David Josephs

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I guess this has been talked about to death, but I was just a little curious about who was present when Brennan was confronted with Oswald.

I've gone through the lineups in the DPD Archives, and the only place I found one was in Box 6, Folder# 1, Item# 73, page 3.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm

Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at the showup at which Brennan was the witness?
Mr. FRITZ. Brennan?
Mr. McCLOY. Brennan was the alleged----
Mr. FRITZ. Is that the man that the Secret Service brought over there, Mr. Sorrels brought over?
Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether Mr. Sorrels----
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I was present but I will tell you what, I helped Mr. Sorrels find the time that that man--we didn't show that he was shown at all on our records, but Mr. Sorrels called me and said he did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. I asked him to find out from his officers who were with Mr. Brennan the names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two Davis sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, I could tell what showup it was and then I gave him the time.
Mr. McCLOY. But you were not present to the best of your recollection when Brennan was in the showup?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe I was there, I doubt it.

 

Mr. Sorrels. And when they came down there with him, I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, Mr. Brennan.
He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."

So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room,

 

So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he could.
And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can move up forward."
They did bring Oswald in in a lineup.

He looked very carefully, and then we rooted him up closer and so forth

Mr. STERN - How many other people were in the lineup?
Mr. SORRELS - As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told there was five or six--I don't remember. I believe there were five.

 

(At the 7:55 PM lineup with the Davis sisters, there were four people in the lineup)

 

In their WC testimony, neither C.W. Brown or C.N. Dhority make any mention of this lineup with Brennan and Sorrels. They were the police officers with the Davis sisters at 7:55 PM. Brown attended all four of the lineups. Fritz had to ask Sorrels who was there and to find out from his Officers who was there.

 

So, who was the “we” that Sorrels talked about?

 

Steve Thomas

 

So Item #3 says that they "witnessed this line-up" - not necessarily a line-up for Brennan's sake.

Brown and Dhority were at the 6:30, not the 7:55 it seems.  The "officers with witness" were with Barbara, not Brennan.  As I read it Steve, it appears the Barbara line-up was crashed by Sorrels and Brennen.  

The other DPD men were simply not involved and since he "Failed to ID" why would they make more of that in a report  or testimony?

With regards to the use of "WE",  it seems he uses "we" as the preferred pronoun regardless.  "We" in the case you name refers to he and Brennan.. FWIW

DJ

Mr. SORRELS - I did not talk to Oswald again, and I was around there. When I contacted Washington, I was informed that Inspector Kelley was being directed to be there, and he would be there later on that evening, that they had caught him out on the road, and he would come there to help out.
I also got information to Captain Fritz that I had this witness, Brennan, that I had talked to, and that I would like very much for him to get a chance to see Oswald in a lineup. And Captain Fritz said that would be fine.
So I instructed Special Agent Patterson, I believe it was, after I had located Brennan---had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he wasn't at home. And they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help me locate him, and she, as I recall it, said that she would see if she could locate him by phone. I called her, I believe, the second time and finally got a phone number and called him and told him we would like for him to come down and arrange for him to meet one of our agents to pick him up at the place there. And when they came down there with him, I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, Mr. Brennan.
He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."
So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also where they have the lineup, and Mr. Brennan, upon arrival at the police station, said, "I don't know if I can do you any good or not, because I have seen the man that they have under arrest on television," and he said. "I just don't know whether I can identify him positively or not" because he said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his shirt was open or something like that, and he said "The man I saw was not in that condition."
So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he could.
And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can move up forward."
They did bring Oswald in in a lineup.
He looked very carefully, and then we rooted him up closer and so forth, and he said, "I cannot positively say."
I said, "Well, is there anyone there that looks like him?"
He said, "Well, that second man from the left," who was Oswald--"he looks like him."
Then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled.

And just for sh#ts and giggles - using that same LEE photo - notice the shadows fall the same exact same way as the BYP yet the nose shadows are as different as they can be...

"Sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places,  if you look at it right...."

Fair enough... I think you took my sentence a bit too harshly though...  I never worte you couldn't post here...not even close.

All I said was a "real discourse" can begin once you get out of your tiny comfort zone and look at more of the evidence.

The gif shows that this person's face in the two images do not match.  The relationship between ears, mouth and eyes, which does not change on a person over time, does not match.  Amazes me how you can take victory laps on subjective analysis - but hey, whatever.

I spent 2+ years working thru every item of evidence with John.  Some was definitely, and admittedly the result of speculation and highly circumstantial evidence.  Yet none of this evidence stand alone on an island but is the culmination of years and years of compiling and noting the conflicts.

As you've said Tracy, this thread has to do with images of Marge...  

When you get a chance, read thru the testimonies of those who knew the 2 different women.  If you can't find Testimony you can try the footnotes section of H&L and track down the sources yourself.

