David Josephs

So...nobody has a challenge for Williams' testimony?

Nobody can come to a conclusion about what he says?

Conclusion? Oswald was where he said he was and not on the 6th floor at any time after 11:50am.

Before Oswald is on the 6th floor west corner he must first get the bag the rifle is in from wherever it was placed that morning when he brought it to work...

Yet no one other than Wesley tells us he rought a paper bag with him to work or in the back doors.

When he comes in and Dougherty does NOT see anything in his hand (remember this needs to be a 3.5 foot paper bag with rattling rifle parts inside...)

1. Where did Oswald store it? Proof please

2. When did Oswald retreive said rifle and go to the 6th floor? Provide proof please

3. When, where and with what did Oswald reassemble the rifle? Proof...

4. He supposedly ordered the rifle himself with his own alias... an Oswald has repeatedly picked up all the 6.5mm shells fired at the Sports Drome rifle range yet this time, he chooses to leave the shells where they lay and leave the rifle to be found, also without fingerprints as a result of hims placing the rifle beneath boxes... were his prints on the boxes by the Rifle? Nope.

5. How again was the scope signted in for that day and distance?

Hey, you and your pal Dunckel are the ones doing the whining. Seriously, if we're all such idiots, why waste your time here?

Because even a King of Fools is still a King in his own mind...

Talk a bout a thick skin... he still hasn't been able to deal with the only items of physcial evidence which show what actually happened during the shooting.

Getting that bullet to exit ABOVE the entry when shot DOWNWARD at 21 degrees is a physics impossibility...

So Ford and Ryberg moved the entry..

The shirt and Jacket do not lie David... that would be the provenence of the WCR

So answer Bob's question... you ever been within 10 feet in front of the muzzle of a fired high powered rifle?

Or are you claiming that science does not know how to measure decibel levels? and that ears do not work as they do?

Try WCD298 for the FBI's account of what happened... they used all the available evidence, surveys of DP and precise measurements...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10699

You want to see tortured and twisted... DVP explaining this should be a treat

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm was the man who put the model together... and delivered it to the WC in early January 1964...

Please notice where that last shot hits....

Here's another view of Agent Howlett in the Sniper's Nest. There's no problem for a right-handed shooter here.

CTers are merely creating problems for the sixth-floor assassin that don't exist and never did.

What they WONT do is put a rifle in the man's hands and then show you how he needs to sit and aim if the limo was down by Z313 on Elm.

They also WONT tell you that they removed an entire column of boxes where his right elbow would be...

You see David... the WCR evidence is pure crap, designed to suggest one thing when in reality the original evidence suggested something completely different.

With a stack of books taller than the man sitting on the box by the window, a person would have little if any room.

Try an exercise where we superimpose the rifle into the line art showing the box locations. Starting to get a bit tighter in there...

How large is a person's footprint? when standing a person is about 1 foor square at the feet and wider at the shoulders

As you show in the image you posted, whne sitting the person's foorprint is even larger than 1 square foot...

Not saying it's impossible - yet it's just not as roomy as the image you posted - as offered by the WCR - would suggest...

You see Dave.. you like to stop short of authentication of the evidence since in every case the evidence is complete crap and you know it.

The slightest breeze and the cards all come tumbling down..

But you knew that... which is why you tap dance around the issue with every post...

Yes, we are.

What else CAN we do with respect to CE567/569, or ANY other piece of evidence for that matter? We must always take somebody's "word" for everything

No David... we don't. Inventions such as the photograph and tape machine allows us to record the actual evidence as it was actually found...

So tell you what Dave...make a list of every item of evidence the FBI/SS offers which was never photographed where found - that we must take their word for it - and see how important those items are.

As I have shown repeatedly now, the FBI evidence is not authenticated... it cannot be shown to be unique in any way when the same evidence is repeatedly gathered from different sources at different times.

Why is a Navy Corpsman involved in the search of the limo while under SS guard?

