David Josephs

That's exactly it. David. Makes sense once it is coloured properly.. Which side of the central railing was Lovelady on? Is he holding onto something with his left hand? I always thought Lovelady was standing just to the left of the center railing. If he's holding onto something with his left hand in Altgens 6, he must be holding onto the railing on the left wall with it, which seems kind of awkward. --Tommy sun Great question Tommy... I thought that too yet he is not in the middle in Hughes... but later, much later... I think he was just behind the black man there... and moves over by Couch/Darnell which is after Altgens6 That's him at the top right in a Hughes frame blowup... or that's PM

Jon... There is the possibility that the FBI removed reports from that time period on purpose... once the CIA, State and I&NS reports start talking about Oswald having been in Mexico the FBI/Hoover either knows immediately this is wrong since they DO know where he is... or they are caught off guard and didn't know where he was... and that's almost worse to Hoover. Chapman knew about the call on Oct 4th to "irvin or irvine" TX. It's hard to believe that it's not until the 1st of Nov that the FBI knows where Ozzie is... So in classic CYA they did not challenge the CIA's information about Oswald in Mexico, they help create the story... so if Hoover knows Oswald was not in Mexico, what repercussions does this have with STATE and I&NS as well as CIA? The FBI reports keep coming back negative - the tourist visa does not say AUTO yet everything else does. The evidence has to be changed from one bus to another, one time to another, while the fraudulent evidence just thrown away is not revealed for the fraud it is... i.e. FRONTERA's 2pm Oct 2 departure ... the "presidential staff" is helping secure these documents... OCHOA is helping secure them while adding "notes" to the docs to help the investigation... meanwhile the president of Mexico and Mexican ambassador to Cuba have an interesting convo... about what Duran has to say about money changing hands... Alvarado's story about the 17th/18th of Sept, then the 28th of Sept, then no story... RYBAT GPFLOOR "..... If ERTHYROIDS can give him something useful and non-sensitive to do for a few months it will help." That Oswald has a Minox which was not available to the general public is a little telling, no? But money in and out and his life are not easy to pin down. Ruth virtually paid for everything... his expenses were low and Marina's and the baby couldn't have been too much. but it is very hard to know. It had always been my contention that the Military was the biggest gorilla in this room. Nagell was MID... virtually every CIA/FBI/STATE employee was military at one time in their lives... no reason not to opine that Oswald was too and that CIA was as usual, the front designed to maintain confusion. Thanks for reading it... DJ

I believe I can separate nefarious from errors... Decker was infamous. Do you believe he was one of a few key people in Dallas or not? Mayor Cabell... informed to assist by his brother or not? Curry/Fritz... basically ensured Oswald would be killed Any 1 of 1000 DPD cops who knew Ruby and despised JFK Stringfellow and his military connections Hosty, Shanklin of the FBI and their knowledge of Oswald and their actions Greer, Kellerman, Roberts, Boring... they did not make sure no autopsy would be done in TX Max Philips and his copy of the Zfilm to Rowley Friday night... many forget about that copy... Mark... if you are not first suspicious of every activity until it can be proven innocent and unconnected, what are we doing? Situational reactions that are orchestrated within the context of the plan are still part of a plan. The three tramps in DP were not kept in jail, city or county, until the 26th... they were released by both accounts of WISE and CHAMBERS. Wise is told by a deputy, while Chambers is ordered by his Captain to let them go. The arrest reports are after the fact explanations for who these three tramps in the photos are. If you'd like to conclude they were not involved, not associated and the three on the arrest reports... fine. For the reasons stated and the context offered I have to disagree... wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong. Part of the CIA mindset of the early 60's is the understanding that the workings of spies and CI is so out of the norm for regular people to comprehend that they don't and can't if exposed to such planning. It is my belief based on the confidence gained from previous activities of those who facilitated this killing that every trick in the book could be used... If indeed David Atlee Phillips was responsible for the "story" and related evidence and output needed to produce this story leaving Oswald were he was and JFK were he was... do you believe he could not fashion a plan that would include catching and releasing nefarious individuals while stories are broadcast about a 5'10" 165lb man that results in the capture of 5'8" 135lb Oswald thanks to Brewer and Postal calling on a guy that looked suspicious? If you understand CI that well where you can say that didn't happen - you know it was not planned that way... ok. I don't. I only know what I see repeated in the operations of the CIA (Larry Hancock's Nexus is an important read)... actions designed to produce behavior, the doubling and tripling or evidence to confuse - to allow honest witness accounts of fraudulent or staged activity. The "terror" of the uninvolved was counted upon to allow the easiest of execution of the plan and in plain sight. Bottom line Mark... if you're not just a bit paranoid - I'm not sure you grasp the depth of depravity and evil that was inconsequentially employed to kill Kennedy and basically take complete control of this country and then not only maintain but grow upon this control over the last 50 years... so ok... three men hopping a train minutes after the assassination where shots were fired, along with other men who remain unnamed as well are taken in. And it takes until 1991 to learn who they are from reports denied to have even been created by the man who signed them. Move along, nothing to see here... everything's fine... move along....

