Was There a Set-up Distinct from the Cover-up?

[Thomas Graves]

It's not just that Edward Lansdale was at Dealey Plaza that day, but I've seen some photographs which suggest to me that Jesus Angleton was also there, as well as George Joannides, as well as Anne Goodpasture. If so -- WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE?

The operation was paramilitary. I count at least 7 shots. The shooters had spotters who were also radio men, and they used walkie talkies as well as an umbrella signal to coordinate shooting.

<edit typos>

I'd like to see these additional photo IDs in Dealey.

Well, David, here's one that I think is James Jesus Angelton. What do you think?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear "Garibaldi" Trejo,

Angleton was taller and skinnier than that guy.

The guy in the photograph looks more like LBJ's criminal crony Billy Sol Estes to me.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKestes.htm

--Tommy

Edited April 25, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Dear "Garibaldi" Trejo,

Angleton was taller and skinnier than that guy.

The guy in the photograph looks more like LBJ's criminal crony Billy Sol Estes to me.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKestes.htm

--Tommy

No, Tommy, because Billy Sol Estes had a fatter face, a squarer jaw, a puggier nose, and parted his hair on the right-hand side.

--Paul

[Paul Trejo]

It's not just that Edward Lansdale was at Dealey Plaza that day, but I've seen some photographs which suggest to me that Jesus Angleton was also there, as well as George Joannides, as well as Anne Goodpasture. If so -- WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE?

The operation was paramilitary. I count at least 7 shots. The shooters had spotters who were also radio men, and they used walkie talkies as well as an umbrella signal to coordinate shooting.

If you're puzzled by this Mark, it may be because I am willing to admit the participation of CIA Rogues (e.g. Morales and Hunt, who confessed) inside a citizens' right-wing movement that hovers New Orleans but centers in Dallas and especially members of the DPD as guided by Edwin Walker.

I cannot yet decide how many CIA officers might have supported Morales on his war-path -- I mostly find CIA groupies (rather than CIA officers) in that mix, including Frank Sturgis, John Martino, Johnny Roselli, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin, David Ferrie and Thomas Beckham.

The beauty of the plot is that all of these same players are equally convincing as mercenaries encouraged by the CIA in the war against Fidel Castro. Thus, the patsy could easily be led to believe he was pretending to be Director of this Fake FPCC in New Orleans as part of a CIA plot to kill Fidel Castro.

Surely some CIA involvement is admitted -- I am forced by historical circumstance (i.e. confession) to admit it. But the extent is still unclear. Were the standard CIA officers really involved -- Angleton, Phillips, Joannides, Goodpasture and Lansdale -- or were these players just as fooled as Lee Harvey Oswald when the plot turned against JFK?

As Bill Simpich showed last year, the CIA Mole-Hunt starting in Mexico City due to the Impersonation of OSWALD on Tuesday 1 October 1963 is evidence that can be used to prove that the CIA was internally divided, and had no clue about who Impersonated Oswald.

This, better than anything I've seen, explains why so many photographs of Oswald in Mexico City, as well as transcripts of his words, were "redacted" by the CIA.

As Larry Hancock implies, if Lansdale really was in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/1963 as Fletcher Prouty claimed, then perhaps he was there for a benign reason, e.g. investigating rumors of a plot to kill JFK.

Anyway -- a few CIA folks were surely involved -- but that still doesn't make the JFK murder a CIA plot, in my opinion. It could still be a civilian plot.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 29, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Did the plotters identify Oswald as the patsy in advance of the assassination?

I have to believe so, but that belief raises many questions. For example, how did the plotters in March 1963 know to fabricate the order of an M-C rifle to A. Hidell? The answer, I know, is -- they didn't. The fabrication was done by the FBI with the help of Klein's post assassination.

All right. Oswald didn't order the rifle. The FBI, with the help of Klein's, produces documents saying he did. That's cover-up, not set-up.

So wait a minute. Oswald is being framed post-assassination.

So why?

[John Dolva]

Inconvenient questions, Jon.

I don't know. Either, or other, way, I think there are reasons to consider the assassination of JFK was a conspiracy and that the coverup of that conspiracy was, and is, a conspiracy. With the assassinations of MLK and RFK that conspiracy has grown, morphed and split into many forms, or rooms of smoke and mirrors. The important point re JFK is that of conspiracy. That's where the WC failed and as per the Katzenbach memo, the public is not satisfied. :

["... 1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial. ..."] http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62268#relPageId=29

and therefore, as per the second page, last paragraph, "further Congressional hearing"s is needed. This time of the right sort, using all the evidence and speculations gathered since.

