David Josephs

Gonna have to disagree with you Robert... we can see the cracks in the windshield in DP in Altgens and at Parkland. Whether Greer and Kellerman see a crack or lied about seeing it is not the point... it's there and those standing around the limo at Parkland claim to have seen a thru and thru hole. He said she said.... Since the windshield cannot be authenticated as evidence - it really doesn't matter what conclusion is offered... yet whatever it is, it occurred during the assassination, same with the dented chrome... there were shots from the rear - Tague, manhole cover, sidewalk results of shots from behind the limo... JFK's back wound and JC's backwound could not be cause by shots from the front. Pamela - I know you've done amazing work on the limo yet how can you say that when you were neither there or actually saw the windshield that night while others were and did... ? Those who said they saw a thru and thru hole - lying? Ford plant worker per Weldon - also a fib? Finally, I did an analysis to figure out how fast that limo was moving based on how long it took Hill to get from where he was to the back of the limo... by my calcs the limo had slowed to less than 3 mph so that in just over 2 steps Hill makes it. Hill is 15 feet from the front of the Queen Mary. The WCR claims the speed at 11mph which is of course wrong - since Hill would have to drop down and be running at almost 20mph to catch the limo so quickly - unless everyone was traveling alot slower - it also appears as if frames are missing from Nix as he takes the first steps - this gif should give us an idea of how slow these vehicles were moving... Also notice Cheney and theother motocop stopping and looking to their right - no Cheney gunning forward, no Hargis stopping and moving across Elm... (even more telling is the Quicktime version of Zapruder. Run it backward from the end to this point and see how the limo slows like crazy...

Yes indeed Robert - really great work even if I don't happen to agree with all of your conclusions... In Altgens we can see SS agents turning to the right rear. In the Zfilm we can see Hickey looking at the ground as they complete the turn Even the FBI in WCD298 did not try to hide an earlier shot when JFK goes behind the sign and we can see a reaction as he emerges so I guess you are saying no one hears this shot. Does it make sense that shots from UP Elm would not echo in the open area that is by the Dealey plaza overpass where as a shot from the front/side/south in the open areas of DP would indeed echo up at the top of ELM. It has always been my opinion that a coordinated radio connected group of shooters would fire simultaneously to mask the number of shooters. Once the FBI got a hold of witnesses, like Jean Hill, they basically INSISTED it was 3 shots - it would be my guess that not nearly as many said 3 as what the FBI credits. It is also my opinion that CE399 was never in Dallas but was sitting in Chief Rowley's desk drawer and given to Johnson to give to Frasier. And finally to Mr. Von Pein... there is no reason to believe a single thing the FBI, SS, CIA or WC lawyers offers as evidence in this case until it is authenticated. As Redlich writes to Rankin on 4/27/64 and then disappears to history: Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin. I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.

