David Josephs

David... thank you. (you as well Daniel...) While what occurred at Bethesda between 6:40 and 8pm is, in my mind, the essence of the historical fraud... the bigger question remains.... How were 3 Rear Admirals and a 4 star general placed on that path? Was this part of the plan or a phone call like the one that went to AF-1: No conspiracy, Oswald alone... which is then communicated from Sit Room/White House to these military players - "Make it look like on shot from behind and CYA" If one was to look a little more deeply into the relationships JFK had with the key Naval players... and his run-ins with LeMay... the hatred was apparent. ONI, DIA and INS are key players who have offered us very little in the way of evidece. Even if they despised the man, overseeing the wholesale destruction of evidence in favor of a smooth coup flies directly into the face of these fiercely patriotic men.... and if they would cover this up... can you just imagine what else was changed and left to history? Again... thanks David. Your work remains thoroughly inspirational... A question if you don't mind: What if anything do you make of Ebersole's gobbledegook claim of the neck wound being sutured when he first sees him.... Upon removing the body from the coffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregular ecumonic area above the super ecolobular ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck.

No, David. There appears to be sections of research you are not aware of. This occurs at 8pm Scott... that's was the entire point. O'Neill and Sibert dropped a casket in the anteroom and were asked to leave... they did not see the body again until they were let in AFTER 8pm... That Sibert claims both Boswell's drawing of the head and his drawing represent the same wound is the hurdle you just can't get over... Read BEST EVIDENCE and read HORNE Volume 4... and then look around a little and READ the evidence... Quoting me, back to me is a cope out.... So far all we've seen from you is air... no substance but alot of blowing around... LEARN the subject before you post about it Scott... your ignorance about the subject matter is obvious... For my friends who have read and followed this travesty of rebuttal from these two... I'm sorry they can't present a case or address any of the questions asked with any honesty... Maybe next time on the next forum.. Cheers DJ

Scott.... These are the two men who carried an empty casket into the ante-room of the morgue and are then kicked out until AFTER 8pm... Let's try to remember the title of the thread Scott: Did the autopsy doctors think the fatal bullet exited the back of the head? And we are discussing the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE CREATED AT BETHESDA ... not what the FBI said about what they saw... We all know that actual witnesses differ with the EVIDENCE, that's the entire point there Scott... the fraudulent AUTOPSY EVIDENCE... which does not represent what most say they saw.. Would you PLEASE post an image of AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that supports an occipital only blow-out - which is what, to a person, each of the wintesses claim was the only wound on JFK in DALLAS. Y'know Scott... there appears to be a HUGE section of research that you are simply not aware of and have not made any effort to familarize yourself with it... WHERE Sibert and O'Neill actually were and when... appears to be something that eludes you... ARRB SIBERT: Yes. I might mention - on this Exhibit 157 - when we were in that autopsy room. One of us was present aII the time, with the exception of when photographs and radiology work and X-rays were done. Oooops! you mean they were NOT in the room between 6:40 and 8pm when xrays and photos of JFK were taken? or are they talking about xrays AFTER 8pm ??? (You may wish to read a bit further... ALL the xrays were done prior to the first incision according to these men... Good luck working that one thru .... They were NOT let into the morgue when they dropped off the empty casket... in the ante-room... They did NOT see the unwrapping of the body from a metal shipping casket but the unwrapping just after 8pm after the body was brought in yet again.. this time in the Parkland casket. Say it ain't so! But Sibert here tells us the body was wrapped in sheets... and that before the first incision AT 8:15pm, they were able to take photos and xrays with everyone out of the room.... Scott... these photos and xrays take time to take... and the xrays, which were developed at the time, took quite a bit of time - if you had actually read the testimonies you'd already know that... So with none of the xrays taken AFTER the first incision... and Finck arrives at 8:30 to a full set of xrays... you've read all the xray technicians' evidence, yes? So, how dat possible ??? Q: First incision. How much time was there between the time that the body was unwrapped from the sheets and the first incision was made? A: Well. this is the time that you would have had the X-rays and the photographs And I don’t recall. And I think they probably may have waited a little bit to get those X-rays developed. I recall there was Kellerman and Greer - who was the driver - O’Neill and myself And there were some others. There had to be. And I don’t know who assisted in that, but we carried it through the door and right on into the autopsy room and set it on the floor there before it was opened. Q: The floor of the autopsy room, or the floor of the ward, generally? A: Well, it was sort of a anteroom there. I think HSCA Recap: But there definitely was a large cavity and I think this probably accounts for what Humes mentioned at the first about surgery to the head area. I mean, it was just that apparent that there was that much skull missing. Sibert examined the autopsy descriptive sheet found in the Warren Report and said it was done by Dr. Boswell. He said the ".. .drawing was pretty accurate as to what we described." He said the general location of the wounds "...looks accurate." Sibert also said that CE385 and CE386 looked accurate as well. So, in 1977 Sibert is shown the following and states they are accurate... or the HSCA stated that he said it was accurate... MD46 was the revised HSCA affidavit, corrected from md155... You will find Sibert's signature on MD46 and a fairly good representation of the info contained within, in MD85. Now let me ask you a question... does the drawing Sibert did for the ARRB (at the bottom) resemble Ryberg's drawings? http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138645 or Boswell's sheet? Specifically the Ryberg drawings... To conclude again... There is nothing in the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that does not show a rear entering bullet blowing out the bone to the right and in front of the coronal suture along with creating a furrow 4.5cm deep running from the occipital to the right temple... as well as cleanly cutting the spinal cord and magically detatching all the connective tissue on the left side of his scalp/skull/brain... Meanwhile the witness description of the damage and the photographs conflict with these xrays... xrays we both agree were taken of JFK at Bethesda, at some point. onelast question... what was happening at the Bethesda morgue between 6:40 and 8pm... and please show us how there are no conflicts in your account... Thanks (side note: did it ever bother you Scott, that they described JFK's skeleton with as much fraudulence as they did the brain? "no Gross abnormalities" "1500cc's" ?)