Or the Deputy Chief for that matter? (side note: in the middle of the night 22nd/23rd the SS Chief Rowley receives a zfilm which is in the hand of the SS for almost a full day before reaching NPIC Saturday night...)

Why are there no detailed photographs of one of the most important items of evidence there was - the SCENE OF THE CRIME...

Like the bag in the corner or the rifle on the floor... no photos of one, 1 photo of the other...

Not a single photo in any detail of any item of evidence from the limo where he was killed...

but dam if we're not going to need his 7th grade school records to solve this case, right? better dispatch someone to Ft Worth and Stripling right away...

You see Dave... until the FBI/SS proves its evidence is authentic, it isn't. Innocent until PROVEN guilty.. not assumed guilty and railroaded by the US government.

Mr. Carroll... while we needn't see eye to eye, we do agree that Oswald was not involved in the killing of JFK that day.

My agreement comes with a personal caveat about which Oswald we are referring to, yet rather than go that direction... let's just agree that the many Ruby killed was not "in on it"

It would make little sense for him to be... he was helping identify pro-Castro supporters in the US... he was getting close here and there while not doing so well in other areas, like so many "assets" of the times.

Was Lovelady where he was on purpose? So that afterward a mis-ID of Oswald at the top of the stairs would be explained by Lovelady's presence?

Seems a bit too planned out for me... yet there he was and deep in the corner, obviously not in a spot where he could even see the motorcade after it turns.

And barely moves until he is gone...

Gonna go see if I can find the latest image of PM we have

JFK's autopsy includes the following statement related to his skeletal system:

"Skeletal System

Aside from the above described skull wounds there are no significant
gross skeletal abnormalities".

Boggles the mind what might have actually transpired in that room that night.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/12/the-medical-ordeals-of-jfk/305572/

By the spring of 1954 Kennedy's back pain had become almost unbearable. X-rays show that the fifth lumbar vertebra had collapsed. Kennedy could not bend to pull a sock onto his left foot, and he had to ascend and descend stairs moving sideways. Beginning in May he had to rely on crutches more than ever, and walks from his office to the Senate for quorum and roll calls, on hard marble floors, became a daily ordeal. In August a team of physicians from the Lahey Clinic, in Boston, visited him on Cape Cod, where they described yet another surgery, a complicated procedure to achieve spinal and sacroiliac fusions that, they hoped, would strengthen his lower spine. They explained that without the operation he might lose his ability to walk, but that so difficult a surgery on someone with Addison's disease posed risks of a fatal infection, because the steroids were suppressing his immune system.

The operation, which finally took place on October 21 and lasted more than three hours, was at best a limited success. A metal plate was inserted to stabilize Kennedy's lower spine. Afterward a urinary-tract infection put his life in jeopardy. He went into a coma, and once again a priest was called to administer last rites. By December Kennedy had shaken the infection and was sufficiently recovered to be moved to the family's Palm Beach home. Nevertheless, he remained far from well; his doctors could not promise that he would ever walk again. Moreover, there was reason to believe that the site of the plate was infected. Consequently, in February another operation was performed at New York Hospital, to remove the plate. The Travell records show that extracting it meant removing three screws that had been drilled into bone and replacing damaged cartilage with a bone graft. After another three months recuperating in Florida, Kennedy returned to Washington in May.

Kennedy would suffer from all these problems, including outright degeneration of his lumbar spine.

see?

bob and weave. stick and move.

when a man cannot reason, his only response is a counter-attack.

I still think he has a photo of Specter over his bed.... gotta learn from the best, right?

David... who found these items, when and were they photographed within the limo? or are we supposed to take the SS or FBI's word for it?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0141b.htm is the "fragment of the nose of a bullet" with CE569 a fragment of the base...

CE568 and 570 are supposedly comparisons of these two fragments to a shot fired from C2766... - Frasier has to explain why they don't match exactly in his testimony...

