David Josephs

Chris -

As you know I've been working on WCD298 and all of your great work augments that study.

I have a question about one of your calcs...

Shaneyfelt does say there is a 10" diff in the height of the recreation vehicle.. you then take 10" divide by 12" and .8333

then you have .833 x 18.3 (horizontal feet in 1 vertical foot) to get 15.249 the distance from the front bumper to JFK.

How does 10"/12" relate to horizontal distance when Shaneyfelt is talking about vertical distance...

also -

The 10" + 3.54" suggests the muzzle is that much higher than the sill? which in turn moves the intercept point using the same downward angles farther down Elm...

You believe because the boxes created a resting perch the muzzle is really 13.54 inches above the sill? It doesn't even appear that the window is open that much...

And now let's get to a conclusion statement - The shots described by WCD298 are basically the mathematical creation of a shot prior and post to account for 3 shots when in reality there were many more.

The MATH is used to move the limo down the street to 1)remove the Elm wide turn, 2) remove a first shot around 155, 3) to place a shot to JFK as he is going behind the sign rather than at 190 which in the extent Zfilm includes 48 and 16 fps speeds. He is seen covering his face by 207 so they simply place the front of the limo at 207 for one set of discussions while JFK's position is where the front of the limo hits 190? 3) there is or is not a shot at z313 which equates to a spot further down Elm and effectively removes the limo stop/pause and finally 4) the shot at 4+96 is z313 or completely made up so the math works?

Describing the scenario - a flurry of shots enters the limo prior to Hill leaving the Queen Mary and getting to the limo. The limo must be moving very slowly for him to reach it in only a few steps - at 11.2 mph he'd have to be a world class sprinter to make up the moving difference - Doesn't the NIX film basically prove a shot did not happen farther down Elm?

If the headshot does actually occur where WCD298 places it, the alterations to the film were much more involved than simply 48fps conversion

Chris, I'm sure you've mentioned this in an earlier post somewhere. But is it your opinion that Zapruder shot in slow motion (48 FB's) and that that film was altered at Hawkeye Works to bring it down to 18.3 fps?

Do you also feel that they made splices in the film such as the turn? And that they cropped the field of view at the bottom? Just wanted to make sure I knew where you (and perhaps David as well) stood on the film.

I seemed to remember a photo of you standing in the place Zaprider was. Did you take some test film of your own?

Recently I obtained one of the B&H Directors cameras and some film, and was interested in doing some tests as well.

-Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, it appears that some or all of Z was shot at 48fps. Take a look at post #21, I created the gif which now has 3x the amount of z-frames (progressive) for that particular span. Then, look at post#64, and I removed 2 of every 3 frames.

Based mostly on Doug Horne's work, I'd say Hawkeye Works would be a good candidate.

I refer to it as "selective splicing" for timing purposes. I believe the whole Houston St / Elm St turn was removed as a part of it.

More than likely enlarged and cropped.

Here is one example (shot on telephoto). Shot with B/H414.

The cars were moving much faster than 10-15mph.

The problem you'll probably run into is getting the Kodachrome/Ektachrome developed. I don't know of any labs that process this film type any more.

It would have had to be filmed at 48fps so there was enough source material from which to create the final product.

Your .9 ft from 161-166 calcs proving those 5 frames are continuous at 48fps is brilliant.

The question remains though Chris... if the last shot has the limo's rear bumper at 4+96 - is that the frontal head shot, a shot to JC, the Tague miss, ???

and if the fatal shot, how they make it appear it occurs up at z313 is simply amazing.

I am also of the opinion that the Altgens photo with Hill on the limo was not an Altgens photo... it bears no resemblance to the other photos he took and is cropped at the top right and carries the notation "Original Negative Lost"

Something very strange going on down there by yellow strip #3... I wonder if Altgens did actually get a photo of the final shot and this is from another camera... Seems to me there were a number of people filming that aren't accounted for and whose films, at 48fps, could be used for Muchmore, Towner and Nix... either way... yellow strip #3 is where it all happened...

DJ

Here is #7 with what is missing copped back in using Cabluck

Wow Chris... Well done. The easiest way to create an end product at 18.3fps is to cut down from 48fps, not try to add frames from 16fps. That the incline of Elm is exactly the same 18.3:1 ratio as the film speed per frame makes the math coordination much easier.

To create the illusion of constant speed - while testimony claims they almost stopped at the turn and most definitely slowed to a crawl around extant frame 300 one only need to watch the QT movie of the stable version BACKWARD which QT allows you to do easily. We can even see the limo speeding up as it moves backward towards Houston prior to z313. the Limo most definitely does not travel at a constant speed, yet somehow it is made to look as if it does... Cutting the right frames in the correct amount from 48fps will produce what we see.

Can you please relate the slow wide turn onto Elm which Truly describes and the speeds we see here... or does it provide no effect since it occurs prior to 133? I simply do not understand how that wide turn is hidden within Towner?...

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.
Mr. BELIN. All right.

Bell doesn't have it and neither does Towner... how dat Chris?

Here is one for you, Dave. Did you know there is a way to make a shot originating from behind the limo appear, to ear witnesses, to have originated from down near the Grassy Knoll?