Pat - you just claimed that Jackie walked fro mthe morgue to the front entrance AFTER they dropped off the casket and YOU are calling ME out on accuracy... that's a laigh He claimed: "The one with the body in it went around to the back where the morgue was and we unloaded it." ONE = Hearse and "We had everything organized by that afternoon" POretty good trick given they were still going to REED and discussion it on AF-1.... http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm - What he ACTUALLY SAID http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=349&relPageId=1 What the HSCA WROTE he said When either one of you can explain the goings on between 6:40 and 8pm at Bethesda, we'll have something to talk about... Until then your games of he said she said are simply a diversion... Why indeed Scott... but they did - that's the way it happened, so instead of asking WHY oh WHY to a question that cannot be answered.. PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. It took years and years just to pry this fraudulent evidence from the government's clutches... Humes claims a 6:45 time (or at least 7:30) for seeing JFK in the morgue... I just posted the FBI's statement - you know they guys who wrote "Surgery to the Top of the Head" - who completely blows Pat's "facts about what happened at Bethesda" out of the water from the very first second... So please... both of you... any chance you will post ANYTHING in defense of there not being alterations at Bethesda... you know.. show somone in Dallas who believes that everything forward the coronal suture on the right side extending to the occipital is gone... Just one. or you going to keep blowing smoke up everyone's a$$ and asking rhetorical WHY questions?

Yes indeed BIll... looks GREAT! One would think that there'd be a database of all these names and connections by now... SPARTACUS is kind of set up that way, but only on the surface.... Will take a look at Visio and see if I can't do some sort of interconnected Org Chart... Thanks for the kick start.

One step forward, three steps back.... Thanks to Tom we've learned amazing things about the DP Mapping and survey calcs and how they were manipulated... but he still has no frontal shot and yet another shot hitting JFK down the road as does the FBI... Now both Tom and the FBI are going on some evidence to suggest the shot 40-45 feet further down Elm... 40 feet in 1.9 seconds is an ave speed of 14.35mph I've come to understand that 313 came from the front, whether another shot hits his head is discussed in FBI memos regarding the location of the bullets... one in the SS possession which becomes CE399 and one lodged behind JFK's ear as of 9:18pm EST - DURING the autopsy... suffice to say, no record of a bullet removed either from the ear or the intercostal muscles exists... Based on where the FBI placed the cars... and who built the model - http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm - the FBI was under the impression THIS was the shooting sequence... I aligned it with Z375 roughly by seeing the base of the far lamppost in Z. Missing from the Zfilm then is this shot and Chaney gunning up to the lead car to talk to Curry.... so much so that by McIntyre, Chaney is no longer in the picture... I wonder if TOM is saying that the shot was fired while what see on the Zfilm inset occurs at a different time and place... or is the Zfilm correct and the position we see Jackie and JFK WAS the position they were in when that shot hit JFK? Finally... we have a few frames of what appears to beJFK sitting up after z400..... that sure does appear to be JFK sitting up next to Jackie, given what we know about JC and how he was under Nellie 444, 461 and 466 provide further evidence of JFK sitting up - or at least not fallen over in Jackie's lap... Just more food for thought... DJ

I never said a word about who was in a decoy hearse or if there was one Pat, Lipsey does... you're so busy justifying your nonsense you don't read the posts... Now you are claiming that the same ambulance that delivered the casket and Jackie, drove to the morgue with them in it, dropped it off and then she WALKED to the front... What planet are you on Pat? Why does Lipsey talk about a decoy HEARSE, not ambulance, and that the body is met at the back by him and Wehle and Bird and the MDW... and if he is correct, JFK had to have been removed from the images below and put into thei OTHER CASKET at some point... Or he is full of it... and there was not body in the casket at the front of the hospital... the body was in the morgue, xrays and alteration in full swing, as Jackie, Bobbie, Pamela et al... are sent to the upper floors... If you have ANY PROOF of what you claim, post it. So Pat... is JFK in THIS Casket at THIS time? I see Jackie at the bottom of the stairs.... GREER: .....I boarded USAF Plane #26000 and returned to Andrews AFB, Wash. D.C. From Andrews AFB, I drove the U.S. Navy ambulance with the President's Body, accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General to the U.S. Naval Medical Center. I assisted Mr. Kellerman while the autopsy was being performed and then drove the ambulance with the President's body to the White House and I walked around him and I wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up. Senator COOPER. The President? Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in that man's face. (you've SEEN the anterior xray, right Pat... where the bone is gone on the right side down to his cheek and back to his ear?) ....Mrs. Kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert Kennedy and General McHugh. In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities. Kellerman's Report: While airborne, arrangements were made for a Naval ambulance from the New Naval Medical Center at Bethesda to be available at the airport. Upon landing we removed the casket, placed it into the ambulance. At the airport, Chief Rowley advised me that two FBI agents, Francis O'Neill, Jr., and James Siebert, had been assigned to this case and to allow them into the morgue at the U.S. Naval Hospital. I told Chief Rowley the cars would arrive at Andrews at about 8 p.m., and suggested he assign field agents to them to completely go over them for any evidence that might be found. Mrs. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and General McHugh sat in the rear of the ambulance- SAs Greer, Landis and myself with Dr. Burkley rode in the front to Bethesda, with a police escort. The body was immediately taken to the morgue and the family was assigned rooms in the Towers of the Center. Hill and Landis remained with Mrs. Kennedy in her quarters and William Greer and I remained in the morgue and viewed the autopsy examinations which were performed by Vice Admiral Gallway, Commanding Officer, NNMC, Chief Pathologist Cdr. James Humes, Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck who is Chief, Military Environmental Pathology Division and Chief of Wound Ballistics, Pathology Branch, and J. Thornton Boswell, Cdr. Medical Corps, USN, together with the Naval Medical Staff. SA O'Leary was also in the morgue briefly. Agents O'Neill and Siebert were present. O'NEILL: A: Every single moment. Every single moment. There was no possibility that the vehicle stopped-or the ambulance stopped; that anybody took a casket out, switched any bodies, as some ”authors”- because they’re not authors-some people have said. No way at all. Nothing. So, now we’re out at Andrews- excuse me. We’re out at Bethesda Naval Station. We come in through the main gate. Now we have naval personnel on either sides. Now we have other individuals. there are people watching it, looking at it. The ambulance moved in front. Mrs. - Q: The front of the hospital? A: The front of the hospital. Now, bear in mind, I’m familiar with the hospital there, and so is Jim, because we our physical examinations there every year. So, we were familiar with a good portion of the hospital itself. Mrs. Kennedy got out. Bobby Kennedy got out. And people from the - from the hospital itself - I believe that Admiral Holloway (sic) chatted and talked. In the first car, which was in front of us, was Larry O’Brien and Kenny O’Donnell, Godfrey McHugh-General McHugh was the - I think, maybe Admiral Burkley or somebody. But there was a group of people there. After some small talk, evidently, in in front, Kellerman went into the hospital. Bobby Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and probably Burkley, went in and went up to either the 17th or 19th floor. And now WC have Larry O’Brien and Kenny O’Donnell and McHugh chatting in front of the Place. They were there for a period of time. And Jim and I are looking at each other - Oh, Pamela Turnure, by the way, got out, too. She went with Mrs. Kennedy. The valet went in also, I guess. There was a period of time nothing happened. Jim and I looked at each other, and we decided to find out what the story was. We went up to Larry O’Brien and said, “What’s the delay?” And as best I recall, he said, ‘Well, they don’t know”- Greer was the driver of the ambulance – “where the autopsy room is” Q: Did you see-other than the Navy gray ambulance that the casket was in, did you see any other ambulances out at Bethesda? A: Not- well, there were other ambulance’s there. But I-but not, to the best of my recollection, that any took off, or any had the body in it, or anything like that. Q: Did you see any hearses at Andrews-I’m sorry. A: Hearse? No. Q: At Bethesda? A: No, sir. Q: okay. We can continue with his ARRB testimony if you like... but the information you pass off as FACT is severely wanting in every aspect... Jackie did NOT walk from the morgue to the front, Lipsey does not say this - in fact not a soul does... your INFERENCES notwithstanding... can you please stick to presenting FACTS with SOURCES... and not what you THINK Lipsey means.... So far every piece of evidence I have posted has been corroborated by numerous sources... you going to address my questions or does your shell game continue? DJ