Yep, I sure wonder what our Man Hoover would be trying to hide related to himself or Oswald... or what he's done to not have to worry about it so much... Q1 - Was Oswald an FBI and/or CIA related asset used for any purpose - gather data, keep tabs, infultrate, disrupt... whatever. and Q2 - Would his involvement with US intelligent be reason to use him as a patsy in this situation? Actually - the question that most needs to be answered in my opinion is: What evidence actually convicts Oswald and Can any of this evidence representing Oswald's guilt be Authenticated to become Real Evidence as accepted by a court of law? "The proponent of the evidence must also establish that the object, in relevant respects, has not changed or been altered between the events and the trial. This can sometimes be a tall order, or can require the testimony of several witnesses. If there is any time from the events in question to the day of trial during which the location of the item cannot be accounted for, the chain is broken. In that case, the evidence will be excluded unless another method of authentication can be used." These are the 12 WCR conclusions related to Oswald's guilt which require Authinticated Evidence to prove: 1. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired from the sixth floor window at the southeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository. (Oswald cannot be placed at that window at that time) 2. The weight of the evidence indicates that there were three shots fired. (Has nothing to do with Oswald's guilt) 3. Although it is not necessary to any essential findings of the Commission to determine just which shot. hit Governor Connally, there is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. (Has nothing to do with Oswald's guilt) 4. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald (a) The Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle from which the shots were tired was owned by and in the possession of Oswald. (not proven) ( Oswald carried this rifle into the Depository Building on the morning of November 22,1963. (not proven) © Oswald, at the time of the assassination, was present at the window from which the shots were fired. (not proven) (d) Shortly after the assassination, the Mannlicher-Carcnno rifle belonging to Oswald was found partially hidden between some cartons on the sixth floor and the improvised paper bag in which Oswald brought the rifle to the Depository was found close by the window from which the shots were fired. (not proven) (e) Based on testimony of the experts and their analysis of films of the assassination, the Commission has concluded that a rifleman of Lee Harvey Oswald’s capabilities could have fired the shots from the rifle used in the assassination within the elapsed time of the shooting. The Commission has concluded further that Oswald possessed the capability with a rifle which enabled him to commit the assassination.19 (not proven - in fact refuted directly) (f) Oswald lied to the police after his arrest concerning important substantive matters. (Has nothing to do with proving guilt) (g) Oswald had attempted to kill Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker (Resigned, U.S. Army) on April 10,1963, thereby demonstrating his disposition to take human life (Has nothing to do with proving guilt - in fact the WCR claims that there is no identifiable motive and that he actually liked JFK) 5. Oswald killed Dallas Police Patrolman J. D. Tippit approximately 45 minutes after the assassination (not proven) 6. Within 80 minutes of the assassination and 35 minutes of the Tippit killing Oswald resisted arrest at the theatre by attempting to shoot another Dallas police officer. (Has nothing to do with proving guilt) 7. The Commission has reached the following conclusions concerning Oswald’s interrogation and detention by the Dallas police : (Has nothing to do with proving guilt and the DPD opught to be chastized for not recording the interrogations - 12 hours worth of question and 5 pages of scribbled notes - what are we missing here?) 8. The Commission has reached the following conclusions concerning the killing of Oswald by Jack Ruby on November 24, 1963(Has nothing to do with proving guilt) 9. The Commission has found no evidence that either Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby was part of any conspiracy, domestic or foreign, to assassinate President Kennedy (Has nothing to do with proving guilt) 10. In its entire investigation the Commission has found no evidence of conspiracy, subversion, or disloyalty to the U.S. Government by any Federal, State, or local official (Has nothing to do with proving guilt) 11. On the basis of the evidence before the Commission it concludes that. Oswald acted alone (Has nothing to do with proving guilt) 12. (f) Within these limitations, however, the Commission finds that the (SS) agents most immediately responsible for the President’s safety reacted promptly at the time the shots were fired from the TSBD. (Has nothing to do with proving guilt - and is one of the fattest lies we are told) here are these agents "reacting promptly" after JFK has been hit at least once)

How about this - None of the evidence we consider indicative of what occurred in Dealey Plaza can be considered Authentic.... NONE of it. (if you have something please name it) Hole in the windshield? the SS says no (never believe anything until it is officially denied) yet bystanders, and a Ford plant employee says other wise Limo slowed/stopped? the Zfilm in evidence is spliced in 8 places and does not have 0183 anywhere on it - yet THAT is what we claim is authentic? We have numerous places where movement illustrates the removal of frames: The Rifle? please Norman hearing the click-click boom, 3 times, 10 feet from his head and still able to hear a bolt and falling shells - right FBI takes ALL the evidence on Nov 22nd and returns hundreds more items than it took... oops Testimony is changed or is said not to match what people claim they said - per for the course Muchmore says she did NOT film the limo or assassination sequence.... Nix's original is gone Altgens 7's negative is Lost and is the only image that does not look like the others with the top right cut off where we should see image I don't think we are in a position to say with certainty what was real or not - I would say tho that we need to give the benefit of the doubt to corroborated witness testimony before we accept FBI/SS/CIA provided evidence of any kind - at least in this case and most of the cases in the 50's and 60's - that is unless you want to beleive this practice did not end in the early 70's...

Maybe this can help

Larry - CE1961 places Oswald on a ship from Japan to Taiwan on Sept 14 - Oct 6. (CE1962 - Allen Felde's statement directly contradicts the CE1961 timeline and reinforces it was LEE) The Donabedian Exhibit #1 has Oswald being treated in JAPAN on 9/16 (previous VD?) 9/20, 9/22, 9/23, 9/29, 10/6, 10/24, 11/3 (an Oswald departed Japan on Nov 2 for SF) The DoD tries to claim he sated behind yet he was seen and described in Ping Tung during that period. Unit Diaries show him both leaving and returning on the dates described. CE1961 puts Oswald at the station Hospital in Atsugi from Oct 7 to Oct 13... the "complete" medical records of Oswald do not include this stay at this time Folsom Exhibit #1 p3 we see double entries for 6Oct58 - one in SF and one in Japan, same signature - CE1961 tells us he was in the hospital from the 6th to the 13th yet they crossed out the "Hosp" entry and replaced it with a "General Duty" assignment on the 6th... The Oswald Ruby killed never had "bleeding from the rectum" as he did on 7/12/58. This man also did not have a bullet wound on the left elbow or ever had STD's... I think this is strong evidence in support of the real Lee Oswald in addition to the man who returned from Russia DJ

