David Josephs

Present YOUR work Greg and let others worry about themselves.

Your concern over my place in the hierarchy is sweet and all...

yet you have enough problems of your own with which to deal. I'll be fine, mate.

Proof Greg... your word here means nothing.

So Lee H here was NOT in the 1st battalion as listed above?

And you have a listing for ALLEN R FELDE in the 2nd Battalion somewhere that's not the FBI report from June 1964? Post the USMC source for that determination Greg.

Gee... One Oswald listed in the 1st Battalion with Alexander D FELDE

and another Oswald in the 2nd Battalion with ALLEN FELDE according to the FBI

at the same time? Congrats Greg, you're actually learning.

If the EVIDENCE + OSWALD'S ACTIONS don't add up to a guilt Lee H. Oswald on 11/22/63, I'd sure like to know why not.

Because - oh, deaf one - the EVIDENCE IS NOT AUTHENTIC.

The BOTTOM red arrow is at the level of the throat wound location as seen from the back and somewhat accurately depicted in Ryberg

The holes in the jacket and shirt are no where close to the "IN" location or Ford's change to Ryberg's "IN" location.

The SBT is based on very specific things happening which includes a bullet traveling on a DOWNWARD TRAJECTORY from the back to the front and thru to John.

So do us a favor David... on the bottom image on the right... place a dot where YOU blieve the bullet entered...

On this image it's not hard to see how the Evidence IS the Conspiracy

The EVIDENCE as offered is not representative of the evidence as collected.

Except you see Tracy, this is not the only time they do these things, this is HOW they did these things.

I found a report from Sept 21 1964 backdated to Dec 16 1963 just to show they had info on a bus from New Orleans to Houston that Oswald COULD have been on... but it was not discovered in Dec... but 3 days prior to the publishing of the report... yet the report claims that Oswald HAD to take the 12:20pm bus since it's the only one that gets him to Houston on time... The FBI is unbelieveably complicit in every aspect of this conspiracy..

When Felde was interviewed for a local Wisconsin paper he story was picked up by LIFE MAG.... The man's name in the Unit Diaries is Alexander D Felde corrected from "Alesander". with SN# 1641924....

The FBI and USMC did not look for Allen R Felde as the articel states, but Robert Allen Felde... a completely different person. They keep his name Allen R Felde and finally find him in June 1964... (CE1962)

The FBI did make mistakes Tracy - but to deny they purposefully hid the identity of those who interacted with either Harvey or Lee at the wrong times to corroborate the history - is to deny the reality of the FBI (and Secret Service) in this conspiracy. The FBi did more things to hide the facts than to find them... to correct initial truths with uncorroborated lies...

Hopefully, as you continue this wonderful work of checking the stories (of which you've now done a few related to H&L) I hope you will remain aware of the FBI's purpose - incriminate Oswald while de-emphasizing anything that conflicts with the official story and timelines, period.

Do you now accept that in the case of the Roosevelt Hotel, there was no intent to mislead or hide anything; that it was the kind of mistake big bureaucracies tend to make?

With regard to Felde, your logic has gone AWOL. How is the FBI to blame if the make an inquiry with the USMC about "Allen Felde" and they are given details for a "Robert Allen Felde"? This is just you, Hargroves and Armstrong twisting the facts to suit your biases.

If you want a genuine case of the FBI wanting to avoid finding someone, just ask - I'll give it to you. This isn't such a case.

The FBI went to St. Louis, to the records center and only claim to have found Robert Allen with the wrong SN#.

The Milwaukee Journal got an anonymous call about an ALLEN R FELDE having spent time with Oswald.

None of the USMC records include ALLEN R, only ALEXANDER D. FELDE. Yet the FBI could not find a record of ALEXANDER D. ?? whatever.

If there is something you want to post Greg, post it.

Show us Greg, telling us your offerings are "genuine" is like someone saying "Trust me". RED FLAG

So far your "supporting source documentation" has been woefully inadequate in showing anything you offer is "genuine" but rather is simply your opinion after a poor reading and analysis of the evidence.

Your supporting documentation needs to stand on its own Greg. yours never seems to have any legs to stand on at all...

so i can assume that what's stricken through in 263 is what was actually in 263 and was changed in 273? even though it's stricken, it's the original wording?

and even though Lansdale wasn't given his life's desire to "run" viet nam, isn't it safe to say he would have been a mover in this thing before hand?

Yes Glenn... the crossed out text in red shows what 263 was before the changes...

It really is quite simple.

Anyone offering up anything FROM the WCR or HSCA or the ARRB needs to authenticate it. Period.

If we are asked to take the word of the intelligence agency producing said evidence, don't, they are bound by the same rules of evidence as the rest of us.

---------------

Brian - you've really only just touched on the story if you're ending Landsdale's Vietnam presence with his retirement...