Bill - I have to say how much I am enjoying your book... Is there any chance you did an organizational chart to illustrate all these connections? There is a portion of one for the Mexico City station, yet as I did with Armstrong's H&L, I may have to try to graphically represent these relationships using a Visio type program, or a data base type of set-up. Not having the connections easily visualized takes something from my understanding of the whole... I too spend time just diving into the MFF docs to see what turns up - that's how I found WCD298... I remain a firm believer that HARVEY Oswald was not in Mexico in late Sept... yet LEE may have... What I appreciate the most in your book is how you spell out the counter and counter-counter activities each of the intelligence agencies has to engage in to "watch their own backs" - that OSWALD on these tapes was a ruse by the Cubans or others to find out more about the USA operations is something I know I forget to include in my thinking... I do have a question... How long before the actual assassination - given Tampa and Chicago operations - do YOU believe the Dallas scenario was set up and was Oswald always the Dallas patsy?

Humes claims he sees the body at 6:45-7pm... so again Scott... who was in the casket Greer, Kellerman, O'Neil and Sibert bring in if Humes is already with the body? At 7:17, the casket is brought in... where does the MDW get its casket if its already in the morgue while JFK was already there having xrays taken? Scott... do you not get the situation with O'Connor? He was there prior to 7pm... he was asked to leave between 7-8pm for the "pre-autopsy xrays" and "examination" That's why the stories seem to overlap... btw - you may wish to look a bit more deeply into the FBI's location and "seeing" the body come out of the casket between 7:17 and 8pm... you might be quite surprised how much CYA was done so Hoover didn't find out where they really were for most of the pre 8pm time period... these FBI men do finally admit they too were removed from the ante-room before the casket was opened, and NOT allowed into the morgue prior to 8pm... and there is quite a bit more than "eyewitness accounts" - you're on the right track at least... and maybe when you review ALL of the testimony and correlate it... you will see that the surgeon general of the navy and the commander of Bethesda were in on the movement and alteration of JFK from the moment he arrived.... How again does Humes see a body in the morgue, xrays are taken and processed, all while the FBI/SS brings in the ambulance casket at 6:17 and the MDW does the entire thing again at 8pm? Can you connect the dots for us and show us there was nothing happening to JFK's body at the time.. you know - chain of possession of the BEST EVIDENCE... the body, tells alot about the autopsy and and those involved in the movement of said body... You are of the opinion that if ROSE did the autopsy in Dallas, the autopsy medical record would be the same as what we got from Bethesda?

don't get dizzy with all that spin... Going on the offensive? ... let's see, who else was tasked with going after the Dallas recollections Your apologies and alignments are clear.

Thanks B.A... here and elsewhere. your posts have inspired many hours research and have helped me see clearly in so many directions... Something I'd like to offer now... the right temple bullet hole on the anterior xray... I did not retouch anything other than the reversal image... if not a bullet hole... it certainly appears darker than dark and not "part" of the original xray - thoughts? instead we're given the Ebersole 6.5mm tape job... have you read his story about the bust to be made and the need for measurements?... his HSCA discussion I think... before you pass any judgement READ the entire testimony of everyone who was there that you can find... not the reports about what they said... unless you check them against what they actually said... ARRB changed everything.... and to think that what the HSCA hid that Bill found in State Secret is mind blowing... The HSCA Segregated CIA files at MFF... as devious as man's mind may be... and as serious a matter it was... your average man, IMO, does not incriminate his perceived "superiors" either on government or military or profession... we defer to authority. think of the story these people have to tell in order to be any more interesting to history than they already were... and how ignored they were by the first 30 years of our government's so-called investigations... an innocent government does not do that... V.S.'s words ringing true. Maybe they used the same thing on the xray as they did on the photo?