Other than natural echoes? Pray, do tell.

As I understand it, that silent carbine from WWII doesn't make a sound and is accurate and deadly from quite a distance...

Wasn't you who brought up diversionary sounds like an actual firecracker?

DJ

Now Bob... you know I've been writing about this for years now. The following is one of the biggest load of crap offered. Not 12 feet from the supposed open-end of the barrel of this rifle at 120-150dB's and this man can claim to not only hear the bolt work and the shell hit the ground, but does so after 2 more of the same level sounds?

"I believe it came from above us" - Really people? and instead of screaming out the window - "He's up here" the run to the west windows to look at the RR Yard... hmmm.

I'm 100% with you Bob. The gunshot sounds on the motorcycle tape would have been LOUD - above anything else in DP that day.

As Castro said, a sniper would be farther away, hidden from sight and shooting from another building or location...

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. I didn't tell I think I hear anybody moving, you know.
Mr. BALL. But you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And shells on the floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Recently I was looking at the initial reactions to the shooting and where DPD officers and DSO sheriff's went first (not to mention the ATF agents who also stormed the TSBD)

We all know Curry and Decker both specifically say to send people to the overpass, the RR yard yet where does Officer Baker run and why?

SENATOR COOPER - I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. BAKER - I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - By "everyone" do you include you, too?
Mr. BAKER - No, Sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.
Mr. BELIN - You are pointing to either the first building, you are pointing to the School Book Depository Building, and the second one you are pointing to is the one across the street. When you heard this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there. 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Have Parkland stand by. Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker) I am sure it's going to take some time to get your man in there. Pull every one of my men in there. Dispatcher Dallas 1, repeat, I didn't get all of it. I didn't quite understand all of it. Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker) Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there. 12:34 142 (Patrolman C.A. Haygood) I just talked to a guy up here who was standing close to it and the best he could tell it came from the Texas School Book Depository Building here with that Hertz Renting sign on top. 12:36 260 (Sergeant D.V. Harkness) I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store.

Harness and Haygood... men with Sawyer and enablers of the TSBD story..

Your work Bob has always been of help... keep on Truckin'

DJ

Steve -

I think you will find the same story here as elsewhere... the Chain of evidence describes two separate and distinct paths for the pistol which finally gets entered into evidence.

http://ctka.net/2015/JosephsPistol.pdf addresses and illustrates the conflicts between the Hill to TL Baker story and the Barnes/Davenport/Doughty/Vincent Drain chain...

What they did try to say is that the casing matches the pistol and there was no way to accurately test the bullets since they were so badly smashed.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0153b.htm is a comparison where the WCR tries to convince us that a single groove qualifies as a match.

When we add in the bit about finding the shells and bus transfer 2+ hours after his arrest it becomes even harder to swallow... I hope my article helps clarify a few things about any tests that did or didn't happen and the pistol which mattered

DJ

Craig - you may find this revealing and interesting as well:

http://www.harveyandlee.net/Ruby/Ruby.html

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Go to the hospital – Parkland Hospital. Have them stand Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there. Have Parkland stand by.

12:30 Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. “Bill” Decker) Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there.

Mr. BAKER - I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - By "everyone" do you include you, too?
Mr. BAKER - No, Sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.

Guess you need pretty big hanging ones to contradict a direct order from the two top cops in the area at the time...
only to completely omit the lunchroom encounter on your same day affidavit and make the man tall, older and heavier...

"I had it..." ...(on good authority that the shots would come from the TSBD) ??? So rather than correct the broadcast and say over the radio that the TSBD appears to be the source of the shots... it seems everyone was streaming in to and out of this building that may or may not still have an assassin at large within it...

12:45 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On this building, it's unknown whether he is still in the building or not known if he was there in the first place.

Seems that Sawyer also heard that broadcast about the triple overpass:

Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.
Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?
Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building.

So the entire time no one is sealing off this building, the police and anyone else for that matter were allowed back into the TSBD, back up stairs to their offices 0 didn't seem real concerned about an assassin in the building.

Mr. Wesley FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

The whole episode of who was in and out of the TSBD between 12:30 and 1pm lead me to conclude that TSBD was a destination well before it was broadcast that the Triple overpass was the focus of the shooting and initial orders of investigation. Whether Baker continues on to Dal-Tex, I doubt very highly.The lunchroom was made up, yet the affidavit from that afternoon suggests Baker did what he wrote, and subsequently changed during his testimony.

OK, Chris, OK. I don't think any amount of logic or sane reasoning will convince you of anything otherwise. You continue on with your thread here.

I agree that Math proves results. But the only way it does that is if one's hypothesis is correct in the first place - Math just confirms things. What you're trying to do here - your hypothesis - is flawed so therefore no amount of Math will help.

What exactly is "flawed" Michael?

The concept that a film exists in the Archives which is currently in 9 pieces? That the 6+ second portion showing the assassination has nothing which identifies it as film #0183?

This is the Film Map of the supposed "unaltered" original... what part of this map convinces you this 30 foot side B of film which now contains over 45 feet of film - is an unaltered original?

Love that photo - while that may not be his father... that sure does look a bit too much like Shelley, in New Orleans, with Oswald and Cubans...

Now THAT would be something.. dontcha think?

