David Josephs

Lance -

Looks like you're reading off my timeline http://www.ctka.net/2015/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf - yet you leave out so much. Why, for example would SS Chief Paterni need to issue and order at 8:30pm 11/23 to find the PMO when Holmes had found it by lunch and the SS also finds it in Kansas City?

Don't these two reports contradict each other and the Holmes story where he uses the wrong magazine, wrong ad and wrong amounts to find the correct stub - and when found we do not record or keep the stub or the name of the person who found it...

Maybe get off the island and look into the actual case itself rather than spewing postal regulations?

Like so many who only look at one tiny fraction of a topic - your side trip thru Money Order Law does not address the simplest of evidentiary questions

In the report of Mr. Wilmouth, First National's VP, he describes finding 2 instances of a $21.45 entry on the Klein's deposit tapes from March 13 when there are 8 on these tapes

as well as amounts on the deposit that do not match to the Waldman exhibit.

Please point out the $1536.11 package group, and the $6,178 group total. I see $3804.67 and $9992.43 and the wrong date of Feb 15, 1963.

No vague references to anything Lance... just more and more evidence of the creation of that PMO by Marks, Jackson and the SS...

Keep looking Lance... I always thought the first rule of lawyering was not to ask questions you didn't already have the answers to ??

Where does it state that Cadigan 11 is anything but a copy of a copy? And this copy is missing all the impact and bleed thru writing because it was photocopied on top of another piece of paper.

$21.45 is an "impact" mark like "138 4159796" which can be seen from the opposite side of the paper yet for some reason the $21.45 cannot. the "138..." is obviously much less deep and dark as "21" is yet the 21 does not show thru.

The extremely heavy initials from 11/23 can easily be seen on the reverse when no paper is placed on top of it when copying.

There also appears to be a rectangle which encompasses the "PAY TO and FROM" box and all the other PMO data.

Any Idea why a purchase at the (G)eneral (P)ost (O)ffice would be mailed from a different zone or how Ozzie had the time to get it there and back to work?

"TEX 12" is not "G.P.O."

in addition David... The HSCA finally did a handwriting analysis on these items (despite the FBI concluding on 11/22 the PMO was written by Oswald per Holmes) Except there is a HUGE caveat when experts make determinations about handwriting... they use ORIGINALS which include the pressure applied and other minute characteristics which are lost on copies.

Additionally, the HSCA experts themselves describe how a "copy/paste" can accomplish a forgery...

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol8/html/HSCA_Vol8_0168b.htm is #29 the Xeroxed PMO from which a handwriting determination was to be made.

29. Xerox of Klein's money order

Limitations on the examination (71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies. Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction. In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies. A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make one fraudulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method. (72) Document examiners only render a qualified or conditional opinion when working from copies. They stipulate that they have to examine the original before a definite opinion will be made. (73) Because of problems with the following documents, no definite opinion can be rendered: (74) Item 18, a halftone copy of a photograph of the original document. This is at least a third generation copy and is not suitable for comparison. (A halftone copy consists of very small dots and not continuous lines.) (75) Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a second generation copy has the defects of both processes.

Maybe Dave can take a second and explain this: and how these two reports mesh with Holmes finding the PMO sat morning.

Thanks Dave

DJ

Besides - it doesn't actually LOOK like his handwriting

When I examine the PMO under magnification, you can clearly see the words Kleins and Sporting had been erased and re-written, and or written in pencil not pen.

Wrong again, Scott. What you're seeing is merely the bleeding through of the ink from the other side of the money order (as a result of the FBI applying liquid to the M.O. to check it for fingerprints). Fortunately, however, Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 was taken BEFORE the liquid was applied, so we see no bleed-thru at all here....

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0152a.htm

David J.,

Where are you seeing NINE items for $21.45 in Waldman No. 10? I sure don't see nine such items.

I had highlighted all the areas and added more info but cannot get it uploaded so here is the generic one with green arrows pointing to the $21.45 entries...

There are 8, not 9 $21.45's on this deposit. Wilmouth claims there were only 2 $21.45's on the deposit which totaled $6178 with a packaged total of $1536.11 yet on this deposit, that package totals $3807.31 which is added to the $9992.43 and $28.24 for the grand total.

Like the 10 packing slips from Waldman in March - this is a deposit for Feb 15 not March. Another simple bait and switch well hidden until the docs are put in one place and compared.

DJ

Aren't both amounts $13, 827.98?

I was coming back to that... It conflicts with what Wilmouth says was on the Deposit. He also mentions a $6,178 total and only 2 - $21.45 items included in a $1,536.11 "package.

Those amounts do not match the detailed list with 9 - $21.45 items. And the $13K deposit is dated 2/15/62... despite what Waldman claims.

I was talking about closed loop corroboration. I contend that this only item of Kleins evidence which ties it all together is a forgery to account for the 100 rifles Kleins never got including C2766

As a result of the bad copies, something obvious appeared. Where all the #'s where, there was no "paper noise" yet everywhere else there was. Parts of the lines are missing where all these #'s are written in...

this and only this piece of paper connects C2766 with V836 as handwritten on the Order Blank.

And a closeup - This is why Scibor was so reluctant to talk to anyone during HSCA calls...

All Mr DVP need do is show us one other Order Blank, Copy of Order Blank, receipt of shipment, or an actual rifle listed above.

Supposedly 100 40" FC rifles as described by 10 packing slips which were involved in the initial shipment of 5200 rifles to Harborside from Italy while being provided as evidence twice... once by Waldman in March 1964 as evidence of the Feb shipment... and by Louis Feldsott on Nov 22, 1963.

Amazing, right?

A step further... the writing on these slips and on this ledger is very similar, no?

Yes.. Sandy... Sorry Sandy, I was also replying to a Randy on Facebook.... my bad.

There is a 11/24/63 report - dubious as it looks - from Pinkston

The coupon was created with an attempt at closeness

It was dated Feb yet claimed to be March after the PMO was rec'd. And you'll notice the amounts do not match...

What specifically is the "order" anyway? Is it the coupon cut out from the magazine? The money order? Both?

The "order letter" that Chief Jesse Curry refers to in his hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23 is CE773, which is the microfilm of the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine. That's the microfilmed document that was the basis for the FBI's findings that the "order letter" had Oswald's writing on it. That order form, of course, doesn't have the $21.45 figure on it either. Nor does it have $12.78 on it. It has $19.95 on it. (Shall we dance some more over those three figures?)

David, can you write a quick summary for me so that I can understand what happened. I'll write one up right now to give you an idea of what I want:

1. The FBI has the serial number, C2766. (I'm not sure how they got that, but I'll try to understand that later.)

2. The FBI guys search the Kleins microfilm for seven hours and find what they THINK they are looking for... an order with C2766 printed on it. (Even though it wasn't)

3. The order is dated March 20 (now we're talking about the money order, right?) for $21.95.

4. The FBI authenticated Oswald's handwriting.

5. They discover they had the wrong order. (But then how did they authenticate Oswald's handwriting??)

David, I don't know how to fix the above with your solution to the problem. You say they were searching for an order with the wrong price. But I thought they were searching for an order with a given serial number, C2766, not with a given price.

1. The FBI did, indeed, have the serial number. (They had the rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday, you know. So why would you be surprised they knew the serial number? And even if they didn't have the rifle themselves, the FBI could have simply telephoned the DPD and gotten the number from them at any time on Nov. 22....couldn't they?)

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. The Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" invoice is found (via what would soon become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides all the pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [Money Order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of Waldman No. 7--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the "Waldman No. 7" invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In addition to the internal Klein's invoice (Waldman No. 7), the FBI also found the "order letter" (as Curry called it), which is CE773. They quickly determined that the writing on the order form was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In short, there was no "wrong order". Somebody just wrote down or transmitted to somebody the wrong purchase price after the discovery of Waldman No. 7. But even though some officials had the wrong price, there were others who knew the correct price of $21.45 for the Hidell rifle order, because we find the correct figure being written in two separate reports (connected with the discovery of the money order) authored by both the FBI and the Secret Service on November 23 -- CD75 and CD87.