Sir - I've done the work and that's how I know what you are doing is so shameful... I posted her statements from later on when she had a chance to recount the story: Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, Bill Newman: When his car was probably a hundred fifty feet or so from us, the first two shots rang out: and it was a boom! (smacks his hand) boom! (smacks his hand again) like that. And at that moment, I didn't even realize that it was gunfire. But as the car got closer to us, you could tell something was wrong. You could see the president kind of looking at the crowd, you could see Governor Connally sort of stretched out, holding himself, eyes protruding, you could see the blood on him -- you know it's just moments or seconds we're dealing with -- just as the car got right in front of us, the president was probably...some ten or twelve feet from me, maybe, or even less. The third shot rang out -- boom! (slaps hand again) and I can remember seeing the side of his head come off. Forget the movie frames which help to confirm her story... this statement is only one of many I've posted to illustrate your misreading of the eviden I'm sorry you dont have the gumption to address why you only posted partial quotes and left out the parts which clarify what they were saying and contradicts what you are asserting... but you haven't even attempted it. When Bill here says "But as the car got closer to us" one can conclude that the 150 feet he referred to was UP ELM, not down.... How many times do witnesses have to say they did not realize the first sound was actually gunfire until after the fact.... but they do say it was a shot which had visible results. Gotta go now Bob... I'm sure that James and Robert are more than your match in discussing what you've done here....

So boys, who within CI watches and tracks ? Not more agents? Are you comfortable with the thought that Jesus Angleton did not run agents? Oswald could not have been assigned to watch or track potential problems to the DDP based on other infultrations of Cubans in the CIA planning process? Would we say that Clay Shaw worked for the CIA... or just provided information as necessary and was not an agent. These are legit questions as I am sure you have much more knowledge about "spies" and spying than I. A person who calls the police once to report a crime is not an "informant" A man who writes a detailed description of Russian life and examines each of the following topics might very well be considered a spy... If your point is that Angleton or CI did not run him... I don't know enough to say one way or the other. Yet that does not remove Oswald from the ranks of "one who spies" simply because he did not have a CIA (or FBI) business card. Are we really trying to assert that Oswald and the FPCC was not part of an intelligence operation and that Oswald was not a player in that game or that this was not a report for intelligence purposes?

No sir - you posted 40 pages of opinion based on incomplete and cherry-picked evidence... which is easily made to look as such. Speaking LOUDER does not make you any more clear or correct Rereading the same poorly constructed arguments - the results don't change. I can post the entirely of the WCR here as well... doesn't make it true or correct cause I say it is.... & If I take the step further and stand by the conclusions without lifting the curtain to reveal the dishonesty, the result only reflects on the person making the ascertion It's not the evidence's fault you don't present the entire story or fashion your argument with only the evidence which supports your theory... it's yours. and it's transparent. Years analyzing the lies within the evidence offered by the SS/FBI/CIA makes it very easy to identify your techniques, they wrote the book on it and you are following suit. Congrats! So basically Robert you are beyond discussion. If you wil believe this Klein's has a rifle they'd like to sell you...

I wasn't going to bother with you any longer but this reply is so condescending and insulting I had to give it a try. I have found that people like you who put together strawman arguments are usually never willing to delve deeper into their own work but would rather tell others how they cannot comprehend... or they need to go do more research... it's standard COINTELPRO tactic for disruption of forums... it's so obvious it's tedious. I've shown you how your "corroborating testimonies" are both cherry-picked and dishonest in their presentation... yet you persist None of the people claim the shot was prior to 313, only YOU make that distinction. only YOU come to that increbily simplistic and misinformed opinion. I'm sure I've read more about this case in the last 15 years than you can to even begin to understand - I had Vince's book when it was a free pdf by chapter many, many years ago... (Shout out to Vince btw) What has made an impact is your disregard for logic and the componenets of a coherent argument. Cause you say so don't make it so Robert.... Pointing to a cherry-picked statement out of context and calling them golden eggs reflects more on you than anything else. I see you not responding to other direct questions about your thesis with little in reply other than Fetzer's classic, "well then you just dont know any better - it's obvious to me" I posted a number of your quotes next to the full statement - you dont seem prepared or able to address the evidence of your bias toward the information you post as "support". Engaging with you in this discussion is akin to discussing with DVP Oswald in the window or the ownership of the rifle... it gives credibility to a conclusion which was incorrect and unproven on its face and takes the conversation out of the realm of reality and puts it square into fantasy land. I's all for NEW and INTERESTING ideas on the events... trying to prove z313 was the first shot may have started out as a nobel quest, you've tutned it into a lesson in how not to read and interpret evidence while making sure not to include ALL the evidence for fear of contradication... I promose Robert... whatever you do in the future I will stay out of your way. Good luck with the members here, I'm sure they will treat you as you deserve. DJ