Seems to me we have a perfectly good explanation in the FIRST AUTOPSY report seen by these men which talks about a fragment causing the hole.

given that this explanation and report are gone in favor of the Silly Bullsh!t theory... one wonders

Mr. Rankin:

Then there‘s a great range of material in

regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit

or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all

has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.

We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably

a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation

the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent,

since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in

the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the

right of the backbone, which is below the place where the

picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt

in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike

any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.

So that how it could turn, and --

Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went.in a

finger's length.

Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said

While that does make sense Jim... there is another explanation which is just as strong...

Cuba/Castro/Russia was a way to keep inquiries to a minimum and leverage others into cooperation.

IMO Hoover's FBI fabricated the Mexico City travel docs to hide where Oswald really was - with Odio in Dallas along with 2 members of a team he was trying to infiltrate.

It is virtually impossible to accept the FBI had no clue where Oswald was from Sept 24 until Oct 31... when Hoover sees the 10/10 "HENRY" cable he knows it's not true, he knows where his boy Ozzie is...

Sheepdipping Oswald would service him just as well if they were trying to get him deeper into the Cuban groups... It would also serve as a "STAY AWAY" warning to those that began looking.

Sorry Jim - but I think the Cuba story was a cover... and more in line with what Simpich writes - an internal intel matter - then to push the US into Cuba.

If that was the case - Cuba, not Vietnam, would have been first on LBJ's list.

The CIA wanted to run a county - all of it - and Cuba was not going to be the one... SE Asia on the other hand - had everything the MICC needed: Drugs, weapons, war, and distance.

The men in the Tramps photos and Abrahms, Doyle and Gedney are not the same people. Obviously - if we are thinking Hunt or Harrelson...

One set of Tramps was brought to Decker who let them leave while the three with arrest records claim to have been in jail with Ozzie over that weekend.

Bass, Wise, and the cast of characters make it very plain the men in these images are not the same as those "arrested".

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21791&page=17#entry300813 is the link to my post about what Harkness says about those taken off the train...

GB: Science stands on its own merit irrespective of authorship, literary devices employed to express it, and the like. Let's stay on topic by discussing the evidence presented.

Greg,

Here's my "science." Since this thread is about fragments, bones, and injuries to the head this is on topic. I made this - combining the so-called "mystery" photo with the back of the head photo.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxdm9ZalJTSWU3cms

Note - above link is an animated GIF that repeats; may take a moment to load.

From what I researched, bone shatters and bevels outward when an object like a bullet hits it on the opposite side. So I'm seeing beveling in the area that's circled. Am I wrong...or right? Is Speer? Is Mantik? Are you? We can work hard and try to come up with convincing results based on logic, but that's all we can do.

And just keep in mind that even so-called experts can be way off, people with a half a dozen degrees hanging on their wall. Witness Baden during the HSCA hearings when he couldn't even orient the mystery photo correctly during his presentation.

In my mind, the above GIF, combined with the Z film showing the sudden and rapid backward head movement, demonstrates a shot from the front.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I caught a glimpse in your article that you think the Z film is faked.

You do realize that a single 8mm frame is the size of your pinky nail? There's no way they could have faked that film. At the same time, that is the main reason why the film was banned from the public for 12 years - because it *did* show a shot from the front when Kennedy's body is slammed backward onto the seat.

Hi there Michael - nice work there...

With regards to other researcher's work... it is very hard to judge it while putting aside one's own work and conclusions in the process to be truly open minded. I also do not agree with much of what Pat concludes yet you cannot over look the amount of work and effort involved. Myers and Posner worked hard too, doesn't mean I agree and in fact we can find areas in which the truth was stretched to a breaking point.

Pat sees things his way and since there usually is not clear cut evidence to the contrary, he MAY be as right as any of us. Yet unless Mantik can be proven to have some ulterior motive, I have to go with the experts who spend their lives in a single area - especially something as difficult as anatomy. What it looks like to you and me is not the same as what an xray expert sees.. and of course there will always be another expert with the opposite view.

As for Harper... this is a bone found the following day after hundreds walked this area. It is found, imo, in a place that is not possible for what occurred. Whether dead center or slightly off, this bone is found in DP in a spot that corroborates that terrible lateral xray showing the front of JFK's skull gone, so Harper by necessity is placed to the front of the limo. Shot from the rear, front right bone gone... lies after lies...

It is only after Parkland do we get anyone discussing wounds forward of his ears. Ebersole's AARB testimony is very revealing as to how these xrays were created and under who's orders.

This brings me to the point I'd like you to consider... during an autopsy and the removal of the scalp - and we get this from the Dr's themselves, all that was necessary was to extend the existing tears and reflect the scalp - the testimony that the brain simply fell out is prime evidence that an autopsy of some sort, a craniotomy, must have either done or was in process prior to 8pm. Without cutting the connections between the brain and the body, as described below, brains don't "fall out"

Humes: To better examine the situation with regard to the skull, at this time, Boswell and I extended the lacerations of the scalp which were at the margins of this wound, down in the direction of both of the President's ears.

When extended in this manner and then compared to the image you posted of the cranial hole you can see that the scalp is reflected forward, not to the side, especially if the lacerations were BOTH extended to the ears.