How's this Jon?

Working on something... The image above is far from correct... Does this make a bit more sense - or ??

Interesting Ray - I see what you mean and that would make sense

At some point along the way Mark do you not give thought to the context of the day? The DPD and FBI created, altered and destroyed evidence - what was left was purely incriminating to Oswald. What was removed were indications that a conspiracy of some sort was in place to implicate Oswald - because he did not do it... We agree there, right? Oswald did not shoot anyone from the 6th floor - he was not there at the time. If we agree there then ALL the evidence which points to that conclusion is false. It is very likely that at least a shot was fired from the RR yard area along the south fence... The policeman on the SOUTH side of the overpass claims a train passes between him and the assassination so that he could nether hear or see anything - JC White was his name and he and FOSTER, the other cop who sees the manhole bullet scar drew pictures of the overpass and where they were. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0394a.htm = Foster White: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0376b.htm Yet he places himself on the WEST side of the overpass - where a train would pass behind him, not infront... Many believe that a shot from the SOUTH of the overpass was very possible. Point is the DPD ahd Sherrifs LIED THEIR A$$es off Mark... about nearly everything from that first day changes... where Oswald was, the rifle, the location of the shells, the boxes in the window, and it goes on and on... Yet you are willing to believe that these three men - where this is obviously conflicting info between the DPD and Sheriff - are the same as three hobos who stated they were in jail thur the 26th... CHAMBERS says they let them go BEFORE the photos were taken (you want to claim it was later... prove it... the way CHAMBERs report is written it makes it sound like JONES finds out about Oswald as tell CHAMBERS to let them go... How late do you think this is and how does that jive with the Tippit timeline in his story? - 1st how is his name on three arrest reports if he let them go and 2nd.. when did WISE pick them up from CHAMBERS and JONES and walk them all the way back past the TSBD to the RR yards only to turn around and walk them back for these photos? The Sheriff's building was not in that direction and definitely not to the WEST of the TSBD. If we do not agree that DP was a charade from the beginning, that the Zfilm - in it's current 6 pieces - cannot possibly be "original out of the camera" when 0183 is not even on these pieces of film.. Nix original is lost, BYP negatives are lost while the pose from 133-C is used for recreation shots on 11/29... 12 years before they are discovered.... The Klein's evidence is a joke and on and on... then I don't know what we CAN find were we would agree... but to you these men MUST be who the DPD says they are with reports found in 1991. Mark... with that level of insight I'm afraid we have nothing left to say to each other. I'm not looking to convince you personally of anything... you see it the way you do and you are fully within your right.. We disagree... No use beating it to death. Hopefully we'll be able to find other areas where we can assist each other's understanding... Take care DJ

I'll take a closer look yet I think you are mistaken about your timeline... Do you believe that three men were arrested and stayed in jail until the 26th or are the CHAMBERS reports created after the fact to hide who these men really were... If more than three men were removed from the train, per Harkness, what happened to them? Why does WISE's account include lies about Middleton and not a single followup report from VAUGHN or BASS... nor, with photos now available after 1966, were these men ever asked about them? Just curious what you think...