The interview I posted from is pretty specific Robert.... I posted well more than just her stating the first shot was before Z313 Robert... You wrote: But for now let me frame the purpose of this thread, it is to show researchers that there is abundant and compelling evidence available from witnesses throughout DP and as well as in the motorcade that provided testimony that essentially claims the first rifle shot they heard would have been at Z-313 Only when you provide your analysis of their statements. The most compelling part of the witness testimony in DP is that it contradicts the official story, the films and the photos. The physcial Evidence the FBI/SS offered IS the Conspiracy. The difference is between what witnesses claim was THIER first shot, the evidence we have it was not and how you choose to interpret the statements in relation to the point you are trying to prove. I've gone back to your first posts to review who you choose to post as supporting evidence as and usual I find that the contradictory statements left off You wrote: MRS. JACK FRANZEN – FBI: “she heard a noise which sounded to her as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President's automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President's automobile.” Affidavit: She (Mrs. Jack Frazen) advised shortly after the President's automobile passed by on Elm Street near where she and her family were standing, she heard a noise which sounded to her as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President's automobile. She advised at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President's automobile. But then you leave off her next sentence: She advised she heard two other sounds which sounded like shots from a firearm and noticed blood appearing on the side of President KENNEDY's head. The debris she was speaking of was concrete off the pavement, not blood off his head which she tells you about in the next sentence. Sorry Robert but your interpretation of this statement leaves alot to be desired and again leaves off the rest of his statement: Affidavit: Mr. FRANZEN advised he and his wife and small son were standing in the grass area west of Houston Street and south of Elm Street at the time the President's motorcade arrived at that location at approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963. He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile. He heard a second and third and possibly a fourth explosion and recognized these sounds as being shots fired from some firearm. At the same time he noticed blood appearing at the top and sides of the head of President Kennedy Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell us what you saw. Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots. Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - What did you hear? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together Mr. BALL - After the motorcade passed, what happened? Mr. JARMAN - After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it was a backfire. Robert - I can go on and on but I've made my point. What really irks me here is that you take statements, cherry-pick what you like within them to support your theory and call it a done day. What you are doing here is a shameful example of misinformation in order to support your ideas. That's what the FBI and SS did in the WCR. They supressed anything agains the OSwald did it conclusion and only presented info in the light of day whcih incriminated him. I'm not sure what kind of game you're playing or why you think it important to inform seasoned researchers of the subject that there are mountains of evidence for z313 being the first shot when there actually isn't. That conclusion is only from your POV with poorly constructed arguments without corroboration or foundation. No worries sir, I wont be bothering with you any longer if this be the example of your work and presentational ethics... we have a tough enouogh time with those who argue in favor of the WCR let alone those of our own trying to force feed us conclusion such as this. Take care DJ Betzner and Willis are mistaken? Connally, Hudson, Rosemary, Truly all mistaken. Altgens photo circa 255, mistaken A (Bill Newman): Okay. My wife and myself were watching the parade come toward us. We had to more or less step off the curb to look up the street, and as the car was approaching I heard two shots -- BOOM, BOOM -- and when the first shot was fired the President throwed his hands up like this (demonstrating), and at the time what we thought had happened, somebody throwed firecrackers or something under the automobile and he was protecting his face. At the time of the first shot Governor Connally turned in his seat in this manner (demonstrating), to look back at the President I suppose, and then the second shot was fired, and then as the car approached us to where we were standing, I could see Governor Connally leaning back in his seat holding his hands down like this (demonstrating), and at that time I could see blood on his shirt, and that is when I actually realized that it appeared, you know, he had been shot. The President all the time was staying in an upright position in his seat and it looked like he was looking into the crowd of people as if he was trying to see someone. I caught a glimpse of his eyes, just looked like a cold stare, he just looked through me, and then when the car was directly in front of me, well, that is when the third shot was fired and it hit him in the side of the head right above the ear and his ear come off. Now, it is my opinion at the time --