I believe you have to move that wound farther back on his head to get the autopsy like lacerations and front folded scalp to make sense. I can't find it this second but am sure it was determined that the fold is almost straight forward over the forehead and eyes.

Does that make any different in the way you see it?

DJ

bump

Thought I'd revive this old thread, in light of new evidence revealed at the ROKC.

I'm a bit disturbed to see that the posts of members Bart Kamp and Randy Sorenson have been deleted in entirety.

Robert - had you seen this exchange with Wesley?

I am asking in a different thread, where Wesley is prior to the Darnell frames - he claims he's in the shadows and that Lovelady is below him and over to his right by the wall.

That he claims he not only stood there but didn't move and sees Lovelady and Shelley walk off to the RR yard... but specifically does not confirm Baker running past him...

Either he is forgetting Baker or ???

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL - A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir;

It has been brought it to my attention that I haven't really explained how the holes punched in the Hidell money order are to be decoded. Yes, I see that I am guilty of that. So I will explain it here. It's not difficult.

But first, for the record, the topic was first brought up on this forum when David Von Pein proclaimed that the "money order wasn't cashed" theory had been debunked. He and other LNers came to that conclusion when they notice that one Brian Castle had theorized that the holes were punched during the processing of the money order. They assumed that the holes were being used as a substitute for traditional bank stamps, and that this explained the absence of those stamps on the reverse side of the money order. As I will show, they are wrong.

Following are the front and rear sides of the money order:

You can see the tiny rectangular holes near the left end of the front of the money order.

I drew straight lines through the holes, both vertical and horizontal, so it would be easy to keep them in order. And also so I could label the meaning of each row, as you will see in a moment. Here is the reverse side of the money order with my lines added:

You can see that I have numbered some of the horizontal lines 0 through 9. A popular punch code used at the time was the Hollerith code, widely used for computer punch cards. Because the Hollerith code uses twelve rows, not ten, I had to add two extra lines, which labeled X and Y.

It's easy to read the code once that the rows are labeled. The first number is marked by the right-most vertical line. What you do is see where that line crosses over a hole. Unfortunately it's difficult to see that particular hole. It's also difficult to see the hole crossed over by the second vertical line from the right. For now, just trust me that these first two lines cross their respective holes at horizontal line 2. So the first two numbers are decoded as 22.

The next hole is easy to see. Look at the third vertical line from the right and see where it crosses its hole. It crosses at horizontal line 0. So that digit is 0, and so far we have 220.

Repeat this procedure for the other seven vertical lines to get the seven remaining digits. The fourth hole is also difficult to see. It is at horizontal line 2. With that we have 2202. The remaining holes are all easy to see. The fifth line from the right crosses its hole at horizontal line 1, so we have 22021. Continuing on, we end up with the following ten digits:

2202130462 or 2,202,130,462

This is precisely the same number that is printed on the front of the the money order. It is the money order number, the equivalent to a check number.

LNers may want people to believe that these holes are punched when the check is being processed, and that this somehow signifies that the money order was actually cashed. But that is simply not true. The holes merely duplicate what is printed on the front of the money order and has nothing to do with clearing of the check. The holes are punched at the same time the money order number is printed, before the money orders are even issued to post offices.

You may have noticed two more vertical lines located further to the left. The first crosses two holes and this pair represents the letter P. The last (leftmost) line crosses the horizontal line labeled "Y" and this represents the "-" (dash) mark. (You need to have access to a Hollerith code table to see these.) I haven't spent any time trying to figure out the meaning of these.

Finally, there are five round holes on the opposite half of the money order. At first I ignored them since five digits isn't sufficient to represent a number on a bank stamp. I thought perhaps they represented a post office routing number. But I have since spent more time on them and discovered that they actually represent the number 02145, which obviously refers to the $21.45 value of the of the money order.

So in summary, the ten rectangular holes represent the money order number and are punched when the money order is manufactured. The round holes represent the price/value of the money order and are punched when the money order is purchased.

I like to use the Hidell money order against LNers because it is extremely reliable evidence that Oswald was being framed as the shooter of the assassin's rifle. It's impossible for LNers to explain away how bank stamps can be missing from a canceled money order. But of course they will try.

The most unimpeachable evidence for the authentication of this PMO is the concurrently filled out and stamped stub which matches it and is retained in a book showing PMO #'s prior to and after the one used as evidence.

This was not only not offered, but has never been found. Like the Order for the rifle in the first place, only that order exists and only this PMO exists from a continuous string of numbered documents.

So even before we bother with the bona fides of this document and the convoluted/tortured way it comes into being, it has no connection to its origin - the book of PMO's.

If no other "cancelled thru the FRB system" PMO in that book can be found - how can it be said our PMO is authentic?

What follows must, by definition, be activities designed to allow this PMO to be created, correctly... Please let's not be so foolish as to believe the USPS was not helping our intelligence agencies create "documents" which would check out as "authentic" within their own little world... since other orders or similar SOP are never reviewed - authenticity is a self fulfilling feature of the Evidence.

Harry Holmes' theater of the absurd is the basis for this nonsense.

