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Did Lovelady Let A Cat Out Of The Bag?


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It has always intrigued me that Lovelady volunteered something to Ball that he didn't need to say until asked about it.

 

Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors. 
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. 
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie. 
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie? 
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman. 
Mr. BALL - What is her full name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know. 
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so. 
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw? 
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear. 

 

Some random observations and thoughts:

Vicki Adams and Billy Lovelady were questioned by a Warren Commission attorney on the same day and in the same room of the same building (the Post Office Building on Ervay).  Vicki's questioning (by Belin) was at 2:15 pm, and Lovelady's (by Ball) was at 3:50 pm.  Did Lovelady see Vicki in the hallway when Vicki came out of her session? Or did he somehow already know that Vicki was going to give testimony?

If the answer to either of those questions is "yes," could that help to explain why Lovelady, while giving his testimony, volunteered to Ball that he wasn't sure that he had seen Vicki on the first floor when he (and Shelley?) reentered the TSBD after the assassination?

Or was he "coached" in advance to say that he had seen Vicki there (but in reality hadn't), and didn't want to perjure himself, so kinda spilled the beans to the effect of having been "coached"?

If he was he not "coached" to say he'd seen Vicki there, but in reality thought that he might have, why did he volunteer that unnecessary information instead of waiting for Ball to ask if who he thought "the girl" was?

Thoughts?

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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9 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

  Did Lovelady see Vicki in the hallway when Vicki came out of her session?

Quite possibly. If he did, would they have had a chance to speak to each other? Or perhaps just the sight of Vicki, knowing that she was there for the same reason as himself, put her in his head?

12 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 Or did he somehow already know before that day that Vicki was going to give testimony?

Imo, the likliehood is that yes he would have known before that day that she was going to give testimony. In the 4 and a bit months since the assassination, they may have spoken to each other at some time, or at least spoken to other people about what they saw on the day, and no doubt there was a bit of 'gossip' about it too. There is a fair chance, imo, that both would have known (to some extent at least) what the other was claiming to have seen or did. And there is a good chance that either directly or indirectly they would both have known the other was giving testimony on the same day.

22 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Or was he "coached" in advance to say that he had seen Vicki there (but in reality hadn't), and didn't want to perjure himself, so kinda spilled the beans about having been "coached"?

It's a possibility!

Taking in to account the next bit of Lovelady's testimony...

Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

... it seems that he is just not sure what actually happened. He is not sure about whether the girl was talking to or had just seen Bill (or something). The implication, to me at least, is that the information he presented there is at best second hand, and could well be 3rd/4th/5th... hand - it reads kind of 'fluffy', where as the latter part of what he said (then I went... ) reads more 'confident' as if it was definitely something he knew for certain.

Shelley gave his testimony at 4:10pm (20 minutes after Lovelady) (straight after?) and the interviewer was also Ball. Could the fact that Lovelady had just mentioned Vickie Adams in relation to Shelley (Lovelady unclear whether she had been talking to him, or just seen him, or something) have led to Ball asking directly whether Shelley had seen Vickie Adams.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

The inference there is that Shelley not only didn't talk to Adams but also didn't even see her. We know from the testimony of Adams that she saw Shelley and Lovelady...

Miss ADAMS - ... I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

*Encountered is one of those words that can be somewhat ambigious. It could mean that she 'met' them or merely 'saw' them. Considering what both Shelley and Lovelady said the implication is that when Adams said encountered she meant saw them. Considering the testimony of all three then it would appear that while both Shelley and Lovelady entered the back at around the same time, a similar time that Adams was on her way out the back, all three must have been in the same vicinity but not all that close to each other...

Anyroads, on the subject of 'coaching' - considering that it seems that both Lovelady and Shelley had something of a shared experience from the front of the TSBD until re-entering the building at the back, if Lovelady was 'coached' to say that he'd seen Adams at that time, then surely Shelley would have been 'coached' to say the same thing too. If that was the case, and if Lovelady 'spilled the beans' about being 'coached' to avoid perjuring himself, then either Shelley would have said that he did see Adams when they re-entered the building or he would have been as 'fluffy' as Lovelady had been about the incident.

Another thing that may be of interest on this subject is what Shelley said before being asked about Vickie Adams;

Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.
Mr. BALL - At the west end?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?
Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.

Lovelady made no mention of seeing Eddie Piper. That doesn't have to be 'suspicious' though. It's quite possible he never saw him, or even he did not think it worth mentioning, or even didn't mention it as he wasn't asked directly, or through the natural flow of the questioning it was simply not mentioned.

*Phew, that will do for now. ;) I'm relatively new to the subject at hand of comparing the relevant testimonies herein, so I feel it prudent for me to say that I offer up the above with no real contentions on my part as I haven't 'been on this case' long enough to have come to a real conlusion about what it all means yet..