But the real question is how did FBI Orin Bartlett get it?

For 14-16 hours, no one but the Secret Service and some corpsman named Mills is in contact with this vital piece of evidence.

One wonders how "2 SS agents" becomes the Deputy Chief of the SS and some Navy Corpsman??

This is the same SS where CE399 goes from being NOT the bullet handed over to Rowley by Johnson, to being the bullet Rowley hands to Todd to Frazier...

So we already have a break in CE399's chain which results in it coming into being in the hands of the Chief of the SS...

And now Q2 & Q3 come into being at the hands of the SS and yet again, some corpsman from the Navy (how did he get in on this?)...

Whether Orin delivers what these men provide him is unknowable...

What these men turn over to the FBI liaison Orin Bartlett is also unknowable.

What is knowable is that the SS and FBI have established a history of altering, providing and destroying evidence which could cause them problems...

Tell us why we would EVER believe them related to ANYTHING in this case David, when their evidence to convict is such crap?

That's very possible Randy, thanks for mentioning it...

Let's assume he was literal - and that it is Shelley in the suit and tie... PM is most definitely was out front with Shelley at the 1st floor main entrance as the limo passes

The stairs out front could count as the first floor - yet that takes a more liberal view of the definition.

The other thing to remember is that if Fritz, Hosty & Bookout are accurate, the arrest shirt is not on Oswald until AFTER he returns to his room making Bledsoe's testimony and the altered Altgens theories moot.

If not Oswald... we need to offer a corroborated alternative... unless there was something new, we haven't found one - correct?

ok, D. here's your chance - show how this proves O. did it alone.

Oswald took his gun to the sixth floor....fired three shots at JFK on the street below....hitting the President twice....and killing him.

~~Mark VII~~

P.S.,

Can any conspiracy theorist answer this for me?.....

If firing those shots at JFK from the sixth floor (while using the Carcano rifle) was so utterly "impossible" (as many conspiracy theorists seem to think it truly was)....and if a large part of the assassination "plot" was to frame Lee Harvey Oswald....then why were the architects of the "frame-up plot" so reckless? Did they think (on 11/21/63) they could make people believe Oswald could really do the impossible?

In reality, of course, the shots from Oswald's sniper's perch were not difficult shots at all. All of the shots were under 90 yards. And even if LHO didn't use the scope, so what? He was trained to use a rifle in the military. And he compiled some pretty decent shooting statistics (while firing at targets a lot farther away than 88 yards). And he certainly didn't have the benefit of a four-power telescope to aid him when he attained the ranking of Sharpshooter in the Marines in 1956. So why would shooting at a target that was barely in motion at all (JFK's head), from a distance of under 90 yards, be such an arduous chore for a former Marine like Oswald?

In short, the notion that Oswald's shooting performance in Dallas on November 22, 1963, was more difficult than building the Pyramids is yet another conspiracy myth that was disproven decades ago. And yet the myth persists.

David... has anyone since been able to do it? No. regardless of the quality of weapon.

Can you get the rifle to the 6th floor assembled? No

Can you get corroboration that a bag big enough to carry the rifle was ever in Oswald's possession - that he made it and brought it home? No

Can you explain how a bullet rises from front to back when shot from 70 feet in the air?

You see Dave... it is much more complicated than "point and shoot"... if you can't get him and the rifle to the TSBD at the right time... your argument is moot

If you can't explain how the bullet goes in lower than it emerges while JFK was NOT tying his shoes but sitting upright.. Oswald's shooting ability and the crap condition of the rifle are moot points.

If you can't dissect the neck and upper torso or probe the wounds IN THE EVIDENCE, no DR in the world can come to or offer any conclusions related to those wounds... but they do anyway.

You see Dave, you need to go back a while and get the rifle from Klein's to Oswald... and nothing you have in the evidence can do that...

