David Josephs
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Posts posted by David Josephs
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Again Tracy, you are entitled to conclude whatever you like from the evidence offered...
People with that mentality decided in 1964 that Oswald did it alone based on the evidence, their interpretation skills and the need not to buck the system.
What amazes me is you all would rather spend all this time critiquing and so very little time coming up with explanations on your own to account for all these conflicts...
Voebal says, Myra says, Smith Says, Murret says...
The man in the grave was the man who Ruby killed... so what?
Why do you have such a hard time with the DoD and USMC records... of course they could be wrong... prove them wrong. simple.
Oswald is on the ship BACK from Taiwan on the 6th of Oct.... is the USMC so lost that they place a man left behind and receiving medical attention in Japan on a ship back from Taiwan? along with witnesses who worked with him in Taiwan and stated so, along with CE1961 which puts him in Taiwan... Which records are the mistaken ones?
Amazingly convenient that the records which show Lee and Harvey conflicts are wrong - based on your say so...
Felde was just wrong too? and everyone else witnessing the duality of the situation... wrong, wrong wrong...
So you tell us boys, what did they get right? anywhere, in any record? You've read the book Mr. LeDoux ? followed up on the sources yourself as you call Steve out?
I have... and sourced every single one... took 2 years and I compiled a side by side timeline to illustrate the conflicts... I know exactly when and where the problems occurred and what the WCR and HSCA did to try and cover them up.
What have you done?
edit: as for Steve's posts.. quite whining already. If you dont have the attention span to read for 15 whole minutes in a row WTF are you doing here? Hoping for fortune cookie one liners to explain the complexity of our history is a lazy, simple and unimaginative way to go about things boys.... is it really so tough for you to read an essay? or you simply dont want to be bothered trying to learn anything new from someone you disagree with for the simply joy of disagreeing?
It's one thing to present rebuttals and evidence and discuss where interpretation may be right or wrong... it's another to pull these "Bernie" posts out after asking idiotic rhetorical questions about what a twin is... grow up already and stop whining about long posts...
If they are too much for ya start a "explanations of the JFK situation in 10 words or less" thread and have at it... for the rest of us, we understand it takes a little time, effort and work to study this case... grow up already little boys... or find another sandbox to sit and cry in while the adults use the big words and write more than 3 rhetorical stupid lines of tautology and non-sequitur...
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No sooner does Greg mention the logical fallacy of "proof by verbosity" than Steve provides a textbook example.
Whether or not children were used in espionage, what Armstrong has yet to show is another example of the type of operation that he alleges H&L to be. That is, two unrelated boys recruited for some yet to be determined purpose that turns out to be the assignation of a President. Two boys who somehow look enough alike that their photos can be put together to create an ID. Not only that, but the plotters knew that the boys would not grow dissimilar in appearance as they grew older. I maintain that no such operation has ever existed.
and yet another raising of the bar Tracy? Where would one begin to accumulate the kind of data made available about Oswald's life - for no apparent reason other than to bury in a mountain who Oswald was and was involved in. ??
the purpose of this program having nothing to do with the JFK assassination at all. An operation involving decades and cold war spies ... and yet from what you've read along the way, the CIA is not capable of any of a hundred things we cannot fathom their planning and implementation. ?
My imagination is not so limited. And if I can imagine it, what's to say those whose job it was/is to think of these plans all the time would not consider an unassailable history for a spy to accomplish whatever was necessary. If Lee remained as be believe,he was the recruited super spy not Harvey... Harvey, in my opinion, was a refugee, eastern Europe, who the CIA thought it could use to keep an eye on other commies in this or other countries. He would grow to infiltrate these groups and report back to the FBI or whoever needed the info... he was doing his new country a valuable service.
the record of those who saw the little Harvey was pretty consistent with his attitude as a trouble maker and wise ass... always with a "I know something you don't" smirk....
The concept of looking at every available resource is something I believe Angleton mastered at and was the architect of this program.
Are there more? I would guess so...
deep cover is something I can't fully comprehend... especially to get assets against such a closed society as Russia.
how about you? you think you know enough of the world of spycraft to state 100% that this was not only possible but done and one of the reasons a cover and switch to lone nut was so necessary. again.. in my opinion from what I've learned so far...
You guys could be right... but I've seen so very little which undoes the basic premise or the evidence left behind...
If it is something else, no one has offered a comprehensive explanation - starting with the DoD and Taiwan...
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There is no conflict in the records regarding oswald's whereabouts in the marines. That is why Armstrong won't get a military experts opinion. It is why Newman (just such an expert) is not an board with Armstrong.
If the tooth was knocked out why is voebel the only person suggesting it was? Why was oswald taken to a dentist?
And please keep any reply under 200000 words. The verbal onslaught is a form of abuse on many eves and also qualifies as a logical fallacy known as "proof by verbosity". Within that, you always seem to pack inside three more logical fallacies.
For someone who claims to have all the Oswald answers - you sure ask a lot of clueless, pointless and rhetorical questions.