So I see this as the simple acquisition of

• the Klein's stamp (check - Friday night),
• the Dallas GPO Stamp (check - Holmes is at the GPO),
• a Blank book of PMO's (check - they're at the GPO),
• access to the machinery of the USPS (check),
• 1st Bank of Chicago processing stamp (ooops - Wilmouth not only didn't give that up but tells us the deposit info he saw does not match the Waldman exhibit),
• time and confusion (check)
• cooperation of USPS expert in the processes and procedures for PMO's. (check - DVP links to Marks' bona fides via Scully)
• agencies cooperating to generate the evidence required to keep us from WWIII (check - FBI USPS USSS all create intertwined reports that double speak their way thru this critical evidence)
• someone to retrieve the PMO who would also disappear into history (check Robert Jackson - Richard Jackson of the NOLA USPS testifies as does Robert Jackson a Dallas News photographer... just not the man charged with entering the Archives at 9pm on a Sat and acquire the one item which connects the payment and delivery of the assassination rifle to the accused.. in TX where he could have paid cash for any weapon he wanted - uh, right)

All the debating in the world will not produce the one item that MUST EXIST for this item to be real.

Not only do we not have it, but it and the book were never offered as evidence at any time - nor can I seem to find a question put to Holmes related to the PMO book, stub

Harry Holmes:

In those days, postal money orders were issued in a book of paper money orders which, when you bought a money order, the clerk put the amount and the date, then you had a template that you put on that tore off at $10, not more than $15, or whatever. The clerk then ripped that off and handed it to the customer while the stub was retained which matched the money. All this was to be filled out in your own handwriting.

It wasn’t ten minutes that they hollered, “Eureka!” They had the stub!

I called it in immediately to the chief on the open line to Washington and said, “I’ve got the money order number that Oswald used to buy this gun, and according to the records up there, they had shipped it to this box that he had rented at the main office in Dallas at that time, which he later closed and opened another at the Terminal Annex because it was closer to the School Book Depository.”

So he said, “Well, we’ll run that right through the correlators or whatever they do up there.” In about an hour, he called back and said, “We’ve got it! Both the FBI and the Secret Service labs have positively identified the handwriting as being that of Oswald.”

Mr. BELIN. So what happened?

Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95---$21.45 excuse me, and that the shipping---they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.

So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.

I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.

Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct money order or not.

To round it out - the EXPERT who was so instrumental with one Mail order weapon appears to know his limitations and steers clear of the US MAIL ORDERED pistol...

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle?

Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and matched the original money order was number 2--202--130--462, issued at the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

If Oswald did not purchase postal money order 2,202,130,462 on March 12, 1963, then how did this postal money order become an item of evidence?

Need to ask Harold Marks and Robert Jackson..

With the information SS Chief Paterni gave based on the PMO stub which Holmes claims was found and which gives the # of the PMO.

Without that book of PMO's - gone; the stub - gone; the person who Holmes claimed found it - gone, and what transpired at the Archives with "computers being warmed up" well before anyone was supposedly even sent to the Archive.

Marks later confirms that in an audit the PMO amount paid is matched to the FRB documentation of how much was paid to reconcile any overpayments related to fake PMO's.

So faked routing numbers aside - all that was needed was to audit the FRB payment pack to Klein's for that PMO...

Like so many items of evidence which would ice the case against Oswald - neither the PMO matching stub, or any documentation other than Kleins misdated and mismatched deposit from that day offers any corroboration for this piece of paper going thru the Fed Res Banking system.

This PMO book, like McWatter's transfer book which would place these items of incriminating evidence into context - do not exist, nor are there any records to confirm these books were either in Dallas or on McWatter's person... all we have is the evidence, nothing exists to corroborate it.

So even though Holmes tells the "Chief" that morning that the PMO would be in DC not KS, the SS and USPS POI's are still focused on KS until just before 7:55pm Central time or 8:55pm EST.

Except it is not until 10:10pm, over an hour later, that the PMO is "recovered" on begins it's journey. There are at least 4 different "FINDINGS" of this PMO and not once piece of corroborating evidence

Interesting Larry,

My question is what did Marina accomplish if she was somehow guided and connected to Russian Intel?

I see the Paine connections, the Dulles/Quaker connections and getting Oswald into Russia for intel of ANY kind - which our boys were starved to learn.

But Marina. What do you think about CE129 - her July 19, 1961 "date of issue" birth certificate in Russian - when she was already in the US by then... ??

I see what you're saying now...

With regards to the stub - if that is the central point of evidence which connects the PMO to reality, which it does since process marks can easily be faked but the other part of a form which mirrors the PMO cannot - not within a book, which is why we also never see the bus transfer book and why the master records for McWatters' transfer books at the bus station office are also gone - IOW, there is no proof McWatters had THAT BOOK, only that stamp.

So within a book of continuous #'s the stub would be very hard to fake... the PMO is relatively easy.

With regards to the long and twisted story of the rifle... we find yet again that SOP never applies to the incriminating evidence against Ozzie. It is always the exception.

As I continue to say and write - The Evidence IS the Conspiracy. I have yet to find an area where it is not.

It seems to me that this is "conspiracy logic." One becomes so wedded to the notion of a conspiracy (or, conversely, a non-conspiracy) that every item of evidence, or even the absence of evidence, becomes proof of the conspiracy.