In 1960 when these women see Lee's actual mother in New Orleans, our Harvey's MO is living in Texas at 1410 Hurley way.

After this sighting in New Orleans we do not have another instance involving Lee's real mother, just like we do not have an image of Lee after his 1959 passport photo. 
There is more if you read Lillian Murret and her husband's testimony... It mirrors Pic's and others stating that "Lee" was not the man that left, he was small, talkative and nothing like the class leading, thick-necked marine we see in the photos.  While it makes sense he would bulk up during the marines - going from the 5'8" 130lb 18 year old to the 5'11 150+ lb 20 year old...  can you explain how he then goes back to 5'9" and 135lbs by the time he's 24?

And just for you Tracy, Attached is a collage if it can help you in any way.  Before that though...  what's up with the 2 Marge's in 1960 - one seeing friends in New Oreleans and the other on Hurley in Ft Worth.  Then read HER testimony and let me know how many errors in her own history she brings up....

DJ

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0074a.htm
 

p19 H&L
In the summer of 1943 the tall, nice-looking -Marguerite Oswald answered an
advertisement in the newspaper for a sales position in a New Orleans hosiery shop.35 She
applied and was hired by Mrs. Oris Duane, the manager of Jean's Hosiery, located at 727
Canal Street. She remembered Mrs. Oswald as a good worker who always had a neat
appearance.

p214 H&L
By studying FBI interviews with neighbors, and the Warren Commission testimony
of John Pic and Robert Oswald, we learn that their mother worked at Clyde
Campbell's Men's Store (Fort Worth, 1956), the City of Fort Worth (1957), Paul's Shoe
Store (Fort Worth, 1957), Family Publications, and Cox's Department Store (Fort Worth,
1958-59). In 1959 the tall, nice-looking, well-dressed Marguerite Oswald returned to
New Orleans where she continued her usual occupation of working in clothing stores.
Mrs. Logan Magruder, who had known Marguerite for nearly 20 years, saw her at
Krieger's, while Mrs. Oris Duane, who had known her since 1943, saw and spoke with
her at Goldrings.115 Marguerite Oswald was last seen in New Orleans in 196q-1961.  

==========

In 1960, two women that were good friends with Marguerite Oswald, Mrs. Logan Magruder and Mrs. Oris Duane both reporting meeting her in New Orleans. (This was the tall, attractive version.) Both women spoke to her at the time. Mrs. Magruder saw and chatted with her while working in Kreiger’s Department store and Mrs. Duane saw and spoke to her in Goldring’s Department store selling dresses. A conflict arrises here as the Warren Commission states that Marguerite was supposed to have moved out of New Orleans in June of 1956 to Ft. Worth, Texas never to return. In September of 1960 she moved to Boyd Texas, north of Ft. Worth and opened a small variety shop on Main street and opened a bank account at the Continental State Bank. Yet, here are two women who had been friends with Marguerite since the 1940’s who say they saw and spoke to her where she should not have been. Apparently the FBI never investigated this lead in Louisiana. http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2010/01/marguerite-oswald-as-doppelganger.html 

Here are some other photos you can use as well.  I tried to size the two images in th gif to the mouth and still the ears cannot match, and if I try to match the ears, the rest doesn't match.  Not definitive by any means... just food for thought.

As there only being a small handful of evidence - as the UK site suggests - is a terrible understatement of fact.  

One of the greatest being his time in the Phillipines.  Unit Diaries put him there, His CO Donovan puts him there.. yet the DoD tries to claim he never left Atsugi while his medical records all have him receiving treatment in Atsugi.  Donovan admits to being forgetful during his WCR testimony and then we learn he was FBI from 1953-56.

Also included is the DoD declaration that he never went to Taiwan. and the Unit Diary showing he not only went, but returned as well..   ooops.

Please don't insult those of us who have actually taken the time to research the evidence to state all this is based on some photographic interpretation and hearsay.

This is only the tip of an iceberg I'm sure you are not prepared to take on but for one bite here and there.  When you can address ALL the evidence, not just what you believe to be low hanging fruit that you can attack, we can begin a real discourse on the topic.  

So how about start with this.  Prove the evidence does not support two men, both named Lee Oswald with one in Atsugi and the other in the Philippines at the same time.

Thanks

A colorized version to help differentiate between people...

All valid points Steve....  

I just have found that approaching this logically usually leads in the wrong direction...

Sandy,  

I posted this not because of the repeating of the Baker story but of Bookout's telling of the Shelley part of the story.  Oswald eating lunch outside with Shelley happening well after the assassination and the supposed Baker encounter creates a timeline that allows Oswald and Shelley to be back out on the landing about 6-10 minutes after the shooting.

I am 100% convinced the Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never happened.  Just look at how the WC handles the Baker Affidavit in his testimony.