Also see:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Thanks David. I appreciate your effort.

I am going to keep your alternate explanation and make improvements, additions, and corrections as needed. You can always correct me if I am wrong, as anybody else can.

Alternate Explanation for Incorrect Rifle Information Being Reported

Based on David Von Pein's Post 116 in this Thread

Version 1 Date: 2/21/16

1. The FBI has the Carcano rifle in their possession at 11:45 PM CST on Friday the 22nd, from which they get the serial number C2766.

2. The FBI discovers from a gun dealer in Dallas that Italian surplus WW2 rifles were being distributed by Crescent Firearms in New York City. This leads the FBI to Klein's in Chicago after finding out that Crescent had sold the "C2766" rifle to Klein's.

3. Klein's records are searched and the "C2766" Internal Invoice is found (what would become "Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7"), which provides pertinent information about the sale of Italian rifle No. C2766 for $21.45 to one A. Hidell of Dallas, Texas (via "M.O." [money order]) on March 20, 1963 (which is the date the FBI goes with, instead of the date stamped at the very top of invoice--March 13, 1963--which was the date Klein's put the Hidell order through their cash register, as William Waldman explained in his Warren Commission testimony; the March 20 date was, of course, the date the rifle was shipped to Hidell/Oswald).

   In addition to the internal Klein's Internal Invoice, the FBI also found on microfilm the "Order Letter" (as Curry later called it), which is CE773. The Order Letter is the order form clipped by Oswald out of the Feb. '63 American Rifleman magazine, and the envelope in which it was mailed.

   The FBI quickly determined that the writing on the Order Letter was that of Lee Harvey Oswald.

   [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

   Internal Invoice Information: 3/13/63 receipt date; 3/20/63 processing & shipping date; $19.95 rifle cost; $21.45 total cost; C2766 serial number; paid by money order; "W/ 4X SCOPE"

   Order Letter Information: Hidell's handwriting; Hidell's address; $19.95 rifle price.

4. Somebody connected with the discovery of the Internal Invoice must have transmitted the wrong purchase price to other FBI personnel ($21.95 instead of $21.45), which led to confusion when the FBI and Secret Service began searching for the money order that was used to pay for the rifle.

5. In a hallway press conference on the night of Nov. 23, Chief Jesse Curry refers to the Order Letter. [question: what Order Letter information does he report?]

6. ??? [questions: when did the press get the $12.78 price and 3/20/63 order date information? what was the $21.95 I had in my list... I forget... was that reported by the press as well?]

7. According to FBI report CD75, on Nov. 23, the following information was received from the VP of Klein's's bank.

   -- On Mar. 15 1963, Klein's had deposited $13,827.98 in its bank. The deposit included a $21.45 postal money order.

   -- On Mar. 16 the bank had sent the $21.45 PMO to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. It would have been received by the FRB on Mar. 18.

8. According to SS report CD87, at about 8:30 PM on Nov. 23 a request was issued to locate and obtain postal money order #2,202,130,462 dated 3/12/63 in the amount of $21.45 payable to Klein's by Alek James Hidell. [question: how and when did the SS get the money order number and date?]

9. ??? [question: anything else?]

This all seems consistent so far. I need to insert the information reported by the press and answer the questions in red. Any help would be appreciated.

DVP said to see this also:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Let me see about each of these points:

1. The assumption is the FBI is not aware of the serial # until 11:45pm 11/22.

An FBI agent Charles Brown receives the weapon in the mid afternoon along with Drain who was there at the time

2. When did they get this info Randy? if they only know about it by midnight who did they talk to in Dallas? Pinkston tells a story as well, as I posted. The FBI supposedly shows up at Kleins around 10pm Friday night, 11pm DC time and 10pm Dallas time...

3. [questions: when were the invoice and order letter found? the microfilmed order letter includes the envelope it was mailed in... seriously, Klein's microfilmed even envelopes? why did the search take seven hours?]

Great question. Depends on which FBI report you believe. One with all three FBI agents claims Waldman kept the film for safekeeping - to be subpeonaed if need be. The other, virtually identical report - same day, same subject - only has FBI SA DOLAN on it. On this one the film IS taken, and ultimately copied with a copy given back to Waldman.

Of course it makes no sense that the Envelope would be microfilmed but not the Postal Money Order. Since the PMO was not related to a real life transaction it would not be on that microfilm - which is no longer in its case at the Archives

4. There was no confusion Randy. It appears from this report it was just a typo: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0226a.htm since there refer to the $21.45 a number of times and do not mention the discrepancy

5. The "Order Letter" is the "Coupon I believe" and he says $12.78 based on the info acquired by Holmes - the wrong ad from the wrong magazine - thanks to Martha Moyer's article

6. see #5

7. I found 9 $21.45's on that deposit dated in February - and also the Wilmouth FBI report mentions totals and subtotals that do not appear on these records

8. http://ctka.net/2015/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf is my PMO timeline. WCD87 p118 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=118&tab=page gives us a time the PMO is first mentioned in an order from the SS Chief Paterni to FIND IT.

This is when the amazing Marks>Jackson story is offered where these two men get into the Archives on Sat night and find the PMO.

During the day on Sat Waldman calls SSSA GRIFFITHS in Chicago and tells him about the FBI coming and the $21.45 PMO.

According to Holmes he had the PMO stub with the amount and number - except that's not in evidence nor is the name of the person finding the stub....

Randy - not sure if you also read my Rifle work. John and I see things a little differently in a few areas.

I'm not sure what you exactly presented above as an argument for or against anything. DVP is a devout believer of the gov't lies with a faith unmatched. But the evidence never backs him up - and in fact usually does the refuting on face value.

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy... can't say it any plainer than that.

DJ

Bravo Chris....

The 5 48fps frames from 161-166 shown at 18.3fps is effectively hidden and removes the wide turn onto Elm.

With these calcs we can find where the film switches from 48fps to 18.3 and back - yes?

btw - the limo's lights going on and off can be seen in Jeffrie's film. It does not seem to me the lights blink once they turn on Elm...

So what I meant was, "I'm not sure how they got the connection between the serial number and Kleins."

I posted about Nat Pinkston, an FBI agent who claims to have run into DAY as he was leaving the TSBD and got the Serial #. He called a local gun dealer who said if they didn't sell it, Klein's in Chicago did.

No one seems to have mentioned Pinkston in their narrative. And I did find the FBI report of his from the 22nd ... yet no one else's story includes this man....

Re: Robert Prudhomme, post #272-

Please note that WCD 897 p. 35 states that Peggy Hawkins "estimated that the President's car was less than fifty feet away from her when he was shot."

Therefore, since President Kennedy was shot when his limousine was in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign, I felt it was appropriate for me to synopsize Hawkins' statement by describing her as "in the vicinity of the Stemmons sign", rather than look up her exact location, since it had been a long day. It was not misleading to describe her that way. And after all, her specific location mattered little, since she said that she hid with her small child behind the retaining wall upon hearing shots. And this action took up too much time for her to have any chance of witnessing Truly & Baker in the front lobby.

I cannot help you with your anger-management problem, but rather than being a one-line cheap shot artist, you might find some way to express it off-line.

If we are to give Holmes any credibility would it be describing the first shots? A number of witnesses place this first shot as the Limo rounds the corner... not well down by the Stemmons sign. interesting question by Belin here about "aid from an optical instrument", no? No other witness was asked this strange question...

Mr. HOLMES. As it came out of Main Street, the President was sitting on the right in the back seat. His wife was on the left. Governor Connally, whom I also recognized, was sitting on the right of the middle seat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument?

