Bill Miller

That is a mystery - isn't it. Nor does anyone know when he went to the 2nd floor lunchroom. I believe Baker said that he saw someone move as he glanced through the glass of the outer door who was about to enter the second door into the lunchroom.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&relPageId=691&search=roy_edward lewis Is there anything other than his statement where he says he was standing inside the entrance during the shooting because that could be interpreted a couple of different ways. And while he said he knew Lee Harvey Oswald and that Lee was not with him - he says nothing about seeing Lee on the other side of the glass at the front entrance either.

It's been posted many times.

I can think of a worse place for someone to have their thumb than in their mouth. So perhaps your rants would be more fitting at ROKC.

Michael, Good point! What is interesting is that starting around 12:15PM - there were several people seen on the 6th floor. And immediately afterwards when Dillard took a photo of the entire 6th floor .... he captured the image of a man looking downward into the street below from the west-most 6th floor window. There were witnesses who saw these people on the 6th floor several minutes after the shots. If this is accurate, then if Oswald did the shooting, then he had time to break down the gun and leave the building with it. But yet we are told that Oswald left his rifle on the 6th floor to be found so he could deny having anything to do with the shooting - that makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever. Then there is some evidence that Davis Lifton pointed out whereas the rifle Lee owned was 36" long when assembled and yet the rifle that sits in the National Archives is 40.2" long when assembled. If I remember correctly ... the 40.2" long rifle was being sold after the 36" rifles were no longer available. Lifton went on to say that the CIA had bought three such rifles just months before the assassination, but they were never questioned about why they had a sudden need for three such poorly made rifles just months before JFK's assassination. Lee Oswald did not appear to me to be so stupid as to use his own gun which could be traced back to him with the idea that all he had to do is say he didn't shoot anybody. Nothing about Lee being a lone gunman at that point ever made any sense to me.

Good question!

The thing is that there were only a few people in the RR Yard at the time of the shooting. Two of those individuals was referenced by Lee Bowers. The work of Jack White and Gary Mack, along with Gordon Arnold's saying that a shot came by his left ear is evidence that there was one or two more people along the stretch of fence that Arnold stood in front of. My thoughts on the shots from the knoll: I believe that the area in front of Lee Bowers was where the first shot came from. Lee mentions a puff smoke or a flash of light at this location that caught his attention. This is the area of the fence that connected the walkway to the Underpass. It is also the same area where the men on the Underpass had seen smoke drift out from under the trees' If Mack and White's work is valid, which I think it is, then Badge Man fired a fraction of a second after the kill shot. I say this for several reasons .... 1 - It's something like .0017th of a second for a muzzle flash to occur. That is less than 1/18th of a second. So for Moorman to have captured the head shot with her camera - there should have been no muzzle flash because 3.6 Zapruder frames ran after the head exploded and before Moorman snapped her cameras shutter. 2 - Edna Hartman said to researcher Mark Oakes that she witnessed a furrow in the grass on the south pasture that led back towards the large tree above the walkway. Kellerman described the last two shots as coming over the top of one another. He compared them to a plane breaking the sound barrier .... Boom - Boom! That bullet must have missed all together in order to create a furrow in the ground much like one would see if a mole was tunneling just under the earth.

There was an employee of the TSBD who was in the vestibule on the first floor at the time of the shooting and there was no Oswald in there with him. I believe that Baker and TRuly told the truth about seeing Oswald on the 2nd floor.

Sorry Bart - I know you need certain things to have not happened to support your theory where I choose to stick to the witnesses.

That is correct, Paul. Even as Shelley and Lovelady were walking on the extension as the running woman (Calvery?) was coming towards them ... there is a police officer seen running down the extension towards the RR Yard. I think someone said that was Joe Marshal Smith. Of course by that time a call had gone out over the police radio for all available men to get up in the RR Yard to see what had just happened up there. At this link - http://www.prayer-man.com/tag/bill-shelley-tsbd/ - the very first video shows an officer running towards the RR Yard. An estimate of time was given by either Shelley or Lovelady. Upon hearing the shots. Before any outside pressures could some into play - Bill Shelley said in his signed 11/22/63 Affidavit that upon hearing the shots that he ran across the street where he met a crying woman named Gloria Calvery. In the testimony of Shelley, he said that he and Lovelady were only on the Island for less than a minute before walking down to the RR Yard where so many officers were moving towards that location. So ball park 25 - 30 seconds on the stairs post assassination - add another 60 seconds to go to the RR Yard. I believe Shelley said they stood in the RR Yard for another minute or two. Of course timing estimates in times of confusion and great stress are seldom accurate. So yes - it can be said in a general that sense the two men did accompany the many officers who merged upon the RR Yard, but that didn't mean they all got there at the same time like some people may think.

