David Josephs Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) David @ post #209: I can buy that there were two boys who looked alike, whose paths appeared to cross, who came to the attention of a watchful intelligence service. I can buy that. It's within the realm of reality. "appeared to cross" This was not some random chance... the CIA (edit: those who become the CIA) worked hand in hand with the Nazis to save their upper echelon. It is IMO a foregone conclusion they taught us a thing or two about children, genetics and spying. Dulles and Angleton were WWII vets of the extreme nature. Wars, governments and men come and go - ideology and process remains for those transiently in power. It is very possible that some of the basics of genetics were employed to find "assets" for future use... The other real possibility is that they were found to look similar at age 17-18 and their back stories were selectively created... I'm just not sure of the how since I'm not in that business... the "moving forward in time" versus "creating the view backward" is something that requires a great deal of concentrated analysis... and still remains difficult to wrap one's head around... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt Edited April 7, 2015 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 DJ, Do you believe the Nazis had a good, perhaps a very good, body of knowledge? As to genetics, rocket science, Soviet capabilities, and the like? I do. I also believe the Japanese had a good study of infectious diseases. I also believe the U.S. wanted Japanese and Nazi experimental knowledge. In the early 1960s, the U.S. had put the war against Germany and Japan to bed. Yet the U.S. sought to extract from the Japanese and the Nazis what it could learn. Does any of this, if it's the case, play into the assassination? I think not. I think the assassination was about going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Jon... (please excuse the soapbox rant, warranted as it may be in response to your question) A little while back, after years of "JFK Assassination all the time every time" I took a step back and made some realizations akin to Galileo and the earth NOT being the center of the universe... The JFK Assassination is not at the center of historical conspiracy and greed but one of the many celestial bodies which revolves around a core of mankind who has always taken advantage of others for their own purposes. Taking the most negative aspects of the Tragedy of the Commons to covertly and overtly gain control of the resources of humanity and the planet it lives upon. Ownership & property rights all hearken back to Bankers and Lawyers writing the rules and owning the assets. History is the story of any one set of these people doing everything they can to take and keep as much as possible You can read Plato describing the problems with the ruling elite thousands of years ago we can learn what "sovereignty" means and how it too is used to wage and justify war or the illusion of defense against it. Those that rule this little planet were doing so long before John and will be doing so long after unless mankind as a whole changes, evolves. Good luck with that. JFK threatened the very fabric of the wool covering the eyes of the sheep who provided the raw materials to build the cover in the first place... To believe that any of this "ends" or is "put to bed" is to deny history and how man works. Labels like "countries" "nations" "alliances" are in reality part of the facade... like energy, WEALTH/POWER simply changes form and moves from one area of physical reality to another The names change but the ideology and process remains to be used over and over The sheep do not know they are being led to the slaughter - it would upset them too much and make it impossible to control them. Dr. King, JFK and a handful of others rose above and made the sheep look up from their grazing and get MAD... to want more than the same old BS Is it a coincidence that the communications explosion of TV and the telling of these horrors makes it appear as if none of this stuff ever happened before 1963? The assassination in my opinion was but a very small point in a huge spiderweb of conspiracy and control which includes and uses any and all resources within its grasp - and that grasp is virtually limitless. Sadly, it is this part of humanity that has taken control and built up wall after wall to insure it retains this control. The assassination was, again in my opinion, a public flexing of these muscles and shows how these walls are impossible to topple no matter what the sheep see/know or can prove they saw/knew. It was never about going forward but about disenfranchising the individual to accept that the human cause is hopeless, and to move on.. the response?... "you want fries with that while we watch Honey boo-boo?" =============== When Dr. Crenshaw finally broke his silence in 1992, he wrote: “I believe there was a common denominator in our silence – a fearful perception that to come forward with what we believed to be the medical truth would be asking for trouble. Although we never admitted it to one another, we realized that the inertia of the established story was so powerful, so thoroughly