Mr. HOLMES. I had a pair of 7 1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not standing up. This is a short block.

Mr. BELIN. From Main to Elm?

Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were three of them.

You go on to write:

Has there not been a solid 8-10 years of postulating that Baker encountered someone on the 4th floor? And what has pondering about that actually led to? (besides the near-immediate realization that Baker's description doesn't fit Dougherty, Jarman, Williams & Norman).

Q- Where did 4th floor man vanish to?

A- Into thin air.

Is this not a complete dead-end? Hopelessly insoluble?

Which makes "4th floor man" useless as a working hypothesis

That you can easily dismiss a signed affidavit is surprising. Baker was specific, clear and concise.

No lunchroom, no door, no 2nd floor... Just a man coming down the stairs. A 5'11" 165lb 30 year old - now where did we hear that description before??

Did Mooney here go up BEFORE Baker and Truly? Doesn't appear so.

Mr. BALL - When you ran across Elm, where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park.

Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped into the railroad yards and began to look around there.

And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers.

Mr. BALL - Why did you go over to the railroad yard?

Mr. MOONEY - Well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction.

Mr. BALL - That would be north and west from where you were standing?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. To a certain extent--northwest. The way the echo sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many second-- of course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BALL - How did you get those orders?

Mr. MOONEY - They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker.

...We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Running BACK into the location where his sheriff tells him shots originated and taking two women back to their offices in the same building minutes after the fact is just fine.

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.

And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.

And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.

At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was--he was calming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.

I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.

So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.

Well, so I hollered, or signaled I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.

(NOTE: Fritz does not arrive on scene until 12:58, coming back from Parkland)

This next part confirms the impossibility of people taking those back stairs without making a racket and other hearing them... I also find it interesting that neither Baker or Truly comment about these other officers.

Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.

Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.

But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.

Even more confusing is who are the "plainclothesmen" Mooney passes as they are coming down from above the 2nd floor... and when did THEY get up there prior to Mooney?

This is not Sawyer and his DPD cops who entered and went to the 4th floor at 12:37 or so...

Such convolutions have not, and cannot, produce sustainable results. After 10+ years, a viable hypothesis should produce at least one lasting fruit- one solid deduction.

Aint gonna learn what we dont wanna know Richard....

Men are seen, in plainclothes, on the 6th floor as early as 12:15 by a number of witnesses... more than one man and in more than one corner of the building.

15 minutes later after shots are supposedly fired from that area a cop and a sheriff's dept policeman run into people coming down the stairs - none of whom have ever been identified and that for some reason is perfectly acceptable to you as a conclusion despite the obvious change in Baker's 11/22 story

Webster and Vickery arrive with Mooney and take the back stairs while he takes an elevator. Mooney specifically mentions these men, repeatedly yet does not ID them as the men coming down the stairs as he is going up. Neither Baker or Truly mention others in the building

If you allowed yourself to theorize without constraint you might conclude the man REID sees in a T shirt with a coke is not the man Baker and Truly claim had on a brown overshirt and no coke

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?

Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?

Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?

Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.

Here is a cancelled passport showing the same height of 5' 11".

Hey Bob...

Here is a composite of the entry and exit paperwork... the 17 year old got bigger and stronger by Sept 59 yet somehow shrinks and loses his identifying marks..

(edit - I thought I had combined them - this is only his discharge info... here is the other showing the 5'8" 131 lb boy.

Amazing how these stats are reflected on Oswald's autopsy sheets 7 years later.

The differences and similarities were there - yet since few if any ever see these two side by side, they would not know about what Sturgis and others tell us - one Oswald was bigger, heavier and from the South... the other wasn't. One was a fighter and more of a thug, the other more cerebral.

There are definite and obvious differences between the two which are easily illustrated side by side.... from their size, to the shoulder slope, to the shapes of their heads and hair, to the way they stand.

The man next to tiny Marina here is supposed to be 5'11 150+ lbs (his discharge size)

whereas the man Ruby kills is barely 5'9 and 135 lbs.... nice trick to shrink from age 20 to 24 and then change facial characteristics.

These are simply visual representations of the mountains of evidence which establish the existence of two different men.

This post is not designed to change anyone's mind, only to put visuals with the descriptions of the two men/boys and spark interest in the discussion.

For those who are convinced H&L is not supported by evidence... I respectfully disagree.

Ozzie holding June photo is taken a week after the passport photo yet they are not the same person.

and they fill out a tshirt so similarly

What a sterling piece of work by John.

I mean what he does here, is he shows so many breaks in the evidentiary chain that I don't see how anyone can take the proposition that Oswald ordered and got that rifle seriously anymore.

And the thing of course is this: he could have gone even longer on the other side of the transaction, the delivery, but who wants to read that long?

He even shows where the FBI screwed up in their cover story! How rich is that?

Glad he gave credit to David Josephs at the end. David was also showing that it is highly unlikely that Klein's ever had that rifle at the time the alleged money order was sent. Between David, Gil Jesus and John, this has been proven about four different ways.

And that is what created all the subterfuge later.

And in a real court of law, with a real trial, Harry Holmes should have been indicted.

The more I read of Harry the more he smells like a less ambition Gerald Ford.... kept his eyes out, and when called upon, delivered.

Whoa, DJ... please slow down!! Let's shut down the warp drive engines and savor the deliciousness of your point for a moment.

LOL... The article is right there... their testimony is a click away... thanks for posting it... now to speculate a bit

So we see this Oswald focused on setting up Harvey the shooter, the communist with a Russian wife - as opposed to the Cuban related Oswald who I firmly see as Harvey in most cases (ie Odio)

Two separate paths of the same story of two stories?

==============

and Jim D... The first link I found related to Nat http://www.dallasnews.com/obituary-headlines/20110915-nat-pinkston-the-fbi-agent-who-linked-rifle-to-lee-harvey-oswald-dies-at-95.ece

then I found

Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2007

David:

I am intrigued by the selection of the Italian rifle as the incriminating weapon. And i am interested in whether you see any significance to this particular rifle (of all the rifles in the universe) being the one.

Early on, there are reports of three different rifles being the murder weapon after the assassination: (1) a British Enfield, (2) a German Mauser and (3) an Italian Mannlicher Carcano. All three are apparently in the TSBD, and each can be linked with various principals, from Frazier, to Shelley to Oswald. Some think the Carcano was planted because it was so cheap, or because it was readily available by mail order. Perhaps it is because it was difficult to trace its provenance (i.e. imported by imported by Crescent Firearms, shortened version, retrofitted and modified, several serial numbers etc.).

CIA had supplied Argentine Mausers to Castro for revolution: combined with Oswald's perceived association with Cuba and communism, the Mauser links Castro to Kennedy's murder. Perhaps opposing forces (e.g. FBI) switched the Mauser for a Carcano to detour an invasion of Cuba. However, I remain convinced that there is some deeper significance to the selection of this particular style and make.

Gene

Gene -

I had started to answer this by looking more deeply into the Enfield option.... the Enfield I was thinking of was Wesley's taken from him by Rose & Stovall

What makes you think it was at the TSBD?

the Rifle Truly talked about in relation to Warren Caster does not ID the "larger" one.

Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under which you saw these guns?

Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for his boy.

Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster got during the noon hour?

Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them.

Yet I also came across this article dated DEC 7 from DALLAS which states that "info gathered today indicates..." the Enfield Ryder discusses had a scope mounted but was not the Italian rifle credited with JFK's death.

"It was disclosed yesterday that Oswald's Italian rifle came from Chicago with a scope ready for mounting" On Dec 6th? is when this was disclosed?