Believe it was Sean Murphy who ID's the man in the corner next to Lovelady in Weigman. Who called him Prayerman IDK... it was coined since his hands are clasped in front of him in "prayer"

Well done Mark... my mistake.. Now what about all the rest of the post...? When CHAMBERS arrives at DPD and starts working with the hobos he is informed by JONES that Oswald has been caught and they are FREE TO GO... He never sees them again... Yet his name is on their arrest reports The three all claim to have been there until the 26th then released How can they be going back and forth and back to Decker while CHAMBERS is with them between the time Tippit is killed and Oswald is caught... when the photos of the men are taken between 2:20 and 2:30?

Can you include sources, links and/or the evidence from which you come to any conclusions... ? Better yet, go read the work first... or will we be given your opinionated attack-rhetoric based on what you think I said and what you think the evidence is rather than doing your homework first? Why not ask Jim D if you can prepare a review and critique of the 6 articles? that way you can not read it and make it up as you go along to the CTKA crowd as well .

I cover some of this in pt 6 of the Mexico series at CTKA which just now was posted.... http://www.ctka.net/2015/chapter6_3c.pdf On Sept 24th FBI NOLA sent in a report to Hoover (page 3) related to the the earlier August reports about his arrest down there. The next report generated by the FBI which does not rely on CIA reports related to Mexico is Kaack's on Oct 31st (page 11) https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10413&relPageId=2 The FBI, on it's own, does not know where Oswald is... or as I discuss in the paper... he went to Odio and the FBI either knows and does not say, or simply does not know where he is during the time in question. The EVIDENCE offers that a Harvey Oswald was in Austin at the SSS office on Sept 25th... what I said about Houston was that the FBI made the assumption that he took a bus which was not identified until Sept 64 and then backdated to Dec 10th 1963... a 12:20 bus from NOLA to Houston for which there are no records or evidence. The Twifords claim he called their house between 7-10pm yet this bus does not arrive until closer to 11pm. The story of the man in Houston buying a ticket from HAMMETT is also an interesting one... and begs the question as to why Oswald would buy tickets one at a time for an innocent trip to Mexico City when 3 and 4 part tickets were available taking him all the way there. As to what he was doing... the EVIDENCE suggests he traveled with two Cubans thru Austin and visits Odio in the evening of the 27th. On Sept 28th we have a Sports Drome sighting in the Evidence. Who this is, as I've said many times now, is not really the point... the testimony it was Oswald remains... https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=44&relPageId=378 Liebeler: The Commission had information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was LEE HARVEY OSWALD? Price: That's right. The first time I saw this person was in September, the last week, the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon they opened the rifle range. Liebeler: On the last Saturday of September? That would be Saturday, September 28, 1963? Price: Yes The FBI's initial report WCD1 states that the FBI received reports that someone possibly identical to Lee Harvey Oswald had been in Mexico (page 12). It takes the FBI until Nov 1st to find, via Ruth Paine, that he had been working at the TSBD and living at some unknown location in Dallas - no mention of him staying with her, which he had since Oct 4th.. https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57690&relPageId=178 If you would go read the work you will see that the FBI uses its own sources to see if Oswald was in Mexico. On the 4th, 6th and 8th of Nov reports come in that none of the sources in Mexico City has any information related to Oswald having been seen or contacting anyone in the Cuban/Russian Communist communities. The Nov 8th report discusses a check at the Gobernacion (FBI's asset OCHOA works here) and yet again... negative results for Oswald. OCHOA (and his dept) will be the source for all the travel evidence the FBI secures on Oswald... On page 44 of the article we see that once again the FBI's sources in Mexico City cannot find any proof Oswald was there - this report is dated 11/23 - and is followed on page 46 with the CIA report from Win Scott (Willard C Curtis) to CIA HQ laying out the CIA's story which never changed... He is positively identified by Odio and her sister as the man who came to their home... and she narrowed the date down to the 26th, 27th or 28th. Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination? Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately. Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture? Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure. Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it? Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts. Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then? Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then. Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that? Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday. (26th was a Thursday and a travel day, while CIA reports place an Oswald in Mexico on the 27th and 28th) On Nov 27th CHAPMAN reports that they are aware Oswald made a long distance call to Irving on Oct 4th from Dallas... https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=742220 Other than that, I have found no physical evidence from the FBI which hints at where they thought he was during that time other than the mountain of fraudulent evidence which changes numerous times between discovery and the final determination of his trip...