First he's put into the "Food for Peace" program as a consultant and then:

Lansdale continued to advocate a non-military solution to Vietnam and in 1965, under orders from President Lyndon B. Johnson, the new US ambassador in Saigon, Henry Cabot Lodge, put Lansdale in charge of the "pacification program" in the country. As Newsweek reported: " Lansdale is expected to push hard for a greater effort on the political and economic fronts of the war, while opposing the recent trend bombing and the burning of villages."

In February 1966 Lansdale was removed from his position in control of the pacification program. However, instead of giving the job to a Vietnamese, William Porter, was given the post. Lansdale was now appointed as a senior liaison officer, with no specific responsibilities.

That's CIA speak for "he's working for us but just not officially"...

David,

What we have here is a matter of perception. Where you see a willful act of manipulation I tend to see mistakes. And the mistakes that are a part of everyday life are what the Harvey & Lee theory is built on. And in Oswald's case because of his strange past (moving so many times, defecting to Russia, etc.) there were more opportunities for mistakes and oddities.

Forget H&L for a minute Tracy...

I can illustrate deliberate acts of deception in the FBI case at every turn... What you call mistakes cannot explain the duplication of reports where one says one thing and another says something else.

Where the FBI goes out of its way NOT to find the correct people, NOT to ask them about the correct years, NOT to ask them about the correct witnesses and then conclude the info incriminates Oswald.

Your incredibly micro view of the evidence seems to preclude from seeing a bigger picture...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=194&tab=page is one report and

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=196&tab=page is basically the same exact report but now only DOLAN is on it.

In the first one on the left, these three FBI agents let us know that WALDMAN KEEPS THE MICROFILM in a safe under his control and will wait to be subpeonaed if need be. The WCR does not distinguish how the Microfilm was acquired...

So tell me Tracy... this is just a mistake? One report Wladman keeps the film, an almost identical report an Waldman is given a receipt for the film...

Did you know that DOLAN claims the FBI reporduced the film and gave a copy back to Waldman on Dec 6th? We have no idea that what the FBI claims comes off that film, actually did.

So please, sell the "FBI made mistakes" bunko somewhere else. When it came to the incrimination of Oswald the FBI fell over themselves to do so... Just ask a lawyer named OCHOA in Mexico, a man named Bosch at Frontera bus lines, or MAJOR GREEN of Continental bus lines whose Sept 1964 "report" is backdated to Dec 16, 1963 so that evidence that Oswald had a bus to leave New Orleans on is part of this early investigation and charade.

FBI Mistakes is a cop out Tracy. Do the work and it will become more and more obvious to you

I can appreciate Jim's approach by "working backward" yet that requires we rely on the memory of Postal workers who claim they did not remember a package or an Oswald picking up said package, not showing ID, etc, etc... which I feel is indeed a strong argument for the rifle not being "picked up" - yet this assume imo that the rifle was shipped to the HIDELL/OSWALD PO Box.

It assumes the two pages of documents which associates the serial numbers and VC#s for these AND ONLY THESE 100 rilfes is authentic.

The rifles were all removed

There are no records of a single one of the other 99 rifles being shipped, stored, inventoried, NOTHING other than those 2 pages of VC#'s... If Klein's sent the FC rifle in inventory in place of the TS rifles ordered, any single order showing the same thing closes the door on speculation. not only are there no other orders, the microfilm is gone and has a dubious past and the rifle are gone with ZERO evidence of what happened to them.

Working backward is like the original article I did for the Evidence IS the Conspiracy series - I put Oswald at the window shooting and then worked backweard to put him there with the rifle... it proves he couldn't have planned and carried out the activities the WCR/FBI attribute him.

Since he was never at the window, starting with that assumption has a preconceived conclusion.

Since the rifle was never shipped, never ordered, never rec'd at Klein's like the FBI says it was... it follows that no one would have seen or reported anything at the post office and that each and every aspect of the story is a fabrication...

I hope in the paper I am trying to complete asap that I present the evidentiary record that illustrates this lie.

DJ

Something to notice... these are the 100 rifles supposedly from the Feb 23, 1963 shipment from the 10 packing slips that I show cannot possbily be related to this order.

Notice that each of the serial numbers is written on what can only be described as "a blanked out area" of that page... could be why Scribor and Westra did not want to cooperate and why Waldman rather than those involved in the shipment is used as the prime Klein's witness.

Without corroboration, this document appears to me created by removing the Serial numbers from another VC list and putting in these to account for the 10 packing slips (which again cannot be associated with the Feb 1963 shipment) Klein's simply did not, could not have receieved these 100 rifles - these 100 rifles are shown to be part of a much bigger shipment in 1960 from Italy to Crescent...

we are required to accept that of these 100 rifles which have no evidence for ever being removed from Harborside, did not have a single problem or replacement and that the same packing slips used from Italy are sent to Klein's... Given the FBI's track record so far...