I went further into the Ryder story by looking at his statements and then wondered why no one in this thread mentions Whitworth or Hunter? I come to find that Whitworth & Hunter were taken to see Marina and discuss if this woman was the same woman they saw... http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m2.htm

The testimony of Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald, Edith Whitworth, and Gertrude Hunter was taken at 11 a.m., on July 24, 1964

I originally pasted some of the exchanges here yet I am simply offering the link - reading these interviews and what is concluded can best be summed up by Marina:

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about her, but she had ribbons in here hair.

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I have?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, and I remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was at the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the pigtail?

Mrs. HUNTER. What I can remember about her was the sad expression in her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else with Mrs. Oswald when you saw her in the grocery store?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or who was with her or nothing about it. I just remember her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just remember her?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. Maybe it was somebody Just like me?

Anyone reading thru this exchange can see that everyone is talking about a different place and person - not Marina - yet possibly Lee Harvey... except as you read on you find this occurs during the week when Ozzie was at work at the TSBD during the week of November 4th.

With regards to the MAUSER - it's hard to dismiss all the identifications of that rifle and how readily the "MAUSER" and "7.65" are seen on the top.

Also to remember is that Boone and Weitzman had ample time and opporunity BEFORE they wrote these affidavits to know the true identity of the rifle Day carried out.

They were not required to name the specific rifle, maker and/or caliber - but they did anyway on a legal dicument they both signed their names to - not done lightly I suupose given this was a detective and a patrolman.

For someone claiming to only take a brief look, Weitzman was able to describe details of the weapon which someone who hadn't spent their lives around rifle as he had would not notice.

Mr. BALL - Take E here and make a mark on E as to the location of the place where the gun was found.

Mr. WEITZMAN - Same area.

Mr. BALL - The same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was found?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. BALL - In the statement that you made to the Dallas Police Department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser bolt action?

Mr. WEITZMAN - In a glance, that's what it looked like.

Mr. BALL - That's what it looked like did you say that or someone else say that?

Mr. WEITZMAN - No; I said that. I thought it was one.

Mr. BALL - Are you fairly familiar with rifles?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Fairly familiar because I was in the sporting goods business awhile.

Mr. BALL - You also said at the time the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., is that correct?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I believe that is correct. I wouldn't commit myself there because I am not sure; I'm not positive that was it.

Mr. BALL - In this statement, it says Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber.

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - He did eject one live round?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live round, yes, sir. You said remove anything from the rifle; I was not considering that a shell.

Mr. BALL - I understand that. Now, in your statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked.

Mr. WEITZMAN - I said it was a Mauser-type action, didn't I?

Mr. BALL - Mauser bolt action.

Mr. WEITZMAN - And at the time I looked at it, I believe I said it was 2.5 scope on it and I believe I said it was a Weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a Weaver, but that was at a glance.

Mr. BALL - You also said it was a gun metal color?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Gray or blue?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Blue metal.

Mr. BALL - And the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn?

Mr. WEITZMAN - That's right.

Mr. BALL - And the wooden portion of the rifle was what color?

Mr. WEITZMAN - It was a brown, or I would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown.

Mr. BALL - Rough wood, was it?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; rough wood.

Mr. BALL - And it was equipped with a scope?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Was it of Japanese manufacture?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I believe it was a 2.5 Weaver at the time I looked at it. I didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a 2.5 but it turned out to be a Japanese scope, I believe.

Mr. BALL - Didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman?

Mr. WEITZMAN - I asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the President. He said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when I went back over the fence and that's when I found the portion of the skull. I thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. This was before we knew the President was dead.

Mr. BALL - Did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from?

Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and I believe that's to the right where I went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail.

Mr. BALL - I think that's all.

and finally the MC rifle.....

I did my first CTKA article on the plan Oswald would need to employ under the assumption he did it.... http://www.ctka.net/2014/The%20evidence%20is%20the%20conspiracy.html

There is much more to it than just throwing it into theback of Wesley's car - I am confident this essay will show that stating Oswald made a split second decision to do the deed - ie not much advanced planning as the WCR states - and was able to work the timings to perfection are a construct of the FBI and not possible. Let me know what you think.

The way the event unfolded it is hard to believe that Phase 1 Attack Cuba as a result of the assassination was anything but a diversion to create incriminating evidence against a patsy. If so we SHOULD have found more than one rifle yet in different places on the 6th floor, Grassy Knoll, Dal Tex or whereever... the tell tale evidence left behind suggests a shot from the car bumper behind the Grassy Knoll fence and from some location behind the limo.

My gut tells me there is some significance to the Carcano - but like the true meaning of crytical lyrics in a song - only the author knows.

Prove who was connected to the planting of that rifle and we may have a better idea of why the Carcano. It could have made much more sense to have him buying it at HL Greene in Dallas.

I must say as well that from my view of it, C2766 and those other 99 rifles were never at Kleins nor ever ordered or shipped to Hidell or Ozzie POBox. Yet it does seem to appear on the 6th floor with a scope by the back stairs without fingerprints - until it gets back from the FBI...

The FBI would have no way of knowing what they say in their reports from that day - that "N"2766 was received by Kleins in June and C27"4"6 was received in March 1963. Another FBI acknowledge rifle source has pages of serial numbers with no prefix including a 2766... http://www.ctka.net/2015/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf

Rupp is the only person in this story who sends “Crescent-to-Klein’s” order info to Feldsott in

NYC after shipment. For Feldsott to have order info for a June 18, 1962 shipment, Rupp or some

other rifle dealer needs to have completed an order and sent it to Klein’s. Rupp offers no such

evidence while the Century Arms to Empire Wholesale Sporting goods order of June 29, 1962 had a

“2766” Carcano in the shipment. Amazingly none of the 1300 rifles sent from

Canada have the letter prefix – whether this is “C”2766 cannot be known. WCD881 p67 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277&search=rupp#relPageId=70&tab=page

I'm sorry for the long winded reply - your question is very interesting. It may alos be as simple as Waldman's desire to cooperate.

found this too ??? http://www.dallasnews.com/obituary-headlines/20110915-nat-pinkston-the-fbi-agent-who-linked-rifle-to-lee-harvey-oswald-dies-at-95.ece

Mr. Pinkston, who spent much of his 28-year FBI career in Dallas investigating interstate auto theft, traced the Carcano rifle used to kill the president to Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago.

On Nov. 22, 1963, Mr. Pinkston saw the presidential motorcade pass by from a third-floor window of Dallas police headquarters, according to the account he provided the Oral History Collection at The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza in 1994.

Thirty minutes after the assassination, Mr. Pinkston was in the Texas School Book Depository investigating the crime.

The next day, he started his hunt for the rifle’s owner with gun expert Ruby Goldstein of Honest Joe’s pawnshop. Using the serial number, he traced the gun back to Chicago and Oswald’s mail order.

I posted this over at DPF to see if we can't track down more info on SA Pinkston. https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?15483-FBI-SA-Nat-Allan-Pinkston-says-he-found-that-Kleins-sold-C2766&p=107087#post107087

Seems this story is to prove that DAY walked out with the 40" FC rifle C2766 and the FBI was all over it... Strange.

DJ

Any idea what is up with the document Armstrong uses for Holmes T informant status and the two I presented on Feb 2?

John tells me the page is as he saw it and copied it at the Archives.

Strange that page 3 would be on page 1... unless the Archives didn't have page 2 available....

DJ

A key question is, why did the FBI fabricate so many documents, as John Armstrong alleges?

I believe Armstrong's allegations are correct.

I don't believe any FBI employee had a hand in killing JFK. The cover-up is another matter. So why did FBI agents fabricate those documents? I believe Hoover didn't want any official conclusion other than that LHO killed JFK acting alone. No one in any position of power in the U.S. government wanted any other conclusion. I believe the plotters anticipated this unfolding of events; which tells me the plotters had an unerring take on D.C. power politics.

That narrows the field for me.

Jon...

