Bill Miller

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The problem, Bill, is you are assuming two things:

1. That Officer Baker ran immediately into the building.
2. That Lovelady is telling the truth.

The problem with #1 is that it has been debunked. The film evidence shows otherwise. (Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?)

The problem with #2 is that Lovelady says -- in the same breath as what you've quoted above -- that he and Shelley didn't leave the steps till 3 minutes after the shooting. Shelley said the same. And yet Darnell shows that the two guys walking down the extension had to have left the steps (assuming that is where they came from) within a few seconds after the shots. Like less than 10 seconds. How could BOTH Shelley and Lovelady confuse 10 seconds with 3 minutes?

Someone make up their minds because not that long ago the people moving up the stairs were said to be on their way back inside the TSBD as if they were to be the first people to enter the building. The theory that Patrolman Baker ran on past the stairs means those people climbing the steps had to wait for how ever long it took so to let Truly and a policeman to enter before them. That notion is not logical in my view when two independent witnesses who were inside the building at the time the parade passed by said that Truly and a policeman were the first people onto the first floor before anyone else.

Now I realize there have been things claimed by some members here that appear to me to be self-serving at best. But however ...I must remind everyone that holds to their views that Lovelady, Shelley, Truly, Patrolman Baker, West, Piper, and etc., could not have possibly known how many photos and films were taken during and after the assassination that would show that they willingly entered a conspiracy to lie about who entered the TSBD had they done so. So who's motive seems stronger - the witnesses to recall that even correctly or those egos here that have their own theory they want to be correct?

As for me, I do not believe that any of those witnesses would have wanted to risk doing anything that would make them appear to be lying that could be seen as an involvement in misleading the investigators and implicating themselves in the murder of a U.S. President after the fact.  I find it far more probable that because of the lack of order that the Commission questioned these witnesses - that misstatements were made in light of them saying something differently in their testimonies when first laying out the chain of events beforehand.

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Chris Davidson's fine, non-blurry GIF shows what I'm talking about:

Removing frames or contrasting the images do not make them any clearer and in this instance it certainly didn't make washout man any more recognizable. And what I don't understand is if you are simply going to suggest that person being anyone, then why not just say its Lee Oswald making change for the bus ride home.

The zip/frames Chris has made do not even show the detail of the white decoration on the front of the building and yet you can say it offers more detail so you can say with certainty that washout man is Lovelady .... that defies all logic as I know it to be.

Like I said before - I wish it was Lovelady for I would love to see the expression on Kamp's face, but saying its Lovelady without more to go on doesn't make it so.  One might as well be saying that the bullet's missed the President - he walked into Parkland on his own accord - and resigned being President because it would make us all feel better to think it.  

Oh by the way ... your mystery Lovelady man better get a move on ....

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Can one assume anything else than Lovelady is talking about himself and Bill Shelley leaving the steps together? This doesn't fit your theory "the possibility that Shelley went for a little stroll all by him widdle self, while Lovelady stayed on the steps and was caught in Couch-Darnell"

And can we not say that Truly and Patrolman Baker didn't dally around on those steps so to be the first ones to enter the building and come onto the first floor as West and Piper said they witnessed. Help me out here for I am having trouble re-writing all these things so to get your wash-out man to be Lovelady.

Let us see if Shelley uses "we" to describe he and Lovelady leaving the steps together ....

Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.


Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Well Shelley was no help as he too says that he and Lovelady left at the stairs at the same time.

And lastly there is this image of two men together who are walking away from the TSBD. One is wearing a dark suit and has a similar wave of hair at the top front of his head like Bill Shelley had - and the other guy in what looks to be a plaid shirt with a Billy Lovelady receding hairline getting closer to where they said they were when they saw Truly and a policeman about to enter the front door of the TSBD. 

       " We "

But how can that be when your theory has the following concept  that you offered ... "Shelley went for a little stroll all by him widdle self, while Lovelady stayed on the steps and was caught in Couch-Darnell ". 

11 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear William,

Regarding whether or not "Lovelady" rose up somewhat while standing (broad definition of "standing" here) on that step, I suggest that you look at Prayer Person's right arm and ask yourself whether or not he / she moves it in a downward direction.  If he / she doesn't, then how else than "Lovelady's" rising a little bit or a lot (straightening up from a leaning-over position?) could explain the fact that his ("Lovelady's") head rises above said arm at the very, very end of the GIF?

Perspective: the art of drawing solid objects on a two-dimensional surface so as to give the right impression of their height, width, depth, and position in relation to each other when viewed from a particular point.