If their story is true then his affidavit is a lie.  I've made the point before that without the lunchroom added, the person coming down the stairs 1-2 flights higher up is much closer to the sniper's nest area as well as the rifle's resting place by these stairs on the 6th floor.  The description is even fairly close.

If this was Oswald, why change the story during testimony?  If this was not Oswald, who works at the TSBD fitting that description and was not out front?

I do not believe that Baker is scatterbrained and completely neglected to write his affidavit, the SAME DAY, telling the same story as his testimony would so many months later.
There must have been a reason to swap one story for the other and the ID of the person on the stairs is possibly our answer.

As for rendering moot the statement that he was out front with Shelley - what does the Baker encounter have to do with that? Your timeline fits better with Oswald meeting up with Shelley after he returns with Lovelady and goes out front (if that's what he did)

I don't want to derail the thread with Baker discussions when we are talking about Shelley and Lovelady.  
One must think though, did the whole thing hinge on Oswald staying inside for those 30 seconds or would there be contingency plans for all possibilities?

I for one believe in their contingency planning which is why there were so many "SS imposters" in DP... they were the clean-up crew to get photos and films.  I come to learn on a side note that Jaggers-Chile-Stovall was only blocks from DP and had photographic alteration equipment that no other companies in the area had...  if photos needed fixing quickly (Altgens 6 comes to mind) JCS could do it and quickly.  Food for thought...

Sandy,

Bookout describes Oswald's interrogation responses like this:

It suggests that Shelley was the source for Oswald leaving for Home.  But it also plays a little havoc with the timeline you've offered.

Also wondering why "SHELLEY" is almost removed, twice.   Can Shelley telling the truth work with this? - this is the only interrogation report that mentions this - I believe.

Looking thru the entire list I found another steno with MM initials...  There were MANY officers from Traffic involved that day...
just another possibility

TRAFFIC DIVISION Mullican, Madge, Stenographer-Secretary 6

(on a side note I believe this Sorrells is related to our Sorrells....Sorrells, Eunice, (Chief's) Secretary 8 and the only office staff at a level 8)

deleted

deleted -

From what we've been able to find it appears that only 2 copies have the 6pm correction:

In Box 15 of the DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111.
and Box 5 file 3 item #3

Yet as you say Steve, these changes did not make ce2003 or CD81.  I did the same exercise as Alistair.
"4th" is written over to make it "3rd"

On pages 10 and 11 there are also changes trying to keep the # of interviews correct. 

A 3rd interview occurs Sat the 23rd at 12:35.  a 4th interview happens at 6pm (does this actually happen?)
while a 5th interview at 9:30 am is changed to 4th.

The other problem is they missed a significant change..  At the end of the first paragraph on page 10 "He is placed back in jail at 1:10 PM"

Changing 12:35 to 6 pm on page 9, then reiterating 6 pm on page 10 forgets that he was placed back in jail.  The page 9 6 pm is a CYA for the photograph statement since the train of thought is completed regarding the 12:35-1:10 pm interview at the top of page 10.  Can't "bring him back in" if he never left....

Steve - your question, "what good would it accomplish" ie to change draft versions after the final has been produced....  The time conflict was just never recognized.  
 

Could these changes have been made in preparation for Fritz's book?  (edit - Fritz didn't write one... did he)

Well done everyone...

Imagine the horror on Fritz's face when he realizes he asked AND SHOWED Oswald these prints before the evidence shows they were available to him.

And for certain 133-C existed at this time since Det Brown is placed in that exact pose 13 years before it becomes public.

Rose will testify to seeing 1 print with 2 negatives... and then proceeds to forget the photo and ultimately lose one of these negatives...
1 negative to create 3 images....

Steve - if there was no Sat evening lineup...

Mr. BALL. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later that day? 
Mr. ROSE. On Saturday evening--that Saturday evening. 
Mr. BALL. What time? 
Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around 9 or 10 o'clock, I don't remember. 
Mr. BALL. Who was present? 
Mr. ROSE. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself--I don't remember--there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but I don't remember their names. 

what's Rose here talking about?,  he goes on to describe the showing of the BYP to Oswald?  
 

Mr. BALL. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office? 
Mr. ROSE. In Captain Fritz' office--yes. Well, the occasion was--I got back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain said, "Well, is that you face on the picture?" And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I remember that part of it distinctly. I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in Russia. 

I read some work on the Altgens 6 timeline suggesting that Jaggers, which was central to AP/City Hall and DMN and where Oswald worked, had the most advanced photographic manipulation equipment in the US and was set up specifically to make changes to images and create new negatives.  food for thought.

Thank Alistair!

That's the trouble with lies, a few little mistakes in the retelling of them makes them stand out like a sore thumb.

I'm convinced those images the photos that is, were already at the DPD.  After the fact we learn from the CSSS reports that no photos were brought in when if they had actually found negatives and matching photos they would have kept them together on a single CSSS form.