It appears that CW was referring to the Lovelady character if you read the first post on that page... not the last. CW has to make this assumption: which I do not see any evidence for in those frames... and we all know that PM is still in the dark corner at the same time The opening frames of Wiegman show Shelley, Lovelady, and Calvary at the traffic light pole and in the same frame Oswald is standing on the top landing in the middle of the TSBD entrance way.

Your #34 is incorrect Mark... which is now #32. Wise brings the men to DECKER not FRITZ when he starts to feel "ashamed and guilty" The last WISE knows these men are with Decker and then released while at 4pm according to CHAMBERS arrest reports, these three men are being booked - half-assed as it may be... There is no physical evidence which connects the men in the DP photos to the men on CHAMBERS' arrest reports. 32. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK. 38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail. and then all you say is that the tramps were escorted outside of Wise's presence... What happened to the part of the report that states: "WISE was told by a deputy that the three had been released" DECKER's COUNTY jail and the DPD CITY Jail are not the same thing Mark. The information on the shooting of Tippit occurs WHEN? 40 minutes (or so) after the assassination so about 1:15pm When they get to the DPD and CHAMBERS is assigned these hobos just after this info is heard, the timing appears to be BEFORE the DP tramp photos are even taken... Neither Jones or Grinell write a report related to these men being detained let alone arrest reports written & signed by CHAMBERS. CHAMBERS does not even confirm this yet they are found, incomplete as they are, in the DPD archives years later... hmmmm. JONES comes in to tell CHAMBERS they arrested a suspect - WHEN does that occur Mark? BEFORE 2pm if I remember correctly. In fact isn't Oswald back at the DPD before 2:30? 1:53 15 (Capt. C.E. Talbert) Do you have the suspect arrested in the TexasTheater? 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Yes, sir. Him and his gun. CHAMBERS says he is then told to let them go. Didn't we conclude the DP photos are taken after 2:30? In 1966, a JFK assassination researcher, Richard E. Sprague, came across seven unpublished newspaper photographs that had been taken in Dealey Plaza between 2:20 and 2:30pm on 22 November 1963. http://22november1963.org.uk/three-tramps-in-dealey-plaza Can you help me understand this conflict?

Ray - I do not post that I think it is the black man's arm - do I? I left that uncolored because even though it looks like the same material as Lovelady's shirt - and does appear to be his arm... it simply looks unnatural and cut off as BA observed. We agree that the white of the sirt of the man behind him does butt up against his shoulder Here is an extreme close-up of the white shirt, cheek and shoulder and a version farther back with more contrast The shadow on the left shoulder comes from where? (btw - due respect to the image makers here... most of what I post is my work. I try to give credit where due if I post other's work - sometimes I don't know the source)