In all the work with the Evidence I've done, the number of tricks and tactics within it designed to CYA in any direction and confuse the issue is impossible to ignore.

Even the Commissioners at Exec Session were amazed the FBI declared Ozzie the man, alone. Dulles, in his calculated way, couldn't understand the FBI's actions if it was or wasn't their asset..

His only job was to keep things on the right track.

Creating the evidence required was a long standing Hoover (and all of intelligence) tradition. Yet I do not agree that it was Hoover who decided anything but whose hand was forced - as his note below says

The mindset of 1960 remains the most difficult to adjust when pondering these questions. In that day and age what the gov't said was it... and the mass media backed them.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Today the same thing exists only it's buried in the mountain of noise instead of quietly acknowledged and hidden in the back rooms or secret filing cabinets

I doubt we can adequately appreciate it to see these actions in their context.

Any idea what is up with the document Armstrong uses for Holmes T informant status and the two I presented on Feb 2?

Only a guess Bart... but I've combined two half page exhibits into one image for display purposes.

It seems obvious that page three of what you posted would comprise T-13 thru San Antonio T-1 and was simply pasted/copied/photoshopped onto the bottom half of page one for that image

Considering your version is all redacted and John's isn't, his putting them together on a copy machine on the Archives or sometime subsequent would be my guess...

Better yet, I'll ask him... His stories of his archive days are always fascinating.

DJ

On the one hand, the fake rifle purchase seems to have been a part of the cover up... not engineered by the assassination plotters. Because it seemingly wasn't planned beforehand. On the other hand, it was initiated so quickly that it's hard to believe it could have been a part of the cover-up.

Does anybody have a plausible explanation for this?

I would guess it depends on whether you feel the purpose of the incrimination of Oswald was to implicate Castro and expose a Castro backed conspiracy with numerous players... or not.

There appears to be very good evidence for a Phase 1 to Phase 2 transition very quickly afterward which may render phase 1 only a tactic to achieve multiple ends or truly a planned and desired option - that's for you to decide.

When properly investigated as a cuban/oswald conspiracy many of the events John illuminates fit neatly into that story such as McKeown's Oswald and Cuban visitor, the Cubans in DP with whoever it was they picked up and on the flip side Gaudet's confirmation of Bannister and Oswald showing him playing both sides, iow an intelligence asset.

Odio's story becomes clear to further connect Oswald with Cubans as does the bogus Mexico City evidence offered prior to Nov 22.

According to the Tale of Two Tapes the decision that it was Oswald alone comes well within 5 hours of the shooting and is conveyed by Bundy to AF-1 and the Cabinet plane. Even if you don't fully accept that it was clear that DC was putting out the Ozzie alone story quickly... maybe too quickly to not see it being carefully planned - thereby making the Castro elements an insurance policy of sorts.

The Dodd committee was already working thru Klein's and with Waldman.

The real evidence of the transaction is woefully thin and self corroborating in that of these supposed 100 rifles, their existence at Kleins is established by:

1. the Feb 22 notation on the changed order,

2. Westra's two pages of VC #'s and

3. 10 packing slips which were entered into evidence by both Feldsott in Nov and Waldman in March for two completely different things.

That's it. Nothing gets the rifle from Rupp to Kleins even though those records are required of gun dealers.

Not one of the other 99 rifles has ever been seen. Not one of the 100 rifles was exchanged or repaired by Rupp before shipment.

Not one order for the FC rifle between April 63 and Nov 63 is found.

No other evidence is offered to support any other rifle than C2766's incrimination of Oswald was ever at Kleins...

Not one of the rifles on that list of 99 remaining serial numbers has ever been seen.

Not one order for a C20-T750 from Feb 62 thru Feb 63 is ever offered to illustrate what they did when those orders came in... Klein's sold rifles... hard to accept they advertise a rifle for a year and don't sell but one, documented, to the assassin of the president. And the microfilm which contained these 900+ orders including Hidell's is no longer in its box at the Archives - again, per John's visit there.

We learn in an unsigned FBI report that Waldman claims to have removed all the remaining inventory of that rifle feeling it not right to sell them.

And that's the end of the rifle trail... they simply vanish.... Of course if there is info I don't have or couldn't find that shows I'm mistaken I'd love to correct and update my work...

Anyone know of anyone who has ever seen or even claims to have owned another one of those 99 rifles?

I've presented my thoughts and evidence in articles at CTKA... suffice to say, I see much more FBI, SS, USPS and I&NS scrambling and cobbling together ways to change evidence which was to put Ozzie into a Castro backed assassination plan, into an Ozzie alone plan - much of this Castro related evidence the domain and creation of the CIA.

A number of years ago I had had about enough of Humes and his charade so I took a very close look at what he said about the headwound and plotted it on a skull in 2 and 3 dimensions.

The part of the testimony illustrated is presented below and what we find are 3 very distinct lines of injury on what have shown a shot from the front.

Best Evidence proved to me that a craniotomy was in process prior to 8pm. Brains do not fall out of skulls, it's a very complicated procedure to separate brain from the body.

What Humes describes is POST his butchering of the head and is not possible with a single bullet...

Commander HUMES - Exhibit 391 is listed as a supplementary report on the autopsy of the late President Kennedy, and was prepared some days after the examination.
This delay necessitated by, primarily, our desire to have the brain better fixed with formaldehyde before we proceeded further with the examination of the brain which is a standard means of approach to study of the brain.
The brain in its fresh state does not lend itself well to examination.
From my notes of the examination, at the time of the post-mortem examination, we noted that clearly visible in the large skull defect and exuding from it was lacerated brain tissue which, on close inspection proved to represent the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.
We also noted at this point that the flocculus cerebri was extensively lacerated and that the superior sagittal sinus which is a venous blood containing channel in the top of the meninges was also lacerated.
To continue to answer your question with regard to the damage of the brain, following the formal infixation, Dr. Boswell, Dr. Finck and I convened to examine the brain in this state.
We also prepared photographs of the brain from several aspects to depict the extent of these injuries.
We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.
The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex.
The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere.
The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration.
In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain.
When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution.
Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description.
When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.
This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.
There were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. We interpret that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the relative intact skull.
This has been described as contre-coup injury in that location.
This, then, I believe, Mr. Specter, are the major points with regard to the President's head wound.

A "Money Order Timeline" summary....

Please note that there is solid evidence to support every step of the Hidell money order's journey --- from the post office in Dallas all the way to the document's final resting place at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia (just outside Washington, D.C.)....

1.) The Dallas "G.P.O." Post Office handled the CE788 "Hidell" money order --- via the two stamps applied to the M.O. at the post office (i.e., the "Dallas, Tex.; G.P.O.; Mar. 12, 1963" stamp and the "$21.45" stamp that appear on the money order).

2.) The purchaser, Lee Harvey Oswald, handled the money order --- via the fact that Oswald's handwriting is on the document.

3.) Klein's Sporting Goods Company handled the money order --- via the Klein's "Pay To The Order Of The First National Bank Of Chicago" stamp on the back of the M.O.

4.) The First National Bank of Chicago handled the money order in question --- via the FBI interview with First National Bank Vice President Robert Wilmouth on November 23, 1963 [see CD75]. In that interview, Wilmouth verified that his bank received a $13,827.98 deposit from Klein's on 3/15/63, which contained a U.S. Postal Money Order in the amount of 21 dollars and 45 cents. Wilmouth also verified that the subject money order was sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 16, 1963.

5.) The Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago handled the Hidell money order --- via the presence on the document of the ten-digit "File Locator Number" in the upper left corner, which is a number that is stamped on a money order (or check) only after it has reached a Federal Reserve Bank for processing.

6.) And the CE788 money order was recovered on November 23, 1963, by employees of the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, which is precisely where approximately 75% of the U.S. Postal Money Orders were being sent for storage by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago in March of 1963 [see CD75, Page 669].