It seems to me that the evidence is not the conspiracy. The conspiracy (or lack thereof) is in the presuppositions one brings to the evidence.

In itself, the "missing" stub is evidence of nothing at all. I feel sure that the reaction of almost everyone who didn't have a vested interest in the matter would be along the lines of, "Well, once they had the money order, the stub probably didn't seem important."

But now, 53 years later, the absence of the stub becomes a "central" piece of evidence for the conspiracy. The stub is missing, but the money order itself is not, because the money order could more easily be "faked." A postal money order with LHO's handwriting and a File Locator Number imprinted on it would be easier to fake and plant in the Federal Records Center than a Postal Record stub in the Dallas post office? It appears to me that the stub would be exceedingly easy to fake - it contains nothing the money order does not, and does not contain most of what the money order does. (And, lest we forget, the File Locator Number is not proof the money order was not faked and was duly processed, which might seem the logical inference; rather, it is proof of how clever the conspirators were, although they did overlook the need for those pesky bank stamps.)

Conspiracy logic. It makes my head hurt. There may well have been a conspiracy, but it must be proven by those items of evidence that actually point toward a conspiracy - not by forcing every item of evidence, or even the absence of evidence, into the conspiracy mold, regardless of whether it actually fits.

As a native Arizonan, it has been my moral obligation to buy and sell a number of handguns and rifles over the years. In my living room, in someone else's living room, out of car trunks, at swap meets and in other places where this might be impossible in a more highly regulated state. (In 1973, I bought for a mere $75 a pristine Remington 30.06 with an excellent Weaver scope that would have made a lovely assassination weapon.) In these informal transactions, which are always 100% cash, I don't recall anyone - seller or buyer - ever asking to see any identification. There is usually some sort of half-assed bill of sale, just so the buyer can show the gun isn't stolen. Putting on my conspirator hat for the moment, it seems to me that if I wanted to frame LHO with a rifle, a purported cash transaction in Texas or Louisiana and a dummy bill of sale planted among his personal effects would have done the trick without any of the risks of the Rube Goldbergian conspiracy hypothesized by Armstrong. Why, just to establish that LHO had purchased the rifle found on the sixth floor, would sane conspirators have concocted such a clumsy conspiracy? (According to conspiracy logic, of course, the answer is: It doesn't matter why they did - they did. But it does kind of matter why they did, if you are insisting on a conspiracy that seems to make no sense at all.)

Faking the money order.png

The Stub, from which the PMO is discovered and at one time was attached - is the very thing that gives the PMO any initial credibility. To then claim not to have this item breaks the chain of evidence. The PMO then requires other forms of authentication. When that cannot occur due to conflicting evidence, that item cannot be authenticated or regarded as "real evidence". It's worthless. Only a dead defendant and no trial changes the need to authenticate evidence. you can look at RFK's case for how the LAPD treated evidence and witnesses with a trial and defendant ...

Why, just to establish that LHO had purchased the rifle found on the sixth floor, would sane conspirators have concocted such a clumsy conspiracy? (According to conspiracy logic, of course, the answer is: It doesn't matter why they did - they did. But it does kind of matter why they did, if you are insisting on a conspiracy that seems to make no sense at all.)

Your question was answered over 50 years ago Lance -

The truth asks you devote your time and attention to the study of what was left behind... Arlen Specter only asks that you trust the Warren Commission Commissioners, the FBI, the work they did and the conclusions they offered. Independent lawyers like Salandria and Lane saw it differently from the start.

"I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message. Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination. People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.

"The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by* promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but to repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy. We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down."

Wondering "Why" about the thoughts and actions of others is a dead end and even doubly troubling when dealing with intelligence based activity.

"why" is a point of view... freedom fighter or terrorist

what actually happened that day and how it was covered up is a singular truth... from start to finish it only happened one way.

Though that one way has been woven into a complex fabric of lies and evidence. You can't just pull a thread and it all unravels...

You may want to read some of Larry Hancock's books if you haven't. Or a bio of some of the key intel players like Angleton (Lisa Pease wrote a great two parter on him) and Helms and Dulles, Bundy and Harriman and scores of others. It's as if you forget what was going on at the time - that all the intrigue and murder and spying and Cold War was meaningless when in fact it was everything to some of the most dangerous people on the planet.

They didn't just take 1963 off, sit back and watch.

Super Pacs are a direct result of unchecked Military Industrial Congressional Complex power. Industry buys Congress to support the military which fuels the desires of the industries feeding them...

How can we spend more than the next ten nations combined, yet still have a Military that is in need of such repair?

-----------------------------------

Fingerprint dust I believe and it is showing more reddish than normal as I tried to bring out markings and writing.

There were a few different bags created that day and not soon after... gets quite confusing but bottom line there was not an opportunity for Oswald to have made that bag at any time.... let alone get it to the Paines and get a rifle in it.

So if I understand this correctly, the rifle that Oswald supposedly hid on the 6th floor after firing it was originally said to be a Mauser. Later changed to an MC. But wasn't Oswald already linked to an MC (supposedly ordered from Klein's)? Where would he supposedly have gotten a Mauser?