Terribly sorry for more than a handful of words and many of them multi-syllabic... I'll try not to tax your limited capabilities any longer...
Hey, here's a thought... go read the book as you would expect anyone attacking your work to have done... I know... 1000 pages is simply too much for you to be able to handle in one lifetime....
Sure does seem that ROKC refugees whine an awful lot about everything they don't understand and then resort to insults when the whining doesn't work... is that a class you offer over there?
Here's a thought, divide our long posts up among you and then when you can huddle up and trade insights before you come here and whine some more...
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The photo proves nothing
Only says you Greg... the rest of us have eyes. and yes, Voebel says it might have been knocked out...
You wrote:
"There is too much counter evidence for him going. I will adopt your position regarding the FBI. It is a lie and a cover-up. But not for any doppelganger program"
To the rest of us, this means you're agreeing that the evidence of his going to Taiwan COUNTERS the DoD lies about his not going. That he went and during this time a Lee Oswald was treated in Japan... Resolve the conflict Greg.
(edit - as I read your statement again I see you mean the opposite - that there is actually too much evidence that COUNTERS his going - then POST some. I've posted the evidence showing he went and others have posted the evidence showing the med records are from Atsugi.. you've done nothing so far to show he stayed and was not in Ping Tung but speculate... {buzzer} Fail!
The statement also suggests you supposedly know something that you simply don't while not offering anything to support your speculation... it was the records which reached the WC/HSCA that matter in our analysis of the conspiracy which was perpetrated. If you've uncovered evidence of SEA programs which can explain how the Folsom and Donabedian Exhibits do not show 2 men with the same SN# in two places at the same time... give us your best shot.
You see Greg, you just saying so means ZIP, NADA, ZILCH. You BELIEVE one thing or another, you have FAITH that records showing his leaving and coming from Taiwan and the DoD and HSCA going out of their way to try and FIX the USMC records so it did not show this conflict was some SEA related thing... IOW if it was not a SEA thing as you claim, your book and work is not as accurate and revealing as you'd originally thought -kinda puts a damper on volumes 2 and beyond....
All you need to is offer the supporting evidence for these speculations - simple.
Can you Prove it was Bobby and not Harvey?
You are aware there was the Neumeyer boys fight a few days before the tooth fight with Riley, both Lee, not Harvey...
As for Myra, the little guy she remembered was bobby Newman. That's why voebel doesn't mention the piano incident.
This is standard double-speak Greg... you know what a tautology is, mate?
That was NOT why he did not mention a piano incident (assuming you mean his testimony)... he was never ASKED about anything about it as it was not anything they would have known about... Even if Myra told the FBI about the incident it was not in anything the FBI offered the WC... Why would Voebal bring up some random event from 7 years before if he was never asked about it?
Until you can prove it was not Harvey, anything that follows is pure guesswork on your part. And then that house you build upon your guesswork is on a sinking foundation.. PROVE something that you offer is authentic Greg... and not just you guessing.
As for the trustworthiness of FBI reporting - All the FBI reports do is state information which may not be entirely representative of what was said. When you show me the signed statement from the person they interviewed (like Palmer) as to what they said and published is correct, then we are getting somewhere. When all you offer are FBI paraphrases with no connection to the witnesses themselves, sorry Greg, but the FBI does not get a free ride simply cause they're the FBI - in this instance they have proven themselves unreliable... THEIR evidence incriminating Oswald or removing conflicts needs to be ironclad...
That's just not what we see.
The FBI can't get away from Palmer other than just saying he was mistaken and leaving it at the FBI v Palmer - in 1963 the FBI won that battle. But since Palmer insisted on signing his statement the FBI report could not say whatever if wanted to claim he said... did you know if they ever spoke with Larry Williamson? or did they avoid Pfisterer's corroboration at all costs?
"I have read and initialled each page and all corrections on this six page statement. I declare that it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.
/S/ PALMER EDWIN McBRIDE
McBRIDE stated that Mr. LAWRENCE WILLIAMSON, Bookkeeper, and Miss AMELDA (Last Name Unknown), Secretary at Pfisterer Dental Laboratory Company, would probably recall remarks made by OSWALD favoring Russia and Communism
Greg,
Did you personnally ask Myra if the boy in Voebal's photo was Harvey? the boy in the Zoo photo? in 1995 John did... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwUsZ8RjIqg
What have you done and what do you offer to substantiate what you claim?
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There is too much counter evidence for him going. I will adopt your position regarding the FBI. It is a lie and a cover-up. But not for any doppelganger program. They just didn't want anyone digging around what was really happening in SEA at the time. As I have already said, I cover what was happening in my next volume.
Now how about you address Bernieritia Smith's testimony regarding the tooth and about little Bobby Newman (who was the person Myra was convinced by Armstrong was really "Harvey") - and explain why she was ignored by Armstrong.
After you've done that, I have a whole raft of other stuff you've so far avoided addressing.
