Vincent Bugliosi: The Whole Story

[Martin Hay]

[Robert Prudhomme]

What if the autopsy doctors had already been told what type of bullet had entered JFK's back, and this discussion about "ice bullets" and such was merely a show for the FBI agents and other witnesses present at the autopsy?

No, I'd be embarrassed to think such a thing.

The autopsists put on a little show?

Researcher, please!

Are you aware that the x-ray tech at the autopsy, Jerrol Custer, testified to the ARRB that JFK's chest organs (lungs, heart) were removed prior to Custer taking x-rays of the chest, and when Custer and his assistant were not present, and that Custer believed an extremely limited number of people were present when these organs were removed?

Did Sibert and O'Neil witness the removal of the chest organs?

They didn't write it up if they did.

I concede the point -- perhaps the round was removed prior to the autopsy witnessed by Sibert & O'Neill.

Cliff

I have a theory about the back wound, and the bullet that caused it. You see, I believe SA Sibert was on the right track when he phoned to find out about a bullet that would "almost completely fragmentize". Unfortunately, he was taken in enough by Humes' act concerning the "shallow" back wound to be able, in his mind, to follow to a logical conclusion what effect a bullet that would "almost completely fragmentize" would have in a wound.

Such a bullet is called a "frangible" bullet. It is constructed usually of a copper alloy jacket with a core made from compressed powdered lead, in a heat process known as "sintering". If not sintered, the powdered lead (or other metal) can be bonded together with a glue. Whatever the method, the bullet is designed to enter soft tissue (or a skull) making only a small entrance wound.

A lethal frangible bullet also has a hollow point on its nose, and this hollow point is key to making this bullet disintegrate after travelling only 2 or 3 inches in soft tissue. Once it enters semi- liquid tissue (lung, brain) the semi-liquid fills up the hollow point and, due to immense hydraulic pressure inside the nose caused by the velocity of the bullet, exerts an enormous pressure on the compressed powdered metal core. Long before the bullet can exit the other side of the chest (or skull), it will disintegrate into a cloud of metal powder that comes to an instant stop inside the wound.

This sudden stop and transfer of 100% of the bullet's energy to surrounding tissue is completely devastating, and likely had the effect of breaking every pumonary artery in the top of JFK's right lung. If JFK appears to be choking at z224, it is because he likely was. He had not only just lost 50% of his breathing capacity with the collapse of his right lung, there was also likely blood quickly flowing through the bronchi into his left lung and impairing its ability to transfer oxygen.

While a frangible bullet could be explained away, in a head wound, as a full metal jacket bullet that behaved oddly and broke up, such was not the case with the back wound. The long slender FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet is very stable, and capable of tremendous penetration in flesh. An FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet entering JFK's back at 2000 fps, at the level of T3, was more than capable of going through JFK (exiting midway down his sternum), the jump seat and Connally, and possibly having enough legs to still wound Kellerman.

If JFK appears to be choking at z224, It's likely because he had been shot in the throat.

Seriously, you read that entire post, and that is the only comment you can come up with?

[Cliff Varnell]

Martin Hay is another example of the Seriously Ambitious Researcher who can't correctly identify the location of JFK's back wound.

Since the clothing/T3-back-wound evidence is the prima facie case for conspiracy, the Seriously Ambitious get cranky and resentful when it's cited.

Renders so much of their work moot, you see.

[Martin Hay]

[Cliff Varnell]

One man's thread-hijack is another man's fake-debate shaming.

Shame on those who fake debate with David Von Pein.

[Martin Hay]

[Cliff Varnell]

:"When the discourse turns weird the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson, more or less.

From da Bug's RH, pg 170-1

<quote on>

In the small alcove of the autopsy room at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole, clips the last

of the x-rays into a light box. Nothing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed and still the doctors have been unable

to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go?" someone asks.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility that a soft-nosed

bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been "plastic," and therefore not easily seen by

x-rays, or that is was an "Ice" bullet, which had dissolved after contact. None of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the

absence of a bullet. FBI agent James Sibert decided to call the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would

completely fragmentize He managed to reach Special Agent Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of

such a thing. <quote off>

Looks like Killion was a big fat prevaricator

From the Church Committee testimony of blood soluble weapon developer Charles Senseney, pg 166:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Senator Baker: Your principle job with the DOD, I take it, was to develop new or exotic devices and weapons; is that correct?

Mr. Senseney: I was a project engineer for the E-1, which was type classified and became the M-1. They were done for the Army.

Senator Baker: Were you an Army employee?

Mr. Senseney: I am an Army employee. I still am.

Senator Baker: But in the course of your employment by the Army, you made your work product and developments available to the CIA,

to the FBI, and to anyone else.

Mr. Senseney: I think the only other ones that possibly looked at the display was US Customs.

Senator Baker: Anyone else?

Mr. Senseney: Not to my knowledge. There could have been.