presented, so adamantly accepted, that it would bury anyone who stood in its path… I was afraid of the men in suits as I was afraid of the men who had assassinated the President… I reasoned that anyone who would go so far as to eliminate the President of the United States would surely not hesitate to kill a doctor.” =============== The American people, since World War II, or World War I, or the Spanish American War -- take your choice -- have witnessed the tip of many criminal icebergs. The official investigations of the criminal icebergs almost always stopped at the waterline. The other 90 percent of the criminal icebergs were never hauled onto the beach for complete examination, prosecution and correction. The criminal cases of 1980 to the present are in perfect harmony with this honored tradition. This is, of course, why Americans are the most profoundly ignorant people on planet earth. The illusion of knowledge is far worse than knowing you don't know. ------------------ "The American system is the most ingenious system of control in world history. With a country so rich in natural resources, talent, and labor power the system can afford to distribute just enough to just enough people to limit discontent to a troublesome minority. It is a country so powerful, so big, so pleasing to so many of its citizens that it can afford to give freedom of dissent to the small number who are not pleased. How wise to turn the fear and anger of the majority toward a class of criminals bred - by economic inequity - faster than they can be put away, deflecting attention from the huge thefts of national resources carried out within the law by men in executive offices." Howard Zinn: A People's History of the United States Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Great post David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 David Josephs, Focus your thinking on why JFK was killed. That is the central question. Do you believe it was because he was soft on communism? I believe, FWIW, it was because of his Middle-Eastern policy. LBJ favored Israel in the 1960s. And disregarded Egypt. And went to war in Viet Nam. Why, in your opinion, was JFK killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well Jon... that be the $64K Q.... A while back I was exposed to the Drago-Evica Model of SPONSORS-FACILITATORS-MECHANICS. The nitty gritty details of which as offered by the authors are up for discussion in my opinion yet the model is one that makes discussion and context possible. In a nutshell, the Sponsors where in the position to make that kind of decision and insure their own insulation from guilt or accusation The Facilitators are the ones with the skills and resources to produce the plan which Mechanics carried out. If one asks a Mechanic why... it all depends on who the Mechanic represents: Cubans-for breaking his word and letting thousands die; Birch Society-for his liberalism; CIA/Military-for his treason Why the Mechanic thinks he was killed is really of no matter in the grand scheme of things as long as they do their jobs. Their bosses, the Facilitator level, grants them life, death, wealth, asylum, etc... Anything to insure the job gets done. The FACILITATORS are directly beholden to the Sponsors for it was the Sponsor level that placed them where they are. Facilitators are the part of the Military Industrial Congressional Complex that we are aware of, that make the news and upon which the stories and novels are based. Facilitators are more interested in Continuity of Government with them in control. Period. They are the ones fighting the nasty -ism's that change over time. Terrorism being the flavor of this century. Ask them and the answer is that JFK was making it impossible to do what they needed to insure "Our way of life prevails". The SPONSOR. Oh, the Sponsor. This to me is the level of people who supercede nations and governments. Their one and only purpose is to insure their survival and complete ownership of the game, the rules and the outcomes. The Board of Haliburton does not care about the ideology of those who sign the contract. IBM's board did not care what the Nazis were doing with their machines as long as they kept buying punch cards. When Nixon lost, the Sponsors lost one of their key Facilitators. Prescott Bush hand picked the man as a facilitator for Brown-Harriman et al. 8 years of build-up and what finally happened in 1963, 65 & 68 might have happened years earlier. During this time from 1945 to 1960 the reason for Ike's warning was not only born but grew to the monster it was - Ike was Right. Politics, nations and governments are tools of the Sponsor class. Without being flippant - Bankers and Lawyers Jon. Control of the money supply, control of the laws of the land. Do you honestly think it matters to Big Business who is elected? At the Facilitator level yes... not for Sponsors. Money and Power is to be made with the ebb and flow of such trival, human, everyday things. I truly believe that the Sponsor level gave serious thought how to wield their Money and Power now that JFK was elected. It may not be as easy as with Nixon but the USA, the president was not the make or break of the Sponsor, and never would be. Until JFK started to take the side of the