Bill Miller

On 2/5/2017 at 10:19 PM, John Butler said:

 The consensus appeared to be that the images of the key players (JFK, John Connally, Jackie, Clint Hill & his fellow agents, etc. present in Altgens 6 could have been lifted from other images taken at different locations & incorporated into what is known as Altgens photo 6.
 

Lifted from other locations and incorporated into Altgens 6?  Why??  Those agents are seen in several movie films and in at least three still photos taken inside of Dealey Plaza.

On 2/16/2017 at 11:55 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

That morphing is largely due to motion blur, IMO. That is to say, motion captured on film during the time the shutter is open. Like this:

The only heads I see turning are Lovelady's and Frazier's... the latter to a lesser extent.
 

Your illustration is far more extreme - subjects filmed at high speed and different shutter speeds.

On 2/16/2017 at 11:41 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

So you believe that Lovelady left the steps in that 30-second interval between Weigman and Darnell, and was replaced by yet another person who resembles Lovelady, Oswald, and the guy on the sixth floor wearing a white tee shirt.

That's a lot of Oswald-lookalikes. But what I have a hard time believing is that another guy with a receding hairline just happened to walk onto the steps just as Lovelady left. Within that 30 second window. That's a very unlikely thing to happen IMO.

I believe the film evidence, Lovelady and Shelley's statements, and other eye witnesses support that this was the case. Lovelady said he had walked just about 25 steps when he hear a noise and looked back to see Truly and Patrolman Baker starting to g through the entrance of the building. I know there was a couple of workers who were inside the building who saw Truly and Patrolman Baker being the first people to enter the building.

As far as look-a-likes go .... when dealing with such poor images such as the one's you are talking about - a lot of people will look alike of you want them to.

On 2/9/2017 at 9:13 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Steve,

After you posted this I watched that clip thirty times, to see what you're seeing.

It doesn't look close enough to LHO to me.   The forehead isn't high enough, and the nose isn't long enough, IMHO.  He is the right height, the right weight, and has receding hair on his left forehead -- so that made me look closer and closer.   But there are too many German and Irish guys who match that description -- it could be anybody.

The forehead and nose are a mismatch, IMHO.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 Interesting that Buell Frazier said in his "History Matters" interview that he didn't see Lee Oswald outside until Oswald was crossing east over Houston and then south to cross Elm Street before losing track of him in the crowd when Buell turned away momentarily. I believe he speculated that Oswald left by the rear of the building.

12 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Keep dreaming and speculating Bill.

Are you suggesting that I dreamed there were people already in the building who saw the first people entering the doorway as being Truly and a Policeman?

I would also like to be quoted as I do not recall saying the figure being claimed to be Lovelady did not move up a step - I do recall saying I so not believe this person was rising up from a sitting position

It is my opinion that the image is to degraded so to ID this person in my opinion. The blurring effect even hinders making a measurement of this woman's person against the people standing on the sidewalk for the same reason for some frames make it look as though the woman may have lowered her position slightly.

.And lastly - where is Bill Shelley and how does the look back from on the steps to see Truly and Patrolman Baker about to enter the doorway from the other side of the extension some 25 steps away from the stairs then play out?

11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

How far would they end up in 20-30 secs?

Far enough to help the shooters fold up their gear and escort them to safety

And to look back and see Truly and Officer Baker moving and about to  enter the door of the TSBD.

Zapruder filmed at 18 frames per second (shutter opens and closes with each frame) and had both motion blur and panning blur within his images.

Moorman took her photo in reaction to the head shot and with the car barely moving. The car is determined moving because the emblem in the middle of the hub caps are blurred from being in motion/turning at a much faster rate than the car is moving forward.

17 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Sure seems like Lovelady

There is a number or people this person could be. Just the other day someone wondered if a guy that was standing in front of the building seen briefly in one of the films could have been Oswald .... someone could just as easy say it is that guy from the film.

On 2/11/2017 at 4:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I also found in the film frames where the guy turns his head to his right. I put one of those frames in an animated GIF so that it can be easily seen that he's turning his head:

I cannot say the man is turning his head.  This person's head and shoulders seem to morph and get taller on the Dal-Tex side of him. At the same time the woman's head in the light colored scarf seems to  morph the same way. The lady in the dark head scarf seems to have her head morph as well. So my point is that it is not for certain that these head movements are not what you believe them to be.

On 2/15/2017 at 7:05 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Here is a clip made by Robin Unger. On this one you can actually make out Lovelady's eyes and other features.

 

Sandy,

I can appreciate you wanting that person to be Lovelady, but when you make comments about how this clip allows you to make out Billy L's eyes and other features, then you do a disservice to yourself because what you are saying this clip offers in details is just not there. That person can be wearing a sport coat for all anyone can see. 