I believe it is Stovall who claims that these were included in the BLUE SUITCASE as "Misc photos and maps" yet when the FBI's HOSTY recaps what was in that suitcase, the lists do not even come clse to each other...  200 circulars?

Anyway, the ONLY reference to evidence that calls out found PHOTOS is that reference.  I personally believe Rose/Stovall brought the negatives with them.

Steve - you make a great point about the jacket for a line up that never happens but DOES happen at 2:15.  Makes sense that the 12:35pm interview which lasts a while would include this comment...as they transition to this line-up.  makes perfect sense - yes?

Regarding Klein's and Waldman...  I did quite a bit of work published at ctka on the Rifle evidence*.  I found that there exists both a report stating the film was given to DOLAN of the FBI, signed only by Dolan...  and another 2 pages earlier with all 3 FBI agents who investigated at Kleins, signing that WALDMAN kept the film in his own safe (last attachment).  The other document reports Waldman making a comment about the Dodd committee "on his back". 

I'd theorize that the connection of Dodd's committee and Kleins and the FBI is well more than a coincidence. Waldman could only have been the right guy from Kleins to subpeona if they needed to stay away from the truth.  Michael Scibor was also at Kleins that night with Waldman.  The most unique night in his life with his assisting the FBI catch the killer of POTUS  and he "was very uncooperative and evasive".  ??

Add in the US Postal Inspector Holmes whose story of that day conflicts with virtually every bit of evidence and yet again we have a corner of the conspiracy which is FUBAR....  

... enough of that, Happy Holiday and New Years to everyone...  healthy happy New Year.
DJ

* https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf 

On 12/29/2016 at 2:44 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Maybe to many, but not to Sims and Boyd of the DPD.

Following the assassination, Detectives Richard M. Sims and Elmer L. Boyd of the Homicide and Robbery Bureau filed a joint after-action report with Police Chief Jesse Curry. In their undated report, Sims and Boyd wrote, “Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day took pictures of the rifle. Mr. Pinkston of the F.B.I. and a Secret Service Agent were there at the time the pictures were being made. We don’t know the Secret Service agent’s name. Mr. Ellsworth and another officer from Alcohol Tax Department were also there.

They knew enough to distinguish between the FBI, Secret Service and ATTU.

"Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims. No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No, 840. Dallas Police archives Box 3 Folder # 4, as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

Considering we know that no SS agents were in the TSBD at this time either they are reassigning someone to the SS who they do not want to name, someone NOT SS pretended to be with credentials via Holt's story, or there really was a SS agent there... again, it seems to me that anyone who could cause a problem later had their name conveniently forgotten and by officers who appear to know the names of just about everyone else.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=631&tab=page 
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=9&tab=page

Both of these state the time for the 3rd interview as 12:35pm so if these are the corrected version they dropped the 6pm 3rd interview time... OR those with the corrections were done well after the fact.  Fritz's notes reflect a 6:35pm time as I posted yet I feel that the 11:25 scratched out would have been to account for the hour before he was questioned again.

Do you know if anything is recorded for what happened between 11:30 and 12:30 on Saturday?

Indeed Robin...

And that camera speed....

http://shikan.org/bjones/Moviecam/Keystone-K32/k-32_p7.html

Her camera, like Zapruder's and Towner's and Nix's ran at either 12 or 16 frames per second or at slo-mo speeds of 24 and 48 fps.

Like Zapruder the FBI changed the speed of the camera so it would appear as if more frames are taken and thereby speeding up the amount of time actually elapsed.   NPIC did a 16 fps analysis on Zapruder that weekend as well.

Shaneyfelt's testimony does not contradict Muchmore's statement about not taking assassination images,

Dulles: You think she did?
Shaneyfelt: On the film there are pictures

And although the FBI's Gauthier delivers WCD298 to the Commissioners on January 20th which specifically identifies WCD298 as a complete & accurate representation of what happened, the FBI's Shaneyfelt will be involved with 6 more surveys resulting in the movement and/or replacement of every single measurement from the first 3 surveys.   With regards to January 27, the FBI performs another survey (Dec 2,3,4 was for the SS even though it becomes the backbone for the FBI's WCD298) on February 7, 1964.

Shaneyfelt being involved in "analysis" of this data only 1 week later and only 1 week prior to them doing another survey is very revealing to me.  Especially since WEST's 2/7 notes arrive at the same conclusion as the 12/5 SS Dec survey...  final shot at elevation 416.83 at station 4+95, not 4+65.  

All the Muchmore JFK frames determine is that the head shot happens exactly where everyone says it does... and in less time than any man can work the bolt and fire again, another shot 30 feet down Elm hits a target as the limo is speeding away.