Help me out here Robert... I am not sure why you choose to ignore the evidence of one if not two shots at least, being fired prior to Z313. Altgens tells us the limo moved only a short distance after his first photo of the limo coming down Elm. Witnesses saw sparks behind the limo as it finished the turn onto Elm and Hickey and Rosemary react to this shot What is JFK doing here as his arms come up and he appears to rise a bit out of his seat? I hope you understand that I agree with you that many more shots were fired than the evidence suggests and that a shot was fired after z313 for sure. But Z313 as the first shot? Based on your subjective analysis of witness statements in an attempt to support a theory? your theory? You stating that they MUST be talking about Z313 does not make it so Robert.... and arguing that other witnesses did not hear an earlier shot does not invalidate the conclusion that earlier shots were fired. Those who do mention this earlier shot describe it as a street level sound like a backfire or firecracker and different from the later shots. If they believed it was NOT A SHOT but a backfire, then to them z313 may be first... again, does not make it so. I have to resepctfully disagree with your conclusion and if need be can offer witness after witness who places shots much earlier than Z313.... What exactly is JFK doing in the bottom gif if there are no shots until 313? as opposed to conflicting evidence about 1st, 2nd, 3rd or more shots. (Have you read Dino's account of his viewing of the film with 6-8 shots coming from 3 directions?) Let's add one more bit of corroborate evidence for an earlier shot... John Connally tells us that 150-200 feet after the turn he hears the first shot. The elevation in West's survey for the first shot is 423.07 which he equates to 171 feet past the corner of Elm/Houston. The same legend total messes up everything after Z240 and as you can see from the following, the actual LAST SHOT was at 416.83 which is well past Z313 at an elevation of 421.75. Z186-z240 lies 150 - 200 feet past the corner and while movie magic can possibly move the head shot up Elm 40 feet I don't see how it can effect shots prior to 200 other than with what we see at 157 with the splice and removal of frames or at 207 - again with the removal of frames. I hope you can take this into consideration within the proof of your theory. We have a reaction in JFK and DP well before he head disappears further down Elm. Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm. Mr. TRULY. That is right. And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked Parkway? Mr. TRULY. He picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and I would say 10 or 12 miles an hour in this area. Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see happen? Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind. The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building. Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop? Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made? Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the first shot was fired. NUMBER 12.* This is Phil Willis' fifth photo, showing JFK approaching sign; Zapruder in background on grassy knoll pedestal, camera at eye. Willis said he snapped photo in reaction to hearing first shot. Photo was sanpped at Z-202, confirming Z-189 was time of first shot. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/GoD.html (Rosemary Willis recounting what she remembers to a group which includes Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski ) Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt

Continues to boggle my mind how our community ignores WCD298 and the conclusions of the Secret Service about the location of shots based on their available evidence. People on this forum have been trying to find a smoking gun and here we have the FBI/SS telling us about a shot 40 feet down Elm at the foot of the stairs Altgens & Hudson tell us the same thing. If the last shot was Z313... how can we as a community let go the conclsuions and images offered in WCD298, which was not only buried but completely misrepresented in the WCR Exhibits. The FBI/SS placing a shot at the equivilent of Z375 contradicts every piece of physical evidence offered. I've been posting the conclusions from this Document for years here and elsewhere and it has yet to be picked up as significant by anyone. Can anyone here explain how we can dismiss this obvious evidence that all the DP evidence given to the WC was a complete lie. The SBT, a complete lie and confirmed as such in this exhibit. Okay, one last time and then I'll move on. The following shows where the shots hit JFK according to the FBI and SS. Shot #2 at the "X" in the street at Z313 Shot #3 at the foot of the steps... The question remains: From what source evidence does the FBI conclude the last shot is where they placed it - in direct conflict with the final conclusions, the films, & the photos in evidence. I simply cannot understand how this is so easily minimized in the scheme of things. The FBI knew they couldn't show anyone this - so it was buried. Am I overstating the significance of this Doc under Hoover's signature? I estimated Z375 from seeing the base of the lamppost in the background based on the line of sight. Hoc can the FBI place a shot there?

Hopefully Larry will come back to follow this up... I found another document which basically orders (suggests) that the Mexican authorities arrest Duran which has a reference to P-8593 (Oswald) Do you attach any significance to this? Thanks Larry, or anyone who can shed light for that matter DJ

Hi Roy... What do we do as we discover over and over that it is the Evidence which is the Conspiracy... Expecting to have authenticated evidence which proves Oswald was connected to intel... when one need only look at his involvement with Bannister An anti=Castro, anti-communist "group" dedicated to infultration and disruption in Cuba and within sympathetic groups in the US. Whether Oswald was handing out FPCC flyers to gather names in an ANTI campaign, or was truthfully supporting FPCC and Castro is to me fairly substantial evidence that Oswald and Intel were connected. We find each and every person in NOLA that summer was connected - can we cautiously conclude that Oswald's involvment with the charade of the FPCC, the charade of his arrest and fight, the hiring of Steele Jr to hand out flyers, etc, etc,etc... When it smells like it, looks like it and tastes like it... we could not take steps forward unless the assumption that it IS it is investigated. I would ask this of you Roy... what if anything has risen to a level of certainty in this case beyond the realization that Oswald did not shoot JFK and the majority of evidence offered to prove guilt is inauthentic and proveably so? Thanks Roy, always a pleasure reading your posts. DJ