CIA transcripts of an encounter does not prove this man was Oswald - regardless of whether the CIA or Greg places his name before the quotes... But this is REAL testimony: Mr. CORNWELL. Directing your attention to the period of time immediately after the assassination, the day of the assassination or the day after the assassination, did you during that period of time have an occasion to see pictures of the alleged assassin in the newspapers or to observe on television the man identified at that time as Lee Harvey Oswald? Senor AZCUE. Yes, sir, not so close to the date, not in the first few days, not immediately thereafter. Some time I calculate approximately-and I say this because I am not a great movie fan, but it was in mid-December approximately-I saw at that time the film in which Ruby appears assassinating the Oswald who was there, and I was not able to identify him and only 2 months had gone by since I had seen the Oswald who appeared at the consulate. And I had a clear mental picture because we had had an unpleasant discussion and he had not been very pleasant to me and I did not recognize when I first saw him. I did not recognize Oswald. The man who went to the consulate was a man over 30 years of age and very thin, very thin faced. And the individual I saw in the movie was a young man, considerably younger, and a fuller face ------ Mr. CORNWELL. What differences were there? Senor AZCUE. Many differences . The individual who visited the consulate is one whose physiognomy or whose face I recall very 'clearly . He had a hard face. He had very straight eyebrows, cold, hard, and straight eyes. His cheeks were thin. His nose was very straight and pointed. This gentleman looks like he is somewhat heavier, more filled, his eyes are at an angle with the outside of his eye, at an angle with his face. I would have never identified him or recognized him. I believe I can recall with fairly good accuracy the individual in such a way that I could recognize him now in a group of 100, that is better than a photograph of him because obviously during a period of 15 years he might change. I think I could recognize him, and this is not him. While I know you WISH GP had done his homework he consistently falls short when it comes to sources and corroboration. CORNWELL - During this period was your normal work week, did it include Saturdays? Tirado- Yes. Cornwell - Is it possible that, in addition to his visits on Friday, he also came back the following day on Saturday morning? TIRADO - No. CORNWELL - How can you be sure of that? TIRADO - Because, uh, I told you before, that it was easy to remember, because not all the Americans that came there were married with a Russian woman, they have live(d) in Russian and uh, we didn't used to fight with those people because if you, they came for going to Cuba, so apparently they were friends, no? So we were nice to them with this man we fight, I mean we had a hard discussion so we didn't want to have anything to do with him. CORNWELL - Okay. I understand that but I don't understand how that really answers the question. In other words, the question is, what is it about the events that makes (sic) you sure that he did not come back on Saturday, and have another conversation with you? TIRADO - Because I remember the fight. So if he (come) back, I would have remembered. CORNWELL - Did Azcue work on Saturdays? TIRADO - Yes, we used to work in the office but not for the public. CORNWELL - Was there a guard, was there a guard out here at the corner near number seven on your diagram on Saturdays? TIRADO - Excuse me? CORNWELL - Was there a doorman out near the area that you marked as number seven, on the diagram? TIRADO - Yes, but on Saturday he never let people ... CORNWELL - Never let people in. TIRADO - No. This after the DFS interrogates her. This after the CIA on the 20th of Dec tells us that they will NOT use the tap transcripts but Duran's statements to prove Oswald was there the 28th and Oct 1st. One wonders which statements the CIA was referring to... =========== Ok... so you post more CIA transcripts... He fails to mention this person is speaking terrible Russian and Spanish... both of which do not describe Oswald. Secondly, it is the Russia man who suggests it may be Kostikov. and then it is Win Scott who, in the Oct 16th cable assumes it to be Kostikov. Does GP offer links to the source documents from which he lifts this Mark? I do: https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=12648&relPageId=3 I'll get in contact with Bill Simpich who basically has written the book on what occurs between the 27th and 4th... not my focus... I show that the FBI evidence of the trip is a fraud supported by the fact that other than these calls and the hotel registry (also obtained by OCHOA) Oswald did not exist in Mexico City. Can you explain how what GP wrote here proves that our Oswald is that Oswald when the two people he supposedly interacted with contradict the CIA's info?

In one angle, he appears right next to the man... in another a good 5+ feet to the east ??

BA - I have yet to find where your observations are not some of the finest offered on this forum... I'll add - Or how it appears that Lovelady's arm is in FRONT of the black man who we know was well west and closer to the camera...

