Bill Miller

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

I think that's a good interpretation of the "Shelley" and "Lovelady" movements in Couch - Darnell.

What's troubling is that it conflicts so dramatically with the statements / testimonies they gave.

--  Tommy

" I had said early on that people in stressed situations will often lose track of time and make errors over the order of events when trying to piece them together "

For the most part - the film supports what they had said minus a couple of minor timing errors which is to be expected.

On 1/14/2017 at 4:26 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Just from quickly looking at I think I see something of an issue with the way the 'overlay' has been placed atop the 'Darnell image'. Have a look at the words 'Book Depositry' on the 'overlay' compared to on the 'Darnell image', it looks like it needs nudged up a lot more on the left hand side (as we look at it) - I could be wrong, so appreciated any input from others.

It does little good to make a line of sight comparison ... if the two overlays are not views depicting the same lines of sight.

5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The thing about his tax record that I don't quite understand is, if Oswald was being paid as an informant (by whoever) would that have been declared on his tax records? Seems to me that it wouldn't be declared - it would be kept off the records. Perhaps it would have been declared. It does make sense as to why his tax records haven't been released. Whatever the reason, I reckon it was for something that was happening before he started work at the TSBD (for example, what Paul says about being a 'part-time informant for the FBI in 1962'.

The excuse for them not being released was said to be over National Security. I could see Oswald's records being an issue when he was supposed to be wanting to give up his U.S.  Citizenship, but his earnings once back in the States would be another matter. I have never seen a reason why that period of time could not have been released if only in a closed session.

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I am one of those optimists who believes that because of this Presidential Act, that the JFK records will finally be released; including Oswald's Tax Records.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

They will be released with every line that you would want to read being all blacked out.   

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

So -- it seems to me that there would be on LHO's tax forms the fact that LHO was a part-time informant for the FBI in 1962 -- and that would have totally embarrassed the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover.  

All the facts about this should come out in October, 2017, when the JFK Records Act releases all concealed records about the JFK assassination.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Yet Jim Garrison could not get Oswald's Tax Records due to National Security

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

The evidence shows, also, that LHO taught himself Russian in 1959 by using Berlitz books and Russian newspapers while he was at the El Toro Marine base in Santa Barbara California (Delgado, Thornley, Donovan, Powers, Folsom, Donabedian).   So, LHO was unusually intelligent; and he was probably bitter that less talented people got educational privileges while despite his talents he was left to fend for himself.

I think Lee was getting paid over and above what the TSBD was giving him or else there would have been no need to not let others see his tax records. A lone nobody would have been an incentive to have made his tax records available .... for me there was more going on than what we were allowed to know.

^^

I believe that both men had been angling across the street to a point where they cut between the parked cars and onto the Island just as they testified. The lighter clothing of Lovelady and the motion blur makes it difficult to track, but everything seen here has been recorded as it happened and isn't subject to stress or confusion. I had said early on that people in stressed situations will often lose track of time and make errors over the order of events when trying to piece them together, which in this case has given birth to some really outlandish conspiracy claims about lies and deception. Let us also keep in mind that once these men sat foot on the Island that they heard someone yell which caused them to look back towards the TSBD which in turn allowed them to see Truly and Baker about to enter the doorway. This too fits the timing of what is seen in this clip despite the camera not staying on the stairs long enough to watch it happen.

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Huh?
Looks to me as though the dark-suited "Shelley" figure is the one who's crossing over Elm Street Extension towards the "island."  Not sure where the other guy is going, but maybe towards the "island," too.

--  Tommy

I recently saw a larger and longer version where it appeared that Lovelady moved towards the Island after passing the car parked on that side of the street. I wish now I would have saved it. Below is another slow-motion clip that shows Lovelady over-take Shelley before the animation was stopped. I believe Billy said they walked and then trotted which the film tends to show.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

On 2/2/2017 at 10:51 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

Baker is already running across the street by this time (what we see in this clip), so that can't be him on the far right. (Besides, Baker's helmet is white, and this person is dark on top.)

That could be Running Lady. But she seems to be moving too slowly. She's running in the other film (Couch/Darnell?). Maybe she started out slower and then sped up.

I can't find any other candidate in the other films for this person, so I think it must be Running Lady.

If so... judging by where Running Lady is in this clip and where she is in the others (Couch/Darnell?), alleged-Shelley and alleged-Lovelady should still be in view here. Those two guys moving left in the background, roughly in the middle of the frame, must be them. The two have split up now.