I have done that several times. I offered a slow motion clip of Patrolman Baker running by Roy Truly and towards the stairs. Truly said "but as I came back here" when talking about his moving from the intersection to a position closer to the stairs is where this clip picks up. It appears to me that Truly see's Patrolman Baker running by ....... and when the officer goes past him ..... I see Truly immediately turning around and start to move in the direction of the stairs. Mr. TRULY: I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect. I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me. But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. Truly continued: And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. There is your film analysis. So what film or photo evidence do you have that Patrolman Baker ran past the stairs so to go look behind the building? Ok - I don't expect that you know of any, so how about the names of any witnesses who said they saw the Patrolman run past the stairs on his way to go look behind the building? I am thinking you do not have any names either. So then explain to me how you discount what several independent witnesses saw based on what you think you would do had you of been Patrolman Baker and you wanted to get to the top floors where you believe shots may have come from. Seems to me that getting inside the building to reach an elevator or stairs to catch people trying to come down from the upper floors would be a logical thing to do. And considering that Patrolman Baker or Roy Truly didn't appear to be concerned that the press was rolling through with their cameras in hand ... it seems unlikely to me that they would have re-written Baker's movements and risk someone filming something to the contrary. But hey - that's just me.

Just thought seeing how people did see him run up the stairs and he was the first through the door with Truly and no one reported seeing him run around the building to look in the back ... that possibly to be first through the door that he actually did run up those steps.

Funny ... there were witnesses who saw Baker run up the stairs and none who said they saw him running to look around the back of the building.

Actually, Calvery said the President was almost in front of her ........

I started looking for Jack White's illustration of Toni Foster being 7' tall because I felt it demonstrated the problem of placing lines on a 2D image from a skewed view. Some may recall that Jack drew a line between two 14' lamppost at their mid-points. I could not find Illustration online, but it is in the book called "Assassination Science". Jack's point was that a very short (5') Toni Foster looked 7' tall because her head was touching the line he had drawn between the two lamppost. He was clueless as to the deception that skewed image had caused before claiming this was an example of the Zapruder film being altered. The same has occurred with what you have done in my view. You drew a line that you say represents Baker's path because his feet are hitting the ground on or near the line. You have not taken into consideration that you too are using a skewed view on a 2D image, thus Baker's feet are not really hitting the street where you have an elevated line, but rather his feet are hitting the pavement some distance beyond your line. This was why I asked that you note where on the curb Patrolman Baker's shadow makes contact with it. Try to consider how much further west Baker's shadow meets the curb compared to the woman's foot immediately to his right as she is about to reach the sidewalk. In this angled view it looks like they are almost going to touch each other, but in reality they are not that close. Alistair once mentioned to me in a PM that it looked as though Baker was going to plow into that women, but in reality there was much more space between the two than what it looks like from Darnell's position. I must remind you of the spacing of people as they seen in the Zapruder film and how shoulder to shoulder they appeared and yet the Bronson photo from a more straight-on view was taken - it proved that the people were much further apart from one another that the skewed view of Zapruder had made them appear. I have slowed the advancement of Baker's shadow and where it meets the curb easier to track. Next I show Roberdeau's scaled Map of the Plaza to show the stairs are not directly across the street as some may believe. Darnell's location is not shown. So what I am saying that while I understand your approach as I did the same thing many years ago as well - but it is terribly flawed. I have seen this too many times to ignore it and if you really wish to challenge what I am saying to you, then either consult someone skilled in Photogammetry or do as I have done many times in the Plaza and shoot photos from known photographer or filming locations and then again from a straight-on view and compare the two. You can get on the far side of Houston Street and find a line of sight that matched that of Darnell's and then take another photo from the south side of Elm Street across from where Baker parked his cycle. When I get to Dallas again - I will be happy to do it for you to demonstrate what I am saying.

Someone sure got it mixed up. The women may have been facing south, but certainly not on the south side of the street.