Interesting how you can accept defeat in a subject while throwing a jab on your way to the canvas...
The USMC records put him both in Taiwan and Atsugi at the same time.
The records show events that occurred both in Taiwan and Atsugi at the SAME TIME to the same Oswald #1653230.
The DoD lies about his never leaving in the face of his being in Ping Tung and proveably so.
How many times do we need to hear "in the next volume" when you can't even bother to post a tidbit so you dont sound like your pulling it out of your arsenal. Bottom line: two men, two places, same name and # according to the USMC.
Not possible unless there are two Lee Harvey Oswalds merged into one record.
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Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
Page 92 H&L
Oswald's aunt, Lillian Murret, remembered this event well. She told the Warren
Commission, "They were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in
back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, 'Lee,' and when he turned
around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip,
so she (Marguerite Oswald) had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and
I paid for the dentist bill myself ..... "
Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom----
Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. That is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l?
Reading thru H&L I find "broken front tooth" and "missing front tooth" and all in relation to the larger LEE OSWALD. When Myra was shown this photo she stated this was not the HARVEY she knew.
When shown the Bronx zoo photo, she recognized Harvey.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10407#relPageId=427&tab=page is the link to the man corroborating that this was a photo taken by Voebel at BJHS.
The photo does indeed appear as if the tooth is missing... and that there is no scarring or bandages related to running a tooth THRU the lip...
Since we do not have records of the dentist he was taken to, all we can go by is the witness testimony and this photo. The middle two teeth are usually out and grow back between 6 and 8 years old.
Can you PROVE the tooth did not get knocked out or, like us, only can go by what was said. It appears just as lilkely it was knocked out given this photo, than running thru his lip...
The POINT that you completely butcher is that MYRA sees this and knows it is not the Harvey Oswald she knew. If the tooth was not knocked out, this photo is strange, no?
Whether the man in the coffin was the southern born 5'11" 150lb LEE or 5'9" 135lb HARVEY remains a debate and would not be concluded simply because of the tooth in question here.
The photo does seem to be worth a 1000 words though... as for the whole rash of stuff you have... most has been covered already here...
Seems to me your admitting there were two Oswald's in the records and the DoD lied about the one never leaving does not change the situation from 2 to 1 person.
Donovan stating he was with Oswald in Taiwan at the same time Lee is getting medical treatment does not seem to be something you can refute...
Will you be offering your explanation backed by evidence, or you just accepting that the Evidence shows two men with one record?
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Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. IOW you're just a thug with a vocabulary and a sense of history. Nice.
No doubt you have the inside scoop on the testicle controversy, you being such a putz and all...
Let us know a year or two in advance of when that revelation will come out... The marketing hype will barely be palpable...
And once again we see David Josephs palpably seething with jealousy...
It must be awful seeing your nemesis with his own ideas and his own research making exciting new inroads into this puzzle while your role is reduced to delivery boy for someone else's.
You Dawn and Jim used to go on about "minions" but you just cannot see the irony can you?
None of what you promote is your own work David. You do know that don't you?
Just because you are being used as a conduit does not therefore make it YOUR research. As I said, you are merely the delivery boy.
With that in mind maybe a more humble and less aggressive approach would more befit your small time status in the promotion of H&L.
I'm not holding my breath...
You and Parker spend the lion share of your time here posting about H&L ... YOU chose to view the H&L threads, YOU choose to comment on them with opinion and Parker-parrot-speak and then YOU get all uppity about my presenting the H&L evidence and not hawking my work here?
Why is it when we go to your profile and look for topics YOU'VE started the answer is ZERO... NONE, NADA, ZIP yet you can lecture me on the focus of MY work? When we look at your posts, 95% of them are on H&L threads... seems to me you're a bit obsessed with the topic and the members who support it... and then you lash out at me and Jim and Steve cause you are so terribly bad at rebutting the evidence... but then again you kiss Parker's artillery pretty regularly so he does your heavy lifting...
When you actually write something original, or start a thread on something YOU think - let us know.
Go take any of my 6 Mexico articles www.CTKA.net and critique them... Tell me what is wrong with my Judy Baker essay and evidence analysis. Let me know what you've done in regards to my Rifle posts, the timing of the assassination timeline or any one of a dozen different topics I've started or the scores of threads my posts appear within..
It is so obvious that you are "projecting" again. You find yourself in this thread MOST of the time, getting all worked up over not being able to counter anything on your own, with your own work... it certainly appears as if you don't do any of your own work.
With people who understand that it requires a little time and effort to read thru the work offered by H&L, or any one specific topic, before they chime in about how wrong it is, my approach is much less aggressive.
When the time comes you enter a H&L conversation without guns blazing and present a coherent argument, the skys will part and angels will sing... and you can be taken seriously. But first you might considering learning even just a little bit about the subject matter.
Your repeatedly need to demean the work and my contribution to it appears to me to come from a great insecurity on your part in your own inabilities to cobble together an organized rebuttal to anything that's been offered. Tracy sure seems to spend the majority of his time focuses on H&L... when does HE start "promoting their own work" - or is that only my irony?