Oh I remember now... this is the clip where you're thinking that it might be showing Shelley walking over to the park. Well I agree that that does seem to be the Shelley character. But it's hard for me to say whether he's walking toward the park. Maybe Bill can tell.

Shelley and Lovelady start off walking from the stairs towards the running woman. Once they pass her - Lovelady over-takes Shelley and starts to trot towards the Island.

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

Once again -- and I apologize for repeating myself -- we cannot believe that "Oswald said he was on the second floor when Baker-Truly met him."   We have virtually no idea what Oswald actually said while he was in custody.

It is more likely, IMHO, that the Fritz-Holmes-Hosty-Bookhout-Sorrels TEAM claim that "Oswald said he was on the second floor," was forged from DPD affidavits from Officer Baker and Roy Truly, in an effort to make their Fake LHO dialog seem more realistic.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

It may be out of the question 53 years later, but I cannot imagine that there were not others who knew about Oswald being seen on the 2nd floor by Truly and Baker before ever leaving the TSBD that day.  It would sure put a black eye on the forged affidavits theory. My point being that Truly stuck up for Oswald when Baker had a gun on Lee, so at that point there would be no reason to be lying about what happened. So if word quickly got around to the other employees about this that afternoon, then I have no reason to think Truly or Baker lied about that meeting.

The long and the short of it is that Oswald said he was on the second floor when the police officer met him. Elsewhere Lee said he went up to the second floor to get a coke. Truly and Baker both said they met Oswald on the 2nd floor.

My understanding it the coke machine was on the second floor. It is possible that Oswald went down to the first floor with his coke after his meeting with Baker, but that would have been well after their meeting on the second floor.

There is absolutely no doubt what-so-ever in my mind that Baker and Truly told the truth about meeting Lee on the second floor.

One witness when asked about the color clothing Lee had worn on the day of the shooting had said that Oswald wore dark/black' pants. Prayer Man seems to have a similar tone to his lower body as he does his upper body. Prayer Man not being Oswald supports why Frazier didn't mention Lee being on the landing when the President was shot.

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

So, if Frazier is correct on those points then, and only then, can we say that 'Oswald taking in a lunch' is made up, that 'Oswald did not place a package on the back seat' is made up and that 'Oswald did not tell Frazier it was curtain rods' is made up.

So who is making it up? Fritz or Oswald?

Seems to me that Frtiz would be aware that is notes would be a matter of record, so any contradictions would be Oswald's. I for one believe Lee was evasive with the police because in his mind he was working for an institution higher than the DPD. That the people Lee was working for would come and straighten everything out off the record perhaps. The problem for Lee was that he may have found himself hung out to dry.

36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Interesting. Thanks for explaining.

BTW, we don't use the word "reckon" in the part of the States I live. But I recall they did in the old Westerns like Bonanza and Gunsmoke. I think they still use the word in the southern states. I use it for fun sometimes.

The word 'reckon' is used often in the south and in the midwest U.S.

18 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Anybody know where Oswald could've gotten "a cheese sandwich and an apple"* from, on the morning of the assassination?

 

* from Fritz's handwritten notes.

   I once knew an old fellow who I worked with at Caterpillar who would carry a cheese sandwich in his back pants pocket. It would remain there until time for lunch. He was a quiet fellow who kept to himself a lot. If Lee came to work with a jacket on that day .... I supposed he could have had a sandwich and an apple in his coat pocket.

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

That's the Black guy's head, right?

--  Tommy

Yes - that is the black guy. The reference is to head size when moving from the TSBD to the Island. Someone had posted a slow motion clip that went just a frame or so longer which allowed Lovelady's head to be seen bigger than what it was when he first left the stairs. My point was that had he been walking away towards the  RR Yard and not angled towards the Island, then his head should have gotten smaller which it did not. Just at the end of the slow motion clip it seems to get larger meaning to me he had changed course once he passed the parked car next to the Island.

53 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

BTW, what do you think about the two men who appear to be crossing over Elm Street Extension?  (That is, after all, why I posted it.)

All the best,

--  Tommy

 

I think after they passed the running woman - they went around the back of the car they were passing and entered onto the Island in time to look back and see Truly and Patrolman Baker about to enter the TSBD, Here is the link to a discussion that Larsen has been participating in .......

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

bumped for Sandy Larsen

PS  I believe that's Officer Baker running off-screen, at the far right.  Either him or Running Lady (lol).  

It's the running woman.

