Bill Miller

24 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Can't win, eh! Either it's too long for you or too short.

Show the picture!

It's so nice to have to spoon feed others even over the simple things.  

10 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

What kind of bird are you, William?

An eagle-eyed cockatiel?  Or something more fowl?

--  Tommy 

A bird with an eye for detail and who isn't afraid to lay it out there.

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I am asking everyone here not to believe Bill Miller's accusations against me. I do NOT intentionally choose lesser evidence over better to make my points. And I am not generally inept with images.

Sandy,

Still waiting for you to explain where you got the information that  " Lovelady is known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around on the TSBD steps " ???  I have read about everything there is on the assassination and I have not found any data that says Lovelady on 11/22/63 was going around buttoning and unbuttoning his shirt. I went on to say, "I am hoping that you didn't just make that up out of thin air so to try and seem correct. They call that Fake News these days. That is where someone invents a fact and then attempts to use it to support their position".

So do you have a source other than you just saying it ... that Lovelady was known to button and unbutton his shirt on the day of the assassination? It's a fair question concerning a can of worms that you opened, so just stop the whining and cite the source for your statement pertaining to Lovelady being known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason.

35 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

The figure's bald forehead (with hair on the side), a glimpse of his white t-shirt and a white horizontal stripe on his sleeve, and his placement on that side of the steps clinched it for me.

Parrots continually repeat things, but are unable to know what it is they are saying. How about you pointing out the horizontal stripe on the sleeve and the white T-shirt on washed-out man so we can all be on  the same page..

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Regarding whether Lovelady buttoned his shirt up, does his white tee shirt here:
 

....seem consistent with it here:

 

(Note the shadow on Lovelady's right side.)

 

These frames were taken several seconds apart.

4 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Yes, it is, Bill.  Please show your proof that it isn't.

Ray,

There are a couple of things that stand out to me, so I will mention the most obvious one so to save time.

Are you able to see that the black lines are 2.5X wider than the white lines on the shirt Lovelady posed with on the steps? Take a close look - get out a ruler and place it onto your screen if you like. The shirt Billy Lovelady is wearing on assassination day shows the black and while lines to be very uniform to one another. I will go out on a limb right off and say that the washing machine did not cause the white lines to narrow over time.

The assassination day shirt Lovelady wore shows black and white stripes of what appears to be equal size, and at least for closer to the same size than the Lovelady shirt shows on the front steps photo.

Now I know that some people have said Lovelady's shirt must have shrunk in the washing machine, but that is not what the evidence of those stripe widths tell me.

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So no, I didn't misidentify Lovelady.

The mis-identification I was referring to was the one in the Darnell film that I call "washout man".

33 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

Okay, Bill, I agree with you that that white segment you showed me is Lovelady's white tee shirt showing through. But I still maintain that he buttoned his shirt up, and that that is apparent in the video. He obviously missed one button.

There is no evidence of Lovelady unbuttoning and buttoning his shirt other than you saying it and using some selective profile views.

Quote

BTW, in this photo that you posted:

....you complained that it showed his shirt buttoned up higher than it was in video we're discussing. Well, apparently that is true given that the white strip we see in the video goes down to the button that we see buttoned up here. But in bringing this up, you are inadvertently making my case stronger. The further down the shirt is unbuttoned, the more the tee shirt will be exposed. And yet we see absolutely no white above the strip that you pointed out.

That is not the same shirt Billy wore on 11/22/63. Your ability to identify these noticeable differences is atrocious in my view.

Quote

Also BTW, if this is your photo:
 

....it strengthens my case even more. Look how wide that shirt is open at that point in time. Yet at the later time in the video there is nothing! No white! Except for that short strip where Lovelady apparently missed a button when buttoning up.

There is no white stripe than can humanly be possible to see in the Darnell image. You are now claiming things that is just not possible when using these images. The detail in the decorative masonry is not even discernible while you are telling me about a silly vertical pin stripe from a shirt that Lovelady didn't even wear on the day of the shooting.

By all means report me .....  

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's it!

I am seriously considering reporting you to admin for questioning my honesty.