Yeah Pat... and people believed Saddam was behind 9/11 too... cause that's what they were repeatedly told until it was assumed true... That they bought yellow cake from Niger... another lie Colin Powell stood up and told these lies to the UN...(I realize that's not the Wecht conference but,y'know what I mean) doesn't make them the truth... it is the prima facia evidence of the conspiracy to invade Iraq without real cause or reason other than to free up access to the oil reserves.. READ the Iraqi Oil Act, and the events leading to it to learn the real reason for the Bush ad campaign to convince you otherwise... $50 TRILLION in oil profit in the ground... and BP is at the top of the list. ...... without the presentation of FRAUDULENT EVIDENCE like the autopsy films, photos, and report... what perpetrates the cover-up? Testimony? The autopsy evidence IS the permanent record... and this evidence does NOT suggest multiple shooters - only one from behind... but a very specific act of treason... bring that up with Cyril next time... you're the one bringing up the missed shot from the front ala the HSCA... and the only reason you do this is because you actually believe this evidence to be true... and you set the case back 45 years every time you do so. ====== I have not said a word about Oswald or any theories... you want readers to believe the Autopsy evidence is indicative of the wound from Dallas... that's ALL we are talking about... so use the evidence to prove your point... I never said it was FAKE - you keep telling me so, but I never said that in the way you mean... use the terminology I use please... I said it was CREATED TO REMOVE SIGNS OF A SHOT FROM THE FRONT... that it was altered and added to... that is taken at a time AFTER Humes altered their appearance.. other than the lateral xray which puts bone of the wrong density in a place that was devoid of bone... I know of no other "fakes", only a permanent record of a fraudulent set-up. (note: your AUTHENTIC autopsy evidence states: Skeletal System - Aside from the above described skull wounds there are no significant gross skeletal abnormalities. Pat... from this one sentence alone we can raise serious issues as the either 1) was it JFK on the table, or 2) how unbelievably inept and dishonest the rest of the autopsy was... Everyone knew the PT story of their President... EVERYONE. Have you SEEN his back xrays? This is on the same par as the 1500cc brain... another piece of AUTOPSY EVIDENCE you are willing to claim is true? The same evidence which builds your case, destroys it, over and over... The fact that is was CREATED to support only shots from behind is one of the pillars of the conspiracy Pat... what planet are you on? The evidence itself PROVES what was done to remove all evidence of a frontal shot... Why else does Elmer Todd hound Perry? I wrote: Here, use this to illustrate how the 2-3 inch right rear wound seen and described by virtually everyone in Dallas, is accurately represented by the autopsy evidence: Why can't you do a single honest thing here and use some of the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE to prove your point.... about the autopsy evidence instead of everything but... ?? why do you keep bringing up what was said and drawn in Dallas as being suspect... while you accept hook-line-and-sinker the evidence from Bethesda...? Why notmentiopn the Admirals saying... DO NOT TOUCH THAT, DO NOT PROBE THAT, DO NOT CUT THAT.. and yet believe the results are authentic? and finally... back to you avoiding even an attempt to deal with the subject matter - the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE.. Boswell's drawing constitutes autopsy evidence, does it not? why is there not a single soul holding the TOP of their heads in the photos Pat... Why do you not focus on your subject matter... ADDRESS THE EVIDENCE and what it says occurred... it says the base of the skull and top of the spinal cord were cleanly cut completely thru disconnecting JFK's brain from the rest of the body (#4) It also says that it affected the mid brain at the third ventricle (#3) it also says there was a 2.5cm x 4.5cm x occipit to eye socket TROUGH running the entire right side of the skull as we see in the frontal xray... (#1) I draw you pretty pictures and show you... yet the one thing in all of these threads and posts you have yet to do is address the evidence you are calling authentic and indicative... Last but not least, again... the fragment line... the ONLY significant fragments in the xrays... travel from the right front temple to the middle occipital... there is no hole to the rear of said trail... yet there is a hole to the front of said trail... (the 2nd image from previous post above) Tell us how a fragment trail is created extending from the rear when there injury as YOU describe was an in and out only on the right top of the man's skull... You can download my graphics and mark right on them yourself Pat, I know you know how... That xray at the top of my previous post showing how absurd your presentation of fact as fiction really is... Don't talk about what he said or she said... tell us how THAT PIECE OF AUTOPSY EVIDENCE supports an exit from anywhere but the front.. How the Autopsy report itself does the same... No sir... I am asking why we see bone in the lateral at the right rear - low to high... while that same bone is not there in the anterior... there is no bone to the right rear... it is GONE. See how there is bone in the anterior on JFK's LEFT is running all the way from front to back? the density of the margins and the depth of the skull... What conspiracy are YOU suggesting... none of the shots hit from the front, is your MAIN conclusion... and yet that was the key aspect of the shooting... a kill shot from the right front... and you stand there and deny it... yet that is NOT fostering information that hides the true nature of the conspiracy to cover-up... You actually and honestly believe that a bullet wound could dislodge a person's entire brain... even though one entire side was relatively untouched... you didn't address that either at Wecht I bet... Everyone else understands this it seems... Brains do not FALL OUT Pat... that's not how the body works... for the last time.. explain how any number of bullets (which if you say happened would also prove the Zfilm and others to be altered) enters the skull and completely recreates the necessary incisions to accomplish a clean craniotomy... here yet again is anatomical representation of the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE you call authentic and indicative of multiple shooters ergo conspiracy... as opposed to multiple shooters, one from the front, (as the original intent was to suggest a Cuban/Russian conspiracy and unleash the dogs of war) and the wholesale destruction of evidence of said frontal shot sufficient to get the WCR published and the cover-up initiated. Please oh please... just this once address this procedure and how the bullets performed it... Brains don't fall out... Skull does not self detach from scalp... Address this with some honesty Pat...using what you have as autopsy evidence... show us how this was accomplished: Start with Brain removal #1 and #2... and then look at what Boswell wrote about the "Superior longitudinal sinus" the "sagital (sic) sinus" Sorry Pat, one need not be a brain surgeon to smell rotten fish... The steps to remove the brain are almost an exact recreation of the condition of the body as described at the autopsy... prove otherwise.