10 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I will leave you with a quote from David K Johnson in his book The Big Questions of Philosophy

" We should never forget that our reasoning process can go wrong. This is why you always want to check your careful reasoning for flaws. Make sure that no fallacious, instincitve reasoning slipped in. Try to find errors, even look for evidence that you're wrong. After all, how hard is it to confirm your beliefs if that's all you're trying to do?  Anyone can find some evidence for anything! If you want to prove yourself right — try to prove yourself wrong. Because if you try to prove yourself wrong — and can't? Then it's a really good indication that you're right. Want to be even more assured? Invite others to prove you wrong. And remember — admit it when you are wrong."

Regards

Well said!

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

lol I don't think, personally, that I am doing back-flips to get the testimony to match up with who I think are Shelley and Lovelady walking down Elm Street extension.

I agree, in principle, that surely someone can't confuse 15 seconds (nearer 30 seconds surely) with 3 or 4 minutes as it is a big difference. Then again, Shelley is putting that time on how long he thought it was until Calvery ran back up - if his expectation was that it would take her X amount of time to cover that distance then that's what he was going to say...

This is what Sandy hangs his hat on ..........

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl [Gloria Calvery] that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Earlier Shelley had said the following to Mr. Ball .........

Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

According to Shelley here ... within a minute he and Lovelady had left the steps and moved to the Island. Once at the Island they stayed for a minute. I personally think this time period of a "minute" is a figure of speech and not meant to be taken literally. Twice Shelley referenced a minute and yet the two men left the steps before Baker had started his run according to what the Couch and Darnell films show.

I think way too much is being made of the references to time because considering what had just happen - I do not think any estimates of time based on recall are going to be accurate. Shelley starts out saying the two men were only on the steps for a minute if we are to take .... if we take him literally. At the same time it appears that Shelley either saw Calvery running towards he and Lovelady or the met her at the stairs. Yet later Shelly places the meeting with Calvery to be around four minutes which is the time frame Shelley gave Mr. Ball for the entire trip around the Plaza to have been made. So both cannot be correct - either they saw Calvery in the first minute or they saw her around four minutes later. Once again I say the only reliable time clock for Shelley and Lovelady's movements in the first minute following the shooting is the Cough and Darnell films.

Billy Lovelady said that before he went outside - he went up to the second floor to get a coke. Why would Lovelady grab his lunch and go to the second floor lunchroom to get a coke unless that was his only option.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

Oddly enough the Couch and Darnell films show what looks to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the steps and towards a woman running towards them. Her face turns towards Lovelady as she is passing him. It was then after walking a few more steps that Lovelady seems to move fast and by-passes Shelley and within a few steps he grows in size as his path brings him closer to the camera. Lovelady remembers running to the Island upon hearing Calvery saying the President had been hit and the two films in question show Lovelady hurry his pace to pass Shelley and move closer to the camera which puts him on the Island. Memories in time and actions can be a bit off when under stress, but the camera doesn't make those kinds of mistakes. There should be no confusion as to when the two men left the steps - met Calvery - and made it to the Island.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Note: The Couch and Darnell film show what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the stairs at a brisk walk.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

When asked how long after they left the stairs did the see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD - Lovelady said ......

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

The Couch and Darnell films show that it probably took the  two men about 25 steps to make it to the Island. So some of what these men said may be in error, but parts of their story is spot-on in conjunction with what the Couch and Darnell film shows. Again - the film rules over memory in my view.

12 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

Thanks for pointing it out again more emphatically.   The relative size of the head of the Lovelady character, compared with the white-wall tire, makes it obvious that the Lovelady character is already across the alley in front of the TSBD steps -- in other words -- already on that "little old island."

Now -- as for Lovelady's destination -- all you can tell for sure is his destination in the next couple of seconds -- you can't tell where he went afterwards.

I say this because Lovelady was very poor at estimating time -- so when he says he and Shelley went to the railroad tracks -- he doesn't necessarily mean that they went immediately to the railroad tracks.  He more likely means that they eventually went to the railroad tracks.  This would also accord with Bill Shelley's testimony.

Anyway -- your photographic eye seems correct to me now.   The Lovelady and Shelley characters are evidently on that "little old island" at the time of this film clip.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

The larger head certainly demonstrates that Lovelady changed course from where he was when the camera first picks him up. And if you look at Roberdeau's Map ... I  bet you would see how from where Couch or Darnell was located .... that a turn towards the Island once past the parked car would be bringing Lovelady closer to the cameras location. 