public need. JFK, like so many before him, used all at his disposal to take the election from Nixon, maybe even fraudulently. The Sponsor thinks, okay, this man has the greed and desire to do what it takes, maybe we can be okay with him.... But then, little by little and one by one JFK attacks all that the Sponsor holds dear as to the causality of their wealth and power. JFK wanting Peace does not mean they'd sell less food, or fewer TV's - in the short term. But in the Long Term people who do not live in a constant state of fear, a self-realized understanding of true uselessness to fight the system realize they can join together and question WHY. Why do THEY have and we don't? They start to believe they can DO something about it. Ms. Antoinette found out the hard way just to name one. And is why we see small examples of this being squashed all the time - if not squashed then a facade is created, "democracy" or some other "better way" is offered until the attentions of the world focus elsewhere. Then it's back to SOP. When JFK starts in on the FED, on the JCS, on the CIA. On reversing Foreign policy, on FAIRNESS for all people over everything else - he was doomed in the eyes of the Sponsor. The Facilitators role is to insure their Continuity. The Sponsor grants this continuity via laws, loans and protection. Why, in my opinion, was JFK killed? He was not one of them, was not ever going to be and in the end would be perceived as their worst enemy. He had won the hearts and minds of the PEOPLE the Sponsors wanted to maintain control over and would most definitley lead the revolutionary charge (this too is why Bobby was killed). By 1960 their power, exercised at the Facilitator level, had risen to heights hardly ever seen in the US whereas in the rest of the world, the understanding of these simple principles are thousands of years old. The results of these principles are thousands of years old. Americans are so ethnocentric as to believe that political assassination does not visit them... and for good reason. The Sponsors have created it that way via their Facilitators in Media. By 1960 I truly believe the MICC leaders felt untouchable like no group of people in human history. This is not paranoia by any means. Just the way of Humans throughout history. Oh we have our moments but on a whole we have a pretty xxxxty track record these last 5000 years. FDR was fronting for the Bankers and Lawyers Ike was playing Golf while Nixon turned the Executive Branch into a cesspool NIXON as Pres in 1960 may have ushered in an era of greater growth and wealth than the 50's were while widening the gap between Rich and poor which we see today so plainly. I think it would have also ushered in an era of greater secrecy, greater control, more FBI anti-youth anti-minority, etc.... But JFK took it. We have not had an independent, thinking, humanity-first president since... All us people running around thinking it was Israel or Egypt or Vietnam or the Treasury or South Africa or Human rights are, in my little opinion, thinking within the world we see and understand, not the world of the SPONSOR. The enduring world of wealth, power, influence and unaccountability... A world that if you're not one of US - you simply have no clue. And if you somehow get to be one of us, you're not about to let anyone in on the secret. My $.02 Jon. All we have are the day to day choices of right from wrong and whether we offer love in our hearts when making these decisions. When and if we as a species decide to rise above our evolutionary limits, maybe a new day will dawn. Our greatest and worst attribute - hope. Keeps us going yet overshadows an intelligent look at our history and the inevitable cause and effect we see repeated ad nauseum. Peace DJ (Excerpts from American University) I have, therefore, chosen this time and this place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth is too rarely perceived--yet it is the most important topic on earth: world peace.What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time. --- Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or world disarmament--and that it will be useless until the leaders of the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must reexamine our own attitude--as individuals and as a Nation--for our attitude is as essential as theirs. And every graduate of this school, every thoughtful citizen who despairs of war and wishes to bring peace, should begin by looking inward--by examining his own attitude toward the possibilities of peace, toward the Soviet Union, toward the course of the cold war and toward freedom and peace here at home --- The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough--more than enough--of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success. Confident and unafraid, we labor on--not toward a strategy of annihilation but toward a strategy of peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Excellent, IMO, David. A very well put argument that, imo, covers all matters necessary to begin to see the assassination, and many machinations of the 'ststus quo', clearly. edit typo Edited April 8, 2015 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Greatly appreciated - maybe I got a book in me yet... DJ PS.. To be honest, I've got a nice handful of gigs source material for my "Bankers & Lawyers: The History of Control and Conspiracy" that I hope to get to writing one day. First my reference source on the Mexico City example of FBI evidence creation and then a series of articles on how the Evidence IS the Conspiracy looking at a dozen or so aspects of the case which illustrate the point. If I could only quit my Day Job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 David, Very nice summation. Your "Bankers and Lawyers" material sounds like it will be quite interesting. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-weisbrot/are-the-european-authorit_b_6978814.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 DJ, Bravo. Keep it going. I think you are right as to all the points you make. I especially like your perception that JFK was independent and that this independence put him at risk. I also like your concept of SPONSOR as someone for whom the critical issues are so far removed from the ordinary citizens of countries such as Israel, South Viet Nam, and the United States. Previously, I nominated McGeorge Bundy as someone I believe you would call a FACILITATOR. I see someone having the financial and power profile of the Rockefeller brothers (David and Nelson) as being the SPONSOR. It's easy for me to believe that with such powerful players orchestrating and calling the shots, LBJ and even J.E. Hoover would salute and say, "Yes, sir." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Again, thanks for the kind words... only took me 20 years to get here. (btw - the Model was offered by Charles Drago and Michael Evica - I am simply using it as a context and vocabulary for ease of discussion) To Me Bundy is both Sponsor connected and Facilitator functional as opposed to say LBJ who would never be allowed into the SPONSOR circles. Same with Hoover as you mention. But the Sponsors are not so follish as to let nothing but Facilitators run the show. Harriman, McCloy, Acheson, Lovett, Bohlen - 5 of the 6 "Wise Men" (a book worth getting btw) and Bundy can be seen as SPONSOR-Facilitators (Kennan being the 6th and never on the inside) Yet the real talent of the SPONSOR is to be invisible. The Rock's are always first on the list along with the Rothschilds, the Morgan's, DuPont and we haven't even gotten out of the US yet. Rockefeller and the Uber-wealthy families of the world are of course the SPONSORS. I believe the number is something like 250,000 people own 90% of the world's wealth. Most you will never have heard of and never will. The Koch's are among some of today's most visible sponsor-demons. Yet again... the everyday person would not know these SPONSORS by name - and purposefully so. You've heard of the State Street Corp? I hadn't. It controls a $7 TRILLION Trust - and surprise surprise it is based out of Boston Mass. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Street_Corporation Jay Hooley Pres, CEO is not on the Forbes 100... but I would venture to say that he has SOME leverage in the world. https://www.aba.com/Tools/Research/Documents/Top25InstitutionsbyTrustAssets.pdf is a list of Trusts overseeing $17 TRILLION in Assets with the Bank of NY-MELLON 2nd on the list A detour here to Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr... Hamilton founded the BANK OF NY, Burr the BANK OF THE MANHATTAN CO which becomes CHASE/JP Morgan Chase both fought to become THE NATIONAL BANK OF THE US while trying to convince us that this was what WASHINGTON wanted... which is as far from the truth as possible. Jefferson and Washington knew the evils of the Bank of England and the control Rothschild had over it and all the other National banks he had his sons create all over the world Hamilton and Burr were part of the start of the US SPONSORS we refer to here in this discussion. Morgan was understood and operated as an agent of Rothschild. ============================================== Are you ready to be blown away Jon? It was this passage about BELL in Prouty's book that got me started with Bankers and Lawyers. He doesn't say who they are but mentions TEXTRON once I think. I wanted to know more since the SPONSOR model made sense to me but no one I had read pointed a finger at a specific SPONSOR and made a JFK connection... In Prouty's book on JFK and Vietnam this comes up only a couple of times and is not followed up. Prouty says the decision to buy BELL HELICOPTER began with a Boston Bank VP asking the CIA's Charles Cabell (brother of the mayor of Dallas) whether it would be a good idea given the political outlook for war and the potential use of helicopters to fight said wars. Charles Pearre Cabell (October 11, 1903 – May 25, 1971) was an United States Air Force General and Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Earle Cabell (October 27, 1906 – September 24, 1975), was a Texas politician who served as mayor of Dallas, Texas. Cabell was mayor at the time of the assassination of John F. Kennedy and was later a member of the U.S. House of Representatives The CIA ultimately manueved the resupply of Helicopters in the SE Asia region which required the restocking of helicopters waiting to go to Viet Nam. (I suggest you read the book) The decision to