The Money Order was never processed (and a new essay outlining that little problem is forthcoming) - and that's only the tip of the Money order and delivery problems...

So yes David... until anyone can come close to reproducing this "easy feat of shooting" with that rifle... it hasn't been proven it can be done.

When you figure out how to dismiss an entire ER of nurses and doctors who's job it is to triage and treat asap... who all say the throat wound was an entry wound... then we can BEGIN to discuss any shots Oswald may have fired or not...

Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.

Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Let's straighten a few things out here.

"Out Front with Shelley" was clarified by Bookout in his report to have occurred AFTER the Baker incidence...

Whether this was added cover for his being PM... who knows...

The standard signed statement that said the witness did not see or speak to Oswald at any time also appears to be a CYA move... since no one is allowed to see Oswald during that time, no one did.

The color image is from Hughes showing what appears to be Lovelady in the WEST corner of the entrance yet only seconds later (in the B&W underneath) he is over to the EAST and the PM is obviously deep in the WEST corner...

I think we also agree that the only man in a suit on the top step is Shelley (B&W in Altgens) and would have been also to the EAST of the doorway.

And that in the bottom right image, Lovelady is once again looking at the camera while the limo is already headed down Elm...

In the bottom left, Lovelady appears to me as having disappeared... with Wesley at the top of the steps almost looking at PM...

Other than Oswald, have we created a list of who left it still may be?

To me we have rolled up sleeves, a watch or bracelet on the right hand (left handed person? - in Minsk he is wearing a watch on his right hand)

here too is a slowed down version of the post shooting film as they file back into the TSBD..

And I'm sure you've seen the Tramp photo in front of the TSBD with who appears to be Oswald out front talking to a policeman

he real Mrs. Oswald was never a nurse.... the impostor was disagreeable and disliked at every job spending most of the time as a nurse, working at a bar, housekeeping, etc

The real Mrs. Oswald never wore or needed glasses..

The real Mrs. O also did not have a mole under her right eye. The woman with glasses did (3rd row from bottom on left side, closeup with glasses

DVP,

Tell it as you believe it.

I ask only that when you parrot the Warren Report, you acknowledge that you're doing so.

David...

One thing I've never seen you do is to describe Oswald's PLAN... The WCR tells us that he did very little advanced planning...

This is my presentation of te WCR evidence related to his "PLAN" of being at any window in the TSBD with a rifle and ready to shoot...

How does your telling of the WCR scenario go David?

DJ

http://www.ctka.net/2014/The%20evidence%20is%20the%20conspiracy.html

Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Oswald was indeed at the SE 6th floor window at 12:30, and shots from there are fired by him, AND that he planned to kill JFK with the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. He surely could not have killed JFK with a rifle that was not there in the first place. Oswald has a few items of information he MUST have in order to pull this off, the most important being the knowledge that the motorcade and JFK's limo would pass within shooting distance of the building. Where would he get such information, and what would that info say specifically?

Commission Exhibit 1362 is the Nov 19th Dallas Times Herald article revealing the route the motorcade would take... "The motorcade will pass thru downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons Freeway to the Trade Mart" AHA! Oswald, if he read or was aware of this article would now know that the motorcade would pass directly beneath the TSBD... in essence the motorcade was bringing JFK to his doorstep... Good thing he decided to take the lower paying TSBD job in October, right?

This is TUESDAY Nov 19th. The article prefaces with the fact that the formal announcement of the trip was made in Washington DC at 4pm... Could Oswald the Lone Nut have known that JFK would pass by the TSBD before that? I don't see how. Security according to Chief Curry was not even planned until Tuesday the 19th. This must have been the evening edition of the paper.

Is there any evidence from anyone in the building or anyone close to Oswald that he knew about the motorcade route that day?