[Jon G. Tidd]

John Dolva,

You write about your uncertainty re the facts of the JFK case.

IMO, one must observe that uncertainty. And ask, why does it exist?

[John Dolva]

In discussing the proposed landing in Anzio one general [CoS, Wa.] said : "In America we don't solve our problems, we overwhelm them!". [ANZIO by Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, 1961, p18]

IOW, IMO, (short answer) the WC (volumes) is a symptom, not a solution.

[David Josephs]

Did the plotters identify Oswald as the patsy in advance of the assassination?

I have to believe so, but that belief raises many questions. For example, how did the plotters in March 1963 know to fabricate the order of an M-C rifle to A. Hidell? The answer, I know, is -- they didn't. The fabrication was done by the FBI with the help of Klein's post assassination.

All right. Oswald didn't order the rifle. The FBI, with the help of Klein's, produces documents saying he did. That's cover-up, not set-up.

So wait a minute. Oswald is being framed post-assassination.

So why?

You now need to answer a question Jon....

Why can you not allow for duplicitous activity prior to the assassination which the "planners" could use as needed should the occasion arrise. I refer back to Vallee. If this was a true patsy set-up for the attempt that was thwarted I am sure we would have learned about activities that MAY have been innocent at the time but under this new POV of assassination, their innocence comes into question.

Oswald is basically placed at the TSBD

JFK is basically placed in front of the TSBD... the killed brought to the accused. and the same set-up is seen in Chicago... JFK passes right by Vallee on his way.

I truly do not believe that his activities since coming back from Russia were all leading to the killing of JFK... possible but unlikely.

Was Oswald TOLD to flaunt his Marxism (which was "commie" to the masses) to create the association for JFK, or for FPCC infultration... why not both?

That he was set-up ahead of time is not hard to see. That the real killers actions were covered up by the investigation with Oswald as the focus is a given.

How are we to tell an advance activity as set-up versus not until it is used against him? He was being set-up as a commie with co-conspirators possibly connected to Castro (specifically so by the CIA asset Alvarado), not a Lone Nut

Who he really was and what really happened was completely covered up using a mixture of pre-assassination duplicitous activities and post assassination cover-up.

Why again is the distinction so important?

You tell us you know your CI. Are you saying that creating mutiple reasons for the same "set-up" activity is not to CI's advantage or not CI SOP?... to SPIN things one way or another and still offer the shadow of truth.

To answer the thread's question, again. Yes, there was a Set-Up distinct from the Cover-up since the cover-up had to also include undoing the "Castro-commie" set-up in favor of the "Lone Nut" conclusion... Mexico City is a perfect example. To the CIA and State Dept he had traveled with others by car. To the FBI and I&NS he had come and gone by bus, alone.

Set-up v Cover-up. Doesn't get much simplier than that.

[Paul Trejo]

Did the plotters identify Oswald as the patsy in advance of the assassination?

I have to believe so, but that belief raises many questions. For example, how did the plotters in March 1963 know to fabricate the order of an M-C rifle to A. Hidell? The answer, I know, is -- they didn't. The fabrication was done by the FBI with the help of Klein's post assassination.

All right. Oswald didn't order the rifle. The FBI, with the help of Klein's, produces documents saying he did. That's cover-up, not set-up.

So wait a minute. Oswald is being framed post-assassination.

So why?

Well, Jon, I'm currently considering two answers to this question.

(1) Based on Jim Garrison and Harry Dean, I consider that Lee Harvey Oswald was set-up to be a JFK murder Patsy for much of 1963, starting perhaps as early as the very week that OSWALD (allegedly) tried to kill notorious racist, Edwin WALKER, and that WALKER, in revenge, was the leader of an Interstate plot among rightists to kill JFK. As a former US General, WALKER got lots and lots of free assistance, coast to coast.

(2) Based on doubts expressed by Larry Hancock and Bill Simpich, I consider that everything that Jim Garrison uncovered (as reported in Oliver Stone's 1992 movie, JFK) was really nothing but a plot to kill Fidel Castro. From this skeptical viewpoint, I regard Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, and even the CIA as totally innocent of a plot to kill JFK, but only appeared to be guilty, because of their infinite lies about their plot to kill Fidel Castro.