The problem we have... if 4+95 was not really a shot...  where can the FBI put a 3rd shot and still keep the Boom.....Boom..Boom sequence... surely not up at 156 where many believe a shot was fired.

Overarching concern for the FBI was how to turn the reality of 4-8 shots into 3 and only 3?  

Initially they had 3 shot locations: 423.07, 418.35 & 416.83 - until ce884.  All are street level elevations where 1' vertical = 18.3' horizontal.  Since it takes over 2 seconds to work the Carcano (37 frames)  there MUST also be at least a 2 foot vertical change in JFK's location.  yet we only have 418.35 - 416.83 = 1.52 feet

1.52 * 18.3 =  28 frames = 2 shooters so the third shot goes away, shot #2 becomes shot #3, shot #1 move up Elm 12 feet and becomes the SBT at frame 207 (with JC reacting after 224 a second later) and NO SHOTS before adjusted z207.

Which Shots Missed?  The ones taken by a second or third shooter down by the foot of the GK stairs and the ones at the top of Elm accounting for the splices at 156/157 and 207-212.

On 12/28/2016 at 3:38 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

You can also find this interrogation report rough draft in Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111. This version is before the corrections and stenogropher's writing.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

 

It wasn't unusual for the police officers (and probably representatives of other other government agencies like the FBI and Secret Service) to review and correct their statements multiple times before submitting them. As Kenneth Croy told the Warren Commission in his testimony regarding his Report to Curry on his duties on the 24th:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/croy.htm

 

Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that up. That is how interested they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?
Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 hours each day. That is pretty interesting.

Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.

 

I found three things in Fritz's Interrogation Report that were interesting to me:

1) On page 4 of the Notes, he wrote that Tippit was arraigned before Judge Johnston at 7:10 PM. What was interesting is that Fritz didn't catch that in the Report in Box 15 when he corrected and changed the Report that you find in Box 1.

2) On Page 2 of that Report, Fritz said he got a call from Shanklin that Shanklin wanted Hosty in on the interview, because Hosty "knew about these people and had had been investigating them before".

What's that all about?

3) Also on Page 2, Fritz wrote that in addition to Sims and Boyd of the Homicide Bureau being present at Oswald's first interrogation, there were also "possibly some Secret Service men". This was corroborated by Sims, Boyd, M.W. Stevenson, and Chief Curry of the DPD. I have searched for this Secret Service agent, or agents and I don't know who this could be. I wrote a piece on this a while back called, Secret Service, On the Knoll and Beyond that you can find here if you're interested:

 

Steve Thomas

Interesting thoughts Steve...  I am still amazed how every single change removes a problem for the conspirators and makes Oswald look more guilty.

This is the page - draft p9 which claims Oswald was returned to his cell at 11:33 am with another interview starting at 12:35.

This must be a revised page, still rough draft, that places him back in his cell at 1:10pm on the 23rd.

 

Yet his notes tell yet a different story.  Note #2 on the below composited page states:

2nd interview 23rd
Present 10:35-11:34

So what do you suppose happens between 11:35 and 1:10 that Fritz first recalls a 3rd interview at 12:35 pm which needs to be changed to 6:00 pm while 11:35 is changed to 1:10... when does Fritz recall the photo (negatives) did not arrive at DPD until around 4pm?

This is Box 1 Folder 15 where the archives say the rest of the "typed draft"   Steve, do we know where the final report is?

You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know Tommy.

Deal with the evidence presented, not your opinions.

1. Not only talking about "looks" Tommy...  there is much more evidence offered than some photos.  
   Can you explain with evidence how an incoming 5'4" 115lb 7th grader in Sept 1952 becomes a 4'10" 90lb 9th grader by Aug 1953
    
2. Typographical errors?  Shown some examples of your conclusion here Tommy...  you saying so carries no weight at all.
    
3. When there is corroboration for these memories they gain more and more weight regardless of the time involved.  
   Again, this is you just listing things you can't understand - use some examples so those reading this can see how empty your attacks remain.
    
4. Your limited understanding of Popov's Mole shines thru Tommy.  Let me know when you've connected the FBI/CIA evidence for Oswald going to and coming from Mexico City with Popov's Mole hunt ala Simpich/Scott.  The evidence of activities at the Mexico City consulates have nothing to do with where Harvey or Lee were at the time other than Phillip's asset Alvarado coming forth on Nov 23rd to tell his interesting story.
   
   Rebutting one discussion with statements about another is effective at changing the subject...  and reveals how little you understand about Mexico City or H&L.  
    

I can appreciate you having an opinion Tommy, but then you hope one of your buddies comes along to present evidence to support your adopted position.

Let's not deal with the photos at all...  why would the DoD lie about where Harvey was when he was in Ping Tung?