use helicopters was pisspoor given the war to be fought and the manpower needed to maintain helicopter battalions... but no matter BELL HELICOPTERS were chosen to fight the Vietnam War and the rest is history. More people died related to helicopters and their malfunctions than is ever realized... When you look into the history of TEXTRON, what they did to the Textile industry of the US and why and with WHO's backing you start to get into the world of the SPONSOR which includes SUN LIFE of Montreal, the largest of Insurance and Assurance companies. TEXTRON was the world's first conglomerate put together with Rothschild Bank of England money to desimate the US Textile industry in favor of English textile imports... Textron (NYSE: TXT) is an American industrial conglomerate. Textron includes Bell Helicopter, Cessna Aircraft, and other components. It was founded by Royal Little in 1923 as the Special Yarns Company, and is now headquartered in Providence, Rhode Island. http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1978/eirv05n04-19780131/eirv05n04-19780131_028-gw_miller_and_textron_a_study_in.pdf (I do not agree with some of his JFK attacks but the info on TEXTRON's history, Arthur Little, Miller and the law firms and Bankers is there as a great launching point). The high-technology branch of Textron operations began quietly in Massachusetts in 1946 as the American Research and Development Corporation. a three million dollar venture-capital firm. It was founded by the Sun Life Assurance of London through its Boston operative. Paul F. Clark. president of the John Hancock Life Insurance Company and director of First National of Boston. the bank whose extraordinary largess built Textron. Also founding ARD was Oscar W. Haussmann. a top corporate lawyer and chairman of the New England Industrial Research Foundation and the Boston Municipal Research Bureau. and Lessing J. Rosenwalt of Sears Roebuck and Kuhn Loeb. . Control is exercised by Sun Life of Canada through its chairman. Alistair M. Campbell who sits on the ARD board. and sat on Textron's before their formal merger in 1972. In 1956 (G. William) Miller joined Textron as a vice president. As the October 1971 Fortune magazine described it. "Miller came to Textron in 1956 from the prestigious Wall Street firm of Cravath. Swaine and Moore after Royal Little was impressed with his work in a raucous proxy fight with American Woolen." When Kennedy campaigned for the presidency in 1960, he declared there was an enormous "missile gap" between the U. S. and the Soviet Union. It was a lie, which greatly impaired U.S.-USSR relations and recalled the Cold War days. Meanwhile at Harvard, British agent Henry Kissinger published, under the direction of the Council on Foreign Affairs (headed by John McCloy) his "Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy." This book and the Research and Development Corporation (Rand) limited nuclear war thesis became the cornerstone of the Kennedy reorganization of the Pentagon. The essential shift in government contracts to gimmickry rather than fundamental technological breakthroughs meant that American development was being sabotaged. Rand madman Robert Strange McNamara became Secretary of Defense while Cravath Swain and Moore partner, Roswell Gilpatrick became the number two man in Defense. This opened a whole new phase in Textron development. Textron bought Bell Helicopter in July of 1960, four months before the election. Bell's sales were down an even hundred million in 1959 from nearly double that in 1953. Textron bought the company for what was considered one of the worst deals of the year - $32 million or exactly the company's book value. Yet Rupert C. Thompson, Jr. ; " then Textron Chairman (Miller was President) , boasted, "We knew we had our objective - 25 percent pre-tax profit on our investment - from day one." That was a pretty cocky statement by the head of a company that had $98 million in long-term debt, large amounts of warrants and convertible preferred stock outstanding, and was running out of tax credits. Since 1953 the company had not paid a penny in tax, having run up a tax credit as high as $45 million in 1956. Textron faced full tax liability by 1963. , In fact the company was heading for bankruptcy. Yet somehow, the Prudential Life Insurance Company of Newark, a Morgan influenced firm, provided a $25 million unsecured note to Textron, with a six-year grace period on repayments. A most un-insurance companylike type of loan. With the loan, Textron bought Bell and remarkably, helicopter orders zoomed up 50 percent between 1961 and 1962. Bell's UH-IB and UH-IB Iroquois were heavily ordered for JFK's Vietnam War (DJ: JFK's war?? not so much). With this kick, Textron began another round of acquisitions, now heavily defense or machine-tool oriented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 David Josephs, The "airmobile doctrine," which led to the creation of the First Air Cavalry Division (the "Cav"), was in the making before the U.S. plunged into war in Viet Nam. By the mid-1960s, the Army was itching to try out its new doctrine. Viet Nam offered the perfect opportunity. The Army, without any outside prodding, was completely on board with the air mobile