Oswald likely never had either one. Because Marina first said that she never saw a scope on any rifle.

What Armstrong, Jospehs, and Moyer, and Jesus, and Gallagher are all saying is that the connections between Oswald and the MC rifle are all created up after the fact.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy... Alyea's evidence has been attacked and discounted as an and all REAL EVIDENCE (which sadly winds up being the witnesses statements - the single most unreliable source of info) yet in this case, we see wherever there are conflicts with the physical evidence we begin to see shadows of what actually happened, where people actually were etc...

Ron -

Many have thought the 7.65 Mauser to be in this paper bag. I think these other images confirm that not being possible...

Years ago, when GMack used to still email me and discuss the case with me, he sent me the transcript of Montgomery's oral history which claimed he was holding a Venetian blind in the bag...

and here are a few to compare

David J.,

The reason the PMO issue is important (not a distraction) is because it has a short learning curve and is easy to understand.

You're kidding, right Sandy?

I don't know why you ask that, David. No I'm not kidding. It's very easy to understand that an unprocessed PMO could not have bought a gun. Compare that statement to the following:

There is no evidence Kleins ever had C2766 to ship in March in the first place other than a list of 100 rifles for which not a single other rifle has EVER been found - only C2766. There is also nothing to refute the locations the FBI claimed did not sell the rifle even though as we see below, 2766 appears in a shipment in June to Empire Wholesale. As we come to learn - there were no rifles without prefixes in the 100 rifle shipment claimed to go to Kleins so to assume these 1300 rifles did not have a letter prefix appears to be quite a stretch.

In addition, SOP for Rupp and Crescent is to accumulate orders and then instruct Rupp to remove rifles and prepare them to ship when enough orders are ready to go from Kleins. The Hidell Order of C20-T750 being shipped in March and recorded on the microfilm with 900+ other orders would have to be part of a larger # of shipments of C20-T750 orders, fulfilled by any one of the other 99 rifles.

If this was going on for all C20-T750 orders - a $19.95 36" TS carbine being replaced with the larger 40" FC rifle then surely ALL C20-T750 orders fulfilled after Feb 22 would have shipped one of these rifles. The FBI could shut the door on the entire matter by showing Kleins record of doing the same thing with all their C20-T750 orders... yet not one is ever seen, ever offered and not one of the 99 rifles has EVER been found.

which makes my eyes glaze over.

I understand the statement "there is no evidence Klein's ever had C2766 to ship in March in the first place." And that would be compelling if I understood the situation well enough to know that there truly was no C2766 rifle to ship. But that looks a lot more complicated than this one statement: "There are no bank stamps on the PMO, and this proves it wasn't processed." All I need to be convinced of beyond that is that bank stamps really were required. And the documented regulations for that are short and easy to read as well. Then you're done. It literally takes less than five minutes to understand. (If it seems more complicated than that in the forum, that's only because we have a lawyer making it more complicated than it really is.)

I see nothing easy about the PMO issue once you throw Holmes' story into the mix, or the conflicting reports as to where and when it was found.

So don't throw it in... it's not necessary.

Let's see if I can recap:

During the course of his day, March 12, 1963 Oswald kept detailed records of the projects he worked upon for JCS.

His timesheet shows no breaks prior to 10:30am - the time of the Kleins envelope postmark. In fact, there is no time during that day when Ozzie can take care of this errand.

All the USPS reports state that the PMO, if real, would have been purchased in the morning of March 12 while Ozzie is at work.

Plus, does it make sense to microfilm the envelope and not the PMO enclosed inside?

That's another easy thing for people to grasp. But it's a little problematic because people are known to cheat on time sheets.

On page 14 of this folder http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/34791we get a report from LH Stephens USPS Inspector in charge who claims the same thing as Holmes, that

"a check was made of the issued stubs of the Dallas office from March 1 through March 13 and only one money order in this amount was found"

IOW we should see a PMO stub for $21.45 from the Dallas office as definitive proof that THAT PMO was purchased on that date by A. Hidell and made out to Kleins - but we don't ever get to see it.

Another easy thing to understand. But not seeing the stub does not mean it doesn't exist.

The item of evidence which appears in numerous reports as being found and leading to the recovery of the PMO, is not in evidence and Holmes can't remember the name of one of his own clerks who found it...

Uh, right .

I see what you're saying now...

With regards to the stub - if that is the central point of evidence which connects the PMO to reality, which it does since process marks can easily be faked but the other part of a form which mirrors the PMO cannot - not within a book, which is why we also never see the bus transfer book and why the master records for McWatters' transfer books at the bus station office are also gone - IOW, there is no proof McWatters had THAT BOOK, only that stamp.

So within a book of continuous #'s the stub would be very hard to fake... the PMO is relatively easy.

With regards to the long and twisted story of the rifle... we find yet again that SOP never applies to the incriminating evidence against Ozzie. It is always the exception.

As I continue to say and write - The Evidence IS the Conspiracy. I have yet to find an area where it is not.

I don't know. While I believe Roger Craig may have been telling the truth about a good number of things, he certainly could never have read "7.65 Mauser" stamped on the barrel of an Argentine Mauser; at least, not one direct from the factory anyways. It is possible someone acquired an Argentine Mauser and stamped "7.65 Mauser" on the barrel themselves.