On Sept 16, 1958 "Oswald" is both in Ping Tung and at MACS-1 US-NAS NAVY 3835.  58-12.jpg is the 9/14 Diary showing Oswald leaving for Ping Tung
Yet on Sept 20, 22, 23, & 29th he is seeing a doctor at MACS-1.  We have Donovan and others confirming Oswald at Ping Tung along with the Unit Diaries.

Your opinions notwithstanding Tommy, try a discussion WITHOUT your opinion.  Use facts, or evidence agreed upon as factual to counter this specific H&L topic..

Please know that I really couldn't care about your opinion posts unless it's backed with something concrete.
Stay on topic Tommy... we are discussion the EVIDENCE for H&L as I have provided with each post...  there's more below for you to express your opinions...

 Can you offer anything that actually attempts to convince us you've studied the topic and have a clue about what you are arguing about...

... or just more opinions... ?

No doubt Robin's work is always top notch....  

Just curious what you make of this statement by Muchmore claiming she "panicked after this (first) shot ran back to the office".
How did she wind up getting such clear images of the shot at 313 - where a few frames prio the image goes from jumping all over the place to almost perfect?

And does anyone else notice the frames where everything is in focus yet she is panning from right to left...?  Doesn't that suggests the limo is stopped or barely moving...
which in turn is the only way Hill can catch the limo in only a few steps...  If both were moving at 11 mph the minute Hill hits the ground the Queen Mary would keep up with the limo and possibly even pass Hill.  The limo at this point cannot be moving at more than 2-3 mph if at all.

Some some food for thought when considering "Muchmore's" film evidence.

On 12/27/2016 at 2:49 PM, David Josephs said:

Luckily we had someone befriend ROBERT WEST and get from him the notes related to the 3 surveys done prior to the WC which in turn was prompted by a memo from Redlich to Rankin on April 27, 1964...

In each of these 3 surveys, shot #2 is found to have been in relatively the same spot based on vertical distances along the sloping Elm.
The Survey Plat which is shown in ce585 still shows the location for 3 shots hitting a target on Elm.  The final Survey done in May/June 1964 and related to ce884 is overlaid on ce585 showing the shots in relation to the yellow curbs.  The first curb with Moorman & Hill, 2nd Curb by Altgens and 3rd curb near the manhole cover.

Time/Life survey Nov 26th, SS/FBI Dec 2, 3, 4 creates WCD298 and ce875, February 7, 1964 FBI survey plat jives with other two regarding shot location for #2 at z313 4+65 and another shot when the bumper of the limo is over 4+96.  The same FBI agents: Shaneyfelt, Gauthier, Frazier, Rogge and Thompson who were involved in the Dec and Feb reenactments concluding a shot down by the stairs are involved with the WC and their desire to find out what exactly happened - despite the FBI and SS agreeing with the information in WCD298.

Maybe a reading of that memo would help clear things up?  How is it that by April 27, 1964 the Warren Commission does not know if the FBI/SS described scenarios are even physically possible...  what were the first three surveys about?  and why does the final survey contradict their earlier work dramatically?

C'mon Dave, this is direct evidence of the manipulation of evidence related to the shots, the zfilm and even Altgens' statements.  Attached as well is a composite showing how badly these recreations were related to Altgens...

 

• April 27, 1964
   

MEMORANDUM

TO:    J. Lee Rankin

FROM:    Norman Redlich

    The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why
certain members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain
on-site photographs in connection with the location of the approximate
points at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the
Presidential limousine.

    Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by
the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President
by the third and fatal bullet.  The report will also conclude that the
bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast
corner window of the TSBD building.

    As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown
that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested
above.  All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be
supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out
against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.

    Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal
third shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with
reasonable accuracy on the ground.  We can do this because we know the
exact frame (no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the
President and we know the location of the photographer.  By lining up
fixed objects in the movie frame where this shot occurs we feel that
we have determined the approximate location of this shot.  This can be
verified by a photo of the same spot from the point where Zapruder was
standing.

    We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the
Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably
cannot fix with precision.  We feel we have established, however, with
the help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor
did not come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film.  The governor feels
that it came around 230, which is certainly consistent with our
observations of the film and with the doctor's testimony.  Since the
President was shot at frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4
seconds between the two shots, certainly ample for even an
inexperienced marksman.

    Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally
we had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed
behind the sign which occurs between frames 215-225.  We have expert
testimony to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a
minimum 2 seconds between shots with this rifle.  Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots.  It is apparent, therefore, that if
Governor Connally was even as late as frame 240, the President would
have to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even
earlier.

    We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine
whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to
frame 190.  We could locate the position on the ground which
corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish
by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the
President prior to this point.  Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,
but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.

    I had always assumed that our final report would be
accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the
approximate location of the three shots.  We certainly cannot prepare
such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an
occurrence which is physically possible.  Our failure to do this will,
in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty
that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same
questions which have been raised by our examination of the films.  If
we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer
them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with
fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions
by the investigatory methods available to us.

