Did Lovelady Let A Cat Out Of The Bag?

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Cheers Sandy.

*At the moment personally I would like to somewhat err on the side of caution and say that it is an 'alleged' WC alteration. I'm not fully convinced on that point at the moment.

However, would it be fair to say that at that (approx.) 02:00 time Adams would be about to leave the back entrance?

 

Well, think about this. Oswald made it in 90 seconds, and he came from the 6th floor, not the 4th floor Adams was on. Lee also had to stop long enough to wipe his fingerprints off of the rifle and to hide the rifle under a pile of cartons. Adams said they were coming down the stairs pretty quick.

Two minutes? No way.

[Sandy Larsen]

I agree with Robert. Two minutes is too long.

No more than 1.5 minutes. And that is allowing them some time to talk before leaving the room.

[Alistair Briggs]

The contention (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that the testimony of Adams created problems for the official WC thinking that Oswald did it because their timing of Oswalds movements from the last shot to the encounter with Baker on the 2nd floor meant that he had to have passed Adams on the way down and she saw no one and heard no one on her way down?

Setting Oswald aside for the meantime, and merely looking at the timeline of Adams.

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately. "

"Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately. "

"Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes. "

*Oh just noticed there that backs up my thinking in my earlier post about the word 'encountered' meaning 'saw', I had overlooked the clarification later on in the testimony.

Obviously times have to be approx. so there has to be some lee way. From looking at that though is 2 minutes really that ridiculous a notion or am I missing something really obvious? Taking the highest of those times, 30 secs + 1 minute + (less than) 30 seconds + the some time from that point to the leaving the back door = approx. 2 minutes.

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The contention (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that the testimony of Adams created problems for the official WC thinking that Oswald did it because their timing of Oswalds movements from the last shot to the encounter with Baker on the 2nd floor meant that he had to have passed Adams on the way down and she saw no one and heard no one on her way down?

Setting Oswald aside for the meantime, and merely looking at the timeline of Adams.

"Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately. "

"Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately. "

"Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes. "

*Oh just noticed there that backs up my thinking in my earlier post about the word 'encountered' meaning 'saw', I had overlooked the clarification later on in the testimony.

Obviously times have to be approx. so there has to be some lee way. From looking at that though is 2 minutes really that ridiculous a notion or am I missing something really obvious? Taking the highest of those times, 30 secs + 1 minute + (less than) 30 seconds + the some time from that point to the leaving the back door = approx. 2 minutes.

Funny she never ran into Baker and Truly on the stairs.

Also, she was supposed to have encountered Shelley and Lovelady, not Truly and Lovelady.

[Alistair Briggs]

21 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Funny she never ran into Baker and Truly on the stairs.

The thing is, at this moment there is something formulating in my head about something to do with all the timings, but I don't want to get too ahead of myself with my own thinking else I confuse myself. I feel I have to point out that I don't really have any pre-concieved ideas about all this, I'm just trying to work through a few things. As something of a heads up, my thinking hasn't got to the 'Baker and Truly' on the stairs, as I'm kind of looking at things from 'the other way round'. Hopefully that won't come across as too defensive (or too cryptic) on my part.

21 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Also, she was supposed to have encountered Shelley and Lovelady, not Truly and Lovelady.

Clearly a simple error misspoken by Mr Belin. In the entire testimony the name Shelley can be found 5 times and always alongside Lovelady, whose name can be found 6 times, the only difference being the above which is clearly just a simple error.

To be honest Robert, I'm not really getting the point of your response as you have made no reference to the 2 'important' parts of my previous post. 1) Whether my contention in the first paragraph was correct. 2) Whether the notion of the 2 minutes (based on the quoted testimony) was so ridiculous or if I was missing something.

Regards

[Chris Newton]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

How did you know they were lying?

If I witnessed them being coached with an attorney the night before and then they omitted that "meeting" and discussion when asked under oath then they were lying about that contact.

95% of the cases I was involved in were civil.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Okay, 1.5 minutes at most. If 1.5 minutes equals 90 seconds, and Oswald allegedly made it from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor in 90 seconds, there is a good chance they would have heard him on the stairs. From what I've read, they were very noisy wooden stairs.

[Robert Prudhomme]

On 01/01/2017 at 9:09 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

The thing is, at this moment there is something formulating in my head about something to do with all the timings, but I don't want to get too ahead of myself with my own thinking else I confuse myself. I feel I have to point out that I don't really have any pre-concieved ideas about all this, I'm just trying to work through a few things. As something of a heads up, my thinking hasn't got to the 'Baker and Truly' on the stairs, as I'm kind of looking at things from 'the other way round'. Hopefully that won't come across as too defensive (or too cryptic) on my part.

Clearly a simple error misspoken by Mr Belin. In the entire testimony the name Shelley can be found 5 times and always alongside Lovelady, whose name can be found 6 times, the only difference being the above which is clearly just a simple error.

To be honest Robert, I'm not really getting the point of your response as you have made no reference to the 2 'important' parts of my previous post. 1) Whether my contention in the first paragraph was correct. 2) Whether the notion of the 2 minutes (based on the quoted testimony) was so ridiculous or if I was missing something.