So we're good with MID? And yeah, the Oswald Project thing is still unclear.. why wold they bother calling it THAT? btw, it was not the man Ruby killed who was playing the Honey Bee game... it was LEE who also suffered from other ailments the other man never had. As I understand the records, LEE was in Atsugi by Sept 12th 1957. Harvey was in NOLA working at Pfisterer Dental living at the Senator Hotel with his caretaker "mom" Harvey does not get to Japan until August 1958 and is soon sent to Ping Tung Taiwan while Lee is still in Atsugi repeatedly going to the doctor for his STD. He definitely has more money to spend than he ever makes... who that source is, knowing a little about Oswald he'd try to get from FBI, CIA and Military Intel if he could... I would love to see of those Japan docs if any can refute the timing of Harvey in Taiwan and Lee in Japan. In CE1961 p3 we learn the dates of Oswald's military stays. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0414b.htm Marines basic training is 13 weeks with 3-8 more weeks of special training if applicable. CE1961 tells us that Oswald was at basic from Jan 20 to Feb 26 1957... 5 weeks. CE1962 is Allen Felde telling us the real story of Harvey who was in Basic until MAY, the full 13 weeks, and left with Felde for Jacksonville... which CE1961 says happened in early March. LEE entered the Marines before Harvey and left before him as well...

I thought I had seen "Lee HENRY OSWALD P-" on a number of Mexico based docs and then the entire Wilcott thing which he relates as the payments prior to the assassination as payments into the Oswald Project. This is according to the US ARMY MILITARY INTELLIGENCE HISTORY - A SOURCEBOOK (pdf) In terms of the MID - yes, it did end in some respects in 1902 yet: In 1903, Secretary of War Elihu Root established the General Staff with three divisions. The MID was its Second Division. 4 This demonstrated that the stature of intelligence had grown, and its function had become institutionalized at the highest level within the Army for the first time. The MID was a key contributor to the Army.s planning for the Cuban operation. This was the first real mission that tested the proficiency of the new General Staff. The official U.S. Army intelligence history states that the excellent planning by the Second Division, MID, and the Third or War College Division, .should have served to silence forever any lingering doubts about the desirability of a General Staff Corps being formed in the United States Army..5 And then it was Sherman Miles who ran and expanded MID during WWII On September 1, 1939, he was promoted to Brigadier General and served as military attaché in London for half a year before returning to the U.S., where he became a senior member of George C. Marshall's general staff. In the General Staff, Miles was "Assistant Chief of Staff G-2", i.e., the head of the Military Intelligence Division (MID).[15] In October 1918 the MID published the first Army-wide intelligence training literature titled Provisional Combat Intelligence Manual To meet the growing demand for trained intelligence specialists in the field, the Military Intelligence Training Center (MITC) was authorized in May 1942, but did not begin operations at Camp Ritchie, Maryland, until 19 June 1942. It was staffed largely by MID staff and MI Reserve officers Was Nagell not in MID or claim to be? .

Oh, but the FBI and SS did indeed tell us where they thought each of the shots was in relation to the limo Robert... CE884 tell us that the final shot was 1) SS: 4 feet from marker 5+00 which is 35-40 feet further down Elm than Z313 according to the West Survey and SS market system. WCD298 shows us the three shots exactly as the FBI's exposure to evidence allowed them: and when photos of this model were entered into evidence they become CE879 with no strings and nomention of this being a model designed to show where the shots were according to the FBI. The preface of this Commission Document 298 - FBI Letter from Director of 20 Jan 1964 with Visual Aides Brochure tells us that the model is so exact - well, here's the preface These conclusion have nothing to do with what people heard and when which at best is about as subjective as it gets. The FBI used films, photos and surveys of DP to pinpoint these shots. I can understand a few feet one way or the other, but the final shot was NOT at the foot of the steps 40 feet past z313, at least not based on the evidence WE are shown The SS contradicts West's survey along with the legend of his survey they "changed" to fit the facts they wanted. You can also read Leo Gauthier's testimony as he was the FBI agent who delivered this to the WC. NO SBT, NO SHOT prior to Z224 and a final shot at around Z375. MANY state that the first shot was as the limo finished the turn onto Elm... SOMETHING happened at around z157 - Isn't there a break in the film at that point? Pretty fast head turn for one frame, no?