If you read the records carefully you'll find that Robinson did not do the skull reconstruction, and that the man who did the skull reconstruction was never interviewed. This reconstruction was done in the Bethesda morgue, and not at the mortuary. So, yeah, plenty of people were watching... As I recall, moreover, Robinson noted but one small wound on the face, and felt certain that this was not an entrance wound, but perhaps a shrapnel wound or an exit of a fragment. A lot of nonsense has been spewed about Robinson. Those desperate to believe Kennedy's wounds were altered, cite Robinson as Exhibit 1A. in Horne's book, he unintentionally reveals the silliness of all this. He has Robinson see an orange-sized hole on the back of Kennedy's head, Humes expand this into a big hole, then the morticians reconstruct the head so that it once again has an orange-sized hole on the back of Kennedy's head, which is then observed by Robinson's co-worker, and photographed. These photographs are then developed by Saunda Spencer. This is as illogical as can be. 1. If they were gonna photograph an orange-sized hole on the back of the head, why not just take a photo of the orange-sized hole at the beginning of the autopsy? 2. Why assume the orange-sized hole observed by Robinson and the orange-sized hole observed by his co-worker were observed at different times? They came together. They worked together. They left together. They gave the same description for the wound. (It seems clear from this, moreover, that Horne was trying to avoid the obvious--that the orange-sized hole observed by Robinson was observed during reconstruction--when the morticians were trying to make Kennedy presentable for an open-casket funeral.) Anyhoo... Why Pat? Cause all of the Medical Evidence from the WCR was staged to support a shot from the rear exiting the front right of the skull... and putting one LHO in a place he never was. That you remain so tied to evidence that is so obviously NOT indicative of JFK's wounds in Dallas... and that you spread this "conclusion" to each and every thread you come to is simply unbelieveable... Ask Sandra Sepencer about an orange sized hole in JFK's head... or Robert Knudsen... or those in the room taking photos and xrays prior to 7pm.... Here, use this to illustrate how the 2-3 inch right rear wound seen and described by virtually everyone in Dallas, is accurately represented by the autopsy evidence: Explain to us how the drawings on the bottom from DALLAS are represented in the medical evidence : It was O'Connor who tells us they needed to fill his head with plaster of paris to keep it together for the embalming... One last thing Pat... there is obviously bone to the LEFT REAR on the anterior xray and RIGHT REAR on the lateral... why is there no bone behind the gaping absence of bone forward and on the right of the Frontal Bone suture? Your touting of the "official autopsy evidence" as authentic has to be one of the greatest ongoing presentations of organized disinformation seen since Cinque/Fetzer.... tried to prove methematically that they were correct about Doorman.... voodoo logic and a complete disregard for the actual evidence... When did you start believing the official evidence in this case Pat? - given not a single piece can be authenticated, while most of the medical evidence has already been discredited as being either altered, copied, or of a skull which had been badly smashed prior to the "official" images being taken... Sorry but I'm simply not going to let this lay... you're promoting a conclusion which enables the cover-up... and that just wont do. And finally... please point to the person holding his hand over the 19x10cm absence of skull at the top of the head (where surgery was performed), and then explain why there is a surgical cut thru the spinal cord at the base of the brain, given where the fragment trail is... a bullet in and ourt of the back of the head crushed the vomer as well as fracture the floor of the skull, while ALSO taking a 1" by 2.5" inch gouge running from occipital to eye socket out of the TOP of the skull AND curtting all the connections of the brain, skull and scalp on the LEFT SIDE of the head so the brain just falls into Humes' hands... Should be easy, right? I'll be waiting

Hi Kathy... Given the onion layers we have here... Isn't it just as likely that Ruby was made to kill Oswald for reasons having nothing to do with the assassination but with the fear of what else a "questioned and talking" courtroom Oswald may have exposed? Ruby spoke of "LBJ the Nazi", and to show how tough Jews were, etc... while being up to his eyeballs in running supplies to both sides of the Cuban situation. A third option remaines the Harvey and Lee phenomenon... and the desperate need to dispose of the patsy... (Hoover sends men to Stripling to confiscate records of LHO from 1955 on saturday 11/23 at 7am... LHO never went to Stripling... and the cheshire cat grins) Where do you get the idea that Baker was supposed to kill Oswald... or are you referring to someone else? Depending on who Oswald really was and what he was actually doing... and the same with Ruby*... I think "reasons" for most anything will remain elusive....

Hey there Mark... Let's see - civilians who work daily in an ER and are not under strict orders to do anything other than their job, have one set of descriptions of the man's injuries which match with the first two people who saw the wounds from a distance of 1 foot. while military personnel under orders of silence or else court martial are tasked with performing a proceedure they barely have any experience in and are told by up to three senior ranking officers what to do and NOT to do... also give us an "official autopsy" where the initial draft and notes are destroyed, while the only forensic autopsist's notes are "vanished" and the "official" record contradicts each and every other account taken prior to JFK getting put into the bronze casket. Nope, nothing to see here... everyone just move along...

LOL... as if we're talking about when we had dinner last night... good one Pat. After looking thru all the PRE-8pm evidence I posted, you still want to take the position that JFK was not in the morgue having xrays done prior to 7pm? That Humes is wrong about 6:45-7pm That the FBI/Ss agents did NOT bring in an empty casket at 7:17 That the xray techs carrying the films up for developing as the ambulance arrives did NOT see Jackie and Bobby enter while the casket lay in the ambulance That Dennis David and a team of men did NOT carry in a metal shipping casket from a black hearse That HUMES did not call FINCK who arrived at 8:30 to a set of xrays that would take much longer than 15-20 minutes to take and develop, if they had started at 8pm That Lipsey - giving away the "decoy" plan - mistakenly forgets to account fro getting the body out of the first casket and into the other. Let's start with two simple questions then Pat... when did the ambulance arrive at the front of Bethesda in relation to when the autopsy started? and the second... Why is there such a huge conflict in the times of arrival? From Boyijean, to Dennis David, to the xray tech, to the SS/FBI movement of the casket, to the MDW's report... none of them jive... the MDW report - from Bird - http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=694&relPageId=1 states some very interesting info: 1) It either claims to have moved JFK from AF-1 to the ambulance at 6:10 or 7:10 based on how you read it... yet the movement from the ambulance to the morgue occurs at 2000 (8pm) 2) It states that there were two helicopters flown from Andrews related to the MDW, one with Wehle and one with a second casket team, both landing at Bethesda... page 3, section 1 paragraph H... and 3) in Section 2 paragraph A. it says that the helicopters arrived at 6:45 and immediately thereafter the ambulance arrived at the hospital, except while Galloway is talking to McHugh there is considerable confusion as to where the body would be taken (as if that was a trick question?) but the FIRST Joint team finally does find both the ambulance and casket... and records an 8pm entry... ------------------------ This sure makes it appear that EXACT TIME was recorded... somewhere... in a report of something or is he just pulling this out of his ..... ?? Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane? Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14. Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities? Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies. Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m. Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas? Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48. Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the Washington area? Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir? Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to. Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report. Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4 1/2, 5 hours. Then there is the testimony of FBI agent Sibert in MD153 which confirms the arrival and "immediate" loading times.... Are you actually going to take the position that the time Kellerman, Greer and the FBI brings the casket in and what the MDW did are not mutually exclusive? Are you also going to try and convince us that the navy ambulance sits out front for an hour before the MDW finally meets up with it at the back and carries the casket into the morgue? Or are these two facts that every schoolboy should know at this point? And what of Lipsey's statement? which in turn has to mean that the body which entered the plane in the Parkland casket, was somehow changed... which also jives with the 2 Joint Casket teams arriving at Bethesda prior to 7pm. Lipsey's statement: The hearse carrying Kennedy’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital’s rear entrance, a loading dock. Lipsey and Wehle had hopped from Air Force One to the hospital in a helicopter. A “decoy” hearse, accompanied by Jacqueline Kennedy and presidential aides, had arrived at the front of the hospital a few minutes earlier. As expected, it drew a mob of awaiting reporters, photographers and onlookers. Here is the After Action Report of the MDW... pages 2 and 6 are of particular interest as it tells of the SS interference with the casket, the time of arrival, and how only the path from the helipad to the morgue was "guarded" as the instruction to the MDW was that JFK was arriving via helicopter. http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx and finally the WCR itself contradicts the "official" report.... based on Humes' own testimony... The WCR: The hospital received the President's body for autopsy at approximately 7:35 p.m. (277) http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-2.html#return 277: 2 H 349 (Comdr. James J. Humes). http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-18.html#chapter2 Except HUMES tells us earlier and earlier as the years pass.... While I can understand there being some discrepency in times recorded... why do you suppose so much of it includes arrival times well before the "official" 8pm unveiling of the skull that falls apart in Humes' hands?