That deer-in-the-headlights look you must have as you wade thru real work and real evidence comes shining thru your posts every time Bernie... and that you're PROUD that you can comment on something you haven't bothered to even read or aquaint yourself with is even more appalling... why would anything posted from such a self proclaimed uninformed member have any bearing on what others think of H&L? you ever wonder what that does to how people read any of your other work - if there is any....
btw - Parker and I can take care of ourselves Bernie... I'm actually finding his banter more and more amusing ... At least he has different interests within the case although from his time on H&L threads you'd barely know it.
I'm more than willing to drop any and all aggression or hostility if you and the boys agree to present the EVIDENCE which supports your posts and not get personal with ever uttered word...
Start cordially with the DoD letter to Blakey about Oswald never getting on that ship to Taiwan... and the evidence which shows him leaving and returning as well as the evidence which establishes his presence at Ping Tung...
And how Gorsky can have Oswald leaving the USMC in March 1959 while Donovan is Harvey's CO in the Summer and Fall of 1959...
Any proof you can provide which substantiates the DoD "Fact Sheet" of his not sailing on Sept 16th would be a great start... then there's Donovan, the guard duty shooting, etc...
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0415a.htm is the link to CE1961 which shows him leaving the 14th of Sept and returning the 6th of Oct...
Isn't that a conflict with this: while being corroborated by the rest of the evidence?
LEAVING for South China Sea Sept 14th
Coming BACK on OCT 6th
Donovan with Oswald in Taiwan hidden until the HSCA...
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Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. IOW you're just a thug with a vocabulary and a sense of history. Nice.
No doubt you have the inside scoop on the testicle controversy, you being such a putz and all...
Let us know a year or two in advance of when that revelation will come out... The marketing hype will barely be palpable...
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well done Greg...
No facts about the false defector program in any other book around? interesting
Lee's recruiter huh... Nazi connections, then we add in Radionics & Witchcraft and we have the basis for your novel. perfect.
The arrogance of your believing you are privy to that which has not been discussed is amazing. It takes a very select group to KNOW they have info others don't... of course I'll plug your books Greg... if you're right - more power to you mate...
Break it wide open for us... lay it out so your work can also be picked apart if anyone cared to take the time to do so... and be substantiated.
You see Greg, it's not about you and me...it's about the evidence and what it says about the investigation.
Maybe someday you'll get that and stop being such a "dunny" - isn't that what you called me in trying to get your local insults past the moderators?
what was that other thing? I forget but I'm pretty sure it was yet another 2nd grade insult that you and the kids at ROKC laugh about... so witty!
Dunny or dunny can is Australian slang for toilet, either the room or the specific fixture, especially an outhouse or other outdoor toilets
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The sling on the rifle in the photo with the holster look similar, the sling on the rifle in the BYP doesn't seem to even resemble it. look at the photo in comment 260
I believe the entire Alba situation was used to suggest the sling was made for Oswald as opposed to provided and atached to the rifle by whoever it was that left it on the 6th floor.
I'd suggest that either no sling was sent and this other thing was used - some say it looks like a rope, I think it may be the cloth standard sling that Klein's says they send with rifles tha do not request a specific sling....
Point remain..
The BYPs are composites... the black clothing seen in the image was never found in Oswald's possessions...
I've seen the original, as have a few people who do the looking. While Roscoe White may have helped create the final product, I do not think it is he in the photo... there are other names to consider - but since the sources are unconfirmed I'll just leave it at that.
THAT rifle - I do believe I am in the process of proving via this essay I'm trying to finish - was never at Klein's along with the other 100 rifles in that shipment. In fact, there is not one shred of evidence which support that Klein's ever shipped or had in inventory these rilfes... only that 10 of 520 packing slips - one of which with C2766 listed - were used to create the evidence that Klein's rec'd that shipment.
I will prove otherwise. It's called "closed loop evidence" . As long as the evidence corroborates itself it can be believed. If it does not corroborate with any other process or order of shipment received (or that info is never offered to corroborate) we have a tautological presentation of evidence...
Slip #3620 with carton #3376 = Feb shipment = VC document = Blank Order = Hidell = Oswald
Except the only shipment related by the man who originally offered the slips is to June 1962 not Feb 1963.
And as much as DVP and other LNers cannot fathom it, each and every item in Evidence IS the conspiracy, NOT the investigation of the event... except for JFK's shirt and JAcket - there is no way to spin that to incriminate Oswald.
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Nice Find Vitali !! Thanks for that.
DJ
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You mean a little issue like how you're wrong about the application versus driver's license...
Greg, all you do here is grasp at the brass ring but you keep falling off your little horsey...
You're great at excuses and diversion as long as you don't have to deal with the USMC or any of the actual evidence since you seem to always get it wrong.
But at least this keeps you busy ... all those little wheels churning away, all excited about maybe finding something which refutes or negates the evidence for H&L and you always come up short... story of your life?