Whether Prudhomme ignores me or not .... I have the right to respond with an explanation to the question of whether I find it absurd to believe what was written in someones obituary should be accepted. So I do not see my response as trolling. I think if someone wishes to claim that I was "trolling" in my answer - then perhaps he or she should explain how it applies to the definition of trolling. " I try to accept someone at their word until I have reason to believe otherwise. We are talking about Calvery's orbit here, so if you think she placed false information in that orbit, then you have the right to call her on it. To accuse her of posting false information to someone's obituary without first asking her for the source of her information is absurd to me. " xxxxx2 trōl/ verb gerund or present participle: trolling 1. informal make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them. Perhaps this may be an example of trolling: " Are you by any chance related to a person by the name of Albert Doyle? He's the fellow James booted from this forum for posting a stream of non-stop nonsense. " So I not only have clarified my position to him, but also to the other members as well who read his question. If someone wishes to contact Linda Bambanini and ask her where she obtained the information that the Gloria Calvery she mentions was the same woman who was a witness to JFK's assassination and/or had followed Patrolman Baker up the stairs, by all means ask her because it's a fair question in my view.

I try to accept someone at their word until I have reason to believe otherwise. We are talking about Calvery's orbit here, so if you think she placed false information in that orbit, then you have the right to call her on it. To accuse her of posting false information to someone's obituary without first asking her for the source of her information is absurd to me.

I believe Linda was clear that no one knows exactly how many seconds passed since the shots were fired before Baker and Truly ran through the door and before Gloria Calvery entered the building. Whether it was 30 seconds with an additional 15 or more seconds before Calvery came onto the first floor .... it was a short amount of time. Zambanini claimed that she was proud of the research she had done on Calvery and you have not bothered to ask her for the source that allowed her to write in Calvery's orbit that Gloria followed Truly and Baker into the TSBD. So its a fact that Linda Zambanini wrote the orbit as much as it is a fact that you have no evidence that her remarks about Gloria's following Truly and Baker wasn't factual and true.

The Molina testimony I copied from a post that Linda Zambanini made. I don't recall you asking her if she was related to any banned members.

I would not be surprised that I posted my opinion about those two images no fewer than a couple of dozen times - review the threads or do a simple forum search. I am way beyond that nonsense at this point just as I thought you were as well.

Let not what the FBI interviewer who took Shelley's general statement interpreted it for you - - - - Let Bill Shelley in his WC testimony tell you. Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split. Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way. Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street. As I recall - Shelley and Lovelady went immediately to the Island - once there they observed Police running towards the RR Yard - and then decided to walk down that way to see what was going on.

Running woman was a lead that you failed to follow. You may wish to PM Linda Zambanini who wrote the orbit for Calvery. Linda said she was very proud of her research, so perhaps you may wish to inquire from whom she learned Gloria followed the Patrolman and Truly into the TSBD.

Sure thing .... It was Linda Zambanini that laid this all out in the past. I believe you were privy to her post at that time .... " Now that estimate of mine of her being in the lobby and Molina seeing her come in ~ 20-30 seconds after the shots, was probably compounded by Molina's testimony where he said: Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance. Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him? Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside. [granted he didn't see Baker enter] Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance? Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know. Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building? Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. [by this I assumed he then went in the lobby after that 20-30 secs] Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before you saw Truly go in? Mr. MOLINA. No. Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. [if Truly came in 20-30 secs after the shots as Molina says above, and we know Calvery was not far behind him - or Baker and him - and Molina says he SAW her "come in" - then I assumed, pretty logically I think, that Molina had to have followed Truly in, and he was then almost immediately followed in by Calvery. He says he saw her come in so he had to have gone in just after Truly and before her. Does that make sense? ] Mr. BALL. What did she say? Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent. Ok so, point well taken that we don't know exactly when he was in the lobby, but she being hot on Baker's heels she had to have been in the lobby too maybe 5-10 sec later - where Molina said he saw her "come in" . (I'm aware you don't believe Baker even went up the steps then...) As for the "other girl" he said she was "with" - that could've been Molina's assumption. She could have been any woman who came up the steps around that same time as Gloria and entered "with her". We see several women going up the steps in Darnell it could easily have been one of them. As I think it was Tommy pointed out, it doesn't mean they had to be pals or have run together from down near the Stemmons sign. We know that didn't happen - we only see one woman running behind Baker. And Molina goes on to say both of them were horrified, as if they shared the moment "together". They may have both been horrified - who wouldn't be - but that doesn't mean they were standing next to each other when JFK was shot - it was a collective horror. " I agree with what Linda said.

Your observation is flawed and has already been addressed. Baker's shadow is seen scaling the vertical wall of the curb just before the camera pans away and where it hits the curb appears to be well before the mailboxes.