According to Marina, on the night before the assassination, she asked him about Kennedy's upcoming visit the next day. Oswald seemed totally in the dark about when or where the motorcade would pass. (WC Vol. 18, p. 638)

Junior Jarman told the Commission that he did not learn about the motorcade passing in front of the Depository until that morning at about 9 AM. About an hour later, Oswald was standing near a window looking out at the gathering crowd. He asked Jarman what the people were there for. After Jarman told him, he asked which way the motorcade was coming. Which reveals, unlike the Commission assumption, that Oswald did not read the November 19th Times Herald (WC Vol. 3, p. 201).

Between the evening of Nov 19th and Thursday Nov 21 Oswald decides to get to the home of Ruth and Michael Paine to get his rifle out of the garage and bring it to work on Friday so he can do the deed. Does he make sure to ask Texas School Book Depository colleague Wesley Frazier for a ride home that day? For if he doesn't get home by Thursday night how can he get the rifle to work Friday?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"

And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."

Good thing Wesley was so accommodating... Asking Thursday for a ride home, a ride that would make or break his plan to kill JFK Friday seems cutting it a bit close... And he'd have to bring that paper bag he made to hold/hide the rifle with him... yet the man who sits by the paper dispenser never leaves his desk, eats his lunch at his desk and testifies to not being away from that area... yet somehow Oswald accomplishes this construction project with no one seeing him do it... and gets it home that Thursday in the car with Wesley... maybe hidden in his pants, or shirt, or jacket, or sweater, maybe???

Marina and Ruth are very surprised to see Oswald on that Thursday as he usually gives them fair warning...

Mr. JENNER - Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE - I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.

Mr. JENNER - You had no advance notice?

Mrs. PAINE - I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.

Mr. JENNER - Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?

Mrs. PAINE - Without asking permission; that is right.

It is here we are treated to Ruth Paine's story about the garage door and light being left on... she never sees Oswald in the garage, never hears him... and even goes on to tell reporters:

Mrs. PAINE - I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it.

As noted researcher Carol Hewett pointed out, evidently Ruth did not know that Marina said Lee was with her that night in her room and fell asleep. Yet somehow, he got into the garage, into the blanket, disassembled the rifle, placed it in the paper bag and made it ready for his leaving the following morning... if the OSWALD PLAN to kill JFK can even occur... maybe all this happened in the morning?

Mr. JENNER - You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?

Mrs. PAINE - No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.

In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was quite usual.

So the entire household was awake at 9pm when Oswald goes to sleep... and there is no mention of the time or sounds involved in what Oswald needed to do to get his 40" rifle into that bag...

But he must have at some point as he walks to the Frazier's with this large bag in his possession... which we come to learn must be at least 34" long to hold the largest piece of the broken down rifle. Also in this bag are the clip, the ammo, the scope and the barrel with firing mechanism... Metal and wood adding up to 7.5 lbs, with nothing to keep it from banging into itself, tearing this bag, or anything else.

Surely the people at the Frazier household see this bag? And they do and testify to it...

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.

Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

(this 5'9" man holding his arm at his side carrying the bag, and this 34" piece did not touch the ground...ok)

...

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

...

Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27" last time.

Mr. BALL. You measured 27" once before?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Hmmm... maybe she didn't get a good look... what does Wesley say about this bag?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

So it appears that Oswald is able to carry a 34"-40" rifle in a bag quite a bit smaller... yet measurements can be deceiving... maybe they underestimated; they MUST HAVE since the Lone Nut Oswald did get the rifle from the garage; where it had never been seen by anyone in the house; to the TSBD on the morning of the 22nd in the back seat of Wesley's car. And was able to tuck this rifle under his arm and carry it into the TSBD... Did anyone see Oswald when he arrived that morning?

One man, Edward Shields, claims he is told by his "friends" that they see Wesley drop Oswald off at the back door... yet this is 2nd hand hearsay and virtually impossible to prove... Luckily Mr. Dougherty was not only at the back entrance when Oswald arrives, but see whether or not anything is in his hands at the time...