I'm thinking, not so much.

PS... this is the SS copy of the FBI copy of the VC page with C2766 on it...

yes, i can see this... i wonder who's actually NOT out of their class once arriving, to be honest.

it's one thing for us - me - to hear and agree to the idea that the Pres is just a pawn; it's another to find and understand the particulars, the mechanics, the players - sounds like you've got a bit of a grasp of it.

after reading a great 'new' book on the Bay Of Pigs released 2012 and seeing GHWBush's name attached i began accepting that Bush is a player throughout.

Still. LBJ was such a POS. it's hard not to want to blame him for stuff.

I find that reading books about the people yet not about the assassination is very helpful...

As to those who control the presidency: I suggest a copy of THE WISE MEN which I found on Amazon for not very much... It's written by "one of the elite" which winds up making what these men did sound saintly..

some of it was, by most of it was not.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Wise-Men-Friends-World/dp/1476728828

This is a comparison of NSAM263 and 273 highlighting the only changes/deletions - it is claimed this was completed prior to 11/22

---------------------------

THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON

November 26, 1963

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 273

TO: The Secretary of State

The Secretary of Defense

The Director of Central Intelligence

The Administrator, AID

The Director, USIA

The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned:

1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all U. S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose.

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U. S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves width this objective in view.

4. The President expects that all senior officers of the Government will move energetically to insure the full unity of support for established U.S. policy in South Vietnam. Both in Washington and in the field, it is essential that the Government be unified. It is of particular importance that express or implied criticism of officers of other branches be scrupulously avoided in all contacts with the Vietnamese Government and with the press. More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting, of November 20. The offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned are indicated in each case.

5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only the control of hamlets but the productivity of this area, especially where the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces.

(Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.)

6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U. S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import, distribution, and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta.

(Action: AID and DOD as appropriate. )

7. Planning should include different levels of possible increased activity, and in each instance there should be estimates of such factors as:

A. Resulting damage to North Vietnam;

B. The plausibility of denial;

C. Possible North Vietnamese retaliation;

D. Other international reaction.

Plans should be submitted promptly for approval by higher authority.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA. )

8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be a developed and submitted for approval by higher authority for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enterprise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should include a redefined method of political guidance for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA.)

9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular a plan should be developed using all available evidence and methods of persuasion for showing the Cambodians that the recent charges against us are groundless.

(Action: State.)

10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jorden Report, as powerful and complete as possible.

(Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.)

s/ McGeorge Bundy

McGeorge Bundy

cc:

Mr. Bundy

Mr. Forrestal

Mr. Johnson

NSC Files

(page 3 of 3 pages)

[DECLASSIFIED - was classified TOP SECRET

Auth: EO 11652

Date: 6-8-76

By: Jeanne W. Davis

NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL ]

11/21/63

DRAFT

TOP SECRET

NATIONAL SECURITY ACTION MEMORANDUM NO. 263

The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge. He directs that the following guidance be issued to all concerned:

1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all decisions and U. S. actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose.

2. The objectives of the United States with respect to the withdrawal of U. S. military personnel remain as stated in the White House statement of October 2, 1963.

3. It is a major interest of the United States Government that the present provisional government of South Vietnam should be assisted in consolidating itself and in holding and developing increased public support. All U.S. officers should conduct themselves with this objective in view.

4. It is of the highest importance that the United States Government avoid either the appearance or the reality of public recrimination from one part of it against another, and the President expects that all senior officers of the Government will take energetic steps to insure that they and their subordinates go out of their way to maintain and to defend the unity of the United States Government both here and in the field.

More specifically, the President approves the following lines of action developed in the discussions of the Honolulu meeting of November 20. The office or offices of the Government to which central responsibility is assigned is indicated in each case.

5. We should concentrate our own efforts, and insofar as possible we should persuade the Government of South Vietnam to concentrate its efforts, on the critical situation in the Mekong Delta. This concentration should include not only military but political, economic, social, educational and informational effort. We should seek to turn the tide not only of battle but of belief, and we should seek to increase not only our control of land but the productivity of this area wherever the proceeds can be held for the advantage of anti-Communist forces.

(Action: The whole country team under the direct supervision of the Ambassador.)

6. Programs of military and economic assistance should be maintained at such levels that their magnitude and effectiveness in the eyes of the Vietnamese Government do not fall below the levels sustained by the United States in the time of the Diem Government. This does not exclude arrangements for economy on the MAP account with respect to accounting for ammunition, or any other readjustments which are possible as between MAP and other U. S. defense resources. Special attention should be given to the expansion of the import distribution and effective use of fertilizer for the Delta.

