Bill Miller

6 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Beliefs..........

My belief based on the evidence as I see it. Maybe who ever over contrasted the shadow in the image with the red outline around what they me wish to be a person may see it differently.  

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

By golly, I do believe that's Lovelady rising up on the steps below Prayer Person.

Maybe.

--  Tommy

I don't see anyone rising up. You certainly are not talking about this person standing on the steps - are you?

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Meanwhile:

What does "meanwhile" mean???

Does it mean that if one doesn't darken the shadows inside the red circled area and show the frames leading up to that image that its pretty clear no one is there - then I agree. But then you did darken that area in this particular film frame capture - so what was your purpose in doing that?

The woman in the light colored coat is casting her shadow on the steps. In the initial frames ... the sun shining on both sides of her shadow can be seen on the vertical sides of the stairs. With each frame that she rises up the stairs in - her shadow continually morphs to the point that it takes the shape seen in the red circle in the over contrasted quoted image.

45 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Lovelady did not look back.

There is no evidence for that Bill, he lied during his WC testimony, just like the so called Victoria Adams encounter.

I do not believe Lovelady lied about looking back and seeing Truly about to enter the building.

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Shelley and Lovelady both testified that they didn't leave the steps for about 3 minutes after the shooting. Therefore that indeed could be Lovelady that we see on the steps.

 Around three minutes was the total time they made their trip to the Island - then to the RR Yard - and then back to the TSBD .  And the last I recalled - a man cannot be in two places at the same time and as far as I am concerned ... both Shelley and Lovelady are walking away from the stairs in Darnell's film as Patrolman Baker is running across the Elm Street extension.

Furthermore, Shelley and Lovelady are not seen on the steps in Darnell's film and I don't  believe for a single minute that after hearing shots that Billy Lovelady decided to sit down on the steps so women could step over him as they made their way up the stairs. That notion doesn't even pass the laugh test in my view. I also think the idea that Truly and Baker waited around the steps for three minutes before entering the TSBD is preposterous. The whole idea for Baker was get up to the roof before any shooters got away. So in my view the camera rules over a misstatement.

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

BTW, what does someone's "lower leg or sunlight" have to do with the putative Lovelady figure?

--  Tommy

The entire page 48 was about someone thinking there was a lady on the steps ahead of the light coated woman .... didn't look at page 47 to see if the same happened there. Regardless it didn't seem to bother you when Alistair and Sandy and others discussed it, so it really shouldn't now when I posted an enlarged version (not to ID people) in order to explain what some thought to be a leg of a woman turned sideways was no one at all. The shadows shifting as people moved up the stairs is what gave the false appearance of someone  being there.

Below is a smaller version so you can ID people if you like - have at it. However - Lovelady is not on the steps because if he was, then he could not have walked 15 to 25 steps before looking back and seeing Truly or the Patrolman Baker about to enter the building. Hope the images are much clearer to you now.

20 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Thanks, Alistair.

By golly, I do believe that's Lovelady rising up on the steps below Prayer Person.

Maybe.

--  Tommy

The lower leg thought to belong to a woman is sunlight shining off the vertical side of the  step which formed as shadows.

18 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

If someone who has a gif animator would pull the first two or three frames from the gif and run them at 1.5sec intervals, then I am positive everyone will see that what they thought was the shape of a woman was in fact a shadow cast on the steps.

The alleged lower leg is momentary sunlight shining on the vertical side of the steps between two shadows.

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I asked you because in none of your previous posts on  Oswald clothing, which you have slipped here and there after my post specifying details of Marina's testimony and providing links to Commission Exhibits, did you actually provide any details about the alleged witness reporting that Oswald wore black pants on the day. You wrote it this way:

"One witness when asked about the color clothing Lee had worn on the day of the shooting had said that Oswald wore dark/black' pants. Prayer Man seems to have a similar tone to his lower body as he does his upper body. "

Not only that you have not provided sufficient details about the alleged witness and source of your information in your previous posts, you fail to do it even now after being asked. You can question Warren Commission testimonies one by one like many other researchers. However, Marina had seen Lee before he left for work after he had his coffee and came back to their bedroom (details in Priscilla Johnson-McMillan's book: Marina & Lee). Therefore, she knew what shirt and pants he had worn on Friday morning. Are you questioning her testimony on this point? 

I am still waiting for your explanation about how can a photogammetry be done with only one view angle picture. You not only have advocated it to the community but also challenged those who support Prayer Man=Oswald hypothesis to deliver. Please explain. 

I believe I posted somewhere the witness's statement. Probably shouldn't jump threads.     I have sent a message to Roberdeau because I think it was he who gave me the witness's name to begin with. I will post it when I find it.

58 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

any details about your witness and his/her testimony?