Report away because you either do it on purpose or you are showing to be inept at working with images. The latter was my first thought, but when you make the same mistakes over and over once you have been made aware of them , then one has to wonder but what you are doing it on purpose.

For example:  Just today you posted a Youtube video showing Billy Lovelady moving west on the stairs as seen in the Hughes film. At the very beginning of the walk west on the steps it is very clear that Lovelady's shirt is not buttoned up as his very white T-shirt is quite visible as seen here ...

Before that you made the claim that 'Loveday was known for buttoning up his shirt' and I asked you where did you get that information from ....... still waiting to hear you say that you made that up!

Then there was Lovelady after he moved towards the handrail and I pointed out that when he turns his head to a profile position .... his body turns just enough to give a glimpse of his unbuttoned shirt.  You responded with this, "Note the shadow now appearing on Lovelady's chest, primarily on his right half of the chest. Which proves that the right half of the shirt is exposed to the camera in this frame. The following photo can be used as a reference to see where the white tee shirt should be exposed:" What you said was utter hogwash and to make it worse - you used a different shirt than the one Lovelady wore on the day of the assassination. Did you even study that shirt before you decided to add it to the mix - it certainly doesn't appear so to me!

But even sillier is that the Lovelady who has walked west towards the handrail in just a few steps is the same Lovelady who has his white T-shirt exposed at the onset of his moving to the middle of the steps. That's right ... here is the image used in an illustration that begs the question - where is the white T-shirt at the time of the shooting that should be seen on "washout man"?  (see below)

So until you explain where you got the information that Lovelady is known to button and unbutton his shirt often, then I will say it doesn't fit that Billy has an unbuttoned shirt in the Hughes film as JFK's car comes onto Elm Street - the same is seen in Altgens 6 as the shooting is happening - but before Patrolman Baker can run across the Elm Street extension .... washout man has buttoned up his shirt .....

.... only to unbutton it as before as seen here below.

So instead of sitting up throughout the night posting about me being left in the dust by Thomas Graves ... you may wish to get some sleep so to be refreshed when looking at the photographic evidence. Perhaps then you can look at Lovelady in a newer plaid shirt and spot that the white stripes are only half the width of those on the shirt that Billy had on at the time of the assassination. And that the 11/22/63 shirt had a shirt pocket that the thin white pin striped shirt does not.

And if you do not see these things at first - just wait until the dust settles and eventually you'll figure it out.  

36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

In the still photo it does look like a woman, in profile, looking west.

Problem is, the animated gif has her:

• Rising sideways up the steps. Possible, but awkward.
• With a rather long horizontal tumor (what has been described as All Black Woman's arm) on her back, rising with her.

 

Looks to me as though she is stepping up and turning to face west at the same time. And considering there is an outcropping there for her to hold onto - it is very possible.

No long horizontal tumor - just a manipulation created when someone bumped up the brightness which expanded the sunlight shining off the clothing on her upper back.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And you would lose the bet....
 

....because I did find the clip, and I did find a segment where Lovelady "comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly." And yet I don't see what you claim I would see, "that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible."

What I see is what I originally told you, that the shirt is buttoned up. (Unless we are to believe that the shirt is being magically held closed.)

Note the shadow now appearing on Lovelady's chest, primarily on his right half of the chest. Which proves that the right half of the shirt is exposed to the camera in this frame. The following photo can be used as a reference to see where the white tee shirt should be exposed:

Gee Bill, I just posted the image I had available in my collection. I never dreamed someone would accuse me of being deceitful by posting it rather than the one I post here, which I had to go out and find.

Nice try .... I will ignore your putting up a photo of Lovelady at a later date where he had his shirt buttoned higher when posing for the photo. We will just say that your hand slipped when that card came off the bottom of the deck.  

Now pay close attention to the Martin film on the left. Just as Lovelady turns his head to where is takes a profile position - the gap in his unbuttoned shirt exposes his milk white T-shirt for just a moment. His left hand is down by his hip, so he wasn't unbuttoning his shirt as he twisted towards the camera.