(Action: AID and DOD as appropriate. )

7. With respect to action against North Vietnam, there should be a detailed plan for the development of additional Government of Vietnam resources, especially for sea-going activity, and such planning should indicate the time and investment necessary to achieve a wholly new level of effectiveness in this field of action.

(Action: DOD, and CIA. )

8. With respect to Laos, a plan should be a developed for military operations up to a line up to 50 kilometers inside Laos, together with political plans for minimizing the international hazards of such an enter- prise. Since it is agreed that operational responsibility for such undertakings should pass from CAS to MACV, this plan should provide an alternative method of political liaison for such operations, since their timing and character can have an intimate relation to the fluctuating situation in Laos.

(Action: State, DOD, and CIA.)

9. It was agreed in Honolulu that the situation in Cambodia is of the first importance for South Vietnam, and it is therefore urgent that we should lose no opportunity to exercise a favorable influence upon that country. In particular, measures should be undertaken to satisfy ourselves completely that recent charges from Cambodia are groundless, and we should put ourselves in a position to offer to the Cambodian a full opportunity to satisfy themselves on this same point.

(Action: State.)

10. In connection with paragraphs 7 and 8 above, it is desired that we should develop as strong and persuasive a case as possible to demonstrate to the world the degree to which the Viet Cong is controlled, sustained and supplied from Hanoi, through Laos and other channels. In short, we need a more contemporary version of the Jorden Report, as powerful and complete as possible.

(Action: Department of State with other agencies as necessary.)

McGeorge Bundy

TOP SECRET

[DECLASSIFIED - was classified TOP SECRET

Auth: EO 12356, Sec. 3.4

Date: 1/21/91

By: SKF, NARA

What seems to happen with these critically important topics is something I wrote on a differet post just now:

The presentation of truth in any subject is inversely proportionate to the amount of info the WCR offered....

When they know there is something very wrong with the evidence it is usually spread out across the volumes and WCDs and then hidden within any and all tangents they can find.

At the end of the day we are expected to believe that a Finance manager and a Management Analyst were responsible for firing up the Records Facility computers on a Saturday evening, (in reality the "reporting agent SA' BURKE, PARKER and/or GRIMES, JR state they THEY experienced difficulty in bringing up these computers at the Federal Records Center... the Finance Manager tells these SS agents (even though it is they who already have someone on the inside firing up computers) that they will need an employee of the facility to physically obtain the PMO. (WCD 87, p119)

We come to find the initial request to find the PMO had come from a Postal Inspector in FORT WORTH who tells the Deputy Chief of the Postal Insp Service in DC that the PMO will be given to the Secret Service.

At 9:30pm the Finance officer reports to the SS that he now has the original PMO in his possession. by 10:10pm SA Parker has the PMO (WCD 87 p120)

At 7:55pm 1 hour and 35 minutes earlier, while Chicago SS is on the phone with Dallas SS, Chicago SS learns the money order has been found by "Postal Inspectors" in DC and has been forwarded to SS Deputy Chief PATERNI

At 8:00pm SAIC Mroz in Kansas City is called and informed that the original PMO has been located (WCD87 p94)

At 8:30pm SS Asst Chief PATERNI (who should have the original PMO in his possession) asks SA Geiglein to locate and obtain the PMO and gives a detailed description with "#, date, amount, payable to, and sent by" - all the info needed to create a PMO... (WCD87 p118)

the summary from page 89 of THE VERY SAME WCD87 states, in direct conflict with CE1799, that the PMO was found in KC.

IMO, once the correct PMO # was found and taken from KC storage, the one in evidence can be created in DC at the Postal records center (which is why we have ZERO DC evidence of that strange acquisition).

The first "truth" told here is that the Finance Officer, Management Analyst and SA Parker initial the back of this newly created PMO. (we are to remember that the "stub" which led Holmes to help find the PMO in VA is not in evidence)

With regards to the Microfilmed Envelope and Coupon... the Microfilm acquisition also contains duplicity as the FBI claims they both took the film in one report while the "master" for that report claims Waldman keeps the film... but I'll get into that more deeply in the article.

The PMO, like the trip to Mexico and virtually every bit of incriminating evidence is fake, created (much of it after the fact) so that history has the evidence needed to incriminate at a cursory 50,000 foot glance.

You may wish to look a little more closely to the author of NSAM 273 - McGeorge Bundy...

This was the man representing the "Sponsors" on the inside and he pushed harder than anyone for this war...

LBJ, like Nixon, was a pawn. If he had been doing what he was supposed to, he would have been assured a 2nd Term. I think the man was simply out of his class when he got what he wanted - the seat in the Oval - and realized he would never be in as much control as he had as Senate Majority leader... that and the Bush's, Harriman, Brown, Root and gang wanted their man Nixon in 1968.

The way was most assuredly cleared for him... Thane Eugene Cesar nods in agreement...