Did you post this Robert?

David J.,

The reason the PMO issue is important (not a distraction) is because it has a short learning curve and is easy to understand.

You're kidding, right Sandy?

I see nothing easy about the PMO issue once you throw Holmes' story into the mix, or the conflicting reports as to where and when it was found.

Let's see if I can recap:

During the course of his day, March 12, 1963 Oswald kept detailed records of the projects he worked upon for JCS.

His timesheet shows no breaks prior to 10:30am - the time of the Kleins envelope postmark. In fact, there is no time during that day when Ozzie can take care of this errand.

All the USPS reports state that the PMO, if real, would have been purchased in the morning of March 12 while Ozzie is at work.

Plus, does it make sense to microfilm the envelope and not the PMO enclosed inside?

On page 14 of this folder http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/34791we get a report from LH Stephens USPS Inspector in charge who claims the same thing as Holmes, that

"a check was made of the issued stubs of the Dallas office from March 1 through March 13 and only one money order in this amount was found"

IOW we should see a PMO stub for $21.45 from the Dallas office as definitive proof that THAT PMO was purchased on that date by A. Hidell and made out to Kleins - but we don't ever get to see it.

The item of evidence which appears in numerous reports as being found and leading to the recovery of the PMO, is not in evidence and Holmes can't remember the name of one of his own clerks who found it...

Uh, right .

I am heartened by the fact that I have now had an exchange involving several emails with my contact at the Postal Museum. I sent him a photo of the money order itself to clarify what I was talking about. This may go nowhere, but librarians can be some of the most helpful people on earth and it's clear that he is more than just some unhelpful website monitor. There is or was a guy who was clearly the acknowledged expert on the historical aspects of postal money orders and wrote several articles; I am hoping my email finds its way to him, but I don't know whether he is still alive. I am not going to weigh back in on this topic (translation: I am not going to keep beating my head against the wall of the rabbit hole) unless and until I learn something definitive - but I will weigh back in even if the Postal Museum responds, "My God, this is astounding! The money order is a blatant fake! Can we get wholesale discount on 500 copies of Harvey and Lee?"

I'm sure we'll be able to get you a good deal on those books...

http://ctka.net/2015/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf is a link to a timeline I compiled from the various sources of Evidence on the PMO. By putting these events into their proper perspective we can see the dual lines of the FBI, SS and USPS Inspectors as they find this PMO a number of times throughout Saturday

http://ctka.net/2015/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf is a link to the full analysis of this evidence. Page 54 has the FBI report on Wilmouth the 1st Nat'l Bank's VP who tells us about this deposit and provides subtotals for the tapes which are not reflected in Waldman's evidence. The deposit dated 2/15/63 matches the tapes from 3/13/63 yet does not jive with what Wilmouth says is in this deposit.

You see, while this thread shows how difficult it is to pin down evidence related to the PMO it distracts from the real issue - there is no evidence Kleins ever had C2766 to ship in March in the first place other than a list of 100 rifles for which not a single other rifle has EVER been found - only C2766. There is also nothing to refute the locations the FBI claimed did not sell the rifle even though as we see below, 2766 appears in a shipment in June to Empire Wholesale. As we come to learn - there were no rifles without prefixes in the 100 rifle shipment claimed to go to Kleins so to assume these 1300 rifles did not have a letter prefix appears to be quite a stretch.

In addition, SOP for Rupp and Crescent is to accumulate orders and then instruct Rupp to remove rifles and prepare them to ship when enough orders are ready to go from Kleins. The Hidell Order of C20-T750 being shipped in March and recorded on the microfilm with 900+ other orders would have to be part of a larger # of shipments of C20-T750 orders, fulfilled by any one of the other 99 rifles.

If this was going on for all C20-T750 orders - a $19.95 36" TS carbine being replaced with the larger 40" FC rifle then surely ALL C20-T750 orders fulfilled after Feb 22 would have shipped one of these rifles. The FBI could shut the door on the entire matter by showing Kleins record of doing the same thing with all their C20-T750 orders... yet not one is ever seen, ever offered and not one of the 99 rifles has EVER been found.

The PMO is a distraction - part of the minutia Salandria warned us about. Since Oswald's Jagger time card shows he was at work all day the 12th, and there are no records from the USPS that a PMO stub was left behind that matched to the Hidell PMO as Holmes claims - all the USPS and FBI had to do was show the USPS record of that PMO... but that never happens...

We are expected to take the word of the FBI and Harry Holmes - both of which have shown their proclivity to alter, remove and add evidence as they see fit.

Page 29:

Rupp is the only person in this story who sends “Crescent-to-Klein’s” order info to Feldsott in NYC after shipment. For Feldsott to have order info for a June 18, 1962 shipment, Rupp or some other rifle dealer needs to have completed an order and sent it to Klein’s. Rupp offers no such evidence while the Century Arms to Empire Wholesale Sporting goods order of June 29, 1962 had a “2766” Carcano in the shipment. Amazingly none of the 1300 rifles sent from Canada have the letter prefix – whether this is “C”2766 cannot be known.

WCD881 p67 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277&search=rupp#relPageId=70&tab=page