I wish I had access to all my old enhancements and digital movies because this garbage was being defended by the Fetzer crowd many years ago and it was debunked to death. Lovelady's body turn exposing his white T-shirt is enough to show the flaws in your thinking. You choose a still image over a moving one - a poor image over a better one .... all in the name of giving the appearance that Lovelady buttoned up his shirt for that moment and then unbuttoned it soon afterward. That is simply ludicrous in my opinion.

26 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Below, exact same gif just slowed down...

Quick question, do you think that two people could be 'face to face' whilst standing on the same step?

It's a woman who is in semi-profile who is looking west towards the RR yard while easing up the stairs.

That Benny Hill stuff doesn't work like simply removing the glare from the image. It was the over contrasted lighting adjustment of sunlight shining off her shoulders and face that looked like a disjointed arm. What the gif Chris made does is show the stairs through the shadows on  the stairs. May have been Kamp that wanted to argue otherwise, but it is what it is.

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I wouldn't bet on seeing the open shirt even if it is Lovelady. Why? Because Lovelady is known to button his shirt up for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around the TSBD steps.

Unbuttoned:   (Lovelady is on the far right.)

And a few seconds later...

Buttoned:

 

Sandy,

Still waiting for you to explain where you got the information that  " Lovelady is known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around on the TSBD steps " ??? 

I am hoping that you didn't just make that up out of thin air so to try and seem correct. They call that "Fake News" these days. That is where someone invents a fact and then attempts to use it to support their position. So just for my peace of mind - are you the only source for  "Lovelady being known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason - even when hanging around the TSBD steps"?????????

Also, don't be so quick to use the poorest images to claim to be able to make positive ID's from. For all we know this guy seen above with the BL hairline could be "washout man".

One more thing - did anyone notice in the Hughes film that when the policeman turns to step through the doorway that he exposes a man who looks like Howard Brennan? Looks like the same object in his shirt pocket to me. Perhaps Truly had spoken to Howard - just not until after he and Baker went inside the building.

1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

A closer look.

Enlarged it too much. 

Lost the detail in the lady's face/head who's turning/sidestepping at the left corner wall.

Mentally turned it into an arm sliding up the wall.

Sorry about that.

chris

 

That is correct, Chris. I wish however you would slow the gif down because when they are sped up like that - their "Benny Hill' effect distract the eyes from other details. If you must do this, then please show a second one as a slightly slower speed.

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The closest we have is sworn testimony from Dallas Deputy Roger Craig, who said he saw Oswald running down the Grassy Knoll to rush into a Green Rambler, driven by a dark-skinned man.  Yet this suggests to me that Oswald ran from behind the TSBD, not from the front steps.

I agree that Lee probably left the building out a rear exit.

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Prayer Man cannot be Oswald, if we go by sworn statements of eye-witnesses, all of which deny seeing Oswald on the first floor TSBD.  Also, that figure known as Prayer Man seems too fat to be Oswald, and is wearing a very large shirt.

I must also agree.

39 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Does the arm on the wall not belong to the 'woman in black'?

I believe it does.

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

I would bet against you because if you were to find that clip that the film capture came from - you would eventually see that when Lovelady comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible.

You may note that I said "if you were to find" .... because if someone had that portion of film and merely chose the profile view to claim the shirt was buttoned, then that would be deceitful as I sure you would agree. This now brings me to your comment that "Lovelady was known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around the TSBD steps." What assassination footage of Lovelady is there showing a frontal view where he didn't have his shirt open for you to have been able to make such a statement?

Approximately the same period of time seen from different angles. Watch around the 1:10 to 1:25 minute mark.

May Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves feel free to wait for the dust they left me in to clear!   

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I wouldn't bet on seeing the open shirt even if it is Lovelady. Why? Because Lovelady is known to button his shirt up for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around the TSBD steps.

And a few seconds later...

Buttoned:

 

I would bet against you because if you were to find that clip that the film capture came from - you would eventually see that when Lovelady comes out of profile to the camera by turning his body slightly that his open long sleeved shirt is unbuttoned and exposed T-Shirt has become visible.