Many of the docs related to his being paid by the CIA (and other CIA docs) have "Oswald Project" as a "cc". When I find one in my files I will post. https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1017644 is a link to a reference to the Oswald Project... Paul - I HAVE checked the sources, have checked the relationships and have checked the evidence over the past 2+ years with the help of almost daily conversations with John. There are indeed two ways to look at it: Time moving forward with the connections being established and time looking backward with the evidence created to fit a need - or a combination of them both. The evidence the WCR offers regarding his schooling in NYC for Sept 1952 thru Jan 1954 completely ignores Harvey's time at the Youth House detention center for skipping school so often. LEE did not miss school and when you take the time to simply add up the numbers and look at the dates... it is an obviously evidence which has been created for a reason. With the many hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming to the US after WWII, many from eastern europe, finding someone to play the part would not be too hard.... plus they really didn't look all that much alike at that age. The boy on the right, LEE, is shown in the fall of 1951, 6th grade. He was considered a leader of his class, a fighter who never backed down and was one of the largest boys in the class at over 5 feet and 100lbs. CE1384 is the health card showing both May 1953 and Sept 1953 Height and Weight. It states this boy is 5 foot 4 inches tall and weighs 114 lbs. The boy on the left, as claimed by ROBERT OSWALD, went to the Bronx zoo with him in the summer of 1953. I contacted the zoo to find out the height of these guard rails... the boy on the left cannot possibly be LEE Oswald from NOLA who moved to NYC in the summer of 1952. There is of course mountains of evidence whcih illustrates the existence of these two boys. What we find is that after that summer, we do not see too many more photos of LEE (in the school yearbook), only Harvey except for the military and the 1959 passport. I defend the work because it is the Evidence which gives the conspiracy away, not an Armstrong theory. That he went the extra step like Lane, Lifton and others to interview the witnesses both already done and those ignored to corroborate the real story. Maybe in 2014 mindset it would be very difficult to pull off... in 1952-63 and in the years soon afterward, not nearly as hard. My guess would be Nagell's group the MID... yet the number of 3 letter orgs within the military is mind-dumbing... The ONI and MID are the two oldest US intelligence agencies. In my humble opinion the CIA was created to insulate the ONI/MID from prying eyes as operations became more black after WWII. Everyone blames the CIA for everything when in reality the ONI and MID among others are the actual culprits. ROBERT lies about when he was even in NYC with John Pic and Lee Pic places him in NYC in 1952 when Robert claims it was not until 1953. Mr. PIC - So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service. In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla. I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time. Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it? Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952. Mr. JENNER. 1952? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was---- Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee that is the period of time they were in New York City? Mr. OSWALD. That's correct. Mr. JENNER. Living there. Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Mr. JENNER. Did you see them? Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave. Mr. JENNER. Fix the time. Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family. Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay? Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address. Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave? Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.

With regards to the BYP - Let us remember that they were not discovered until the following day and the CSSS page only lists 2 NEGATIVES and no photos. And then the DPD unexplainedly loses one of the negatives. Whether one of these men brings this evidence with them to the Paine garage is the question. While it may have been done pre-assassiantion, can you offer anything to support that conclusion? I do have an article in the works related to how the photos HAD to have been created. The 133-C pose from Roscoe White was not found or seen until the mid 70's. What convinces me is the pose which the DPD officer takes when doing compariosn photos on the 23rd of Nov. He is positioned in exactly the pose of 133-C when 133-C was not yet in the possession of the DPD or anyone else... Unless it was already. When trying to place Oswald's image from 133-c in the rest of the background we see how skewed it is compared to the ghost image supposedly created by Fritz to "see if it could be done". The DPD should have no way of knowing about pose 133-c on Nev 23rd... To me this is pre knowledge With regards to Kleins - if you could present a scenario for the creation of this evidence prior to the evening of 11/22 please do. I think that somem of it may be authentic like the order coupon and mailing envelope... what happens once the order arrives at Kleins and what we see on the order form could just as easily been created that night or subsequently than before... but I'd love to hear your thoughts DJ

Parts 1 and 2a are up on the site. Part 2b - all 52 pages of it - will be done this week and submitted to Jim for review and formatting. Part 3 - Evidence of Oct 2 thru Mid Dec including how INS was alerted, how the travel evidence was altered in Mexico and why the question of who it was impersonating Oswald was never addressed and ignored. I will also touch upon some of the "In Mexico" evidence to establish who knew what and when. This next part, 2B, will clearly establish that the routes and travel attributed to this Oswald are not possible and that even the references to his coming and going by "auto" are suspect. I would like to reach out to the community here and ask if anyone has any further knowledge related to this stand alone report related to Mr. Pugh - the man credited with saying INS checked on Oswald coming and going.. This appears to be saying that Oswald's brother entered Mexico the same day as the Evidence on Oswald... Any help?