doctrine, which as it has evolved has become a central feature of modern ground combat for the U.S. Unlike others, I don't see the rise of Bell Helicopter to be anything other than part of the good old MIC, with a lot of emphasis on the "M" in MIC. Helicopters did serve well in Viet Nam. They and their airmobile troops did not prove to be overwhelmingly effective against the VC and NVA; but helicopters did, by and large, live up to the expectations that they would be an efficient way of shuttling troops, artillery, munitions, and supplies onto the battlefield. Specialized helicopters such as dedicated gunships proved to be very good in some situations at supporting U.S. ground troops. I know that among Vietnam veterans there are lots and lots of harrowing stories involving helicopters. There's no doubt, however, that the use of helicopters in ground combat became a permanent feature of the U.S. military in the wake of the war. My point is, the Army wanted to use helicopters and got its way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 David Josephs, The "airmobile doctrine," which led to the creation of the First Air Cavalry Division (the "Cav"), was in the making before the U.S. plunged into war in Viet Nam. By the mid-1960s, the Army was itching to try out its new doctrine. Viet Nam offered the perfect opportunity. The Army, without any outside prodding, was completely on board with the air mobile doctrine, which as it has evolved has become a central feature of modern ground combat for the U.S. Unlike others, I don't see the rise of Bell Helicopter to be anything other than part of the good old MIC, with a lot of emphasis on the "M" in MIC. Helicopters did serve well in Viet Nam. They and their airmobile troops did not prove to be overwhelmingly effective against the VC and NVA; but helicopters did, by and large, live up to the expectations that they would be an efficient way of shuttling troops, artillery, munitions, and supplies onto the battlefield. Specialized helicopters such as dedicated gunships proved to be very good in some situations at supporting U.S. ground troops. I know that among Vietnam veterans there are lots and lots of harrowing stories involving helicopters. There's no doubt, however, that the use of helicopters in ground combat became a permanent feature of the U.S. military in the wake of the war. My point is, the Army wanted to use helicopters and got its way. So the Vietnam war was good for LBJ and Texas-based Bell Helicopter. And Texas-based General Dynamics. Going from memory here, but --- I believe vice president LBJ said to the Joint Chiefs or the CIA or somebody, "You just get me elected and you can have your damn war." Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 Tommy, If LBJ said that, he must have said it in the 1964 campaign against Goldwater. Wow. Thanks for that. It sure portrays the times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) David Josephs, The "airmobile doctrine," which led to the creation of the First Air Cavalry Division (the "Cav"), was in the making before the U.S. plunged into war in Viet Nam. By the mid-1960s, the Army was itching to try out its new doctrine. Viet Nam offered the perfect opportunity. The Army, without any outside prodding, was completely on board with the air mobile doctrine, which as it has evolved has become a central feature of modern ground combat for the U.S. Unlike others, I don't see the rise of Bell Helicopter to be anything other than part of the good old MIC, with a lot of emphasis on the "M" in MIC. Helicopters did serve well in Viet Nam. They and their airmobile troops did not prove to be overwhelmingly effective against the VC and NVA; but helicopters did, by and large, live up to the expectations that they would be an efficient way of shuttling troops, artillery, munitions, and supplies onto the battlefield. Specialized helicopters such as dedicated gunships proved to be very good in some situations at supporting U.S. ground troops. I know that among Vietnam veterans there are lots and lots of harrowing stories involving helicopters. There's no doubt, however, that the use of helicopters in ground combat became a permanent feature of the U.S. military in the wake of the war. My point is, the Army wanted to use helicopters and got its way. Jon, One of the more amazing things about the VietNam "war" is how much the average person does not know related to why, who, the Hamlet program and the complete waste of money and lives helicopters wound up costing the US. Not sure what your feelings are about Prouty but he was in a most critical role as liaison between the Military and CIA operational support... JFK: The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy by Fletcher Prouty may be one of the most important books you'll ever read about how "eff'd up" the entire SE Asia situation was and why that silly little island thing 90 miles off Florida was dropped the same week JFK was assassinated. A comparison of the NSAMs before and after Bundy rewrites it between what JFK was to sign and what LBJ signed is also a large key to why he was eliminated. DJ Edited April 12, 2015 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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