Do a search in the thread for 'black' or 'black pants' for i posted it a couple of times a while back

1 minute ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Oswald's shirt and slacks on Friday morning were compatible with the cloths worn by Prayer Man. The composite figure shows the shirt and slacks which chosen by Marina Oswald during her testimony for the Warren Commission. I have mounted the shirt over the slacks as this would explain the lack of form of Prayer Man lower body. Please note the loose slacks which are torn in the seam. Marina asked why are the slacks torn but received only promise to learn. Mary Bledsoe correctly pointed to a tear on the slacks but also on the right elbow. I wonder why she was the only person remembering such detail. Would Oswald go to work in this bad shape?

 

So are we to ignore the witness who said Lee was wearing dark or black pants at work on the day of the assassination?

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

... personally, that is to say, I don't think that if the 'girth' is all Prayer Man's that it any way excludes it being Oswald.

I guess it is possible that Lee ate a 30lb lunch.  

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If that really is person standing there, then I'm pretty sure she must be moving up the steps. Because the woman in all white would otherwise be bumping into her IMO.

And yet, I see no sign of movement above the woman in all white. None.

If someone who has a gif animator would pull the first two or three frames from the gif and run them at 1.5sec intervals, then I am positive everyone will see that what they thought was the shape of a woman was in fact a shadow cast on the steps.

If someone can slow the animation down - I think what is said to be a leg is sunlight shining between the shadows being cast by the woman moving upo the stairs. The first two or so frames is the key here in my view.

8 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

To me it looks as if the person with the foot is standing sideways (facing towards the left as we see it). With that in mind I knocked up the following to help explain what I am seeing. I still can't spot her head though!

If she was facing sideways then I feel that at least part of her face would be visible (as she has to be standing in an are that the sun would be hitting). The only thing I can think of just now then is that even though she is standing sideways her head is turned more to the back and he black hair is lost amongst the darkness of Prayer Man's torso.

Alternatively - there is NO woman there and the 'foot' isn't a foot, it's the sun hitting the steps. Have a look at the gif posted above and watch the 'woman in white' climb the stairs and watch the 'shadow' on the steps....

Alistair,

The animation shows the woman in the light colored coat below this person as moving up the stairs. I think your outline is of that woman's right side as she too was moving up the stairs.

22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Raise your arms up the way PM's clearly are and see if your elbows remain up close to your body. (Do so naturally without trying to force your elbows to remain close to your body.)

Now tell me whose claim was the self-serving one.

I did and they do. My arms stayed right against my body. None of which is meaningful. What is meaningful is the way Prayer-Man is turned slightly to one side. Do you agree that if he turned so to be square on  with the camera, then would not his girth widen even more? 

And by the way - isn't the man next to Frazier supposed to be Molina??

42 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

A fairly comparable comparison with Prayer Man (in terms of perspective) is the guy standing to our right of Frazier, wearing light colored clothing.

On him Bill's white line just extends to the corners of his shoulders. Not so on PM. The left end of the line (our left) reaches out the the PM's elbow. And PM's elbow is extended away from his body.

The white line on Prayer-Man was meant to be placed on the outer edge of the right arm to the outer edge of the left arm.  Prayer-Man is not square with the camera, thus he or she is even wider than seen in this image.

The image is so poor that some cannot even tell if Prayer-Man is a man or a woman, so to say that someone can tell that his or her elbow is extended away from the body is merely a self-serving wild guess in my view..

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

I don't know if this has been addressed before, but on that video Bill provided, from the 5:17 mark to 5:30, that sure looks like Oswald to me.

 

Steve Thomas

Often times a clip is clearer if seen at regular speed instead of inching it along .... can someone show the alleged images of the Oswald looking fellow at their normal speed (possibly looped) ?  I question whether the man is wearing a high shirt collared shirt and suit jacket.

19 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

I am afraid that your lines are completely wrong. You are comparing the man on the pavement with Prayer Man (and one lady). I can see that the line on the man in the front does not really span from the tip of one shoulder to another. The man had a suit which makes his shoulders to look wider. Prayer Man is orientated differently than the man on the pavement. It is a 3D problem, and it also includes the factor of perspective (more distant objects looking smaller than close objects of the same size). It is difficult to determine the width of Prayer Man's shoulders on this picture.

That was the whole purpose of this exercise. People closer to the camera should not have the same length line be so close to reaching from side to side on their person. Even if Prayer-Man was facing the camera, then he would be wider in the camera's eye than he or she is when turned at an angle away from the camera. Yet people are are closer to the camera have the same line on their person as Prayer-Man does and yet he being turned at an angle is still as wide as people who are closer to the camera.

Of course this is not perfect, nor was it claimed to be. What it does however is point out some obvious flaws in Prayer-Man being Lee Oswald and is exactly why I recommended a personal skilled in Photogammetry examine this person to get a more precise measurement of this person's girth.

In case you did not notice - the line across Prayer-Man is not running from shoulder to shoulder and is why I placed the same line on the other people in similar fashion with the exception of the man on the other side of Frazier - that man turned directly towards the camera has his line across the shoulders.