    I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service,
are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.
 
    It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the
FBI and Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a
staff project.  The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.

 

 

 

 

Bumping for DVP...  

Wondering when a third party surveyor's accurate data becomes the FBI/SS's "opinions" ??

WCD298 was designed to explain the assassination and understand the particulars "without having to be there" as Gauthier puts it...

Wondering also why the FBI needed to make so many "adjustments" to these 3 accurate plats in order to come up with the impossible ce884 limo designations...

Mr. GAUTHIER. Our data to build this were compiled on December 2, 3, and 4. It took about 5 weeks to prepare this exhibit in Washington. 

The attached images shows the 12/5 plat with shot #3 down by 5+00 as CE875 tells us, no photo was taken at 5+00 as this was the impact of the 3rd shot.
It also shows the determination of the location for shot #1 10.2 feet further down Elm than what the WCR finally offers

The distance from 207 to 208 in the original ce884 is 2.3 feet in a single frame x 18.3 fps = 42.09 feet per second = 28.7 mph.
ce884 changes this to 210 bringing the speed down to 2.3/3 = .77 feet per frame x 18.3 = 14.03 feet per second = 9.57 mph yet there is no "210" on the WCR plat or legend while the location for 210 is exactly the same as the original 208.

The surveyor was unaware of how the FBI changed the legend for ce884.  Anyone reading how this revised legend gets into evidence can do little but shake their head...

How can a survey made in May 1964 be the basis for a display of data in January,  Dave?

Mr. GAUTHIER. Our data to build this were compiled on December 2, 3, and 4. It took about 5 weeks to prepare this exhibit in Washington
::::
Mr. SPECTER. Did you participate in the onsite tests made in Dallas? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. I did. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was a survey made of the scene used to record some of the results of that onsite testing? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. And by whom was the survey made? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. The survey was made on May 24, 1964, by Robert H. West, county surveyor, a licensed State land surveyor, located at 160 County Courthouse, Dallas, Tex. 
Mr. SPECTER. Have you brought the tracing of that survey with you today? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. I have; yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. And have you brought a cardboard reproduction of that? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. A copy made from the tracing; yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the cardboard copy made from the tracing for the inspection of the Commission at this time, please? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. Would you produce the tracing at this time, please? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container. 
Mr. SPECTER. Without breaking the seal, I will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. I will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute. 
Does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand? 
Mr. GAUTHIER. Yes.

And the new legend is slipped into the record - the FBI and Specter vouching for a copy of a tracing of a copy of an original sealed in a container and NEVER opened.  Luckily thru Tom Purvis we have the original notes of the surveys done prior to May 1964 which shows the alteration and manipulation of evidence resulting in ce884 and a path down Elm which never happened as described.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a schedule which I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 884 and ask you what figures are contained thereon.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 884 for identification.) 
Mr. GAUTHIER. This is a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map.
It contains certain positions marked as frame numbers. It indicates elevations and a column dealing with angle of sight from the frame positions to the window and to a horizontal line. 
It also contains angels of sight the degree of sight and distances from these positions to a point on the top of the bridge, handrail height. 
Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission, that concludes the description of the general setting. 
I would like to move now at this time for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 884, which completes all of the exhibits used heretofore. 
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted. 

Old topics never die they just need a new POV...  

I remember looking into the different shorthand styles - luckily here at the state we have many who were able to decipher it for me.

Add now that Frasier gets ce399 at 7:30 from Elmer Todd yet Todd does not get ce399 from Rowley until 8:50pm and we begin to see how the FBI and SS worked together to create the lone nut story.  ce399 was, imo, fired from the Carcano in DC... whether that night or well prior, probably prior since the FBI experts did not test to see if the Carcano was fired that day...

I've done a few things on Kennedys and Kings (ctka.net)  related to the rifle & BYP evidence...  check them out if interested...

DJ

 

On 6/30/2015 at 11:50 AM, David Von Pein said:

Glenn,

That obviously was a fairly early evaluation (and OPINION) concerning the timing of the three shots, which was put together for the Warren Commission shortly after the WC began doing its work on the case. And the timing of the shots as seen in that FBI report (CD298) is quite clearly in error. The last shot is now widely believed to be the head shot, which is quite clearly occurring at Z313.

Luckily we had someone befriend ROBERT WEST and get from him the notes related to the 3 surveys done prior to the WC which in turn was prompted by a memo from Redlich to Rankin on April 27, 1964...

In each of these 3 surveys, shot #2 is found to have been in relatively the same spot based on vertical distances along the sloping Elm.
The Survey Plat which is shown in ce585 still shows the location for 3 shots hitting a target on Elm.  The final Survey done in May/June 1964 and related to ce884 is overlaid on ce585 showing the shots in relation to the yellow curbs.  The first curb with Moorman & Hill, 2nd Curb by Altgens and 3rd curb near the manhole cover.