In the latter scenario, OSWALD would not have been selected as the "Patsy" until mid-September at the earliest -- but perhaps not even then.

Rather, it might turn out that OSWALD was selected as the Patsy at the last minute, from a large cache of possible Patsies.

If so, then one might also regard Divine Providence in the JFK murder, because once the Assassination Site (Dealey Plaza) was selected for its unique properties, the accidental happenstance of Lee Harvey Oswald working at the TSBD miraculously appeared.

Gerry Patrick Hemming, an associate of WALKER, along with Loran Hall and Larry Howard, actually confessed to A.J. Weberman of his role in the JFK murder, when he said (and I accept as literal) that he personally called OSWALD from Miami, and offered OSWALD double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano if he brought it to the TSBD in the morning.

If we believe Hemming, then there is the JFK murder plot right there. It could have taken shape as little as ONE SINGLE DAY before the actual murder. Everything else would fall into place.

As for the Cover-up that followed -- I continue to challenge perhaps EVERYBODY on this Forum with my theory that the Cover-up had NOTHING to do with the JFK murder, but was invented by J. Edgar Hoover for the express purpose of National Security, on 11/22/1963 at about 3pm CST.

We must try to remember that Earl Warren lied to us, but he told the Truth about lying to us. Warren told us explicitly that the REAL TRUTH about OSWALD was a matter of Top Secret National Security, that could only be released in 75 years.

This was not a confession of complicity with the JFK murder, but perhaps most JFK "Researchers" believe that it was.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 29, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul and DJ,

I believe the assassination was carried out by high-level plotters who formed the basic plot far before 11-22-63.

I believe there were models for the assassination. Created by individuals who knew about assassinations.

The task: assassinate a president in an open-top vehicle. Without injuring his wife.

Dallas proved perfect. A kill, a patsy.

This sort of thinking assumes JFK appears as a perfect target in a perfect setting.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul and DJ,

I believe the assassination was carried out by high-level plotters who formed the basic plot far before 11-22-63.

I believe there were models for the assassination. Created by individuals who knew about assassinations.

The task: assassinate a president in an open-top vehicle. Without injuring his wife.

Dallas proved perfect. A kill, a patsy.

This sort of thinking assumes JFK appears as a perfect target in a perfect setting.

But what are your implications, Jon?

I seem to glean from your high-level abstractions that the Conspirators had to be highly trained for this sort of thing -- and that would suggest Military and Paramilitary personnel.

Yet that is very chaotic. We have Military and Paramilitary personnel spanning multiple political spectrums. In 1963 we had the Minutemen, for example, terrified of the threat of Communists pouring northward from Mexico and Latin America, waving Cuban flags and carrying posters of Fidel Castro and Che Guevara.

The Minutemen had read Che Guevara's book, Guerrilla Warfare, and imitated it with their own book.

The Minutemen organized a National movement of small cadres of citizen militia, training in the woods twice a month (or more if they could) under well-trained Military and Paramilitary leaders (often they were retired officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines).

They were all fiercely Anti-Communist, and so they tended to attract extremists. A leader among them like Ex-General Edwin Walker, with 30 years of Military experience, starting with Military School, then West Point, then World War Two, then Korea, then Taiwan -- this guy was special ops before there was special ops.

WALKER just quit the Army -- in a huff -- he even forfeited his Army pension after 30 years -- he was outraged by what he saw was Communism -- not only in the White House, but even inside the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Even the Pentagon was too "Communist" for Ex-General Edwin WALKER.

Imagine what sort of clout this guy had among the Minutemen.

This is why ATF Agent Frank Ellsworth reported to the WC that his prime suspects for the JFK murder would be Edwin WALKER and the Minutemen there in Texas -- based on empirical evidence he had gathered.

But wait -- that would contradict the "Lone Nut" theory. So of course the WC stomped all over this report by Ellsworth.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...Focus your thinking on why JFK was killed. That is the central question.

Do you believe it was because he was soft on communism?

...Why, in your opinion, was JFK killed?

In my view, JFK had many enemies, but none was more rabid than the Far Right, and especially in Dallas, Texas -- the wealthiest bastion of the Old South.