Now, if ALL of the above things are fake, fraudulent, or just a bunch of lies, then I think we can all agree that miracles are, indeed, possible.

David - if there was solid evidence you'd point to it or post it. You telling us to TRUST YOU since you know the evidence is there is pretty lame. Especially since the evidence you call up can all be shown for the crap it is...

1) For that money order to be purchased by Oswald he needed to have left work at some point during that day - assumedly prior to the 10:30AM stamp on the envelope - walk from JCS at 544 Browder to 400 N Ervay, the USGPO with the FBI field office just next door - purchase the PMO and then get to Zone 12 in time for them to pick the letter up, process it and get it into the Air Mail.

Why again doesn't Ossie just mail it from the GPO he is standing in when purchased?

2) Handwriting determinations are done using ORIGINAL MATERIALS. Where did you get this info Dave?

Could it have been from Holmes' recap of the morning? I wonder when, in the 1 hour it takes before he calls back - I wonder when the SS & FBI had an opportunity to make that comparison with the original PMO?

It wasn’t ten minutes that they hollered, “Eureka!” They had the stub!

I called it in immediately to the chief on the open line to Washington and said, “I’ve got the money order number that Oswald used to buy this gun, and according to the records up there, they had shipped it to this box that he had rented at the main office in Dallas at that time, which he later closed and opened another at the Terminal Annex because it was closer to the School Book Depository.”

So he said, “Well, we’ll run that right through the correlators or whatever they do up there.”

In about an hour, he called back and said, “We’ve got it! Both the FBI and the Secret Service labs have positively identified the handwriting as being that of Oswald.”

Any ideas? Any documentation on this hasty comparison or are you simply taking Holmes at his word?

3) Well that's one. The stamp on the back does appear similar to the Kleins stamp... but not identical.

4) An unsigned summary report is not the same as a signed affidavit Dave... The FBI can and did write whatever suited them in these "Summary" reports.

But let's look at what Wilmouth said and what the record shows.

He claims there were two items for $21.45 that day in the deposit from Kleins and that the first was an AMEX MO which he identifies by the preceeding and following amounts. The other $21.45 is claimed to be a PMO which his bank would have forwarded to FRB of Chicago.

Yet I see what may be SEVEN instances of $21.45 on that deposit which is dated one thing while the dlip is dated another.

In any case... Green arrows point to items which appear the same as the first $21.45. Where do you see a group total of $6,178 in this deposit Dave? The subtotal on the evidence says something else entirely... ???

Also - with a total of $13,827.98 we'd see yet another running total for $7,649.98. Where's that Dave?

Until you authenticate this deposit as being on the day in question - it's just some piece of paper. Your faith in it is heartwarming yet sadly not proof of anything but your beliefs.

5) It does not appear that the PMO in Evidence even has a new 9-digit ABA routing # or the older ####-#### 8-digit format. What's the ABA for this PMO Dave?

"Punch card" money orders that have the ABA routing number 0000-0119 will be handled as mutilated items. They should be identified as old style "punch card" money orders on the PS Form 1901 for code 004.

This section relates to the handling of mutilated paper money orders with ABA routing numbers 0000-0020 or 000000204.

7050.10 -Mutilated paper money orders must be grouped in batches not to exceed 200 documents in a batch. If the total number of mutilated items does not exceed 200, they may be handled as one batch. For larger quantities, make as many batches as necessary, not exceeding 200 in any one batch.

7050.20 -Insert a USPS Batch Locator Control Document at the beginning of each batch of mutilated money orders.

7050.30 -Prepare an adding machine listing of each batch showing the following information:

• FRB name or code at the top.
• The amount of each item.
• The total amount of the batch.
• FRB clearance date.
• Batch number.

7050.40 -Batches of the paper money orders that cannot be machine processed without first being MICR amount encoded may be delivered to the USPS representative without processing, provided the above requirements are essentially met.

7050.50 - The total amount of mutilated items should be entered on the PS Form 1901, code 110.

So Dave - which marks can you point to - are made by the FRB processing this PMO so the Postmaster could trace it back incase there's a problem? The PS Form 1901 the USPS would have kept... no can find?

The tapes related to this process? ANYTHING which can be pointed to on that PMO which shows it was processed by the US banking system or the USPS?

6) As for the PMO being found at 9:30 in Alexandria. and handed to SS SA PARKER at 10:10pm at Harold Marks Home.

- You are then admiting that HOLMES' story is a complete lie and that the PMO could not have been found based on the story he tells.

- WCD87 p89 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=89&tab=page tells us via the SS that the PMO was recovered in Kansas City

- WCD87 p94 only a few pages later, we learn that at 7:55pm in KC the SS SAIC learns that the PMO was found and conveys this info to KROZ.

At no point in this document does it claim the PMO was found 35 minutes later in VA. According to the Chicago SS office, the PMO was found in Kansas City as expected and as was looked for most the day.

At the top of this same page KROZ is told to keep looking in KC

If Harry Holmes was aware of the knowledge that PMO were sent to VA and was working with the SS... why do the SS SA's in KC along with the USPS employees continue looking in a place the USPS and/or Archive employees would know that PMOs were no longer sent there?

As usual David - you present conclusions as if they've been authenticated and corroborated when they are only accurate in your mind and to your belief system.

You need to PROVE the EVIDENCE YOU USE IS AUTHENTIC - otherwise it's just rhetoric. PROVE something Dave... anyone can vomit up unsubstantiated info.

Turn your vomit into something of value and authenticate the evidence Dave... just as you would expect anyone offering it to prove someone's guilt would demand...

thanks

Tommy,

that was the second time in as many responses that you painted me as someone who doesn't read the thread I'm posting in. As a matter of fact I've already given Robert my opinion on his theory and supplied another witness who saw a cop go up the steps.

If you want me to talk about another point why bother quoting my full post?

That's what I don't quite understand.

Nothing Duncan has done has improved my understanding of the anyone on the steps. He takes a reasonably decent image and then screws with it till he finds something that wasn't there originally, he's been doing it for over a decade according to some and appears to have learnt nothing. But that's the thing, you can't do something repeatedly year after year and not get better at it, it's practically impossible, so I treat the whole thing as a joke, it's a wind up that brings him more advertising revenue. It's the xmas push.

That's my opinion, it might be shared but it's what I truly believe since it makes zero sense for someone to be pushing the same low level garbage for over ten years.

Of course you've never seen his shooter inside the shelter, or the three conspirators behind the wall, or why he thought Sitzman was a shooter, or the shooter on top of the pergola but if we did, I guarantee we'd see the same distortions that gave you sideburns.

There you have it.

Perfectly put Clive.

Tommy and by default Albert remain in the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality. Do either profess a knowledge of imagery, analog v digital, or any of the other nuances required to understand that while Duncan can claim to see whatever he like - as so many before him - the images are there for all to see. If you want to see a woman in a hat and glasses with a purse taking a photo - more power to you.

To claim to ID gender and see details in this fuzz is laughable despite the seriousness with which Duncan appeared to have offered it. We are also to remember what Duncan replied to me when I asked him directly about it - seems his answer and Clive's theory might have some relationship.

12 December 2015 - 12:52 AM

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22524&page=1entry320025

Duncan has provided amazingly good work over the years - my only guess here is that he is enjoying the result of pushing this boulder down the mountain and does not for a second think he can PROVE anything -

He does soom to be saying "Anyone but Oswald" in this analysis as if it was important somehow to maintain the charade.

Again - can anyone address why they think Shelley tells us Lloyd Viles is up there with him during the motorcade - when he obviously was not. Why hide his true location unless he was covering for who was actually there?

When we asnwer that question - and remember the image of Shelley at the ITM in NOLA with Oswald and the Cubans - the Manager of the Misc department is obviously hiding alot.