The upward line of sight to the PM's arm would not need but the person between he and the camera to lean forward or back just a slight amount to expose more or less of PM's figure. If the camera was on the same plane as both men then the difference would not seem so drastic.

Several reference points beyond the man in the video and marked with horizontal lines and letters both above and below the camera's line of sight. Even a slight lean causes the man's height to either expose or hide objects behind him. It's a simple matter of understanding perspective when dealing with objects seen in a 2D image.

Graves:  " If I have ever said I thought the "Lovelady" figure in Couch-Darnell "stood up" from a sitting-down position, or a squatting-on-"his"- haunches position, or a kneeling-down-on-the-steps position, then I deeply apologize for having chosen those particular words, because that's not what I believe now at all."

You have posted on this matter in two or three threads now, so you may not recall what you have said from time to time.  The same may occur with those who have to read several threads to piece meaningless nonsense together as none of it proves the washed-out figure you now feel is Lovelady is in fact him. However, this is what you said prior to where we are now ...  "What about the possibility that Shelley went for a little stroll all by him widdle self, while Lovelady stayed on the steps and was caught in Couch-Darnell as he was semi-crouching (and talking or listening to someone else there?), and then slowly rising to his "full height" (lol), right below Prayer Person's right elbow?"

Then you posted some nonsense about my mentioning "leaning" as a possibility to account for what is seen and then you asked if that was some sort of damage control statement I had made. There was no damage that needed to be controlled as I addressed that one did not need to get up from a sitting position or rise from a squatting position as even a simple lean or posture adjustment could cause that person to rise slightly upward towards PM's right arm. That simple rule of perspective has been shown above.

Elsewhere you wrote that you deleted an 'infantile image' that I posted. The offensive animation was a laughing smiley seen below. I posted it after you wrote " LOL" throughout your many responses. I can only assume that you are looking to find fault anywhere you can and had nothing of value to complain about, but that is your problem to overcome - not mine.

3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

When you follow action with a camera - like she did - and snap, you're going to have less or no blur.  Watch what she did in the Z film - from the time you see her until she's gone - she was following the limo.  If she had just held the camera still and the car drove into the shot, it'd be more blurry.

Gary Mack always said that Moorman's photo was really quite clear and that the fixative that wasn't applied is what lessened the photos quality over time. This was why he and Jack used the best print made from the original before more clarity was lost when they did their Badge Man investigation.

It was photographer Chris Lamson who years ago pointed out to me the the limo's center hub emblems were spinning which proved the car had not actually stopped in the street as Fetzer and White were trying to claim.

On 2/14/2017 at 0:17 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

53 years already passed and somehow no one saw them...

On 2/14/2017 at 1:30 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Or maybe they have.

Maybe just maybe at least one of them has been 'hidden' in plain view all these years... maybe.

If no one seeing this person referred to as PM means that none of the few people in that location knew who the guy was - perhaps they were not specifically asked.

If it is meant that none of the TSBD witnesses ever mentioned who this person was, then I say why would they even if they did no him.  Beull Frazier mentioned a few names and I believe one or two he wasn't certain about or had just a first name. The one thing I am certain about for me personally is that Buell would have said he was standing next to Lee Oswald (his car pool buddy) had that been the case. In fact, recently I saw Buell on a "History Matters" show at the 6th floor Museum. He mentioned seeing Oswald outside of the TSBD walking east across Houston Street and then South crossing Elm Street before disappearing into the crowd. My first thought was that I did not recall him mentioning this to the Commission. Regardless, the point is he was now saying he saw Lee outside the building following the assassination and I think he speculated that Lee must have came out the back by the loading dock. He said nothing about Lee standing on the landing outside the first floor during or after the assassination.

Any removed frames would cause a sudden jumping forward of the limo and would be quite noticeable to anyone looking for it.

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear William, 

So, you do admit that the head of the person I'm calling "Lovelady" does rise "a little bit," right?

Fantastic.

Are you capable of imagining that, regardless of who that person was, he or she might have leaned forward a little bit to talk with someone standing a couple steps below him or her?  I mean, given the noise factor and everything?

Great.

Now we're really "cooking with gas"!

--  Tommy

Was there any confusion when I said the following in my previous post ....

" I saw the head rise slightly ... which doesn't take much to reach PM's arm when the camera is looking slightly upward from the street. A shift in posture could account for this. However, it was suggested that this individual had stood up and I don't believe for a second that this person heard shots and decided to sit down on the steps ... which is not what Lovelady said he had done."