Yes Pat... authentic images of an altered subject...exactly as Horne describes it. A subject altered in such a way as to make it impossible to conclude a shot was fired from the front and exited the back... and you are somewhat off base with regards to what the xrays and those who have interpreted them, say. There is BONE PRESENT posterior to the Frontal suture line on the right side of the skull in the lateral xray - yes or no? There is NO BONE PRESENT anterior of this Frontal Suture line on the right side of the skull - yes or no? There is NO BRAIN PRESENT on either the front right or left sides of the lateral xray - yes or no? The Autopsy Evidence states that the left side of the skull and brain were completely intact - yes or no? YOU believe that when he unwrapped the head at 8pm, the processes which separate the dura from the skull and the skull from the brain had been so thoroughly damaged ON BOTH SIDES that this 1500cc brain just "fell out" - yes or no? YOU believe that this was the condition of JFK as seen, reported, and testified to in Dallas With regards to Ebersole... maybe read what his peers and subordinates said about him at the ARRB? or what he tells us HE DID in his testimony? Ebersole: "Upon removing the body from the coffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregular ecumonic area above the super ecolobular ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck" Pat, NONE of these words make any sense, "ecumonic" is not a real word and neither is "ecolobular" - meanwhile JFK's LIPS ARE SUTURED SHUT !! ?? Dr. BADEN. These three films in particular, were they all taken before the autopsy was begun? Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. The skull films were definitely taken before the autopsy. Dr. BADEN. Did you repeat the skull films? Dr. EBERSOLE. To my knowledge. So PAT... where be the 2nd set of head xrays? Ebersole was a tool. Pat... what was the title of this thread? "Did the autopsy doctors think the fatal bullet exited the back of the head?" and then you go on to claim that since F8 is incorrectly positioned, they really claimed it came out the back of the head... or the Clark Panel does, NOT the autopsy Doctors... What again are you REALLY trying to prove here Pat? It appears to be that you want to conclude that the Autopsy Evidence accurately reflects the damage done in Dallas... Although you simply cannot deal with what happens between 6:40 and 8pm... your avoidance of that time period is, well, overly obvious. How can xrays be taken of JFK in the morgue prior to 8pm, or how can HUMES see the body at 6:45... if he was in the ambulance out front? Grow a pair and answer the question... ============ Scott... instead of assuming what I think... ANSWER THE QUESTION that I pose above to Pat... 8pm is the official start of the autopsy, the time the MDW carries the casket into the morgue... Do I really need to post that document too? Humes, along with a number of other witnesses encounter JFK in the morgue prior to 7pm, PRIOR to the time the ambulance arrives from Andrews... Whether SOME ALTERATION occurred on AF-1... IDK. the throat wound appears to have been enlarged on route... but the critical question remains If JFK was NOT in the ambulance in the casket that arrives out front at 6:55... and HUMES basically confirms it.... How did he get from the Parkland Casket to the shipping casket and then to Bethesda ahead of the ambulance? Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy? A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately Q: And who helped lift the casket out of the ambulance? (Sibert)A: Of course, I’ve read something about casket teams but I don’t have any recollection of any casket teams on the scene at that time. I recall there was Kellerman and Greer - who was the driver - O’Neill and myself…. (7:17 entry) What are the two of you trying to hide about that time period? Or do you simply have no way to save yourselves from the obvious ?