Hi there Jon... While I'd prefer not to go off onto the Klein's tangent, the subject of pre v post assassination fabrication is the point. The other point is whether the fabrication is pre-meditatively assassination related or conveniently assassination useful. A 4 man sniper team in Chicago means to me that POST fabrication would be the key to determining the direction of the evidence. Associating PRE fabrication with the assassination specifically would be difficult and speculative at best. How would you go about determining this to any degree of certainty Jon? We have no other Klein's order form from which to show a C20-T750 order was shipped a 40" FC scoped rifle as the claim about Oswald/Hidell. Kleins microfilmed the orders as SOP. The Hidell Order may have been in the missing microfilm all along... we don't know. The FBI and the USPS and their inspectors were VERY closely aligned. Stamps, processing marks, etc... while not trying to sound paranoid, what they were good at to combat "the enemy" was easily redirected to provide the necessary results here. If these items are really related to the dates on them (which I am also becoming more sure is not the case with some of the most important evidence) how would they incriminate Arthur Vallee and a successful assassination there? - unless that too was "staged" to add hay to our haystack. Nope... I have to think that the intelligence community has many, many thread running thru many, many people whose purposes can not be known to those who perform. To some they are one thing, yet to others they are something completely different... the nature of intelligence and counter. Let me finish with this. a LEE Oswald goes to see Robert McKeown at his home over Labor day while Harvey is with his family in NOLA. This Oswald tried to buy 4 scoped rifles for $10,000 from this man connected as well with Ruby's gun-running adventures. Robert says no. Yet the self-incriminating evidence is left to be found with more dead ends. We need to ask WHAT is this Oswald doing leaving the impression that he is involved in a larger plot which includes these rifles. Kleins in window dressing for a piece of evidence having nothing to do with the actual killing of a president. The fabricators? Given what I see Phillips/Hunt/etc accomplished with Mexico I don''t think events in Chicago are too far from their reach.

So much has been written about those few days in between the trip to and from Mexico than the trips themselves. Like the question of Oswald even being at the window in the first place having a bearing on whether he could shoot well or not... if he wasn't there... . As I journey thru what the FBI and CIA left behind in the evidence to get Oswald to and from this fictitious trip I am struck with a thought and theory that I believe will bear out. The Oswald in Mexico has nothing to do with the Oswald going into and coming out of Mexico - which appears more and more never to have actually happened but is a series of evidentiary elements designed to give an impression. Like the Klein's rifle evidence. That it is inauthentic isn't the point, it incriminates Oswald so why ask to authenticate it? http://ctka.net/ I have a few articles up including a first one, The Evidence IS the Conspiracy, that mirrors a thread I started here a while back about how getting Oswald to the window at 12:30 with a rifle was a fabrication and nothing the evidence provided can support. Jim D. has been a great help and friend by editing my work to produce what is becoming to be one of the few complete works on the TRIPS themselves. I try to approach the articles like these threads where the images of the evidence is included, not just referred in the work I hope you enjoy and can get something out if it. DJ

Carmine... Authenticated Evidence placing Oswald in that corner would be great. I personally believe "Out front with Shelley" from Fritz's notes refers to a time after the shots when Oswald finally leaves. I was not inferring it was Oswald due to a lack of witnesses at all... I am suggesting that the FBI can make evidence disappear or change to its needs. That no one ever comes forward to say they saw Oswald standing there, even to private researchers is quite telling since so much has been discovered that was said to the FBI yet was never reported or was changed. Those who have taken the time to show by process of elimination that there are few if any others if could be... it is VERY possible that it's Oswald as Ms Arnold places him near this door at the right time: I did the accompanying composite to illustrate how it could indeed be Ozzie Bob... this is at least 30-60 seconds after the shots... I think the white head is a scarved woman... DJ What I find strange though is how he disappears from one frame to the next...

He was there before the motorcade, during and after... Mrs. Reid walks in and Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do? Mrs. REID. I went into the office. Mr. BELIN. You went into your office? Mrs. REID. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? Mrs. REID. That is right. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you? Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. Don't we find it a bit surprising that not a soul in the years since mentions seeing Oswald on the stairs.... The "fear factor" did not stop Craig or Yates or Bolden or Ms Arnold from coming forward. Here is Baker running toward the TSBD while our man is standing there... I guess it is possible that Truly supports Baker's affidavit to testimony story change NOT in order to move Oswald from higher up on the stairs coming down - for we are sure that Baker and Truly saw one of his employees in the stairway a flight or so up rather than in the lunchroom but to place Oswald INSIDE the building at all right afterward, at least that was better than his not in the building at all. The more I dig into Mexico City the more I find the FBI playing with the evidence. That someone may have said something about this being Oswald and that info disappearing is not so far fetched. In fact it is more in line with all the other activities of the FBI than not. Frasier NEVER says it was Ozzie out front? "Out front with Bill Shelley" with Shelley being the man in the tie behind Lovelady makes alot of sense. How can it be proven once and for all though? DJ