Again, it is not my responsibility to be sure the claim that Prayer-Man may be Oswald - that obligation lies with those making the claim they could be one in the same person. I said that this matter should be looked at my someone skilled in Photogammetry so to insure the highest level of accuracy possible. If accuracy is not important, then disregard my recommendation.

22 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents.

What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald.

Hi Ron!  Your observation and others (right or wrong) certainly draws attention to how poor the image is for those wanting to know if it is Oswald or not. I do think however that this individual is too broad to be Lee. In this image he or she appears to be turned at a slight angle away from the camera which doesn't offer the total girth of this person. But even if we take the visible girth as it is and compare it to people who are far closer to the camera ... one can get a feel if the slim Lee Oswald should be as wide as this person labeled Prayer-Man seems to be.

I have taken several lines of equal width and have placed them on other people. I would suggest that anyone truly interested in knowing if this person could be Lee Oswald ... that they have someone skilled in Photogammetry determine the girth of this person. Of course that obligation should lay with those going to all  the trouble to have it be Lee. It just seems wrong to me that Prayer-Man when seen at a angle away from the camera should still be as wide as the man on the other side of Frazier who is seen from a straight on view.

5 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

 

I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents.

What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald.

 

I agree that the girth of the person doesn't fit Oswald in my view. Too broad of shoulders. Lee was rather thin.

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here is what they changed in their testimonies, assuming that they are the guys we see in the videos:

1. They met Gloria Calvery at the steps (or very near there). Not after they had walked far down the extension, as the video shows.

This point was made by both men when talking about the sequence of events.

      2. They left the steps (or very near there) after encountering Calvery. Not before, as the video shows.

I suspect they saw Calvery coming from the shooting and crying - so they proceeded to leave the steps and walk towards her.

      3. Once leaving the steps, the first thing they did was cross the extension to the concrete island, right where the traffic light is and where it splits Elm Street from Elm Street extension. But in the film they appear to cross the street toward the park (not the concrete island with a street light) after walking down the extension a ways.

Shelley was asked if they went straight across the street and he replied that they want a little bit to the right.

When looking at an image that isn't a skew - the tree where Shelley and Lovelady entered the Island isn't much of a walk down the street. It is the movie film that gives the impression that these men covered a much larger distance.

 

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Running Woman, a.k.a. Gloria Calvery passes by the two on Elm extension. They don't really stop and talk. (According to what we see on the stabilized film.) But she could have told them as they pass by that the president had been shot. She was walking, not running, as they passed by each other.

Have you ever been on the extension in front of the stairs?   Someone can be coming towards you crying and saying the President was shot and just as they are almost up to you there is time to ask if they are sure ... to which they immediately respond they saw the blood.

Lovelady

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot. (This statement could support the film)

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.  (That response is supported by the film)

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. (Started for the Island after meeting Calvery) We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.   (That response is supported by the film)

Shelley

Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.  (Again this fits with the Darnell Film because when the running woman moves on after a slight pause when passing Shelley and Lovelady ... the two men do appear to move towards the Island.)
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.  (From the Island the two men looked back and saw Truly and Baker)
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

So when Shelley and Lovelady testified before the WC, they tell two lies. 1) That they waited for Calvery before they left the steps; and 2) they met Calvery at the steps. The two lies go hand-in-hand.

Point:  Which is the lie - meeting Calvery and moving to the Island within 15 to 25 steps in time to look back and see Truly and Baker about to enter the building before going to the RR Yard ................... or is the lie when it was said they had left the Island and gone to the RR Yard before taking their sweet time heading back to go into the TSBD to then see Calvery, and then witness Truly and Baker enter the front of the TSBD???

I say they got confused on the 3 - 4 minute timing for several times they said they met Calvery before going to the Island - and saw Truly and Baker before leaving the Island to head to the RR Yard.

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

How soon after the final shot do you think they met Calvary?  20 seconds? 30?  45?  Two minutes?

--  Tommy

I have said repeatedly that I believe the running woman is Calvery ....  thus how long that was after the final shot is a moot point.

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

"Minor" ???  (but, strangely, exactly the same for Shelley and Lovelady).

You call three minutes versus 30 seconds max "minor"?  If, in all the "confusion and excitement" of the moment, one of them was so grossly off on the timing, how then do we explain the fact that both of them were "confused" to the exact same degree, except to posit that they colluded on the answers, or were told what to say?

LOL

--  Tommy

 

 

That is exactly what I have said with the exception that I also mentioned these men both said they met Calvery before making it to the Island. The mix up came when they spoke of their total time touring the Plaza after the shots were fired. Part of that I blame for the interviewer jumping all over the place with his questions. Regardless - both witnesses gave the order of events (2x I believe) before the latter 3 to 4 minute remark was made.