So cook with gas if you like .... just stop inhaling its fumes before reading my postings so to better understand what I have said.  

55 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear William,

Regarding whether or not "Lovelady" rose up somewhat while standing (broad definition of "standing" here) on that step, I suggest that you look at Prayer Person's right arm and ask yourself whether or not he / she moves it in a downward direction.  If he / she doesn't, then how else than "Lovelady's" rising a little bit (straightening up from a leaning-over position?) could explain the fact that his ("Lovelady's") head rises above said arm at the very, very end of the GIF?

 

--  Tommy

I saw the head rise slightly ... which doesn't take much to reach PM's arm when the camera is looking slightly upward from the street. A shift in posture could account for this. However, it was suggested that this individual had stood up and I don't believe for a second that this person heard shots and decided to sit down on the steps ... which is not what Lovelady said he had done.

Nor do I believe that all these people went up to the landing and crowded around so to wait as long as three minutes for Truly and Patrolman Baker to enter the front door of the TSBD. This is why I bring up two independent witnesses who were inside alone on a quite first floor - with one in the vestibule and the other in a nearby office. The man in the office (West) heard shots and immediately came out on the first floor and both men testified that their boss (Roy TRuly) and a Policeman entered the building together and were the first ones on the floor before anyone else from outside of the building.

Shelley and Lovelady were quite clear they were on the Island (Lovelady saying 25 steps from the building) when he looked back and saw Truly at the top of the stairs and moving towards the door. West and Piper testified that Truly and the Policeman were the first one;s through the door. Sandy's version of the event has people piling onto the landing like atop of a sinking ship so to wait for presumably Truly and Baker to be the first one's to enter the building. I find his position to be as weak as a newborn baby's hand-shake.

You may recall that I had at first did not buy Kamp's claim that the two men walking on the Elm Street extension and away from the stairs were Shelley and Lovelady. But carefully evaluating all the evidence ... I agree that Kamp appears to have been right. I believe West and Piper would not have been wrong about who the first individuals were who rushed onto the floor through the entrance of the TSBD doorway. Mr. Ball had jumped back and forth in his questioning of Shelley and Lovelady and I believe that is what lead to any confusion as to when Lovelady saw Truly about to enter the building. The most obvious reason is that one could not have toured over to the Island - then walked to the tracks in the RR yard - and then walked back to the back of the TSBD in a mere 25 steps to look up to see Truly enter the building. I think Sandy is hung up on a single misstatement in the report that defies all the other statements made prior and from witnesses like West and Piper.

And for the record - I never said the person in question was a woman ... someone else had. I may have posted Man/woman when addressing someone's comments because what I was referencing did not have anything to do with this person's gender and I didn't care to argue over what sex the person was. I was and am convinced it wasn't Lovelady. I wish it was though just to see Kamp go ballistic - 

5 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

I think we can see the woman in black leaning towards "our" Lovelady, and, yes, that might be her bare left arm that we see.

If she was wearing "heels" for our handsome President and his elegant wife to see, she might have wanted to stabilize herself while standing on that step by holding onto the building.  I mean, I always try to hold onto something when I'm wearing my high heels.  (lol)

Question: Is the woman in white to her immediate right trying to pull her up the steps, or does she have a black sweater or something draped over her left forearm?

--  Tommy

 

It looked to me like the woman in the light colored coat was merely trying to manipulate her was around the woman to her left.

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You believe the guy in this video (alleged Lovelady) is a woman?

Please pay attention so not to attempt to morph or twist the things I have said ....

I said that the person you are trying to turn into another Lovelady did not rise from a sitting on the steps, but that it may have appeared this person rose up because of the woman between he and the camera. Did you notice that she appears to  have her hand on the wall. If someone could measure the distance between the top of her shoulders to someone standing on the sidewalk before and then after you think the alleged BL rose up - then it may be that the woman eased back down a half a step which only made this person you  believe to be Billy Lovelady look to rise up.

I am not saying this happened for my time is more important elsewhere .... I am just saying if it is important to you, then there are ways to check the things you think you are seeing.

20 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair,

I set the premise the way I did in post #1 for a particular reason. So I don't wish to change it.

But of course  you can start a thread with the premise of your choice.

Your premise selects a portion of their testimony that allows for them not to see Truly for three minutes. It has been shown why that is in error. I have now added two inside witnesses who one says no one was in the first floor vestibule but him at the time of the shooting and the other exiting his office and onto the first floor upon hearing the shots - both men seeing Truly and a Policeman being the first people to enter the building and onto their floor. For your theory to be right - no one came through the front door for three minutes when these witnesses are taken into consideration.