You may recall that I didn't buy Kamp's view at first that Lovelady was walking on the Elm Street extension. But better images offered a view of the plaid design of the shirt Lovelady had been wearing. The man he was walking with had the same wavy hair immediately above the forehead that Shelley had. Buell Frazier has said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps together which also supports Kamp's claim of the Darnell film showing those two men on the Elm Street extension when Patrolman Baker made his run to the TSBD. The person you believe that looks close enough to be Lovelady doesn't seem to be with Shelley, unlike the Lovelady looking fellow seen walking on the extension street.

I do however understand why you would think it could be Lovelady. It's just that the fuzzy image alone isn't worth much in my view.

23 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

As per where Prayer Man stood, you can check my earlier analysis: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/  . This article tests only two options (Prayer Man 5'2'' on the top landing and Prayer Man 5'9'' standing in the very front of the top landing with one leg on the step below) and using a low-resolution manikin whose pose could not be adjusted too well, However, the article lists all the useful markers which define Prayer Man's height and location. I work on a more advanced version using a much better manikin which I have elaborated in Poser 11. The new manikin allows the arms, head position and similar to be modeled very accurately.

The best way to have done this in real world fashion would have been to have gone to the Plaza and by using Darnell's line of sight - another person could have stood approximately where Prayer-Man is and posed in a number of ways for comparisons. Some of us have used to solve several issues in the Plaza this way. In fact, the area where Prayer man is standing is so small that the margin or error is minimized. Find two reference points and use someone Lee's build and height and have them turn much like Prayer-Man is seen. If the difference is great, then Prayer-Man being Oswald is a problem.

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Bill, for your explanation. The software packages mentioned at Wikipedia from which you seem to quote look very complicated and actually require multiple photographs.

"Photogrammetric analysis may be applied to  one photograph"

I have been on  forums where it was applied to a single film frame .... and the same when National Geographic did a similar examination.

From my understanding - it is 3D model creations that require multiple views.

Quote

They also say in the same

Are you sure that photagammetry would work with this low-resolution picture in which it is difficult to recognise details of the body? 

Hasn't seemed to stop supporters of Oswald being Prayer-Man when looking at the same image. But yes, I believe when it comes to girth that a measurement can be obtained within a small degree of error.   I will however suggest that these questions be given to someone who is actually skilled in Photogammetry.  

Quote

It would be your big contribution to the Prayer Man topic if you could employ photogammetry to Prayer Man's figure. As you know, I work on 3D reconstructions using different approach and cannot embark on another project. We can then compare our findings obtained using photogammetry and 3D modelling.  Maybe you would you be able to contact the person familiar with photogammetry to ask about his/her view about the possibility to reconstruct Prayer Man from Darnell's still. In my experience, one cannot get more information from an analysis than that which the input data potentially contains. If we do not see e.g. the Prayer Man's left shoulder, how can we reconstruct his chest as a volume. However, I may be wrong and it may be all possible to do...

I could ask, but someone needs to get the measurements needed to do the job. Width of the doors - the extension - the stairs - the vertical step surfaces - the height of the doorway and so forth. Dale Myers may already have those figures. I can only say you should seek the answers to this person's girth before doing other work on the matter so not to waste more time that you may already have.

My schedule is not free to for me to do the work to run down measurements. The 6th floor Museum may have the figures for the building.

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

as your style is, you again slip photogammetry as a tool to reconstruct and maybe measure Prayer Man's body or at least torso. However, to do photogammetry, one needs to have an object to be photographed from at least two quite different angles. The more angles the better the result. Would you please explain, since you propose it repeatedly, how can photogammetry be done with having Prayer Man photographed (although one can say repeatedly) from one and the same view angle? Or will you evade again as if nothing happened?

"Photogrammetry is the science of making measurements from photographs, especially for recovering the exact positions of surface points. It may also be used to recover the motion pathways of designated reference points on any moving object, on its components, and in the immediately adjacent environment. Photogrammetric analysis may be applied to one photograph, or may use high-speed photography and remote sensing to detect, measure and record complex 2-D and 3-D motion fields ......"

My understanding is that if one knows the camera lens type and size, along with known measurements within the photograph .... distances and sizes of other objects in that photograph can also be determined. I know of one person who is experienced in Photogammetry and I have seen it applied to still 2D images. If I am wrong, then it should be easy for you to merely speak to someone skilled in that field to see if you are correct.

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

They obviously don't see the same girth that you guys do. Otherwise they wouldn't be thinking PM could be Oswald. (I don't see the girth that you guys see either. I can't tell where PMs' shirt ends and the west wall begins.

To start with - I don't think any girth was ever considered previous to now .... there certainly do not seem to have been any body size ratio comparisons made to that of Lee Harvey Oswald.  Also, if I had a lot of work involved in trying to make a case for Oswald being Prayer-Man, then I too would not be so quick to accept the girth observation.  The thing now is the girth has been raised and sooner or later someone skilled in Photogammetry will answer that question, thus leaving little wiggle room one way or the other on this issue.