Except you see Tracy, this is not the only time they do these things, this is HOW they did these things.

I found a report from Sept 21 1964 backdated to Dec 16 1963 just to show they had info on a bus from New Orleans to Houston that Oswald COULD have been on... but it was not discovered in Dec... but 3 days prior to the publishing of the report... yet the report claims that Oswald HAD to take the 12:20pm bus since it's the only one that gets him to Houston on time... The FBI is unbelieveably complicit in every aspect of this conspiracy..

When Felde was interviewed for a local Wisconsin paper he story was picked up by LIFE MAG.... The man's name in the Unit Diaries is Alexander D Felde corrected from "Alesander". with SN# 1641924....

The FBI and USMC did not look for Allen R Felde as the articel states, but Robert Allen Felde... a completely different person. They keep his name Allen R Felde and finally find him in June 1964... (CE1962)

The FBI did make mistakes Tracy - but to deny they purposefully hid the identity of those who interacted with either Harvey or Lee at the wrong times to corroborate the history - is to deny the reality of the FBI (and Secret Service) in this conspiracy. The FBi did more things to hide the facts than to find them... to correct initial truths with uncorroborated lies...

Hopefully, as you continue this wonderful work of checking the stories (of which you've now done a few related to H&L) I hope you will remain aware of the FBI's purpose - incriminate Oswald while de-emphasizing anything that conflicts with the official story and timelines, period.

Let's try not to steal all the thunder of my upcoming article...

One of the greatest lies related to the rifle iis the ten packing slips claimed to accompany the Feb 1963 shipment to Kleins.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11277&search=rupp#relPageId=13&tab=page is a link describing the origination of Waldman 3 (Exh D164) http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0359b.htm is a link to Waldman 3 - the 10 "packing slips"

So ok... Waldman claims these ten slips where mailed to him after the shipment..

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Yet we need to remember the Feldsott interview from Nov 22/23 and what Feldsott gave the FBI.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11188&search=rupp#relPageId=5&tab=page is WCD790 p3 which mentions that FELDSOTT provided these slips. They couldn't BOTH provide the same 10 slips that were used as Waldman 3....

The key thing is the designation of the rifles on these slips... Crescent deals with international shipments and international rifle designations, "38 E" is not a designation we'd see on items sent to US customers. Furthermore, when the FBI wrote up it's reports it completely forgets that it spells out the rifle serial numbers from the JUNE 18, 1962 shipment from Crescent to Kleins... except the only evidence for that shipment came from FELDSOTT and does not appear in the available evidence.

If Rupp didn't take rifles out of Harborside until Aug 1962 (where C2766 was stored) - how did Klein's get the June 18 shipment from Crescent which these FBI agents claims is in conflict with the available evidence?

If C2766 was sold to Kleins in June, it could not again be sent to Kleins in Feb 1963.

There also appears to be a "three twenty seven sixty three" shipment as well... for which there is no evidence. It is my opinion that these ten slips - which were created in Italy to describe the shipment to the USA for Crescent - had nothing to do with any of these order directly but feeds into the June 1962 order for which Rupp kept no serial number records - yet Kleins obvious did...

The Evidence IS the Conspiracy

DJ

Yes, Glenn, of course I cite Brennan. Should I just PRETEND he didn't positively identify Oswald as the assassin (albeit belatedly)?

Like it or not, Howard Brennan's testimony is part of the record of this case. If you don't think he is credible, fine. But I see no really good reason for tossing Mr. Brennan under the White House press bus.

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/howard-brennan.html

You see Dave, the real problem here is not whether Brennen is credible... it's that he claims to see what he says he saw and provides a description of the man which is impossible given the circumstances.

So if we are going to take him at his word at the earliest possible time, his affidavit describes:

early 30's

165-175 lbs

light colored clothing

could not confirm a scope even though he sees over 70% of the rifle

see him take aim and fire yet changes this story in testimony

You see Dave... the problem remains that regardless of the lack of corroboration and his failure to ID the man, Brennen is THE BEST WITNESS and the source for Oswald's description at 12:45 even though it is about as far off a description of Oswald as can be... we can forgive Brennen since he supposedly said what he saw, the problem is not Brennen per se, but what is done with his information by the WC lawyers and how he isrepresented in the Report.

WCR Summary/Conclusions p5.

Several eyewitnesses in front of the building reported that they saw

a rifle being fired from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor

of the Texas School Book Depository. One eyewitness, Howard L.

Brennan, had been watching the parade from a point on Elm Street

directly opposite and facing the building. He promptly told a

policeman that he had seen a slender man, about 5 feet 10 inches, in his

early thirties, take deliberate aim from the sixth-floor corner window

and fire a rifle in the direction of the President’s car. Brennan thought

he might be able to identify the man since he had noticed him in the

window a few minutes before the motorcade made the turn onto Elm

Street. At 12 :34 p.m., the Dallas police radio mentioned the Depository

Building as a possible source of the shots, and at 12:45 p.m., the

police radio broadcast a description of the suspected assassin based

primarily on Brennan’s observations.