Regards

Think about this when you are attempting to calculate how long Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles took to come from the fourth floor window to the first floor, where they supposedly met Shelley and Lovelady. This is from Shelley's statement to the FBI:

 “Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the westside door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1.30p.m. When I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept to furnish an affidavit.”

Do you think Vickie took ten minutes (or longer) to come from the fourth floor?

[Alistair Briggs]

Yes noisy wooden stairs. I recall reading somewhere in somebody's testimony that they were described as 'old, wooden and very creaky'.

One thing I've not quite got my head round at the moment - I've read that the seeing 'Shelley/Lovelady' part of Adams (allegedly) was a 'WC alteration' for the purpose of discrediting Adams timeline so as to back up their movement of Oswald, but does the addition of that not actually discredit Shelley and Lovelady, who, according to the WC were witnesses to Baker, as per the 'official' account, running in to the building quickly enough to have reached the 2nd floor to encounter Oswald (who in his state was 'calm' enough to not be deemed a witness) but could only have got there in that time frame by passing Adams... of course, the testimony of Shelley and Lovelady contradict the official timing of Baker running in to the building (say 30 seconds) as they both claim to have seen him run in after they left the steps but they didn't leave the steps for 3 minutes.

Impossible to think that a person could confuse 30 seconds for 3 minutes imo.

Robert, I've read a number of your posts in other threads about the timing of Shelley and Lovelady etc, so I have some idea of what your thinking on the matter is. I don't disagree with you by the way.

Just noticed you have posted another response as I type this, I will address that in my next response.

Regards

[Alistair Briggs]

2 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Do you think Vickie took ten minutes (or longer) to come from the fourth floor?

Oh goodness no, from what I can ascertain the time between Vickie Adams hearing the last shots and reaching the back at the first floor was somewhere between 90 seconds and 2 minutes.

4 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

 “Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the westside door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1.30p.m. When I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept to furnish an affidavit.”

Wow, I hadn't come across that 'ten minutes' yet. That Lovelady is a weird one eh! Either he is a total fantasist, a moron, of is involved in a 'conspiracy'. lol

[Robert Prudhomme]

21 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

 

I've been trying to make sense of this whole thing for years now. It's enough to drive one mad. As you say, S&L's 3-4 minutes on the steps makes a mockery of Baker's early entry into the TSBD. Just what kind of cover up was this?

I also find it interesting that, in his statement to the FBI, Shelley states that he and Lovelady " accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building....", yet the two men some claim to be S&L walking down the Elm St. extension are clearly not with any uniformed police officers. It should be interesting to see how this is dealt with.

 

Edit: Not sure how the "21 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:" got up there....weird

Edited January 2, 2017 by Robert Prudhomme

[Alistair Briggs]

I think it is fair to say that witnesses (across the board) to such a momentous event are likely to get certain details wrong whether in terms of exact timings or exactly what they saw. We can't expect every single person to see everything or correctly remember everything, so there has to be some lee-way there. Having said that though, I mean there is being wrong and then there is being wrong... Shelley and Lovelady seem to be all over the place with their timings and what they did/saw it just can't be chalked up to 'simple errors' on their part...

Was it yourself who is currently on the case of trying to find out the exact height of Shelley?

[Robert Prudhomme]

On 02/01/2017 at 5:47 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

I think it is fair to say that witnesses (across the board) to such a momentous event are likely to get certain details wrong whether in terms of exact timings or exactly what they saw. We can't expect every single person to see everything or correctly remember everything, so there has to be some lee-way there. Having said that though, I mean there is being wrong and then there is being wrong... Shelley and Lovelady seem to be all over the place with their timings and what they did/saw it just can't be chalked up to 'simple errors' on their part...

Was it yourself who is currently on the case of trying to find out the exact height of Shelley?

Yes, I am. I.m not having a lot of luck so far.

[Alistair Briggs]

Hopefully you will get it, as it could go a long way to helping.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 1/2/2017 at 3:06 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

Oh goodness no, from what I can ascertain the time between Vickie Adams hearing the last shots and reaching the back at the first floor was somewhere between 90 seconds and 2 minutes.

Wow, I hadn't come across that 'ten minutes' yet. That Lovelady is a weird one eh! Either he is a total fantasist, a moron, of is involved in a 'conspiracy'. lol

Alistair,

Can you give me specific examples of Lovelady appearing to be lying? Also Shelley?

Can anybody?

I know that Lovelady says in his first-day affidavit that he went back inside TSBD after "it was over" (paraphrasing). And in his WC testimony he added the trip to the railroad yard. But it could be that Lovelady was just keeping his initial statement brief. (How much detail should a statement include? Certainly pertinent information of significant consequence. The trip to the RR yard may not have seemed pertinent. Maybe it was part of the word "it" in the statement "after it was over.)

Now that I know that both Lovelady and Shelley testified to being on the steps for about 3 minutes -- a fact that hurts the official story -- I'm inclined to believe their stories are correct.

(Another possibility: Maybe they were both coached to say the 3 minutes on the steps, because it aided in the WC's LATE encounter with Victoria Adams (used to discredit her testimony), not realizing at the moment that the 3 minutes would discredit Officer Baker's EARLY encounter with Oswald on the 2nd floor.)