Well, Jon, if even Greg agrees with the majority "Never in Mexico" contingent here, then I must ask about it. I'll begin with you, Jon. In the face of the Lopez Report, what are your arguments to deny that OSWALD was in Mexico City? Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul - The Lopez Report started with the assumption that the WCR got it right in their assumption that Oswald was there - so they did not bother to investigate all the problems with the evidence getting him there and back... This is why I focused on this travel evidence and come to find that it is a complete fraud. Whoever Duran/Azcue sees on the 27th, they both deny it was the Oswald Ruby killed and that this person ever came back again. and Paul, regarding Bannister's anti-Castro cell working for Walker - you'll need more than IMHO to get any traction there. By the summer of 63 most of these groups were arrested or disbanded... They would need much more protection than Walker to continue to operate. You need to get him to Mexico Paul... prove he was really there and address the workings of the FBI and a lawyer named OCHOA... and the evidence. Been at it over 6 months - maybe take a minute and read the work at CTKA... give you a new POV on what the CIA did to the FBI related to Mexico City and then what the FBI did to create the story.. or you can keep offering IMHO type conclusions....

I'm so glad to hear someone has the answers. Set the world on fire.

34. By the time Wise reached Fritz’s office, he felt “ashamed and guilty” that he had been asked to bring three hobos to the Captain of Homicide. He was convinced that the three tramps had nothing to do with the murder of JFK. 38. The three tramps were returned to Sheriff Decker’s office without having been booked into the Dallas City Jail. 39. Wise felt as if he had wasted the entire day with the three tramps.