Oswald was 24, 130 lbs, wore dark clothing and supposedly fired an obviously scoped rifle...

And yet can claim that his FAILURE TO ID was because he was afraid or that the ID was already made?

Note: I have to disagree with my friends here about David's quote:

"If you don't believe the WC then you must think everything is fake right?"

It's a poor sentence at best and by its nature tautological... when we unravel it it SHOULD state:

"If you can't authenticate everything incriminating Oswald, you can't believe the WC or its report's conclusions"

As David so enjoys to forget, we are Innocent until PROVEN guilty... when the evidence used to prove guilt cannot be authenticated as real evidence, it does not prove guilt and in fact, supports the original assumption of innocence.

When a prime witness to the man shooting a rifle in the window contradicts his own signed statements - that evidence is no longer authenticated... it can be entered into evidence but with caveats. It cannot be built upon since the foundation is dry rot.

So you see David, you cite the WCR yet you don't take the next step and provide authentication, it's okay since neither did the WC... but you calling C2766 "Oswald's rifle" when you can't authenticate any of the steps involved in getting the rifle from point A to point B... the rifle ceases to be evidence of his guilt but only Evidence of the Conspiracy to incriminate.

If an early 30's 170lb man in light clothing was shooting at JFK from that window, it most certainly could not have been our little 130 lb Oswald wearing dark clothing.... and since neither you nor the WC could offer authenticated criminal evidence of his guilt, you play this game.

The time is coming... it's one thing to index and describe the conclusional conflicts of the report - I am going to illustrate topic by topic how the Evidence IS the Conspiracy in each and every aspect of the case...

----------------

Oswald was wearing a dark brownish red over shirt, button down collar, which from the side, while holding a rifle to shoot would not show too much white T-shirt.

The Nov affidavit states he was looking at the man in the window when the last shot was fired... yet in his testimony... not so much.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle explode? Did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you see that he had discharged the rifle?

Mr. BRENNAN. No. For some reason I did not get an echo at any time. The first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and dear, with no echo on my part.

Mr. McCLOY. Yes. But you saw him aim?

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash?

Mr. BRENNAN. No.

Mr. McCLOY. But you heard the last shot.

Mr. BRENNAN. The report; yes, sir.

G'nite and good luck...

Oh, yes, David. I agree that some of the Rydberg drawings are worthless. They're a mess. And the photo on the right that you posted above is totally wrong (of course). It's not even close to representing the correct location of either wound. According to that silly drawing, the wound in the upper back is so far right of the spine, it almost misses JFK entirely.

Please try to follow David.

The image on the right is Ford's movement of the wound on Ryberg. I agree, it is totally wrong.

Why do you suppose Ford had him draw it like that when the shirt shows exactly where the entry wound was?

When you look at the hole's location in the Fox image - notice the shoulder blade... is the hole above or below the top of the shoulder blade?

Why then does the Ryberg I posted earlier in my composite next to my shirt overlay also have that hole in the exact same incorrect spot? You know the side view with the bullet path from that incorrectly placed hole to the front

As I've asked you - simply download the image with the skeleton and shirt overlay and put and "X" where you think the WCR says the entry was...

I'll post it again for you... just show us what you believe to be true

The hole is below the center of the shoulder blade on that photo, but everyone realizes this doesn't represent reality at all. This whole thing is fiction to support a magic bullet.

See that spot to the left of the S in Scapula? That is NOT the bullet hole. See that spot down about 5 inches below the S. That's the bullet hole. Or at least it used to be, it may have been moved several times depending on which magic bullet story you're trying to support.

Kenneth, there was only one hole in his back and that was the hole...

Here is an extreme close-up of it... if you can corroborate another hole (and not Lipsey or Kellerman)

O'Connor's drawing of the wounds from the ARRB... only Lipsey puts a wound where Ryberg shows it...

"Garrison suckers"

What are you droning on about old man? If anything Garrison proves the reach and extent of cover-up which was in process in the years following the killing.

Garrison excerpts from Playboy interview:

But to make this whole thing a little clearer, let me tell you the genesis of the whole "Clay Bertrand" story. A New Orleans lawyer, Dean Andrews, told the Warren Commission that a few months before the assassination of President Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald and a group of "gay Mexicanos" came to his office and requested Andrews' aid in having Oswald's Marine Corps undesirable discharge changed to an honorable discharge; Oswald subsequently returned alone with other legal problems.