Senator Baker: Did you ever have contact with anyone else about special devices, anybody at the White House, the IRS, at the DEA,

or the DIA, any of these other agencies? There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence of law enforcement

work.

Mr. Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes.

Senator Baker: Did you have any other customers?

Mr. Senseney: To my knowledge our only customer was the Special Forces, and the CIA, I guess.

Senator Baker: Special Forces meaning Special Forces of the Army?

Mr. Senseney: That is correct.

Senator Baker: And the FBI?

Mr. Senseney: The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the

country. <quote off>

The money shot: "I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes."

Edited July 13, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Robert Prudhomme]

:"When the discourse turns weird the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson, more or less.

From da Bug's RH, pg 170-1

<quote on>

In the small alcove of the autopsy room at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole, clips the last

of the x-rays into a light box. N.othing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed and still the doctors have been unable

to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go?" someone asks.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility that a soft-nosed

bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been "plastic," and therefore not easily seen by

x-rays, or that is was an "Ice" bullet, which had dissolved after contact. None of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the

absence of a bullet. FBI agent James Sibert decided to call the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would

completely fragmentize He managed to reach Special Agent Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of

such a thing. <quote off>

Looks like Killion was a big fat xxxx.

From the Church Committee testimony of blood soluble weapon developer Charles Senseney, pg 166:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Senator Baker: Your principle job with the DOD, I take it, was to develop new or exotic devices and weapons; is that correct?

Mr. Senseney: I was a project engineer for the E-1, which was type classified and became the M-1. They were done for the Army.

Senator Baker: Were you an Army employee?

Mr. Senseney: I am an Army employee. I still am.

Senator Baker: But in the course of your employment by the Army, you made your work product and developments available to the CIA,

to the FBI, and to anyone else.

Mr. Senseney: I think the only other ones that possibly looked at the display was US Customs.

Senator Baker: Anyone else?

Mr. Senseney: Not to my knowledge. There could have been.

Senator Baker: Did you ever have contact with anyone else about special devices, anybody at the White House, the IRS, at the DEA,

or the DIA, any of these other agencies? There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence of law enforcement

work.

Mr. Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes.

Senator Baker: Did you have any other customers?

Mr. Senseney: To my knowledge our only customer was the Special Forces, and the CIA, I guess.

Senator Baker: Special Forces meaning Special Forces of the Army?

Mr. Senseney: That is correct.

Senator Baker: And the FBI?

Mr. Senseney: The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the

country. <quote off>

The money shot: " I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes."

Once Jerrol Custer testified to the ARRB that the heart and lungs had been removed from JFK's chest PRIOR to Custer's arrival with the x-ray equipment, I believe the mystery of the "disappearing" bullet had been solved.

[Cliff Varnell]

:"When the discourse turns weird the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson, more or less.

From da Bug's RH, pg 170-1

<quote on>

In the small alcove of the autopsy room at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole, clips the last

of the x-rays into a light box. N.othing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed and still the doctors have been unable

to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go?" someone asks.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility that a soft-nosed

bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been "plastic," and therefore not easily seen by

x-rays, or that is was an "Ice" bullet, which had dissolved after contact. None of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the

absence of a bullet. FBI agent James Sibert decided to call the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would

completely fragmentize He managed to reach Special Agent Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of

such a thing. <quote off>

Looks like Killion was a big fat xxxx.

From the Church Committee testimony of blood soluble weapon developer Charles Senseney, pg 166:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Senator Baker: Your principle job with the DOD, I take it, was to develop new or exotic devices and weapons; is that correct?

Mr. Senseney: I was a project engineer for the E-1, which was type classified and became the M-1. They were done for the Army.

Senator Baker: Were you an Army employee?

Mr. Senseney: I am an Army employee. I still am.

Senator Baker: But in the course of your employment by the Army, you made your work product and developments available to the CIA,

to the FBI, and to anyone else.

Mr. Senseney: I think the only other ones that possibly looked at the display was US Customs.

Senator Baker: Anyone else?

Mr. Senseney: Not to my knowledge. There could have been.

Senator Baker: Did you ever have contact with anyone else about special devices, anybody at the White House, the IRS, at the DEA,

or the DIA, any of these other agencies? There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence of law enforcement

work.

Mr. Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes.

Senator Baker: Did you have any other customers?

Mr. Senseney: To my knowledge our only customer was the Special Forces, and the CIA, I guess.

Senator Baker: Special Forces meaning Special Forces of the Army?

Mr. Senseney: That is correct.

Senator Baker: And the FBI?

Mr. Senseney: The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the

country. <quote off>

The money shot: " I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes."

Once Jerrol Custer testified to the ARRB that the heart and lungs had been removed from JFK's chest PRIOR to Custer's arrival with the x-ray equipment, I believe the mystery of the "disappearing" bullet had been solved.