Each one of these people sees JFK prior to 8pm... And no Scott.. we are talking about the Bethesda Autopsy Medical evidence which Mr Speer believes is the condition of the head in Dallas... The xrays, photos, autopsy report and its supplemental IS the evidence whic contradicts everyone who sees JFK prior to 8pm... EVERYONE. We see once again you simply cannot address the 6:40-8pm timeframe and how the drawings/witnesses of a 2-3 inch hole in the back of his head becomes the ENTIRE SKULL MISSING from the occipital to the Frontal bone fron the Midline down to the ear... Please point out any AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that describes a 2-3 inch hole in the right area of the occipital... what they SAID and what the Autopsy Evidence became - are, as I've been stating all along, NOT the same. and THAT is the point seemingly lost on you and Pat... THE AUTOPSY DOCTORS DID NOT THINK ANYTHING EXITED THE BACK OF THE HEAD, THE AUTOPSY DOCTORS ENLARGED A 2-3 INCH OCCIPITAL WOUND INTO WHAT WE SEE YET CONFLICTS ON THE XRAYS... For those of use who appreciate evidence presented in its original form with illustration to help explain them... I offer the following AUTOPSY EVIDENCE from the MOUTHS OF THE AUTOPSY DOCTORS THEMSELVES... covering the period from WCR thru ARRB - Look again at the title of this thread... Has the argument been made that they DID think the bullet exited the BACK of the head or not? - Commander HUMES - No, sir; I am speaking here of the wound in the occiput. The wound on the inner table, - This wound was situated approximately 2.5 centimeters to the right, and slightly above the external occiptal protuberance - These had disclosed to us multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye (These are those fragments that extend to the TOP of the occipital, where these is no entry wound, to just above the right eye... what a surprise.) - Commander HUMES - Our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which I have previously referred to. That one portion of the missile and judging by the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, made its exit through this large defect. - You will note that the wound in the posterior portion of the occiput on Exhibit 388 is somewhat longer than the other missile wound which we have not yet discussed in the low neck Colonel FINCK - Letter B.(by the arrow leaving the top of the head) We will see portions of bone in this general area, the large wound in the bone on the right side of the skull of President Kennedy. I had enough curvature to identify outside of the skull, and inside of the skull, as the first step to orient the specimen, and then I could determine the location of the beveling, and I could therefore say that B, Commission Exhibit 388, is a wound of exit. (btw - Finck does not use the word OCCIPTIAL in his WCR testimony at all) HSCA Dr. FINCK. Well, I would say that this was the wound of entry to the right of the external occipital protuberance Dr. PETTY. No, that is not quite what I asked. Can you tell where the penetrating gunshot wound went? I am not asking for entrance or exit but the course. Dr. FINCK. The track. I cannot identify a track. (The Forensic Autopsist cannot tell us the track of the missle which supposedly entered the right rear and exited the top of the head... but he/they can tell us that's what it did... right!) *Dr. FINCK. To a much lesser extent. When it comes to interpretation of radiographs I always consult the radiologists. Dr. BADEN. Was there a radiologist present? Dr. FINCK. Dr. Ebersole. Dr. BADEN. Did you consult with Dr. Ebersole about that Dr. FINCK. Dr. Ebersole interpreted the radiographs as far as I remember. He came to the autopsy room (So this witness - Ebersole - is able to look at the lateral xray and claim he sees a massive occipital wound ??? Right!) Dr. FINCK. Again I think that there were only two wound tracks, one in the back and one exit, and the front of the throat that is wound track number one and the second wound track was an entry in the back of the head with a large exit on the top and right side of the head. (Hey wait - didn't FINCK say there was no identifiable track?... yup, right here) Dr. FINCK. The track. I cannot identify a track. CLAY SHAW TRIAL: Q: Doctor, as a result of your examination of the head, the head of the late President, what, if you have one, is your opinion as to the direction from which the bullet which inflicted the head wound came? A: The bullet definitely struck in the back of the head, disintegrated, which is often the case when such a bullet at high velocity goes through bone, producing numerous fragments, many of them seen on X-ray of the head, and of the bony portion of the exit, and also recovered by us, we found fragments in the brain of the President, and that projectile produced that wound of exit on the right side and top of the head. If you take the middle of this wound of exit, the general direction of this missile path, p-a-t-h, is from the rear to the front going downward (CE388 (AUTOPSY "evidence" and reality) Mr. SPECTER - And specifically, as to the points of entry and points of exit which have been testified to by Doctor Humes, do his views express yours as well? Commander BOSWELL - They do, yes. Boswell ARRB: Q. When you refer to the teardrop, you're referring to the fifth view described as the "wound of entrance in right posterior occipital region." A. Right, yes. HSCA: where it was, above the external occipital protuberance; therefore, I believe that is the wound of entry Let me ask you first, your autopsy report reflected that there was one and only one bullet wound to the back of the President s head, that it did enter in the rear, exited the front. Is that report accurate on those three points, to the best of your knowledge? Dr. HUMES. Absolutely. HUMES - ARRB: Q. Okay. Just for any scalp lacerations, were there any tears over the occipital bone? A. No. No. Q. None whatsoever? A. No. Q. There were tears, however, over the temporal-- A. Temporal and parietal. Q. And the parietal. A. Yes. "We found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm. The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex" The area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere. The margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration. In addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain. When viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. There was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. We note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution. Those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description. When the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies. This laceration partially communicates with an oblique 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.

Scott... you have way too many questions in your que before I start to address yours.... Deal with Besthesda between 6:40 and 8pm first.... Reconcile O'Connor's 8pm with HUMES' 6:45 first With regards to what I believe about the medical evidence - if you haven't been able to figure it out by now with everything I've posted, I can't help you. Stop avoiding the issue - for the Bethesda evidence to be accurate, nothing had to have happened to JFK's head from Dallas to xrays... Please, and once again, post an image or description of the man's head by ANYONE prior to 8pm - that supports or authenticates the medical evidence offered from the autopsy... Changing the subject with each and every post only undermines your credibility here Scott... Pat's in the same boat... Until you address ALL the ARRB evidence related to Bethesda - you'renot really doing anything but being argumentative.... I posted a very detailed image showing DALLAS versus BETHESDA... repeatedly ignoring the questions in favor of asking your own is a TACTIC Scott... a tactic for ongoing posting with nothing to add, nothing to offer and nothing to rebut. And it's gotten old. Between you and Pat, you'll post everything and anything but the evidence requested - since you don't have any to support the autopsy as an accurate description of JFK's Dallas wounds.. With that said... you and Pat can play these games all you want... you want to believe in Bethesda's honesty... believe. I've posted my say and it speaks for itself. It also fills in for the silence the both of you offer in defense of your "conclusions" Peace out buddy... I'm done with this conversation DJ

The larger wound dimensions described at Bethedsa can be easily explained by the fact that the hole in the skull was much larger than the hole in the scalp. As for the original wound, the morticians described an area of missing scalp in the back of the head approximately 3 inches across. Now it sounds like you're just guessing Scott.... if that was the fact, the autopsy evidence would show a LARGE HOLE in the right rear of the head... it does not... the LARGE OPENING is now extending from the occipial to and thru the FRONTAL BONE... (c'mon here Scott... LOOK at the graphic below, the drawings from Parkland and the xrays which followed... Bell, Crenshaw, McClellend, Sibert, Robinson, even Boswell's initial drawing does not show the entire right side of his skull gone...) Meanwhile the evidence Pat Speer uses does not show anything near a 3, 4 or even 6 inch hole across the back of his head... Pat Speer is telling us the shot came from behind and exited the top right taking with it the entire right portion of the FRONTAL BONE... if there was not bone there Scott... what was holding up his face in the anterior xray?? Why does not a single soul say a single word about the FRONT of his head other than "From the front, nothing".... Scott, if you want to coinvince anyone, how about bringing something to the evidentiary table and support it - kinda simple if you are in the right and have the backing, no? As I asked Pat... maybe you can point to anyone anywhere who drew us a pre 8pm picture of JFK's wounds that looks anything at all like the evidence below.... neither of you seem to be able to do so, nor can you address the 6:40 thru 8pm time period with any sense of reality. For us all, once and for all, explain how xrays of JFK are taken while the ambulance from Andrews is pulling up, while Jackie and Bobby are coming inside, BEFORE the SS/FBI teams bring in THAT casket at 7:17... Can you fashion a post that addresses these key issues or as we are seeing over and over, you and Pat simply avoid what you can't explain...?