Andrews further testified that the day after President Kennedy was assassinated, he received a call from Clay Bertrand, who asked him to rush to Dallas to represent Oswald. Andrews claims he subsequently saw Bertrand in a New Orleans bar, but Bertrand fled when Andrews approached him. This was intriguing testimony, although the Warren Commission dismissed it out of hand

Interestingly, even Garrsion was made aware of LEE's activities designed to incriminate the man Ruby killed.

Radiating out from these key men, the strands of the web include a motley group of political adventurers united only in their detestation of Kennedy and their dedication to the reversal of his foreign policy. One such man was David Ferrie. Another member of this group is an individual who deliberately impersonated Lee Oswald before the assassination in order to incriminate him

Of course, if you really look deeply into this incident, there is no real proof that Oswald was the man who did it; the whole charge rests on the unsupported testimony of Marina Oswald, after she had been threatened with deportation if she didn't "cooperate." It makes little difference, though, whether this incident was prepared in advance to create a cover for Oswald or fabricated after the assassination to strengthen his public image as a Marxist.

A significant point in Walthers' report is his mention of the Freedom for Cuba Party. This appears to be a corruption of the anti-Castro Free Cuba Committee of which Oswald, Ferrie and a small cadre of neo-Nazis --- including the man we believe was the "second Oswald" --- were members

And finally Ray... Garrison basically agreeing with you - so you must be one of those Garrison suckers as well... no ?

PLAYBOY: In regard to Oswald's role in the conspiracy, you have said that "he was a decoy at first and then he was a patsy and then he was a victim." Would you explain what you meant by that?

GARRISON: Oswald's role in the proposed assassination of Kennedy, as far as he seems to have known, was strictly political: not to fire a gun but --- for reasons that may not have been explained to him by his superiors at their planning sessions --- to establish his left-wing bona fides so unshakably that after the assassination, quite possibly unbeknownst to him, the President's murder would appear to be the work of a sharpshooting left-wing fanatic and thus allow the other plotters, including the men who actually shot Kennedy, to escape police attention and flee Dallas. Though he may not have known why he was instructed to do so, this was undoubtedly why he got the job at the Texas School Book Depository Building; we've learned that one of the members of the conspiracy was in a position to learn from perfectly innocent Dallas business contacts the route of the Presidential motorcade more than a month before Kennedy's visit. The conspirators --- more than probably not including Oswald --- knew this would place him on the scene and convince the world that a demented Marxist was the real assassin.

I can't go into all the details on this, but the murder of Tippit, which I am convinced Oswald didn't commit, was clearly designed to set the stage for Oswald's liquidation in the Texas Theater after another anonymous tip-off. But here the plotters miscalculated, and Oswald was not shot to death but was merely roughed up and rushed off to the Dallas jail --- where, you may remember, he shouted to reporters as the police dragged him through the corridors on November 22nd: "I didn't kill anyone --- I'm being made a patsy." The conspiracy had gone seriously awry and the plotters were in danger of exposure by Oswald. Enter Jack Ruby --- and exit Oswald. So first Oswald was a decoy, next a patsy and finally --- in the basement of the Dallas jail on November 24, 1963 --- a victim.

Paul, what does that have to do with Harvey and Lee, the topic of this thread?

You repeatedly push the Walker angle... start a thread and have at it as that too remains unproven and "IN YOUR OPINION" about 99% of the time...

If you are never going to actually corroborate or authenticate the sources for your opinions and conclusions they simply cannot be taken seriously...

You repeatedly call up Wrone and Hoover's 3pm CST "Lone Nut" junk that you didn't prove, that Wrone didn't prove and for which I showed you a number of more realistic options

In the real world Paul, we know why Oswald was steered to the FPCC and it had nothing to do with JFK's assassination until AFTER THE FACT.

There were more FBI agents in the FPCC than actual FPCC members. Finally, to me the image below remains one of the more amazing potential relationships to pop up since Prayerman

This look an awful lot like Shelley at the NOLA ITM when Oswald is handing out leaflets in August...

If that's Shelley months before he is supposed to even know Oswald - all the while Lee is in Dallas with Ruby - the plot thickens considerably...

Mr. BALL - How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. SHELLEY - She already has it, October 29, 1945.
Mr. BALL - October 29, 1945---steady since that date?
Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - In November 1963, what was your job down there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years.
Mr. BALL - Who is your immediate superior?
Mr. SHELLEY - Roy S. Truly.
Mr. BALL - What is his job?
Mr. SHELLEY - He is superintendent of the place.
Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me.

I posted the rule of law that describes who was charged for what... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22035&page=5#entry307772

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1270#relPageId=19&tab=page

This is the CLERK READING THE INDICTMENT Ray... whatever Jim says in opening or closing statements are not official FACTS... he can virtually say anything he wants.

The INDICTMENT does not charge either Oswald or Ferrie with a crime but of being the subject of CLAY SHAW's unlawful conspiring.