After the same question about Oswald is asked and answered a number of times we finally have as evidence:

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Is there anyone other than Wesley and his sister that claims they see Oswald with a package, bag, rifle or anything in his hands that morning? Nope. Yet he MUST HAVE since his plan was to kill JFK as he passed by later that day... and we get back now to the timing from that day.

After slipping by everyone with the package he stows it... where? Where does Oswald place this 27 to 40 inch bag with rifle parts in it so that it is undisturbed and available when he is ready to execute his plan. Maybe behind some boxes on the 6th floor? Since he knows there is work being done up there and the place is in disarray, no one would notice it... Maybe the 1st floor domino room? A hall closet? Well, no matter, it had to have been somewhere since this same rifle (supposedly) is found on the 6th floor, fully assembled at 1:22pm.

Back now to his knowledge of the motorcade route and the timing. What information is available to this Lone Nut master planner of JFK's death as to WHEN the motorcade would pass by the TSBD? He'd have to know this to at least be looking out a window at the time so as to take a shot... right?

We come to find that Secret Service agent Winston Lawson tells Chief Curry that the luncheon was to begin at 12:15... that the plane was to land at 11:30 and after a 45 min motorcade thru Dallas, arrive at the Trade Mart. VIP invitations had been sent and received which stated the Luncheon was to start at 12 NOON.

--------------------

The luncheon invitation and the rest of the essay is at ctka.net at the link above...

My first question would be whether you see a conflict in his waiting until Thursday afternoon to ask Wesley for a ride home that night...

Not too much concern over this vital element of the plan.... taking a bus back to work with a rifle in a bag would have been tough...

Thx Doug.... Love when we all remember the man and family... A real global tragedy

He mentions a decoy hearse but not how JFK got moved there...

Means the hearse loaded into the navy vehicle already did not have JFK... Which in turn begs the question, was the casket loaded on the plane up the stairs also empty?

What he witnessed does sound like a different autopsy yet is not nearly as troublesome as addressing the casket and transportation questions

It's actually printed twice as Cunningham exhibits. p399 & p397

While I'd like to think this helps illustrate there being an Oswald in Ft Worth in April 1962... Cunningham #2 suggest this is in June, (p401) yet this piece of the card has no name on it.

The only thing tying them together is the recording of all those #'s circled... and the words of Anna Lewis climing that Oswald was in New Orleans from Jan-Apr 1962 then left.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0209a.htm

Your arguments and the support of the WCR is the grandest of all schemes and the holder of more "convenient excuses" for the evidence than any document in history.

I did not say NO SHOTS AT ALL... and since you have no idea whether Euins sees the firing of actual ammo or something else is not anything you can prove.

There are other options David, much to your chagrin, which explain the situation in the context on the conspiracy that it was... your desire to keep it a naive closed loop discussion notwithstanding.

But please keep at it since your posts remain some of the best examples for the horrific presentation of lies our government perpetrated and continues to perpetrate related to their terrible deeds over the years...

So a heartfelt thanks from all of us...

btw - this to me looks lilke someone standing in the window as the Limo rounds the corner... you?

What I'm saying David is they, like so many, said what was needed to be said to the DPD & FBI in 1963.

That you remain so naive and such a country bumpkin to fail to understand the graft, greed, dishonesty and all around evil intent which runs rampant in the souls of men is utterly amazing.

Watch the news David... what planet have you been on for the last 25 years?

You simply dont want to wake from your peaceful dream, right David?

Well... I'm done here... nighty night.

According to Robert Harris' theory about the extreme loudness of a Carcano gunshot, it would stand to reason that anyone who was actually firing shots from a Carcano rifle should be rendered nearly deaf by firing those shots (if the shooter wasn't wearing any ear protection, that is).

If you took a few seconds and looked it up you'd know why David. The sound is 25 or more dB lower in the firing position than in front of the muzzle.

And is the reason those at a range do use ear protection.