On top of it all you can't even remember the arguments you've made... which come back around to who you wrong yet again... like you were about the Jiffy store... Yates, and just about everything else
Now you claim that Donovan puts Oswald in the Taiwan to HELP the WC's case? what a joke..
Get all your stories straight and keep trying mate... the more you post the more foolish you look and the more those reading your work see you for who you are... yet another wannabe H&L critic who barely knows the evidence and even less about the work.
Keep promising those big new things and amazing discoveries... the build up, oh the build up. If book #1 is any indication...
{yawn}
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The rifle in the back yard pictures had a rope sling. mmmm.....
Are you sure Ray? I found this - a vintage cloth Carcano sling which Klein's gunsmith claims would have been sent with the rifle if anything was sent at all... Does look like what was on there a bit...
Did the rifles come equipped with straps?
A- No, because they were very cumbersome to pack. if some_
one would specifically order a sling with the rifle, a military
strap would be sent. This would not necessarily mean a strap
that was made especially for the 6.5 mannlicher-carcano.
Magnifying the photos, David, it still appears to me that the strap is a piece of thick cord rather than the strap you illustrate. (No appearance of any flat area in the strap) However, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
Definitely not saying it is this sling.. but it may be a real cloth sling instead of just a piece of rope... as it appears to have some dimension to it...
Found these as well which is even closer to it... who knows what they would have sent with the rifle.
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The rifle in the back yard pictures had a rope sling. mmmm.....
Are you sure Ray? I found this - a vintage cloth Carcano sling which Klein's gunsmith claims would have been sent with the rifle if anything was sent at all... Does look like what was on there a bit...
Did the rifles come equipped with straps?
A- No, because they were very cumbersome to pack. if some_
one would specifically order a sling with the rifle, a military
strap would be sent. This would not necessarily mean a strap
that was made especially for the 6.5 mannlicher-carcano.
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Didn't one of "Harvey's" fellow marines refer to him as "Oswaldkovich"?
I subscribe to your H&L argument DJ, but tell me, what do you think happened to Lee?
I imagine he lived for only a short time after 11-22-63. (And yes I'm aware of the post-assassination "Oswald" sightings in Dallas, including the Redbird Airport story.)
Appreciated Jon... the funny thing is it's the WCR and HSCA argument for H&L, all we are doing is showing one of many things which was covered up... and taking that extra step that so many others have done in so many other areas of the case.
As for Lee... Another great mystery Jon.... The Donald Norton stories come to mind for Lee must have changed his name after 11/22... or as you say, he like so many others met an early and unplanned demise.
Almost as good a question as who Harvey was...
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And if you knew how ridiculous you repeatedly sound not knowing the most basic of info related to these discussions
you'd simply leave... and the rest of us would be "gleeful"...
The thread is not about Harvey spouting off Communism but the conflict presented by the DoD records and those who were with Harvey in Taiwan... look at post #1 if you've forgotten already, mate.
(edit: My bad - this thread is more about who was where earlier in the term... but the same concepts apply)
But you keep finding the stuff you CAN address to derail to the discussion and leave the tough stuff for others....
you simply don't have the chops old man... are you saying that YOU couldn't find evidence of Oswald talking about Communism and Marxism in the Marines ...
while a whole group of other USMC buddies state he never spoke political at all?And you call yourself a researcher? Pathetic, mate.
How can anyone expect to believe you about anything when you can't even make an effort to look for yourself and the sources you do offer are patently pathetic in their own right.
Well done Greg... well done.
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David, I wonder what this is going to reveal when you get to the end. It seems clear now that the PMO was created and never actually existed except for the WC. Who decided that a rifle 'should' have been ordered in March, and by whom? Do you suppose this will ever reveal the actual path traveled by 2766? Someone had to have some pretty good info to direct the Post Office on exactly when that PMO had to have been bought, but why would they show it to have been bought at one post office and then mailed from several miles away? Are there more details available?
It is my hope, Kenneth, that I can bring the information to a new level - It's one thing to say the PMO was created, it's another to show how the Evidence offered PROVES it.
It's one thing to say the 10 packing slips could not have been part of the Feb 1963 Klein's shipment - another to prove it using the evidence
It's one thing to claim the FBI took the Microfilm it's another to prove the Evidence not only conflicts on this topic but is blatantly fraudulent...
I find that the SS once again is at the center of yet another piece of dubious evidence (SS chief Rowley is the first person where CE399 comes into existence - until him, none or the witnesses identifies CE399 as the bullet they encountered)
This time it's the Money Order which Asst Dep Chief PATERNI supposedly has in his possession at 8pm yet is not found or delivered to the SS until 10:10pm...
edit: I need to add that "Beretta" or "Terni" - which the revised April 1962 Klein's order is asking for, the M91/38, does not exist as a rifle identified solely by those numbers.