Regards

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

[...]

 

Alistair,

Thanks for the feedback!

As regards your apparent realization that you, in the immortal words of Bob Dylan, "know something's happening here, but you don't know what it is,"  don't feel bad.  I've been "on the case" for more than ten years now, and I still don't have a clue.

LOL

--  Tommy :sun

Edit:  So what's your best guess as to why Lovelady volunteered that bit of information?

Because Lovelady assumed Ball already "knew" the girl was Vicki Adams, and that he wanted Lovelady to confirm it for the record?

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Vicki Adams and Billy Lovelady were questioned by a Warren Commission attorney on the same day and in the same room of the same building (the Post Office Building on Ervay).  Vicki's questioning (by Belin) was at 2:15 pm, and Lovelady's (by Ball) was at 3:50 pm.  Did Lovelady see Vicki in the hallway when Vicki came out of her session? Or did he somehow already know before that day that Vicki was going to give testimony?

Tommy,

As a courtroom audio/video tech, I've been intimately involved in trial preparations over 100 times. I've watched and been privy to dozens of "secret" meetings designed to prepare and coach both regular and "expert" witnesses. In most, (all but one that I can remember), of those instances, when questioned on the stand about "to whom they talked to and what about" all of those witnesses committed perjury. It's part of the "game", unfortunately.

It's more likely Lovelady was coached than he was allowed to sit in the courtroom and listen to testimony beforehand. Bailiffs have a list of witnesses to be called and generally very strict about who they allow into any hearing no matter the size.

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1 minute ago, Chris Newton said:

Tommy,

As a courtroom audio/video tech, I've been intimately involved in trial preparations over 100 times. I've watched and been privy to dozens of "secret" meetings designed to prepare and coach both regular and "expert" witnesses. In most, (all but one that I can remember), of those instances, when questioned on the stand about "to whom they talked to and what about" all of those witnesses committed perjury. It's part of the "game", unfortunately.

It's more likely Lovelady was coached than he was allowed to sit in the courtroom and listen to testimony beforehand. Bailiffs have a list of witnesses to be called and generally very strict about who they allow into any hearing no matter the size.

Chis,

I didn't mean to suggest that Lovelady "sat in" on Vicki's session.

--  Tommy :sun

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1 minute ago, Chris Newton said:

Tommy,

As a courtroom audio/video tech, I've been intimately involved in trial preparations over 100 times. I've watched and been privy to dozens of "secret" meetings designed to prepare and coach both regular and "expert" witnesses. In most, (all but one that I can remember), of those instances, when questioned on the stand about "to whom they talked to and what about" all of those witnesses committed perjury. It's part of the "game", unfortunately.

It's more likely Lovelady was coached than he was allowed to sit in the courtroom and listen to testimony beforehand. Bailiffs have a list of witnesses to be called and generally very strict about who they allow into any hearing no matter the size.


Wow, talk about an eye-popper! What you said.

How did you know they were lying?

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14 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Tommy,

As a courtroom audio/video tech, I've been intimately involved in trial preparations over 100 times. I've watched and been privy to dozens of "secret" meetings designed to prepare and coach both regular and "expert" witnesses. In most, (all but one that I can remember), of those instances, when questioned on the stand about "to whom they talked to and what about" all of those witnesses committed perjury. It's part of the "game", unfortunately.

It's more likely Lovelady was coached than he was allowed to sit in the courtroom and listen to testimony beforehand. Bailiffs have a list of witnesses to be called and generally very strict about who they allow into any hearing no matter the size.

Chis,

I didn't mean to suggest that Lovelady "sat in" on Vicki's session.  LOL

--  Tommy :sun

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In the other, related thread there's been a lot of talk on whether Shelley and Lovelady set out for the railroad yard around 30 seconds after the shooting (which supports Baker's testimony and the official story), or 3 to 4 minutes after the shooting (which is what Shelley and Lovelady testified to for the WC). Then after visiting the railroad yard, they went back in the TSBD's west entrance.

Now I'm reminded that Vickie Adams' testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. (I had been thinking that it was only Lovelady who testified to that "encounter.") According to Adams, she ran down the stairs immediately after the shooting.

If Adam's is right, then Shelley and Lovelady had to have gone back inside the TSBD soon after the shooting, without having visited the railroad yard at all (not after 30 seconds, not after 3 minutes).

So if Vickie Adams is to be believed -- and I do believe her at the moment -- either all that stuff about walking down Elm St. extension and visiting the railroad yard is pure fabrication, or it's true but separate from Shelley and Lovelady going inside right after the shooting! That is to say, they went back into the TSBD shortly after the shooting, at which time Victoria Adams saw them, and then after that they went outside again and made their excursion down Elm St. extension and the railroad yard.

It's interesting to note that in both Shelley and Lovelady's first day affidavits, they said they went right back into the TSBD.