It is simply not logical to understands that a man 10 feet under that muzzle wouldn't be able to hear much of anything after 3 shots... so if the shots were from the Dal Tex roof for example, it would still sound as if it was above and behind and the sound waves would not render them temporarily deaf or with ringing ears.

Someone on the 6th floor with a rifle working a bolt and dropping some shells may very well be heard... especially if he was walking around causing dust to fall...

David... even you know how to look up the sound levels at distance or a rifle such as the MC... ??

Are you saying they were not 10 feet from the barrel sticking out of the window?

Are you saying that no shots were fired from that corner with that rifle?

Are you saying that 150dB or even 125 dB at 10 feet from the muzzle is unrealistic?

Are you claiming that a person can hear tiny sounds like the working of a bolt and a shell hitting the floor after experiencing 1-2-3 of these blasts?

what part of these simple physics do you contest?

For most people, the pain threshold is about 120 db; deafening ear damage can result at 150 db. But damage of various kinds can come from much lower exposures. Temporary hearing impairment can result from sounds over the 85 db now found in modern kitchens with all appliances going. If the ears do not get a chance to recover, the impairment will become permanent. http://www.faqs.org/health-encyc/The-Environment-and-Health/The-Environment-and-Health-Effects-of-sound-on-the-eardrum.html

In other words... you cant prove anything so you repeat the same things only with more emphasis...

y'know like a person talking louder to someone who doesn't understand English... completely ineffective.

How can Norman hear anything with his ears ringing from rifle shots just above his head?

People immediately ran to the OPEN END of the plaza where there would be NO ECHOES, as opposed to the TSBD side where , if a shot was fiored from the RR yard area, would echo thru the buildings at the TOP of Elm...

No matter what you do or say or what you offer it is all based in the lies of he WCR based on the lies of the FBI.

Until you actual authenticate a single piece of evidence you have nothing... Do you believe Layea when he says the shells were lined up all facing the same way and in a tight group until FRITZ picks them up, handles them, and throws them back down... kinda like the photos of the sniper's gun rest boxes which was reinacted days later for the "official" photos...

Keep digging David... just keep digging.

Tommy,

Marina's husband, the guy buried in Lee Harvey Oswald's grave, strikes me as an unusual individual.

How many kids in the 1950s joined the Marines, learned to speak Russian, "defected" to the USSR, married a Russian woman with intelligence connections, and returned to the USA with his wife and a baby? The answer is one.

Ok, you have him as a CIA agent. Or whatever.

I have him as an odd duck who would have come at the time to the attention of any intelligence service looking at the USA.

So Jon, you have him doing all this on his own?

Marina meeting Webster AND Oswald... a coincidence?

The man has an off books Minox camera with him... the serial # shows it was never sold to the public... which the FBI turns into a "light meter" - another case of evidence going missing in the hands of the FBI

Were you going to address my reply to your post above? It is not until April 1963 that he becomes "odd" and connected with US intelligence... yet his recap of his time in Russia is pretty extensive - have you read thru that at all?

So you don't even bother reading rebuttals to your poor attempts at WCR apology..

So of all the conclusions you offer, only Euins claims to have seen someone firing a shot... Euins also is quoted as saying the man was bald on top and a black man.

I posted the actual evidence which shows that the other three men did not see any shots fired... only Euins.

And yet the rifle Euins sees does not appear to have been the scoped Carcano....

Your contention is that OSWALD FIRED from that WINDOW with the CARCANO... and so far all you;ve got is one person saying they saw shots fired from that window... and one man FAILING TO IDENTIFY who he saw to the Dallas Police.

I only posted the actual evidence offered by the WCR - "total JUNK" is one way to describe the WCR evidence for sure David... yet if you are going to use the same WCR evidence to support your claims... your "total junk" is no different than my "total junk"..

Since that's a draw... all that's left is for you to post your evidence which shows he paid for and picked up said rifle, transported it home, transported it to New Orleans and then transported it to Irving... that Ruth basicallyproves he never was in the garage that night... you have your work cut out.