Beretta and Terni are FACTORIES, not rifle types... I believe this ORDER BLANK was changed after the fact and would not be what was recorded on the Microfilm...
Gil Jesus did an amazingly good job summarizing the Money Order and Rifle info... John Armstrong is from where Gil began his search I believe...
I'm simply trying to compile the case which shows not only is the evidence a mess, but it was specifically created along with revisions of reports which are 180 degrees opposite of the original message.
It is my belief that the evidence related to the rifle is a closed loop self-corroborating process. As long as we are never allowed to see another C20-T750 order, another list of VC#'s assigned to rifles, or any of these other 99 rifles... the evidence proves itself - a tautology if you will...
LNers will claim that since C2766 was on the 6th floor, it MUST have been removed by Rupp from Harborside and sent to Klein's in Feb... These assumptions and conclusions do not fit the facts...
Notable notes from this article:- There is no record when carton number 3376 was removed from the Harborside Warehouse. It arrived at the Harborside on 10/25/60 and isn't seen again on record until it appears on Crescent Firearms invoice # 3178 dated 2/7/63.
According to Rupp, #3178 was created by Crescent in NY and Penn Freight... it is a very generic, unsigned document which states the rifles were "T-38" and #3376 is not checked off
- That Crescent Firearms invoice 3178 lists 10 cartons shipped to Klein's Sporting Goods, but only nine are actually checked off. The tenth, carton # 3376 ( which allegedly contained rifle C2766 ) is not checked off.
Yes - yet does this actually mean anything?
- A C2766 rifle sold to Klein's in June of 1962 would have been a 36" rifle. The time consumed in preparing the order would have required it to have been begun prior to 4/13/62, the effective date of the order change. That would have made the rifle a 91/38 TS ( troop special ) , which only came in a 36" length.
This is NOT necessarily true at all... C2766 for our purposes is a 40.5" M91/38 Fucile Corto with a FIXED rear sight... Feldsott claims to have sold Klein's C2766 in June 1962 - there is no evidence for what was in that shipment other then the FBI claiming that Klein's records for June 1962 has a "N"2766, not "C"2766 - this is the only specific evidence that can be related to the June 1962 shipment. The original rifle order was NOT for M91/38 TS but a M91 TS... the ads for the 36" rifle starting in March 1962 all say "Adjustable Rear Sight" (see below)
- The envelope containing the money order was mailed from a postal zone that was 3 zones away from the main post office and Oswald's place of employment at a time when Oswald was documented at work.
The endge of Zone 12 was a 2 hour, or 5 mile round trip from the GPO in Dallas
- The money order in evidence was not stamped by any financial institution that handled it and passed through the Federal Reserve System without any stamps at all.
Not only that but it appears that the KLEIN's stamp on the back is not exactly the same as the test stamp they did and asked Waldman whether it was the stamp they used at Klein's... "
- The VP of Klein's bank told the FBI that the "$21.45" item on the tape ( Waldman Exhibit 10 ) between the $15.08 and $14.36 items was an American Express Money Order. This is the same one the WC claimed was the "Hidell" postal money order.
Not sure where this comes from - ROBERT WILMOUTH VP Operations for Chicago's 1st National Bank tells us the deposit had 2 $21.45's on it and that one was an American Express MO - the one described in point 6 above. He also says the other was a PMO - it appears on the 2nd page of Waldman 10 between $23.99 & $17.51. Wilmouth goes on to say that the PMO was sent to the Fed Res and would be rec'd March 18th.
- Using only manual labor and the money order amount as a guide, the Dallas Post Office employees found the money order stub in ten minutes, but it took an IBM computer in Washington 7 hours to find the money order with the number, amount and date info.
This comes from Harry Holmes and is without corroboration - there is no STUB in evidence nor the name of the person finding it. It did not take a computer 7 hours either... The SS reports related to this situation is quite amazing and will be covered in my monotath
- Part 3 of Oswald's Post Office Box application was destroyed in violation of Federal postal regulations.
It was only disappeared - WCR refers to this in saying that no one other than OSWALD was listed on this form - if they never saw it how would they know who was listed?
- Postal forms ( delivery receipt, seller's statement ) required to be filled out for firearms sales were never filled out for the rifle sale.
True
- A "certificate of character" from a judge in the county where "Hidell" lived was also required for the purchase of the rifle. No such certificate exists.
There's more to that than just no cert exists
- The Klein's catalog number of the rifle "Hidell" ordered was different than the catalog number of the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
The SS concluded at 3pm on the 23rd that the rifle ordered was a "1981 Troop Special" - a 36" scoped rifle using 6.5mm ammo
- The WC experts comparing Oswald's handwriting used first and second generation COPIES, rather than original documents. The HSCA experts also used copies but explained the problems when not using originals.
I add the detail supporting this statement and the conclusions of the HSCA experts
- A document examiner's conclusion is correctly considered a professional opinion, not evidence.