4 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Thanks Bill, Zapruder was 18 fps but the shutter speed was 1/40 I believe. That determines the amount of motion blur. You said the car was barley moving in Moorman's photo but  Zapruder 313 is the same moment in time or very close, so the limo speed must be the same in both Zapruder and Moorman. I was looking at the side of the white wall to determine motion blur which looks pretty sharp, So I am wondering about the shutter speed of Moorman's camera

Zapruder was always struggling to keep his balance. The limo was moving left to right in his field of view. (Z313)

Moorman had Kennedy just past her location and moving away with Mary not being shaky with the holding of her camera.

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Happy to be of assistance.

What about the aperture? What affect does that have?

Just to ask, is it fair to compare the amount of blur seen in Zapruder and the amount of blur seen in Moorman seen as the former is filming and the latter is merely taking a photo?

Regards

Zapruder suffered from severe Vertigo and was constantly moving as he stood atop of the pedestal trying to pivot with the limos line of travel. Mary was pointing her camera as the limo had just passed he and was much steadier in her holding of the camera.

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

 Actually, it is difficult in some Z frames to see the flat black shoes.  But, if you look at many Z frames they are there.  That still doesn't stop me from believing she wore high heels that day.

     I agree that some frames are blurry and can be misleading. My beef with Jack was he was willing to always pick the worse frames to make his case with while ignoring the ones that didn't support alteration. Fetzer and that small group couldn't bring themselves to tell the emperor so-to-speak that he had no clothes on. As I have said - I liked Jack, but the only King in this story was assassinated on 11/22/63.   

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Nope. That's not it, Detective Clark, although now that I've read it again, I do see your point.

MY roundabout point was that, IMHO, not all the images (plural) in the GIF are so degraded as to make it impossible to identify the figure in question as Billy Nolan Lovelady.

--  Tommy

My point was that none of those images were clear enough for anyone to positively ID that person as Lovelady. I mention that the Darnell film supports what Lovelafy and Shelley said about Truly about to go through the front door when they glanced back from the Island. That two witnesses who were inside the building on the first floor stated that Truly and  a Policeman were the first people to enter the building

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

What about the possibility that Shelley went for a little stroll all by him widdle self, while Lovelady stayed on the steps and was caught in Couch-Darnell as he was semi-crouching (and talking or listening to someone else there?), and then slowly rising to his "full height" (lol), right below Prayer Person's right elbow?

Why did Shelley and Lovelady have to stay together, wherever that might have been?  Because they later said that they had?  LOL

--  Tommy

Why would they not just say they left the stairs together ... was it because they assumed the Darnell film would show them walking across the extension to the right and over onto the Island in time to see Truly and Patrolman Baker enter the front door of the TSBD because they knew their friends on the first floor 'Piper and West' would tell everyone that the first two people who entered the building were their Boss  accompanied by a Police Officer? 

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You are dreaming that Shelley and Lovelady saw B&T go in.

Stay on topic dude.

And with regards the above from you it is more than evident that about half a dozen peeps made their way up the steps before B&T as seen in Darnell

Sorry Kamp ... I don't dream up things so to push an agenda.

I really don't care about how fast the little old gals made their way up and stairs and seeing how the camera goes off of those women, then for someone to say they were the first people to enter the TSBD is left to speculation.

Troy Eugene West

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any shots fired?
Mr. WEST - I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were eating your lunch? Anyone else at all did you see on the first floor?
Mr. WEST - It wasn't anybody. I didn't see anybody around at that time.
Mr. BELIN - At any time while you were making coffee or eating your lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor?
Mr. WEST - No, sir; I didn't see.
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you - while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were coming in the front door.
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch?
Mr. WEST - Well, that was the police.
Mr. BELIN - A police officer?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Anyone else?
Mr. WEST - I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a crowed of them coming in there.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building?
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police.

3 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I think he is picking on you for the awkward sentence, highlighted in red.

He will have to get over it as I do ok considering the little sleep I get these days. 

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Brad,

That was a very interesting and fascinating post.  I am going to reread it.  If people go back and look at what I have been posting they will see a very challenging and different outlook on the assassination.  I hope I am introducing new material for thought.  But, the more I look at it people have went over this same ground in the past.  With the posts I have made I hope I have introduced something new.

My purpose is to challenge and debunk the first visual things that were put out to the American Public that in part convinced them and me at the time, 1963, that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone nut killer of President Kennedy. 