Jon (and anyone willing to see the conspiracy for what it was) Lee Harvey Oswald was NEVER in Mexico City. Lee Harvey Oswald visited Sylvia Odio on Sept 27th and remained in the Dallas area until the 4th of October. Someone - either Harvey or someone impersonating him - was at the SportsDrome leaving the impression that Lee Oswald was using an Italian scoped rifle firing 6.5mm rounds - and making sure that he would be remembered. Lee Harvey Oswald was with his family at the Paines when a Lee Oswald was at the SportsDrome leaving a self-incriminating impression Lee Harvey Oswald was at his rooming house the weekend before the assassination when a Lee Oswald was leaving a self-incriminating impression at the SportsDrome Ms. Lorenz claims the she, Sturgis, Oswald and others traveled from Florida to Dallas arriving that weekend. On Friday, November 15th a number of interesting events occur. This becomes the one and only weekend between the time Oswald starts work at the TSBD and the assassination where Oswald does not travel home with Wesley Buell Frasier. It is also on this day that the story of Marita Lorenz places her in a caravan with Frank Sturgis, Lee Oswald and other Cubans This is also the date, according to testimony by Maria Lorenz, [Castro’s ex-mistress who has now become involved with Frank Sturgis ], that she rides to Dallas from Miami in a two-car caravan with Bosch, Sturgis, Diaz Lanz, Gerry Hemming, the “Novo brothers” (possibly Ignacio and Guillermo Novo of the Cuban Nationalist Movement), and Lee Harvey Oswald. There are several rifles and scopes in their Dallas motel rooms, and Jack Ruby comes by. Lorenz says she returns to Miami around November 19 or 20. (Ira Wood Chrono) . I will end the discussion of Mexico here. Whether Lorenz's story is true is to be debated - the dates she claims and that someone known to those there as Lee Oswald is firing a scoped rifle that weekend cannot. ================== One very strong possibility as to who directed these actions could be the man who would have answered the collect call to John Hurt which Oswald attempted to place. His involvement at Reily Coffee and Bannister/Ferrie/Shaw/Martin etc... suggests that he may ahve been directed by them yet at the same time if he was instead working on behalf of the FBI to infultrate organizations such as these his orders would be coming from elsewhere to "do as they instruct you to and get as close as possible" We are to please remember that after the Missle Crisis the US government cracked down on the very organizations it helped build to infultrate and kill Castro. That was October 1962. By the summer of 1963 most of the splintered groups had been reigned in except for a select few operating under the radar and under CIA direct control... The FBI would be the Level 1 attack dogs to find out who was still operating against the wishes of the President... Infultration and reporting was one of their main activities leading to the arrest and scattering to the wind of these operations. Yet Bannister, Ruby, Ferrie, Shaw, etc... are still operating, almost without concern for the ongoing crackdowns. It seems to me that Killing Castro had risen to a point above Executive approval and was now a matter of not allowing the softy in the White House to dictate to us how to deal with Communism in our own backyard. Maybe Oswald was set-up simply bacause he had stumbled upon one of the better "get Castro" organizations - Bannister's - and by default, the activities which appear as if he was WITH the pro-Castro forces serves to add to his incrimination of a Phase 1 plot. Since all concerned are aware that he is actually an FBI plant in their "get Castro" organziation he is put on the short list for those who could be easily framed for the murder of JFK, if and when it came to that. Any heavily anti-Communist members of the Sponsor-Facilitator-Mechanic groups (and most were) viewed JFK in a very treasonous light - which would make for a perfect excuse to get the cooperation of the key individuals needed. We talked about WHY he was killed and I replied that it mattered where in the food chain you were - yet the underlying theme was always his perceived treason. (25th amendment to the Constitution) While we both agree that the Sponsor level was more concerned with dollars... military, drug, commerce. Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President Since there are simply too many things we do not know and for which the evidence is long gone, I do not believe we can say who directed him... if they did this correctly, it's a name we've never heard or one so obvious that we simple cannot see it. Spending time on details like who direct Oswald still does not remove the trouble we have with non-assassination related work he performed that gets used to implicate him or control the investigation when it becomes necessary. Isn't thorough contingency planning the hallmark of successful CI Jon? Creating scenarios which allow multiple uses and interpretations would have to be incorporated into our thinking of the planning of this crime. It doesn't matter who ran him... it matters that he was run. We will not know what his motivation was - we cannot possibly - we can guess... but to what end? The same exact evils which were discovered by Church in '75 is what Snowden found today... only more grand, more sophisticated and more detrimental to humanity. We have reached the point where we KNOW the Military, Industrial, Congressional Complex, with the aid of the Bankers and Lawyers they employ, have succeeded in creating US and THEM. US are most happy when our favorite TV show is on, when the cops leave us alone, when the individual vices and enjoyments of life can be explored. THEM are most happy when US are doing these things... and most disturbed when JFK, MLK, RFK and so many unnamed people think it their right and purpose to stop THEM from their divine right to use the Tragedy of the Commons and the hope for a better humanity against US. Evil beats good... THEM beats US because they don't buy into the hope of humanity building a better world - they simply want, as Scarface puts it - The WORLD and EVERYTHING in it.