If the expert is bona fide than the opinion can be entered into evidence - since we've never had a trial, none of the "evidence" is really evidence in technical terms... which is why I'm doing all these articles, to assume they needed to be authenticated to be allowed as evidence in the first place
- The sling mounts on the Depository rifle are not the same as the sling mounts on the rifle depicted in the famous "backyard" photographs.
What the rifle's sling looked like for those photos and on Nov 23rd should match - why?
Did the rifles come equipped with straps?
A (William Sharp: Klein's gunsmith) - No, because they were very cumbersome to pack. if someone would specifically order a sling with the rifle, a military strap would be sent. This would not necessarily mean a strap that was made especially for the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano
I went looking for the kind of sling that may have been sent with the rifle - my guess is they'd send the cheapest thing possible given the cost of the rifle... Carcano has both a cloth and leather vintage military sling... It may be the sling in the BY images is the cloth one...
- There is no record when carton number 3376 was removed from the Harborside Warehouse. It arrived at the Harborside on 10/25/60 and isn't seen again on record until it appears on Crescent Firearms invoice # 3178 dated 2/7/63.
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Sigh... There's nothing but the evidence.
Look at the first post and see whathe response has been. Powers is with Lee. A different group is with Harvey at the same time...
The records are right there. If Greg does not know what was said of Harvey and his mouth and the topic of conversation... He needs to read the book... Or search the topic here...
Is he that incapable of using the search function.. If how he addresses my posts and evidence convinces you
so be it.
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No Greg, I'm ignoring your incredibly stupid question. If you don't know the subject matter, find something else to do...
Now go back to your childish life whining and pouting over H&L.
Your confusion and ineptitude here has become legendary... Great when the subject of the joke is too self absorbed to notice everyone is laughing at you...
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So here is the detailed Landes USMC medical record.: http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?...eId=1&tab=page
Thanks Tom... With so many WC Docs I appreciate being led to different ones with specific info buried under anonymous headings...
One of the things that most bother me about the USMC records is the conflict between "Aircraft Control and Warning Operator" school (Radar operator) and the recommendation as well as preference of duty in his records as a "Aircraft Maintenance and Repair"...
With as poor hearing as he had, I fail to see how he gets into a Air Traffic Control. Felde tells us that his Oswald did not go to Biloxi but was in Florida thru July when they go to "Aviation Electronics School" in Memphis TN which as I understand it would be for Aircraft Maintenance nad Repair, not Air traffic controller...
http://www.marines.com/being-a-marine/roles-in-the-corps/aviation-combat-element/avionics
Marines in the Avionics field install, remove, inspect, test, maintain and repair all aviation weapons and electrical systems. They also support communications, radar and navigation systems.
http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10535&search=landes#relPageId=2&tab=page
On the next page in that WCD with the Landes info WCD131, we are told yet another little white lie by the FBI who, when necessary, couldn't find their a$$ with two hands and a flashlight...
"The records fail to name any personnel assigned or attending above school with Oswald"
When in reality the records could not be more clear... and later on, Powers produces the orders for these six men at his testimony..
Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them-----
Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date, I appreciate it.
Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.
Mr. POWERS. Yes.
"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."
And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these marines.
Mr. POWERS. (1Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.) 551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?
Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694
Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.
Mr. JENNER Yes.
Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.
I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?
Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.
HARVEY was said to be spouting off on Communism and Marxism a great deal of the time... This is NOT Harvey Mr. Powers here is talking about... but LEE and helps to illustrate the existence of these two separate men. The list of men HARVEY is known to is completely different and NEVER includes these other 5 names....
Have at it boys
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Hi Jim...
I think it very important to add something I found when researching that 12:20pm bus out of New Orleans...
In Dec MAJOR GREEN does not mention a 12:20pm bus since it does not go thru to Mexico as a part of a single trip... but only the 4:40pm and 8:15pm buses which cannot get Ozzie to Houston in time...
So what does the FBI do? In Sept 1964, 3 days before the publishing of the WCR, MAJOR GREEN is mysteriously interviewed again - and this time there is a 12:20pm bus to Houston.
So the FBI back dates the report and offers it in December as proof the FBI knew about a bus which could get Ozzie to Houston in time...
This is how the FBI starts the trip and "presumes" he left on this bus... why does it assume this... Marina says he left on the 25th... even though she had already left 2 days earlier... and had no contact with Ozzie while on her trip to Irving...
This is the FBI doing their thing... and it only gets worse with the rest of the MC evidence...
Please notice that the original report from 12/16 with only 2 buses and the 9/21 report verbiage are virtually identical...
Nice article Jim... the Chicago FBI office WCDocs virtually all include mention of Vallee and how he and only he was arrested, NOT other gunmen
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Now lets talk about you-when are you going out on your own so you don't have to continue defending the indefensible?
So says the man who has yet to step to the plate and offer his defense for the WCR fiasco.... talk about indefensible.
As for your self proclaimed "Watch dog" status... I guess everyone needs a hobby... set the world on fire.
No diversion Tracy... you think you accomplished something - bravo... you want a gold star or something?