That W-2 appears to be opened or separated on the right so it makes sense to me that the writing wouldn't match. The dots may have been lined up there. If you move the paper over and down (for the dots to cover the other dots,which looks about like the distance that "INC's" are apart), it looks like it would line up. Also, I think Judyth was in FL during the time these are sent out. This would've been mailed to her in '64.

Not "Copy B" Kathy. Most citizens will happily show their Copy C of their W-2 - the one you keep while Copy B - goes to the IRS.

If there are other forms for those years then by all means - produce them.

Yet between there not being a matching form in any year and her having the wrong copy of the W-2 and finally.. where is the Reilly Coffee copy?

The other thing that always intrigued me was the bus ride they shared daily for months - guess they were cautious just not overly - no one on the bus or the driver would recognize the same two getting on blocks apart and sitting together and getting off together... every day?

If any of the physical evidence supported her story she would offer it, instead we get this W-2 and Anna Lewis as her bona fides.

What other do with that is up to them - I find it terribly assumptive to think we'd all just nod our heads and be amazed. But then that's why there are sheep, wolves and the dogs who protect the sheep.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

None of that is produced in this instance.

That's really too bad Greg.

Here, outside the confines of your Forum where more eyes and minds can add to the discussion, your presentation of Prouty's POV related to Sponsors can be held up to real scrutiny by those with many more years thinking more deeply about this than I.

Those who feel discussions degrade into something unintended tend to feel even more strongly when their POV or conclusions are called into question with solid evidence and argument.

Yes, we disagree with you and the post at the top of this thread lays out the reasons why in a straight forward and amicable manner.

Evica names Sponsors.

Prouty, and by proxy - you feel that once named they are and always have been False. That Real Sponsors are impossible to know.

I'm sorry you're not going forward with a presentation of the impossible to know Sponsor and Why that is so...

I'm sure many here would benefit from the different interpretation of what was inteded by the creator of the model.

Specifically, the initiating order was inside the complex of corporate and financial institutions of the Rockefeller-Morgan-Mellon alliance: the advisors, associates, and partners of David Rockefeller.

What part of this leads you to believe that the names mentioned here are all False Sponsors.

Are we to understand that Prouty believed there were those who superceded these three families and their global alliances and remain so thoroughly veiled by their position that no one is aware of who they are? Surely the R-M-M alliances which stem from and operate thru the Rothschild empire were not beholden to yet an even higher level of elite cabal member?

Who gave the orders which David Rockefeller was required to follow - you know, just to put things into perspective.

As you may know or not, I've made this subject and the identification of the Bankers, Lawyers and others who make up the Sponsor level a pet project of mine. In my writing of this history of Spying in the US we find that only the most wealthy families were able to offer up resources for the craft. US spies were international yet had to pay their own ways since until the FBI's SIS there was no unified spying effort from the US. These elite families bred the original spies who in turn amassed proprietaryknowledge.

The sharing of such knowledge with the governments (or not) which employed them makes for a very interesting situation of who knew what, when. And what was this info able to allow these richest of worldwide families to accomplish?

"Knowledge is power" cannot be illustrated any better.

Below is a list of the world's wealthiest and most influence familes past and present - all False Sponsors of the trials and tribulations of the common man? Not one guilty Real Sponsor in the batch?

I respectfully beg to differ with that conclusion and feel that McGeorge Bundy was Sponsor class level while performing as a lead Facilitator. Same goes for 5 of the 6 Wise Men which includes Harriman and McCloy (also a Cravath, Saine and Moore partner btw). George Kennan was not at all involved at that level yet remains one of the few who pegged the Soviets for what they are and was listened to by this elite level - FDR especially (whose family and connections are on par with the R-M-M trifecta Evica mentions).

It's all good Greg... I'm sure we can get along with differing points of view here. I hope there comes a time when you feel it worthwhile to engage in this discussion. Until then books like None Dare Call It Conspiracy illustrate the workings of the Sponsor class and partly how they came to control this country. You're right, no one knows who Colonel House was. Doesn't mean he was invisible or unknowable...or was not a Direct Facilitator for the Real Sponsors of the world at that time.

DJ

No worries Greg.. always a pleasure. The desire here is to have you weigh in on the matter with input from a larger audience; since you are such a learned student of the Prouty POV.

Are you willing to take a few minutes to explain why the Prouty POV of invisible-unknowable Sponsor differs so greatly from what Mr. Evica writes and from the observations of so many of us when we focus on these entities?

Roswell Gilpatrick was Asst Sec of Defense under McNamara as well as a partner in the law firm Cravath, Swaine and Moore who represented TEXTRON and Royal Little among many. Thru the CIA, TEXTRON was given the go ahead to buy a company $100M in the red with a realistic expectation to return a 25% profit immediately. After the purchase and the CIA's movement of helicopters to Laos, BELL was tapped to manufacture reaplcements as well as the tons of supporting parts to keep these terrible birds in the air. Prouty writes how terrible an idea it was to use helicopters in this fight. Sun Life of Montreal (now where have we seen Montreal connected to all of this - Permendex maybe?) backed by Sun Life of London along with a few other Insurance companies enable TEXTRON to buy BELL with a 7 year repayment grace period. Good to have friends at Hancock or Prudential as well as the First Bank of Boston.

This is the essence of the Military Industrial Complex and the revolving door of Congress-Military-Industry(Banking).

Are you ready to say that the controlling interests in this purchase and the growth of Textron into US defense in the years prior and after are NOT the working of a Sponsor level in a position to influence decisions as large as what the DoD spends its money on while owning the asets on both sides of the coin?

SPONSORS -- Those with the authority and motive to sanction the assassination and the connections to engage facilitating agents and systems.

I think we agree that Dulles was not the controlling force behind this but a high level facilitator....

Who, if not this named group with named ownership, was in a position to engage him and his agents and his systems?

Who had the most to gain by JFK's death ? and then we need to ask ourselves who indeed gained the most.

DJ

My point is, who had the power not only to order the killing of JFK, but also to order the cover-up of the killing?

The answer is, someone who had power in 1963-64.

The answer is someone who has power in 2015. yes

The nameless, faceless, and stateless Sponsors.

Stateless, yes.

Nameless and faceless?

Never marry a Pet Theory...Who were the most powerful stateless entities in 1963?

Couldn't agree more Cliff....

This assumption that a Sponsor need be unknown and invisible is the offspring of Prouty's thinking as forwarded by Mr. Burnham, and obviously not by the creator of the Model quoted below.

Those representing the Sponsor/Facilitator/Mechanic Evica/Drago model of the assassination heirarchy claiming the Sponsor is by definition unknowable are adding a roadblock to understanding these levels and those who represent them. In classic misdirection - these supporters will claim that any Sponsor identified is automatically a False Sponsor and I could not disagree more. 158 out of 120,000,000 familes are responsible for the overwhelming lion share of the campaign contributions. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/11/us/politics/2016-presidential-election-super-pac-donors.html?_r=0

"Just 158 families, along with companies they own or control, contributed $176 million in the first phase of the campaign, a New York Times investigation found".

The names in this list are not familiar at all - yet they are not invisibile. The Kock's support of Scott Walker and his anti-union / anti-collective bargaining stance has spread to these other wealthy families... and we are supposed to accept they are not the Sponsors of the world simply because they are visible? I sure would like to hear a defense of that conclusion.

While I appreciate the point of view it seems to me to work directly into the hands of the same Sponsors we are supposedly chasing. In essence, "if we illuminate the background, name or affiliations of said Sponsor - they are automatically no longer a Real Sponsor but automatically a False one leading us into more quicksand" - which again I feel is terrible destructivbe to our efforts.

LBJ used this technique in college with his secret club. If anyone was to ask if a member was a member, the question itself automatically dismissed the member from the club so they could answer truthfully - No. the member would then be reinstated at the next meeting.