That doesn't preclude the possibility JFK was hit in the back with a blood soluble round.

And there were two wounds with disappearing bullets.

The throat shot entered, didn't exit, no round recovered during the autopsy.

They weren't allowed to touch the throat.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Robert Prudhomme]

:"When the discourse turns weird the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson, more or less.

From da Bug's RH, pg 170-1

<quote on>

In the small alcove of the autopsy room at the Bethesda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole, clips the last

of the x-rays into a light box. N.othing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed and still the doctors have been unable

to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go?" someone asks.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility that a soft-nosed

bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been "plastic," and therefore not easily seen by

x-rays, or that is was an "Ice" bullet, which had dissolved after contact. None of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the

absence of a bullet. FBI agent James Sibert decided to call the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would

completely fragmentize He managed to reach Special Agent Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of

such a thing. <quote off>

Looks like Killion was a big fat xxxx.

From the Church Committee testimony of blood soluble weapon developer Charles Senseney, pg 166:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

<quote on>

Senator Baker: Your principle job with the DOD, I take it, was to develop new or exotic devices and weapons; is that correct?

Mr. Senseney: I was a project engineer for the E-1, which was type classified and became the M-1. They were done for the Army.

Senator Baker: Were you an Army employee?

Mr. Senseney: I am an Army employee. I still am.

Senator Baker: But in the course of your employment by the Army, you made your work product and developments available to the CIA,

to the FBI, and to anyone else.

Mr. Senseney: I think the only other ones that possibly looked at the display was US Customs.

Senator Baker: Anyone else?

Mr. Senseney: Not to my knowledge. There could have been.

Senator Baker: Did you ever have contact with anyone else about special devices, anybody at the White House, the IRS, at the DEA,

or the DIA, any of these other agencies? There are about 60 agencies of Government that do either intelligence of law enforcement

work.

Mr. Senseney: I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes.

Senator Baker: Did you have any other customers?

Mr. Senseney: To my knowledge our only customer was the Special Forces, and the CIA, I guess.

Senator Baker: Special Forces meaning Special Forces of the Army?

Mr. Senseney: That is correct.

Senator Baker: And the FBI?

Mr. Senseney: The FBI never used anything. They were only shown so they could be aware of what might be brought into the

country. <quote off>

The money shot: " I am sure most all of those knew of what we were doing; yes."

Once Jerrol Custer testified to the ARRB that the heart and lungs had been removed from JFK's chest PRIOR to Custer's arrival with the x-ray equipment, I believe the mystery of the "disappearing" bullet had been solved.

That doesn't preclude the possibility JFK was hit in the back with a blood soluble round.

And there were two wounds with disappearing bullets.

The throat shot entered, didn't exit, no round recovered during the autopsy.

They weren't allowed to touch the throat.

No, you are correct. Both your scenario and the one I propose are distinct possibilities, and both have evidence to show either may have occurred. Unfortunately, with so much of the medical evidence missing or altered, it is unlikely that either of us will ever be proven correct.

It is interesting to note that Custer also testified that the x-rays of JFK's neck he claims to have seen showed many small fragments in the vicinity of vertebrae C3/C4.

[Michael Cross]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

You're funny, Martin. The truth is, of course, that ANY "body landmark" is going to be FIXED (i.e., immobile) during a post-mortem examination---because wounds are being located from landmarks while the body is in the anatomic ("autopsy") position---rigid and straight. And that's true for the mastoid process or any other body landmark.

DVP

March/April 2015

And here is the perfect example of the type of fallacious argument used by DVP. Yes, body landmarks are fixed, in that they occur on every human body. Human bodies however, vary greatly from one to another. My mastoid process will be in a slight different position than yours based on the shape of our skulls. However, the bigger point is that each body has it's own proportions. My neck is of a different diameter and LENGTH than your neck. 14cm from MY mastoid process will be a different point on MY body that it is on yours.

[David Von Pein]

I agree, Michael Cross. You're exactly right. Every human body is different in many subtle ways.

Now, try telling that to Bob "THE BULLET COULDN'T HAVE MISSED JFK'S VERTEBRAE" Prudhomme.

[Michael Cross]

Can't help you there. The combination of documented lateral location and trajectory cross the center line of the body, based on that WC evidence you love so much.

[Ron Ecker]

Once Jerrol Custer testified to the ARRB that the heart and lungs had been removed from JFK's chest PRIOR to Custer's arrival with the x-ray equipment, I believe the mystery of the "disappearing" bullet had been solved.

Well at least he took some x-rays. That's better than the guy who did the autopsy on Vince Foster. He didn't take any x-rays because he said the machine wasn't working.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Ron Ecker @ #104:

Ron, you sound like a conspiracy theorist.

I want to join your camp.

I have strict rules, however. For concepts, like Vince Foster was murdered, I'm pretty loose. For details, like evidence, I'm pretty strict.