EDIT: It turns out that Victoria Adams later told the author of "The Girl on the Stairs" that her Shelley/Lovelady sighting did NOT occur. It must have been added by the WC.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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20 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In the other, related thread there's been a lot of talk on whether Shelley and Lovelady set out for the railroad yard around 30 seconds after the shooting (which supports Baker's testimony and the official story), or 3 to 4 minutes after the shooting (which is what Shelley and Lovelady testified to for the WC). Then after visiting the railroad yard, they went back in the TSBD's west entrance.

Now I'm reminded that Vickie Adams' testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. (I had been thinking that it was only Lovelady who testified to that "encounter.") According to Adams, she ran down the stairs immediately after the shooting.

If Adam's is right, then Shelley and Lovelady had to have gone back inside the TSBD soon after the shooting, without having visited the railroad yard at all (not after 30 seconds, not after 3 minutes).

So if Vickie Adams is to be believed -- and I do believe her at the moment -- either all that stuff about walking down Elm St. extension and visiting the railroad yard is pure fabrication, or it's true but separate from Shelley and Lovelady going inside right after the shooting! That is to say, they went back into the TSBD shortly after the shooting, at which time Victoria Adams saw them, and then after that they went outside again and made their excursion down Elm St. extension and the railroad yard.

It's interesting to note that in both Shelley and Lovelady's first day affidavits, they said they went right back into the TSBD.

 

Dear Sandy,

Didn't Vicki Adams tell Barry Ernest, the guy who wrote "The Girl On The Stairs," that parts of her WC testimony had been changed by the authorities?

http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html

--  Tommy :sun

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Sandy, Thomas,

I have been trying to work out something of a timeline for Adams, Shelley and Lovelady based on their testimonies

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm

Adams

00.00 Heard last shot
00:15 or 00:30 left position at window
01:30 reached bottom of stairs at 1st floor
02:00 Saw Shelley & Lovelady
05:00 Returned to front of the building.

* I can't get my head round the Shelley and Lovelady testimony, the questioning seems somewhat disjointed whereas the questioning of Adams seems a lot better. Could that just be because of the different styles of Ball And Belin? I get the feeling that had Belin been the one asking Lovelady and Shelley things may be a lot more understandable...

Thoughts?

 

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28 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Sandy, Thomas,

I have been trying to work out something of a timeline for Adams, Shelley and Lovelady based on their testimonies

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm

Adams

00.00 Heard last shot
00:15 or 00:30 left position at window
01:30 reached bottom of stairs at 1st floor
02:00 Saw Shelley & Lovelady
05:00 Returned to front of the building.

* I can't get my head round the Shelley and Lovelady testimony, the questioning seems somewhat disjointed whereas the questioning of Adams seems a lot better. Could that just be because of the different styles of Ball And Belin? I get the feeling that had Belin been the one asking Lovelady and Shelley things may be a lot more understandable...

Thoughts?

 

Ever heard of Barry Earnest, the author of "The Girl On The Stairs"?

See my post about him on another thread today, and the interview, below.

http://garyrevel.com/jfk/girlonstairs.html

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Sandy, Thomas,

I have been trying to work out something of a timeline for Adams, Shelley and Lovelady based on their testimonies

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm

Adams

00.00 Heard last shot
00:15 or 00:30 left position at window
01:30 reached bottom of stairs at 1st floor
02:00 Saw Shelley & Lovelady
05:00 Returned to front of the building.

* I can't get my head round the Shelley and Lovelady testimony, the questioning seems somewhat disjointed whereas the questioning of Adams seems a lot better. Could that just be because of the different styles of Ball And Belin? I get the feeling that had Belin been the one asking Lovelady and Shelley things may be a lot more understandable...

Thoughts?

 

 

Victoria Adams:

00.00 Heard last shot
00:15 or 00:30 left position at window
01:30 reached bottom of stairs at 1st floor
02:00 Saw Shelley & Lovelady  [This is a WC alteration.]
05:00 Returned to front of the building.

 

Shelley & Lovelady:

00:00  Heard last shot at TSBD steps.
03:00  Gloria Calvery arrives at steps.
03:30  They arrive at island across the street.
04:30  Shelley sees Truly & Baker at TSBD steps. Shelly & Lovelady leave island,
           fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25 steps, Lovelady looks
           back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are 75 to 100 yards
           to railroad yard.)
05:30  Arrive at railroad yard.
07:00  Enter west door of TSBD. Lovelady sees girl, won't swear to her being
          Victoria Adams.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Cheers Sandy.

*At the moment personally I would like to somewhat err on the side of caution and say that it is an 'alleged' WC alteration. I'm not fully convinced on that point at the moment.

However, would it be fair to say that at that (approx.) 02:00 time Adams would be about to leave the back entrance?

 

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