Ball is in your court David... can't be THAT rifle in Oswald's hands until you get them both there to begin with...

What a pile of junk science you offer David...

All of the evidence that tends to indicate that is corrupted in one way or another.

You restating the same tired evidence does not make it anymore authentic or any less corrupt... To do so you need to ADDRESS the evidence - which your posts alwasys lack... So let's check your offered Evidence and show you how indeed it is corrupted.

1) 1.) The first-day (11/22/63) interviews and affidavits and statements from several eyewitnesses, in which various witnesses told their story about having seen a gunman (or a gun) in the southeast window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.

These witnesses include: Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, Robert Jackson, and Mal Couch

A "gunman in the window" is not the same as "shots fired from that window"... so let's see how these "various witnesses" do....

Brennen did not see shots

Euins claims to have seen at least two shots fired... yet like Brennen does not see the rifle in evidence

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?

Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir

Mr Jackson does NOT see anyone firing a rifle

Mr. SPECTER - Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any?

Mr. JACKSON - I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.

Mr. SPECTER - Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"

Mr. JACKSON - Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.

Mr. SPECTER - Did anybody else in the car say anything else at the time?

Mr. JACKSON - Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all talking.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you say anything else at about that time?

Mr. JACKSON - If I did, I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER - Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window?

Mr. JACKSON - No, sir.

Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle, or what looked like a rifle approximately half of weapon, I guess I saw. and just looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I saw no one in the window with it. I didn't even see a form in the window

Couch does not see anyone firing a shot

Mr. COUCH - Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh - as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning - several of us turning - and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson who was as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor. And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

So of all the conclusions you offer, only Euins claims to have seen someone firing a shot... Euins also is quoted as saying the man was bald on top and a black man.

2) three spent shells.... Since you have not been able to associate the rifle with Oswald other than using the rifle itself as its own evidence (a tautology which is devious yet proves nothing)

You see David, the problem is not just bad evidence, it's that the FBI's own reports contradict the final evidence offered. Since we are not given any June 1962 shipment to Kleins records other than from Feldsott... how does the FBI know any specific info from the June 1962 order?

You see, Feldsott - with the records turned over to the FBI - tells us that C2766 was shipped in June 1962. That even though the Kleins ORDER BLANK says they shipped C2766, there is no r3ecord of Kleins ever receiving that rifle... only two others with similar #'s. Since Rupp never kept records of serial numbers and then stopped naming the specific cases he removed from Harborside... there is NO EVIDENCE to prove that Rupp ever handled or shipped Kleins that rifle.

As it says. "ALSO SHIPPED TO KLEINS on 3/27/63 RIFLE WITH SN C2746" David, do you have a copy of the 3/27/63 shipment to Klein's? It's not in the evidence yet Feldsott obviously gave them info related to these shipments...

If you can't ever prove Oswald was in possession of the rifle (fingerprints after the fact don't count unless you can get the rifle to him in the first place)then the "three spent shells" have nothing at all to do with him.

#3 is just a repeat of # 2 without evidence as well - Until you prove the connection David, you saying it was his rifle is a misrepresentation of the evidence offered.

4) If the shots were fired 10 feet from their heads, there is no way in physical reality that they could hear much of anything, let alone the working of a bolt and dropping of shells...

Their own testimony DISPROVES that the shots could have come from above them... in that they repeatedly are not sure where the shots came from and are amazed to suggest it was right above them.

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."

With their ears ringing from a 150dB sound, they "believe"? and yet another 150dB shot and they still are guessing? and yet a 3rd loud noise and Norman can hear shells? Believe whatever you like.

So really David, at the end of the day all you have is Euins seeing shots, and Brennen seeing most of a rifle that had no scope... Couch and Jackson only saw aftermath. And you still cannot prove a connection between Oswald and that rifle.