These are in order of appearance to the public:

Altgens 6

Mary Moorman's Polaroid

Zapruder Film

and, the Backyard Photos

These are the "kill organizers" main storyline.

Jack White was my hero.  That is until certain things came up.  I wish he was still alive so I could ask him about those issues.  However, in anything I have looked at that Jack said about the visual record I have not found anything I would disagree with.  It is mostly what he didn't say.  I think Jack knew more than what he was telling and towards the end let a few things slip.  I agree with Jack White the whole visual record of Dealey Plaza is tainted.  There is a large number of films and photos that have been seized and suppressed.  They were probably destroyed. 

Has anyone ever wondered why there are no films or photos showing the passenger side of the presidential limousine cruising down Main, Houston, and Elm St. other than Zapruder.

I surveyed the available visual records showing Elm St., Houston St., the intersection of Main and Houston.  I think I have found about 25 or so (I will have to look at my notes for how many) people with cameras not covered in the visual record. 

There maybe roughly 13 people filming on the SW corner of Elm and Houston rather than the reported five. 

 

I liked Jack, but at the time of his 'everything must be altered' thinking - he could not conduct a single spacing test correctly. After someone attacked him at his place  years before - his thinking was never the same.

Jack said the gap between the pedestal and the windows were perfectly aligned between these two images. You tell me if he was correct or not?

Jack said the Zapruder film was altered to show Moorman was wearing white shoes ... you tell me if he was correct or was he just unable to see the black shoes beneath Mary's white socks?

On 1/28/2017 at 0:35 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

Quite far? Maybe to where the 'diamond shapes' are or further...

(Just for clarity, Chris, my own opinion is that the two characters seen walking down the street in the clip that Baker can be seen running across the road are Shelley and Lovelady. )

 

Certainly one of them has the Bill Shelley hairdo.  

On 1/28/2017 at 0:04 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Pretend these two gentlemen are Lovelady and Shelley after hearing the last shot.

The recreation was shot with a 16mm camera (24fps) by Underwood.

The two gentlemen on the stairs are approx two seconds apart, so someone starting at the landing, walking down the stairs and someone near the middle step will end up approx where you see them after (86 progressive frames/5.6seconds). 

How far West would they end up in 20-30 seconds?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OWlo5Q3FxdDRaU1U/view?usp=sharing

I don't get the point ... are you trying to guess how far they would have walked had they bolted off the steps at the sound of gunfire or how far  they would have gone just as Patrolman Baker was dismounting his motorcycle?

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear William,

LOL

--  Tommy

Must be a joke that I am missing. Are you saying that Truly and Patrolman Baker did not immediately run up the steps and into the TSBD before anyone else?

On 2/14/2017 at 10:26 AM, Thomas Graves said:

 

Robin,

That's correct.

In some of the un-blurry "frames" of this GIF you can see his white t-shirt under the darker shirt, his eyes and mouth, and hair on the side of his bald forehead.

You can even make out some of the plaid pattern of his shirt.

--  Tommy

I think the shirt is no whiter/brighter looking than the right arm is.

On 1/4/2017 at 3:32 PM, David Josephs said:

Did it ever occur to you that you run up an incline of steps to a landing and then turn and go up a second incline to equal one floor. To someone who didn't know the building could miss this point - could they not. The important thing is there was only one lunchroom where a soda machine sat.

According to witnesses - there was no one seen on the first floor when Truly and patrolman Baker immediately came through the door. They immediately went across the room and tried to first get the elevator, but quickly decided to take the stairs. The run of two inclines of stairs to get to the second floor could have seemed like the third floor to Baker.

6 minutes ago, Brad Milch said:

@John Butler

John, I can help fill Bill Miller a bit more in on those old Lancer discussions on Altgens 6 alterations in regards to the to the train of thought of the posters at the birth of the thread(s) and how the topic expanded as the thread(s) progressed. I trust this won't distract your thread, John. This make take me a while to get it all typed, so please bear with me & check back for updates. I should be done with it when I sign off at the bottom of the post.

First of all, some of the discussions may have originated at alt.jfk as well as Lancer. The two websites often featured similar discussions. I never miss an opportunity to refer back to the old Lancer because I feel what was done to the website was horribly wrong for the staff, their global readers and American free speech. Bringing back some of those topics, while not as good as having the original posters re-post them here at EF, helps fight back against the perpetrators a little bit (in my mind).

Any Lancer threads I was most likely posting in that involved the films and photos.