In Dallas we had not only political opponents, but also Paramilitary forces, lined up under the infamous renegade, Ex-General Edwin Walker.

In 1962-1963, the great enmity of WALKER for JFK was well-known in every newspaper in the land.

The only reason that WALKER wasn't suspected for the JFK assassination was because J. Edgar Hoover immediately and forcefully insisted that Lee Harvey OSWALD was the "Lone Nut" shooter of JFK. The FBI enforced this doctrine as energetically as they could.

After 1964, nobody even REMEMBERED Edwin WALKER.

Why was JFK killed? Because he had become a mortal enemy of Ex-General Edwin WALKER -- a military mind of the first order, with a very large and powerful Paramilitary organization called "The Minutemen" at his beck and call.

Another "Minutemen" officer, but in New Orleans, was Guy Banister. Banister's obsession was to assassinate Fidel Castro -- however, it surely seemed to Guy Banister that JFK was making it harder and harder to kill Castro.

IMHO, Guy Banister assisted his Paramilitary comrade, Edwin WALKER, in the effort to assassinate JFK in Dallas, and also to simultaneously exact revenge upon Lee Harvey OSWALD for his assassination attempt on WALKER on 10 April 1963.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 7, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul Trejo,

You believe JFK was killed by right-wing nuts.

What if he was killed by persons who understood rightwing nuts?

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

You believe JFK was killed by right-wing nuts.

What if he was killed by persons who understood rightwing nuts?

Well, Jon, it's not impossible -- yet paradoxically, I'm skeptical of most Conspiracy Theories.

The trouble with CT's is that they proliferate without limits. Any combination of CT's can be fascinating.

So, I think we want to avoid the superfluous, or adding gilding to a lily. Once we have a workable theory -- then we should try to prove or disprove that.

For example, take the Simpich Mole Hunt (2014). It seems self-evident to me that: (I) some CIA rogues Impersonated Oswald to try to link the name of OSWALD to that of Kostikov; (ii) the CIA high-command was alarmed by this; and (iii) CIA high-command started a very rare Mole-Hunt inside the CIA to find out who did this.

Yet some CT people have exclaimed, "Maybe they started a Mole Hunt to throw everybody off." That is, IMHO, superfluous. First, nobody but the CIA high-command even knew about Mole Hunts. Were the CIA high-command trying to throw themselves off? Ridiculous.

So, back to the question of the Extreme Right-wing. Before coming up with an alternative theory, we should first prove that such a Right-wing theory has little merit.

But nobody has done that, yet. The typical response to a Right-wing plot against JFK is to change the topic.

Further, I wish to emphasize that I'm only speaking of the Right-wing in the USA in the early 1960's, who rise out of the Right-wing movements of the 1950's. This is very specific. Also, it has a different character in the South than in the North. It is very specific.

Furthermore, I don't pluck Ex-General Edwin WALKER out of the air -- although it may seem so, since almost nobody else is talking about WALKER. I remind everybody early and often that WALKER is named more than 500 times in the WC volumes.

In the first two volumes alone -- it seems that nearly every witness is grilled about WALKER. It's remarkable to observe.

We haven't discussed the Right-wing plot much at all -- so why change the topic so soon?

That said, Jon, of course it remains possible that somebody would try to frame the Rightwing for the JFK murder. So I am willing to consider any evidence that somebody has for this. Evidence -- but not another evasion.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 8, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Lifton]

It's not just that Edward Lansdale was at Dealey Plaza that day, but I've seen some photographs which suggest to me that Jesus Angleton was also there, as well as George Joannides, as well as Anne Goodpasture. If so -- WHAT WERE THEY DOING THERE?

The operation was paramilitary. I count at least 7 shots. The shooters had spotters who were also radio men, and they used walkie talkies as well as an umbrella signal to coordinate shooting.

<edit typos>

I'd like to see these additional photo IDs in Dealey.

Well, David, here's one that I think is James Jesus Angelton. What do you think?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul:

I just saw your post. FWIW: I don't think that looks like Angleton--at all. Of course, I would like to know who it is; in the spirit that I'd like a complete identification of all the images in all the photographs. I wish someone had organized a project to identify all the bystanders in all the principal photos.

DSL

5/8/15 - 4:20 a.m. PDT

Los Angeles, CA