Mr. E went out on a limb and identified the Sponsor level and a few members as example with David Rock at the top of the list. If we'd like to discuss the possibility that David Rock and friends were or were not a realistic option as the prime movers within this Sponsor level - great. I'm pretty sure we can make a strong case for Bundy as Sponsor-Rep moving in both the Sponsor and Facilitator realms. And I doubt anyone can convincingly argue that Harriman was not also a huge mover within the Sponsor level.

The Rock-Morgan-Mellon alliance is a direct decendent of the Rothschild dynasty and accounts for the ownership and control of virtually every country's national banking system on the planet. Add to this the Insurance and manufacturing strengths and we are led directly to the heart of the TEXTRON BUYS BELL HELICOPTER deal - which Prouty touches on very briedly in his JFK/Vietnam book. Sadly he does not pursue this lead as I did to find the names within the JFK Cabinet and advisors are directly tied to not only Textron but the banks and legal firms supporting and defending them. The BELL story is really quite amazing and revealing and anyone who wishes to see and understand the Sponsor level at work ought to read up on the subject.

To claim the Sponsors are invisible is to play into their hands and make the search hopeless. The Koch brothers are Sponsors of actions which shape and change our world every day - just ask the people of Minnesota. If we are not willing to make these statements and believe we can not only find the Sponsor but hold them accountable - what's the point?

I am by no means a scholar of Evica's work so I'd like to confine this discussion to what Mr. E wrote regarding the "Sponsor" or "initiator" level. I have found nothing to suggest that Mr. Evica felt the Sponsor was some unknowable entity. In fact the few sentences he writes about False Sponsors does not make that connection at all.

In reading this great work - Perfect Cover by Michael Evica, we do get a list of Sponsor-level entities and the people behind them.

That Albert Jenner is directly involved with the Sponsor level entities and is instrumental in crafting the WCR story speaks volumes to those trying to understand how the Sponsor runs the world.

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Evica/Perfect_cover.html

The initiating order was the U.S. Establishment, the Ruling Class, the Power Elite, the National Security State: the anti-JFK personae in Big Oil, banking, defense and their Intelligence and Military assets. Driven by both real and opportunistic anti-Communism, the Establishment aimed at reducing union strength, reducing production costs, and increasing the power of its “military-industrial complex” with its outposts in Southeast Asia, Latin America, and Western Europe.

Specifically, the initiating order was inside the complex of corporate and financial institutions of the Rockefeller-Morgan-Mellon alliance: the advisors, associates, and partners of David Rockefeller.

What the Rockefeller-Mellon-Morgan power elite perceived in JFK’s administration was a managed economy with wealth distribution driven by a strong president. The initiators, having decided that JFK had to be eliminated, sent their contract through D.C. power brokers (for example, Irving Davidson and Robert Maheu) to the facilitating order.

The facilitating order was made up of compromised U.S. intelligence figures, chiefly elements of the Central Intelligence Agency and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, compromised by coups, assassinations, and complicity in the international trade in drugs and guns. The compromised intelligence persons were assisted by their Cosa Nostra partners.

The facilitating order organized the failure of the anti-Castro plots and kept its machinery in position, set up the False Sponsors through intelligence assets acting as conduits, and passed the murder contract through Organized Crime mediators to Texas and Dallas personae. The initiating order had a network of financial ties to the Southwest and specifically to Texas, and so the facilitating order included crucial elements of the so-called “Southern Rim.”

The “shooters”? The executing order at Dealey Plaza was made up of Dallas police, Dallas plainclothes officers, and Dallas area Treasury agents (Secret Service and ATF)—or hired Southwest assassins with local and federal law enforcement credentials impersonating those law persons—or both. The intelligence facilitating mediators were in close contact with the Dealey Plaza assassins.

False Sponsorship:

The False Sponsors of the assassination constitute a checklist of the usual suspects in the JFK assassination, either alone or in various combinations. What has frustrated productive analysis of these suspects and blocked the discovery of the framing of the False Sponsors has been the collapsing of the three orders of assassination: originating, energizing, and executing, first deliberately by the assassination planners; and second, inadvertently, by JFK researchers and writers. The primary initiators were not the primary facilitators, and the primary facilitators were not the primary operators.

Researchers who have uncritically accepted False Sponsorship disinformation or who have developed their own theory of the assassination similar to the False Sponsorship fiction have sometimes extended their choice of sponsor to control of the post-assassination autopsy, or the subsequent (and on-going) cover-up, or both: see, for example, John Davis’ Organized Crime/Carlos Marcello hypothesis (with Marcello neutralizing J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI). The autopsy cover-up and the post-autopsy cover-up, however, were engineered by the U.S. military and the Federal government respectively.

The False Sponsor program implicated a series of anti-JFK groups and organizations as the planners, organizers, and executors of the murder of JFK. Since each False Sponsor was already equipped with admitted anti-Kennedy political motives, what was developed further was the False Sponsor’s means or opportunity or both to murder JFK.

He then goes on to name 15 FALSE SPONSOR Entities. Not one touches upon this ultra elite 1% of the 1% but only suggests them via the Facilitator level - where most researchers incorrectly place the Sponsorship of this crime

From some other research I came across:

Bell Helicopter was a member of the Aircraft Manufacturers Association, like Lockheed, Martin-Marietta and the General Dynamics Corporation. This Association was represented by Albert Jenner when it was a defendant in a Federal antitrust lawsuit. Albert Jenner went over Ruth Paine's account of OSWALD with her on the morning that she testified. [WC Paine Testimony p455]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21719&page=15#entry300186 expands on the Textron/Bell purchase and the rest of this thread's topics

It seems to me then. that the "initiators" as Mr. E calls them - the Sponsors - are just as knowable and identifiable as the other members of the heirarchy. Will there be Invisible Sponsors that we simply can never know due to how they insulate themselves? Of course. Yet to state that a Sponsor cannot be known and all those who are named are by definition False, does a terrible disservice to those unraveling this mess document by document, involved entity by entity.

I've had this discussion elsewhere on the internet and was summarily shut down for going against the grain and trying to forward what Michael Evica wrote. Did Mr. E change his mind about these declarations? As I have not read all his work I could not tell you... maybe those who have and are intimate with the writings and POV can step up and let us know if this 1995 conclusion ever changed.

There are a great number of wonderful minds here -

Does the community truly feel that a visible, name Sponsor is by definition False? and that we can never know who the Sponsors are... I for one think Mr. E was dead on with this work which opens the door to understanding the Textron/Bell business and the entities swirling around that transaction.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11439 - thread on "A Certain Arrogance" which also delves deep into the who's who of the assassination.

What was Walter Rostow's reason for influencing world opinion... his stake in the outcome? I think it was the Middle East, JFK's policy towards aid to Israel (including nuclear weapons), and countering Soviet influence in the region at the time

"When Kennedy became president in 1961 he appointed Rostow as deputy to his national security assistant, McGeorge Bundy. Later that year he became chairman of the state department's policy planning council."

Bundy reorganized his role from adviser to policy creator while streamlining the process and bypassing oversight. That Rostow was at the center of Bundy's plans which was heavily hawkish on Vietnam and in turn on anything affecting the dominoes falling toward USSR is a big part of your answer.

What Jim and others help us remember is there was a big world out there... Vietnam was only a small part of Kennedy's foreign policy over which so many were concerned.

And of course it leads back to the Wise Men and in turn the shadows of the sponsors... Alsop's list is both sponsor and false-sponsor filled...

Bundy, to me, is the key to seeing how the MIC got their agenda forwarded and how the presidency was put directly under the Nat'l Security Apparatus' thumb in the guise of more poser to the executive branch. - yet none of those in this chain of command are elected - they all "advise".

Thanks all, great thread... I had not given the Rostow's enough attention...