It's also worth considering that in times of sudden stress and confusion ... it's human nature to get some of the event mixed up - especially when it came to time and space. The film doesn't forget! So when one of the men corrects Mr. Ball by saying that upon leaving the stairs - they crossed the street more to the right or that they spoke to Gloria Calvery at the Island, then that portion of their recall is coming from it actually happening. At some point one must realize that Shelley and Lovelady may have been telling the truth for the most part.

I  believe that one of the two men said that they hung around the Island for about one minute before walking to the RR Yard.

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

It's a very interesting point -- but I'm uncertain of the claim -- the two men seem to be very close to the TSBD wall, in my interpretation.  Also, they don't tower over the cars as those other men, who are closer to the camera, who are clearly walking on the "little old island."

The average person is at least one foot taller than the average car.  Lovelady was average height, while Shelly was taller than average. 

It's an interesting point, however.  If they really are walking on the Island, then several claims can be made:

1.  Both Shelley and Lovelady were mistaken when they estimated they waited a full three minutes for Gloria Calvary to run up frantically with the bad news about JFK.  They probaby waited 15 seconds -- which seemed like a longer time because of the screaming and falling and dashing of the crowd.

Somehow that was a false recollection. The first thing them two did was see Calvery coming towards them to say the President had been shot to which Lovelady replied 'are you sure'. Does anyone really believe that Lovelady and Shelley went on a three minute hike after the shooting and remained oblivious to the President being shot until meeting Calvery afterwards - that dog just doesn't hunt and that scenario contradicts what Loverlady first said about having only gone about 15 to 25 steps from the stairs before looking back and seeing Truly about to enter the TSBD. 

2.  Both men started toward the "little old island" within 30 seconds.

The films do not lie

3.  This matches the crucial testimony of Office Marrion Baker -- which was confirmed by actual stopwatch tests, as well as by TSBD Superintendent Roy Truly.  They agree that they started up the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the JFK shooting.

 

Baker said he dismounted his bike and started his run upon hearing the police radio call to get men up in the RR yard to see what happened up there.

It could be Shelley and Lovelady on the "little old island" -- but I need more clues and evidence.  I can't tell by bare eyesight and these valuable film clips and photographs.   People are usually taller than cars -- just about the height we see in the photograph, IMHO.

It's their increase in size that shows they were moving closer to the camera. To do that they would have to of gone behind the parked car and walked towards the Island. You may recall that when one of them was asked if they went straight across the street after leaving the stairs - the reply was 'off more to the right'. What is seen on the Patrolman Baker running films tend to support the two men going off to the right - meeting the running woman (Calvery) - and then continuing to walk past the parked car and then turned towards the Island .... which would explain the sudden increase in Lovelady's head. Had Lovelady just kept walking away from the camera, then he would continue getting smaller in the cameras eye.

 

3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

Thanks! There is always evidence in a photo or film if one looks hard enough for it. I knew when some said that Lovelady and Shelley walked straight to the RR Yard and down the middle of the street was not correct. Had that been the case, then they would have decreased in size as they kept moving away. And maybe they started in that direction because they saw Calvery coming from there and crying (?) - but once they passed the running woman, then moved closer to the Island and the camera or else their heads would not have increased in size. (see illustration)  The width between two reference points in the background was used to scale the  two images in width size.

Not so certain they are exact because they were filmed from two different locations. Not the large door in the background and its relation to the street light pole. Quite a shift takes place. In that sense they are not perfectly in sync with each other.  The President's car has left the Plaza and Baker said he had heard the radio call about getting up into the RR Yard to see what had just occurred up there before running to the TSBD. So an estimate of 20 to 30 seconds is probably correct  while leaving room for a lot of things to have taken place in that amount of time.

31 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Ray made a great point when he said;

A great point.

How to define a conspiracy though? For me, personally, anything that proves the WC conclusion even is partly wrong proves a conspiracy.

Regards

P.S. welcome to the forum Henrik.

The HSCA admitted there was a 95% chance there was a conspiracy bases on the evidence.

2 hours ago, Henrik Fendt said:

Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

Henrik,

Do you know what all the employees looked like who worked in and around the TSBD ... including any people who were working on the building?  I would like to see photos of them, but I assume there are not any.  It's also worth noting that in the amount of time before the stairs were ever filmed - there was ample time for anyone on the street to have moved up the steps to get a higher vantage point. Not saying someone did, just saying no one has ruled that out as far as I know.