You may note that I said "if you were to find" .... because if someone had that portion of film and merely chose the profile view to claim the shirt was buttoned, then that would be deceitful as I sure you would agree. This now brings me to your comment that "Lovelady was known to button up his shirt for no apparent reason. Even when hanging around the TSBD steps." What assassination footage of Lovelady is there showing a frontal view where he didn't have his shirt open for you to have been able to make such a ststement?

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

edited and bumped for Chris Davidson

Yes - maybe Chris can show you the white T-Shirt that should be visible considering that Lovelady's plaid shirt was open. This frame gives an open view of this person's chest area and I cannot find that White T-shirt.  I have tried several filters with no success. I will be most interested in seeing how Chris can make that person appear to have an open shirt with a milk white T-Shirt on underneath. Of course you can always just ignore that it is missing and just say tat it's there. 

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Great Photo and Film Analyst,

I think you've exhausted us, William, so I'm gonna declare you "the winner."

Even though that IS Lovelady talking with the woman in black in the steps in Couch - Darnell.

 

All the best.

--  Tommy

Looking forward to you actually being able to do more than just saying it as that is the type of thing Baghdad Bob was known for. 

JFK's memory deserves a little better than that in my view because merely claiming independent witnesses conspired to lie as to who they saw first entering the TSBD and when without knowing what photographic evidence could be out there proving otherwise is an illogical risk assumption in my view.

Regardless of your reasons, which I probably know better then yourself, there is no  basis for ignoring a group of supporting witnesses - all independent of one another. If you feel superior to think otherwise, then that is on you - not me. I am not interested in starting with a conclusion and then start calling witnesses liars because they didn't say what I wanted to hear. Washout man in wrong on so many levels that its not worth explaining over and over again - blew Baker's run - and Truly obviously turned in Darnell so to follow the Patrolman just as the witnesses said. They were seen from both sides of the TSBD entrance entering the building and before anyone else in the Plaza did.

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Do you believe that ANY witness before the WC was asked to tell a lie?

I am aware of how some witnesses were treated. None of which has anything to do with the point I have made concerning a group of people working together to mislead anyone over something as ridiculous as running up some steps or entering the TSBD.

I think that for those who think every witness is a xxxx or had their testimony changed, then I see little sense in them reading the testimonies in the first place.

Again - good luck with that washout man image - I have no more time to waste on it.

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Bill,

I don't know of anybody here who believes that witnesses were involving themselves in some kind of conspiracy.

What many of us do believe is that some of the witnesses were convinced by the authorities -- by citing national security concerns, or through intimidation -- that they should say things that weren't true.

Anybody who believes that the government covered up the facts of the assassination should also accept the fact that the authorities changed witness testimonies.

When researchers like us see witness testimony that is unbelievably inconsistent with physical evidence or the testimonies of several other witnesses, we consider the possibility that their testimony was altered. That is the wise and proper thing to do.

All I will say about that is that there are in my opinion people who are not capable of following the line of questioning - the responses of the witnesses in their totality - and applying  them things correctly against the photographic record when ever possible. Not even the Government was able to know all the peoples names who were in Dealey Plaza that day, nor was it possible for them to know that all the films and photos had been collected and viewed.

So if you are suggesting that the Feds rounded up Truly, Baker, Shelley, Piper, Lovelady, West, among others and forced them to lie about silly things like who was the first persons who entered the TSBD or where they were when they witnessed it, then I say "nonsense"!

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's the background that jumps, not the limo. Since Zapruder was following the movement of the limo.

The slower the limo is moving (assuming it really did slow down), the slower the background will move relative to the frames. Which means that the jump will be less.

Because of that, the removal of frames technique becomes viable. But only if the spectators remain still. Any movement they make will be sped up and could look unnatural.

I used the Nix gif because it was easy and readily available to me. I have dealt with all the alteration foolishness and have never found any evidence of such. In fact, there was a study of the frames from various films during the shooting and we found them to all be in-sync with each other.

51 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

He's also assuming that Lovelady accompanied Shelly on his little walk about.

--  Tommy

It was their testimony Vs the evidence Kamp has offered showing two men walking on the extension that offer a clearer image of what looks like Shelley and Lovelady's features than that presented with washout man.