On 2/12/2017 at 6:48 AM, Ron Ecker said:

 

Well I can't get over how fat "Oswald" looks here. And that can't be a loose work shirt as has been suggested. No loose shirt would look that wide on Oswald. A loose shirt is not much wider than the person wearing it. And what kind of shirt goes down to the knees if not the ankles?

And the figure is wide even when turned at an angle to the camera. Even wider if he turns straight on with the camera. While a fuzzy image can be said to look like it could have been Oswald - the girth causes him  not to be Oswald in my view.

It will be interesting watching how those who have so much invested in Oswald being Prayer-Man will handle this revelation. They either got to fatten the real Oswald up or slim Prayer-Man down. 

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

(As we look at the image...)

Left hand side: Frame from Hughes film
Right hand side: Frame from Weigman film

 

I believe if someone found a good full frame view and considered the line of sight that Lovelady is being viewed - they would find that Lovelady was standing near the handrail and was still on the west (knoll) side of it. 

There is a shade line that crosses the landing where Frazier is standing. Note his torso is sunlit while his head is not.

43 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

That is correct Alistair. That is where we seem him in latter footage of the stairs and  entrance to the TSBD.

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Ah I get it, that black bushy hair is a figment of my imagination then, that bushy blob you cannot even ignore in your butchered versions.

Exactly ... the shadow being cast from the woman in the white coat can be seen morphing as she climbs the stairs. Her shadow can be seen in the two frames below along with the landing'.

In my world it is impossible to see through real people. I guess in your world all is needed is to wait for the right frame to come along where the shadows being cast morph together and then bump up the contrast  so to make them look like a portion of someone figure.

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

 

That is not Lovelady in the image you previously posted. Lovelady as clearly seen in the Hughes film and in Altgens photo shows him on the west side of the stairs - down and to the right of Frazier. (see below)

I found this interesting when Frazier was asked if he went anywhere after hearing the shots being fired .... and Buell mentioned that a Police Officer could have came past him and he not seen it because of the way he was turned and with he talking to someone. Have wonder if that someone  was the Prayer-Man. And while Frazier said he stayed there for several minutes - he mentioned Shelley and Lovelady leaving the stairs .................

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Later Mr. Ball asked a question that you touched on in your previous response.

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

We know where Lovelady was standing during the parade before JFK turned onto Elm Street and during the shooting as Billy is seen in the Hughes film and in Altgen's photo by the west wall.

10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear William,

Yes, I most certainly am.

In the GIF, below, I believe we get a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt on the left side, and we can make out some of his facial features, too.  

--  Tommy

At no time do I see this person rise from anything. He is standing and I never see anything about his clothing that is white.

By the way - where is Shelley???

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What's so funny about that?

I think the three minute timing estimate is wacked based on the Couch/Darnell films.

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

BS!

Shelley "didn't do anything for a minute." That just means he didn't do anything for a while.

Here is what Shelley really said about leaving the steps:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

And Lovelady testified the same.

You have Shelley saying they remained on the steps for three minutes and then the trip to the Island - the walk to the RR Yard - and the take their time description of walking back to the Depository. That makes around 6 minutes from the time they heard the shots.  What ever you say.

59 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

So that bushy hair is just a figment of my imagination then.....

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely!  You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 Around three minutes was the total time they made their trip to the Island - then to the RR Yard - and then back to the TSBD . 

Believe what you want. But for the sake of others reading this, don't confuse the "3 minutes." Shelley and Lovelady did indeed testify that they stayed at the steps for 3 minutes after the shooting. They didn't say the trip to the RR yard and back took 3 minutes.

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.

 

According to Shelley - and while I believe he was using a figure of speech ... Shelley said he and Lovelady left the stairs around a minute after the shots were fired. I don't think anyone knows the precise second when Patrolman Baker started his run, but even if it was 30+ seconds, then it still matches what Shelley said - " I didn't do anything for a minute" before he left the stairs.

Even Lovelady said when he and Shelley left the steps that they went to the Island across the street -

Lovelady:  " we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street "

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

The Darnell film matches what Shelley says and the three minutes of standing on the steps by Lovelady does not fit what Shelley said or what Kamp has demonstrated to me that Shelley and Lovelady are seen walking in the Elm Street extension.

 

Lovelady appears to still be there. Just in front of Prayer Man.

Your reliance that the blurred image of the man seen on the stairs in Darnell's film leaves a lot to be desired in my view.

 

What makes you think I'm saying Lovelady sat down on the steps? He is standing.

My apologies as it is Graves who says he see's Lovelady rising up from a sitting position. In his case the image is so bad that he cannot even tell if the person is rising or already standing.  

On 2/9/2017 at 2:10 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Thanks, Alistair.

By golly, I do believe that's Lovelady rising up on the steps below Prayer Person.

Maybe.

--  Tommy