know off the top of your head, if I give you something - a photo, or a song, or a book I wrote, or whatever;

even if the original giver is dead, can you copyright it?

 

Steve Thomas

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Sorry, this should work. scroll down to footnote 4 

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-parts-1-3

About that deMohrenschildt photo:  by the time of the HSCA, George deMohrenschildt was experiencing money problems and it would appear he thought the inscribed photo might be valuable and therefore was claiming exclusive right to the photo by attaching a "copyright." But, as you deduce, there was no actual legal basis for his claim of copyright. He made have had some rights to control or receive payment for distribution of at least the backside of the photo, but that would be based on possession and not as the "author". 

The deMohrenschildt photo was determined to have been made directly from the negative of BYP 133A (which was said to have been discovered with Oswald's effects and was in possession of the Dallas police by the afternoon of Nov 23). The print was larger and contained much more detail than the corresponding "drugstore print" originally discovered. Whoever created this print had access to a higher end darkroom apparatus - possibly Oswald at J-C-S or at the Dallas police's photo lab. How the print ended up with the deMohrenschildt's LP records has never been determined. This box of LPs should have been searched by the FBI when it became apparent in 1964 that it had been with the Oswalds for some months in 1963, but it wasn't (incidentally, Ruth Paine indirectly handled those LP records, had access to the deMohrenschildt's storage locker after Glover left, could write in Russian, and was familiar with Marina's turns of phrase).

 

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5 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

Sorry, this should work. scroll down to footnote 4 

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-parts-1-3

About that deMohrenschildt photo:  by the time of the HSCA, George deMohrenschildt was experiencing money problems and it would appear he thought the inscribed photo might be valuable and therefore was claiming exclusive right to the photo by attaching a "copyright." But, as you deduce, there was no actual legal basis for his claim of copyright. He made have had some rights to control or receive payment for distribution of at least the backside of the photo, but that would be based on possession and not as the "author". 

The deMohrenschildt photo was determined to have been made directly from the negative of BYP 133A (which was said to have been discovered with Oswald's effects and was in possession of the Dallas police by the afternoon of Nov 23). The print was larger and contained much more detail than the corresponding "drugstore print" originally discovered. Whoever created this print had access to a higher end darkroom apparatus - possibly Oswald at J-C-S or at the Dallas police's photo lab. How the print ended up with the deMohrenschildt's LP records has never been determined. This box of LPs should have been searched by the FBI when it became apparent in 1964 that it had been with the Oswalds for some months in 1963, but it wasn't (incidentally, Ruth Paine indirectly handled those LP records, had access to the deMohrenschildt's storage locker after Glover left, could write in Russian, and was familiar with Marina's turns of phrase).

 

Jeff,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

I got to thinking about the "Hunter For Fascists" slogan on the back. If I remember right, the HSCA handwriting analysis was not able to determine that the handwriting was Marina's, and I got to wondering if it was George (or maybe even Jeanne) who wrote it. Didn't George die before he could testify before the HSCA? I guess nobody had the chance to ask him if the writing was his. I wonder if that was why he tried to claim copyright.

 

But, then again, your reference to Ruth Paine having access to the DeMohrenschildt's storage locker is very interesting. In his book about Oswald, George said that he and Jeanne were puzzled about how that box of records got into their storage locker.

 

I know you're probably aware of all this, but If you'll indulge me for a minute, I just wanted to put this down on paper to get my thoughts in order.

 

On this website by Jeremy Bojczuk http://22november1963.org.uk/did-lee-oswald-shoot-general-edwin-walker he writes:

 

“Ruth Paine, with whom Marina had been staying at the time of the assassination, sent her a Russian–language book. Tucked inside the book was the handwritten note.”

 

The note was undated, and did not mention General Walker or any reason why Oswald might find himself under arrest. There are several reasons to doubt the authenticity of the handwritten note:


 

CE 1785 Secret Service Report by Leon Gopadze December 3, 1963.

The note was “found in a book entitled, Book of Helpful Instructions belonging to Mrs. Marina Oswald.”

Ruth sent Marina this book while Marina was at the Six Flags Motel.