Take a few minutes and address the evidence the USMC offers along with the DoD which proves not only did they lie about it, but that there are Oswalds at Ping Tung and Atsugi simultaneously...
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19762&page=71#entry309157 you seem to be the only one of the group who actually does some work to support your conclusions...
...Can you disprove the USMC evidence regarding his being at Ping Tung or on a ship to and from in Sept/Oct 1957 while also in Atsugi?
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Armstrong has now updated his article "The Story of Two Steven Landesbergs". The "red bearded man" is gone as is the "3 am interview". I will decide how to update my own site to reflect these changes, but the history of these misrepresentations will be documented. A small concession, but his premise is still false and he is still taking liberties with the facts in other ways.
You going to turn the big brain now to proving Oswald shot JFK as you believe... or you only good for taking on other people's work?
How about that thread of your own work proving your beliefs - or do you not hold your work out for examination and analysis?
You see Tracy - I've been to your LHO Research Page - and I come to find nothing but a couple H&L arguments and no original content whatsoever besides your book reviews.
July 2001? Keeping things up to date we see
Three Key Areas That Disprove the Armstrong Theory
Newsgroup Post by W. Tracy Parnell
July 2001
1. HSCA Fingerprint and Photo Analysis.
2. HSCA Handwriting Analysis
3. Oswald Exhumation
Really? The HSCA is your source material which disproves the H&L evidence in the record... that'll take you far
Acknowledgements
Thanks to the following people who helped make this site possible:
Stephen E. Lewis (contributor)
John McAdams (site host)
Jerry Organ (contributor)
Vince Palamara (contributor)
Carol Parnell (editor)
Dave Reitzes (contributor)
Gary Sumner (contributor)
Very impressive set of people Tracy... you should have no trouble at all proving your POV
To be fair your blog was started in April of this year yet you do seem to be focused predominantly on H&L....
Posts by category
•Category: "Harvey & Lee"
Rizzuto’s Lies
Latest Armstrong Tale Now DOA
The 3 AM Interview
Using Photos to Misrepresent
Orvie Aucoin
So What?
Myrtle, Julian and Clem
LHO at Monnig
Frankenstein Oswald
Harvey & Lee: Who Was Involved in the Plot?
Leander D’Avy
•Category: Conspiracy Theories ◦Paul Groody’s Theory
Jack White and the LHO Exhumation Photos
Conspiracy Theorists and Suspension of Disbelief
•Category: LHO ◦The Hunter Photo
•Category: Marguerite Oswald ◦Marguerite Never Smiled
Marguerite and The Fort Worth Press
•Category: News ◦Gary Mack
Do you ever plan to get around to your OSWALD DID IT threads and posts which present YOUR WORK which shows the WCR was correct - at least DVP has the persistence to stick by his convictions...
Mission Statement (tracy's blog)
I believe the evidence shows that Lee Harvey Oswald is guilty of the crime of assassinating President John F. Kennedy. The goal of this website is to present articles and other information that will refute conspiracy theories and clarify facts.
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I see noone has addressed the HSCA, Blakey and the DoD lying about where Oswald was..
That's because I see no one providing the actual source document. Take yours or Armstrong's word for what anything says? When pigs fly.
Produce the document and then I'll discuss it.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19762&page=68#entry308997
you must have been on a time out
Funny thing is it was YOU Greg who pointed out the DoD letter as an argument that Oswald never left Atsugi - too bad you don't remember that.
So I guess we need to understand how Donovan can know Oswald in the Phillipines if he never went...
Or how he is on the ship manifest on Oct 6th coming back from Taiwan Phillipines - if he never left Japan....
Focus on the EVIDENCE Greg, I know you can do it.
If he is sailing back from Ping Tung on the 6th of October... the Donabedian Exhibit showing his STD treatments in Japan from Sept 14th thru the 5th of Oct must be referring to some other Lee Oswald as is CE1961 which clearly states he went and was at Ping Tung North Taiwan on Sept 30th... yet was treated in Atsugi on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, & 29th...
So you get to explain how this evidence does not show one man in two locations simultaneously
Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Offer another realistic and documented explanation then Tracy.
Donovan, Gorsky, Felde, Marines with Lee, Marines with Harvey never knowing each other or the other Oswald, the DoD lying to the HSCA, Anna Lewis' Feb in NOLA ID, Lee at McKeown's, the Sports Drome while Harvey is in Irving or at Beckley, Sylvia Odio, Mexico City, Kudlaty, DaRouse, Palmer, Pfisterer's, 2220 Thomas, 120 Telemechas...
Tip of the iceberg Tracy... I greatly appreciate your calm approach... JA will not be 100% correct with every fact and every source... no one can be...
but until a better explanation is offered to address EVERY conflict, some of the key ones are obviously related to covering SOMETHING up...
the H&L thread of evidence stretches a long way.. I look forward to a well presented rebuttal to this evidence...
Start with who was at Youth House and howhe then became "class president" - that would be interesting...
DJ