Being honest here, no ill will intended. I really believe you have the kind of thinking process that actively looks for complicated, and unnecessary, solutions to the most basic questions. I don't believe it's possible to convince you you're wrong, or even to encourage you to consider alternatives. You have a world view and it creates bias in your research, imo. Of course there are far too many off-kilter elements to this case than any one person can name. But I think certain kinds of thinkers take it one or a hundred steps too far and create untenable theories they cannot be persuaded away from. You are in step with Cinque, Fetzer and Baker; I can't go there. PS: David, there's nothing in that previous post of mine that you can logically refute. Unless you claim that the documents have been altered. Mark - No ill will in the least... If you'd allow me... you sound like Bugliosi trying to convince us that this simple little matter need not be as complicated as Conspiracy Theorists insist. I did not go looking for two sets of tramps... I went and acquired all the evidence I could find that was offered about these men and looked to see what it told me. Billy Bass's statement to the HSCA recounts how Officer Vaughn was intimately involved in the finding and "arresting" of the men on the train. (Image below) Vaughn is a DPD officer, not a sheriff. Vaughn's reports only deal with the killing of Oswald. Vaughn's WC testimony only deals with the killing of Oswald. He is not asked a single question about what we read in Bass' report. Billy Bass was not called to testify nor are there any reports citing him as author in the DPD documents database. There are no reports at all using the term "Train" or "Tramps" related to the railroad yard and the ONLY reports in DPD files are those signed by CHAMBERS Link BOX FOLDER ITEM DOC_TYPE DOC_DATE PRIMAUTH QUALITY ABSTRACT 02 01 015 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Original Signed Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 02 01 016 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Carbon Copy Signed Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 03 20 002 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 C. M. Barnhart Carbon Copy Annotated Arrest report concerning a man walking on the railroad tracks 03 20 005 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 03 20 006 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 03 20 007 Arrest Report On Investigative Prisoner 11/22/63 W. E. Chambers Carbon Copy Signed Arrest report concerning a man removed from a railroad box car 05 02 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Photocopy Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination 15 01 009 Affidavit In Any Fact-typed 11/22/63 Lee E. Bowers Photocopy Poor Quality Statement regarding unusual activity in the railroad yard prior to the assassination CHAMBERS is a Dallas Policeman, not a Sheriff under Decker. MIDDLETON, named by WISE, was not involved as his interview report states at the very bottom of this post. The interviews of Abrahms, Gedney and Doyle all confirm the information on the CHAMBERS arrest sheets - that they were in jail at the CITY JAIL where Oswald was kept and that they were released on the 26th. There is no evidence related to these three arrest reports that connects these mento the three men WISE, BASS, VAUGHN or DECKER were involved with at the SHERIFF's office. Abrahms, Gedney and Doyle were not fingerprinted or photographed in the process of their incarceration. Wise tells the FBI that a deputy sheriff tells him that the three men were released in an unusual way, thru the Main entrance as he did not see them leave Mark - this is the best that I can do. If you cannot see the rampant duplicity that exists within the evidence, one set to incriminate, one set of what really happened which fades into history (from rifles, to shell casings, to wallets, to locations of arrest, to means of travel.... and in most every area of the case one cares to look closely... I am truly sorry. If 1, 2 or all 3 of these men pictured was involved with what happened to JFK... and Decker was one of the key players in making sure the real perps were never caught (which I believe he was) the notion that he let them go from the Sheriff's office while records are later found in the DPD archives related to the three men named (although completely contrary to SOP yet accepted as genuine) I cannot then find a way to adquately express what I found by cross checking the stories and presenting the reality of the situation as I DISCOVERED it... Again... I was not looking for this... the Evidence SCREAMS it - if one was to drop the filters of "too complicated" "why would it" & "makes no sense" and embrace the CONSPIRACY with an open mind and the understanding that we have no flippin idea the number of minute details involved from the POV of the planners of such an event - I think you will find, as I have been saying all along, that the Evidence IS the Conspiracy and simply not indicative of any of the real events which took place. DJ

And yet again Mr. V you fail to understand the evidence related to this event. It's truly sad how some will cling so tightly to an opinion in the face of the evidence to the contrary. Believe whatever you like but please don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot and Santa also turn out not to be real And also were not in those photos from Dealey Plaza. Oh, and JFK's brain weighed 1500 grams after Oswald shot him from the 6th Floor. Brilliant.

TOMMY, TOMMY... As usual, You miss the entire point of the discussion. The men Wise parade around are not the three men in jail from the 22nd to the 26th but the men in the photos. The three men processed by Chambers are the three you keep naming. We do not know who the men in the photos are, but many offer guesses from Holt, Sturgis, Harrelson, Hunt, and anyone else that may fit the bill. What we do know is Harkness confirms that more than the three in those photos were taken from the trains... And what Chambers and Beck prove is that the men they are involved with are not the same as who Wise & initially Bass walk thru DP and eventually hand over to Decker. So sorry this remains such a mystery to you... Your disingenuous salutation and backhanded compliments notwithstanding. Btw, you still use the word incorrectly both grammatically and syntacticly. Namaste