 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

Mr. McDONALD. Directing your attention to that day, April 10, 1963, would you tell us what happened?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I cannot remember the timing all the very vivid details of day. I just can state it that that particular night he did not come home until very late, and when he did not come home at regular time, I was worried about him. So I found a note addressed to me what to do in case if he did not come home. Of course I was petrified. Nobody I can turn to. But then later that night when he came home, I asked him to explain. He was out of breath and he was pale, and asked him to explain this note, and he said that "I just shot General Walker."

Mr. McDONALD. You mentioned a note, he left you a note.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. Where was this note left?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember right now, but I think it could be in the closet, on the table there.

Mr. McDONALD. And what did you do with the note when he returned home?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember.
Mr. McDONALD. Is that note in existence now?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know.


Mr. McDONALD. And you were aware of this notebook that he kept.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I tried to recall in my memory how these things did happen, and by now maybe I assumed some things, so really I just know it as a fact that Lee did try to attempt on life of General Walker. He told me about that and that is the fact. Details of it, I do not remember. I don't want to mislead you different direction.
Mr. McDONALD. But do you recall Lee ever burning the pages of this notebook in the bathroom?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, afterwards, of course, I was petrified, you know, for what he did. I was afraid and--I was waiting for the police to knock on our door any minute, so I probably even myself would be eager to destroy any evidence that lead to arrest of Lee.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember him destroying this notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember right now.


She would be eager to destroy any evidence that connected Lee to Walker's shooting, but managed to hold on to the notebook, the pictures of Walker's house, this note, the backyard photos, and the DeMohreschildt picture.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.

 

Marina Oswald's HSCA Deposition TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1977

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

Maybe I'm just being bitchy at the moment, but I can just picture Marina batting her eyes while she says this, "What? Little old me? I don't want to impugn somebody, but...

 

Q. Do you have any recollection of him ever saying anything about these particular poses or the photographs?
A. Let me turn back what strikes my memories, George de Mohrenschildt came--I am not trying to confuse you, you know, give you a false statement. I try to get my memory to go. What strikes me, I think I was surprised that he showed pictures to George de Mohrenschildt because I thought the rifle and the gun, first of all I was always against it so, if in my memory I remember being surprised at him showing pictures like that to George, so apparently I saw them at the apartment.
Q. You remember him showing the pictures to George?
A. Something strikes my memory that how dare he show pictures like that to a friend.
Q. Would you think about it for a few moments and tell me if you can remember anything else about him showing either or both of these photographs to George de Mohrenschildt?
A. I don't want to cast shadows on somebody that is maybe innocent and comments they maybe did not make.
Q. I am not asking you to say anything good or bad about Mr. De Mohrenschildt, just simply tell me if you remember that particular incident, him showing these pictures to George de Mohrenschildt.
A. It is so hard to dig in your memory 13 years ago.
Q. Take your time.
A. I vaguely remember because it still strikes my memory it surprised me that he showed them to him, so apparently it was at the apartment.

 

It sounds to me like not only Lee was being set up, but George DeMohrenschildt too.

 

Steve Thomas

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13 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

Jeff,

 

Thanks. That worked. You did a lot of work for that article.

One thing that struck me. The picture of June in the back yard:

 

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In his WC testimony, George DeMohrenschildt said,

" Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev.

 

It's kind of true, isn't it?

 

Steve Thomas

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DeMohrenschildt, acting on a request, befriended the Oswalds and helped them in a few circumstances (i.e. arranging Marina's dental work and trying to find Lee employment related to industrial security), may have been acting with other motives (i.e. working to separate the couple), and ultimately his brief relationship with the Oswalds was the ruin of him (publicity tied to the assassination damaged the work he was doing in Haiti and his expected payout did not happen). There's definitely more than meets the eye, but the deMohrenschildt's were gone from the scene by the time the Oswald set-up had begun (in my opinion). 

As a surmise, deMohrenschildt probably knew enough to make an informed guess as to who set Lee up, and the inscribed photo was placed with their possessions to serve as a sort of warning. It is interesting that the response to discovering the photo in 1967 was to arrange a dinner with the Paines, who they barely knew.

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