Time/Life survey Nov 26th, SS/FBI Dec 2, 3, 4 creates WCD298 and ce875, February 7, 1964 FBI survey plat jives with other two regarding shot location for #2 at z313 4+65 and another shot when the bumper of the limo is over 4+96.  The same FBI agents: Shaneyfelt, Gauthier, Frazier, Rogge and Thompson who were involved in the Dec and Feb reenactments concluding a shot down by the stairs are involved with the WC and their desire to find out what exactly happened - despite the FBI and SS agreeing with the information in WCD298.

Maybe a reading of that memo would help clear things up?  How is it that by April 27, 1964 the Warren Commission does not know if the FBI/SS described scenarios are even physically possible...  what were the first three surveys about?  and why does the final survey contradict their earlier work dramatically?

C'mon Dave, this is direct evidence of the manipulation of evidence related to the shots, the zfilm and even Altgens' statements.  Attached as well is a composite showing how badly these recreations were related to Altgens...

• April 27, 1964
   

MEMORANDUM

TO:    J. Lee Rankin

FROM:    Norman Redlich

    The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why
certain members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain
on-site photographs in connection with the location of the approximate
points at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the
Presidential limousine.

    Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by
the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President
by the third and fatal bullet.  The report will also conclude that the
bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast
corner window of the TSBD building.

    As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown
that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested
above.  All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be
supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out
against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.

    Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal
third shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with
reasonable accuracy on the ground.  We can do this because we know the
exact frame (no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the
President and we know the location of the photographer.  By lining up
fixed objects in the movie frame where this shot occurs we feel that
we have determined the approximate location of this shot.  This can be
verified by a photo of the same spot from the point where Zapruder was
standing.

    We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the
Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably
cannot fix with precision.  We feel we have established, however, with
the help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor
did not come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film.  The governor feels
that it came around 230, which is certainly consistent with our
observations of the film and with the doctor's testimony.  Since the
President was shot at frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4
seconds between the two shots, certainly ample for even an
inexperienced marksman.

    Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally
we had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed
behind the sign which occurs between frames 215-225.  We have expert
testimony to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a
minimum 2 seconds between shots with this rifle.  Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots.  It is apparent, therefore, that if
Governor Connally was even as late as frame 240, the President would
have to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even
earlier.

    We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine
whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to
frame 190.  We could locate the position on the ground which
corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish
by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the
President prior to this point.  Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,
but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.

    I had always assumed that our final report would be
accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the
approximate location of the three shots.  We certainly cannot prepare
such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an
occurrence which is physically possible.  Our failure to do this will,
in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty
that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same
questions which have been raised by our examination of the films.  If
we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer
them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with
fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions
by the investigatory methods available to us.

    I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service,
are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.
 
    It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the
FBI and Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a
staff project.  The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.

I'm fairly sure it's just plain shorthand Alistair...  and the corroboration is Michael being asked to ID the location Friday night...

Mr. LIEBELER - Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President? 
Mr. PAINE - They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life. 

We know that the man in the shadows behind Lovelady in Altgens "may" be Shelley yet he is not longer over by the wall as Wesley claims.
For Lovelady to be a few steps in front of Wesley and for him not to be in Altgens, then Welsey is stating that he is Prayerman...

Even in Hughes with Lovelady a few steps in front of where PM would be seen, we ultimately get a photo fo Wesley and PM in the same frame, so PM could not have been Wesley, or Shelley, or Lovelady.  While I am of the opinion that PM has a very good chance at being Oswald, usually we are treated to FBI back-peddling over things like this.  The fact remains that not a soul even mistakenly mentions seeing Oswald, unless the questioning was done in such a way as to avoid that Q&A.

"Did you see Oswald during the assassination?" was asked...  With everyone watching JFK, of course no one sees Oswald during... yet there is also no instance of anyone mentioning Oswald on the steps - while in the same breath no one states they saw so-and-so as they came back into the TSBD...  Mrs. Reid is our best example since she sees an Oswald look alike in a T-shirt

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? 
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. 

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was. 
Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also. 

Mr. BALL - We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by. 
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here. 
Mr. BALL - I see. 
Mr. FRAZIER - Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me. 
Mr. BALL - Do you recognize this fellow? 
Mr. FRAZIER - That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady. 

Mr. BALL - Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That mark is Billy Lovelady? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago. 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 

I have a question Bart....

From all the work done we continually see Lovelady in the middle of the stairs by the railing.

Except in Hughes he appears to be standing just behind the blue shirted black man over in the corner... the angles are virtually identical.

When does Lovelady make his way across, away from where he is in Hughes to get to where he is only a second or so later in Couch/Darnell?

And would you say that PM is being these men at this time?

Thanks
DJ