The fact the result was SHAW being found not guilty of conspiracy has no bearing on what Oswald would or would not have been charged with or what his verdict would have been.

Now stop being a curmudgeon about the topic as I know Jon and Dawn are lawyers... what was your profession again?

and if mama had balls she'd be daddy

"If" means nothing Ray.

He "was not charged".

Well the record shows that he was charged (in abstentia)

so your post is just a load of codswallop!

Show us Ray... where...

I posted what the court says the charges were... Oswald was not charged at all...

but if you can post the proof, I'd be happy to eat crow.

and if mama had balls she'd be daddy

"If" means nothing Ray.

He "was not charged".

You can't be found innocent of anything if you haven't been charged. Same is true for Guilt.

Since he was never tried, he was never found guilty of a crime.

Innocent until proven so. We don't disagree over Oswald's innocence in the actual deed Ray... so please lower the guns.

The Garrison Trial was ultimately a sham as much as the FBI's investigation of the crime... The only thing we can learn from the Garrison Trial is that the CIA and FBI can and will affect the outcome of anything, anywhere if it is in their best interests.

Killing ANY conspiracy was the point. The Garrison Trial has nothing at all to do with the innocence of Oswald... just like the WCR is a case study in how to perpetrate the cover-up of a conspiracy.

Oh, yes, David. I agree that some of the Rydberg drawings are worthless. They're a mess. And the photo on the right that you posted above is totally wrong (of course). It's not even close to representing the correct location of either wound. According to that silly drawing, the wound in the upper back is so far right of the spine, it almost misses JFK entirely.

interesting - may I try to understand this...?

they're saying that shot 3 was fired at Frame 375? that 2 was at 313? and that far lamp post would have been in frame 375, only in reality it had already come and gone, right?

i have noted that DVP is curiously silent on this...

The preface to WCD298 is strangely criptic and the images used in the WCR removes the strings and never shows the limo at the base of the stairs - Commission Document 298 - FBI Letter from Director of 20 Jan 1964 with Visual Aides Brochure

The problem with DVP's response is that we all know it was early... this model was completed and presented to the WC by the FBI in early January...

The question remains David... CE875 tells us that the final shot was NOT at 4+65 (465f feet) from a fixed point up Elm, but 4 feet past 5+00 or 504 feet from that same fixed point up Elm. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=897&tab=page

The FBI's model puts a shot 40 feet past Z313 (465 + 40 = 505)

These are the measurements the FBI provided plotted onto DP

From what information David did both the SS and FBI determine a shot hit 40 feet further down Elm than the Muchmore, Zfilm, Nix, Moorman images suggest?

Did I miss Oswald's trial?

Apparently you did.

Lee was a named conspirator in Garrison's indictment.

When Clay Shaw was acquitted of conspiring with Lee

then Lee was automatically acquitted of conspiring with Clay Shaw!

DOOOH!

No sir, he was not charged with anything... sorry.

But of course I 'm just another "Garrison sucker". (And proud of it).

Dawn

Garrison formally accused Lee Oswald of plotting the murder of JFK,

and the jury of 12 New Orleans citizens took less than an hour

to find that Lee was innocent of Garrison's silly charge.

If you want to be a sucker, Dawn, go ahead and be my guest.

I have never seen you post a useful comment in the history of the Education Forum

uh, Mr. C...

Seems to me this says only Clay Shaw was accused and charged of conspiring WITH Ferrie and Oswald, neither of whom where charged with a crime at this trial, to kill JFK.

Oswald was not found innocent, Clay Shaw was and for the worst possible reasons.

Misstating the facts is not something suckers like me and Dawn go in for... flash a nice smile and be courteous works though...

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/001/1270/images/img_1270_20_300.png

Are you now going to contend that Oswald didn't associate with Ferrie and Shaw.. Bannister and Martin?

Or was than Lee instead of Harvey?

In eitehr case, Garrison was not looking to convict Oswald but to show a conspiracy ocurred and that Oswald was the unknowing and unwitting Patsy in this plan.

"Lee" was not found to be anything in this trial... SHAW was found not guilty of CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MURDER on a number of technicalities as well as the court's refusal to allow evidence to be presented, to name only a couple reasons.

I fully understand Oswald did not kill anybody... but you might want to learn the facts before you post what you THINK they are instead of what they really are.

David - please look at a real skeleton on somehting that is not being hunched over...

Now find the Scapula (shoulder balde)

You can see even from that poor photo that the hole is below the top of the scapula

It's kinda hard to have a bullet hole in the jacket and short at one level and the hole in the man at another...

The shirt hole was 1/4" lower than the jacket hole due to the jacket riding up since it was not tucked into his pants.

You can dance around and misdirect all you'd like... you can't overcome the dishonesty in these images