Because ACCURACY and JFK AUTOPSY are not even allowed in the same sentence let alone to be offered as a conclusion. Once again Pat... 6:40pm thru 8pm at the Bethesda morgue... xrays of JFK taken while the ambulance sits outside... FBI/SS carry in a casket at 7:17... MDW carries in a casket at 8pm... Humes is working with the body - according to HIS WORD - from about 6:45 pm until 5 am.... You have yet to do a single thing to authenticate any single piece of Bethesda medical evidence other tho declare it correct and evidence worth "deferring" to... YOU want us to use two of the most fraudulent xrays ever created as definitive evidence for the injuries sustained... You DON'T take the time to follow the autopsy data and see what that actually means on a skull and brain.... but I did that for you Pat... and you STILL haven't the "???" to address it... Like the Bethesda alteration timeline, you simply ignore it and talk about statements people made later.... Show us how this medical evidence is "accurate" and reflective of the testimony you keep copying and pasting... Are you claiming that there are people - ANYWHERE - who drew us a picture that comes anywhere close to JFK's autopsy evidence of a missing Frontal Bone and a wedge removed from his head from front to back? Of course there's Boswell's drawing - yet another disconnect for you and your analysis... another item to ignore... So Pat... point to the location on the back of the skull where the bullet goes in and leave a particle trail where we see it... do you notice the fragment mapping that is posted in the upper right corner of my graphic? and the obviously forged 6.5mm round ?? at the back of the skull... which is not seen anywhere else or corroborated by anyone else, save Ebersole... I assume you know his story... WHERE IS THE HSCA PANEL's entry wound and WHY is there bone in the right rear of the lateral yet is gone in the anterior??? THIS is the evidence you continue to base your work upon... and most every professional who has had the opportunity to honestly evaluate this evidence has shown you what a complete crock of sh!t is it.... But you keep believing it's authentic and indicative of the Dallas injuries.... and you keep selling it to anyone who'll listen and believe... the rest of us know better... and will continue to ask that you back you work up with more than he said she said... WHO, prior to 8pm agrees with the medical evidence which - as if you didn't know - supports the SBT of events... another impossibility... or are you going to now defend that as being possible?

Do you mean the shipping casket O'Connor said "came in at eight o'clock on the dot" buddy? Are you suggesting that the hole seen in Parkland wasn't there after 8:00? Scott, if you're going to be cute and witty, post what was written, or what he actually said with a link to the source - as opposed to your paraphasing... k, buddy? MD64: O'Connor said that the casket was a pink shipping casket and it arrived approximately eight o'clock http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=389587 So how accurate is that statement Scott? Given all the other testimony we have about that time period... is it not possible the HSCA written paraphrased time is not right? If you have the source for his exact quote as you posted... please post the link... I simply posted the quote from his HSCA recap written by Jim Kelley and Andy Purdy thanks. In the meantime, if the casket with JFK in it did not arrive until "8:00 on the dot"... how is this testimony possible - and getting earlier and earlier with each investigation? (let alone all the other evidence regarding the pre-8pm time frame WCR Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening HSCA Dr. HUMES. well, the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35 the evening ARRB Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy? A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately. What I am saying - outright without suggestion whatsoever... is that the 2-3 inch hole in the right rear of JFK's head as seen in Dallas was enlarged to cover the entire right side of the head from back to front... and in the process the original wound was obliterated, the brain showing the path of the bullet - obliterated, and that the skull/scalp/brain injuries described as obvious and evidence to those in the morgue after 8pm - and recorded in the autopsy - were ALL created by HUMES to make it impossible to determine what actually happened. I post this graphic yet again in hopes you can see that it shows the complete difference between those in Dallas and those in DC prior to 8pm... Boswell's drawing comes AFTER HUMES performs "surgery to the top of the head".... and as we can see - not a single person who sees JFK prior to 8pm says a different thing... while all those after 8pm and after the damage is done, describes a thoroughly enlarged and completely changed injury

I know where the info is Scott - YOU are making the point that Bethesda personnel told us about a hole in the right rear - I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45. YOU can start with those names and YOU can post the evidence to back YOUr posts... not going to do your work as well as mine buddy... Regarding Lifton... there is a very specific area of the book that goes into detail about the processes and the location of "extended tears" in the scalp... If DSL is around and reading this he can surely point you to the exact pages/sections... but you need to READ it Scott... not everything can be summed up with illustrations... I then went ahead and found and posted the procedures related to that part of the autopsy... to help illustrate the situation for you... I still have the same questions you seem to avoid - 1) what occurred between 6:40 and 8pm at the Bethesda morgue? 2) If xrays of JFK are being developed - who do Sibert/O'Neill/Greer and Kellerman bring into the ante-room at 7:17... ?? After Galloway delays McHugh at the front of the Hospital... 3) what is the MDW dooing at 8pm with a casket? Addressing these questions will go a long way in our understanding your POV here Scott.... either you get it or you deny it... and if you deny it - an explanation is in order... Thanks DJ

Once again we have Mr Speer contradicting himself in his own posts…. He will describe numerous people telling us where he was HIT, yet none of the people are telling us what the result of these FRONTAL HITS was… until we get to Hill and Jackie… and Parkland What is Mr Speer trying to prove here I wonder? That ALL the witnesses in Dallas who drew a hole at the right rear of JFK’s head were WRONG… and that the fraudulent medical evidence in the record created at Bethesda is accurate… a TRUE representation of the wounds – as if NOTHING TOUCHED JFKs HEAD between Dallas and those images – Me Speer continues to insult the intelligence of anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes reviewing the medical evidence and looking at an anatomical image of the head… Why is proving nothing happened at Bethesda to change the nature of the injuries so critical for Mr Speer at this point? Do pages and pages of analysis and conclusion wind up just being a wonderful presentation of a fraud leading him down paths with no basis in reality? If the medical evidence Pat basis all of his conclusions upon were created by HUMES and not by a second or third bullet… what becomes of these well thought out conclusions? Has Mr Speer addressed 6:40 thru 8pm and all the testimony and activity that undermines his never changing wound assumptions? Not once other than to dismiss it since it completely destroys these other conclusions… So here is a recap of all the evidence he posted showing the MYTH of a rear blow-out in the earliest testimony/statements… compared and contrasted to: Dr. William Kemp Clark, who had examined the President's head wound and pronounced him dead: "I was called by Dr. Perry because the President... had sustained a brain wound…It was apparent that the President had sustained a lethal wound. A missile had gone in or out of the back of his head, causing extensive lacerations and loss of brain tissue." (When asked to describe the course of the bullet through the head) "We were too busy to be absolutely sure of the track, but the back of his head...Principally on his right side, towards the right side...The head wound could have been either the exit wound from the neck or it could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue." It is my understanding that it entered in the temple, the right temple A missile had gone in or out of the back of his head, causing extensive lacerations and loss of brain tissue." The wound at the back of the head, while the principal one, was either an exit or tangential entrance wound the back of the head wound as: "A large gaping wound with considerable loss of tissue." There was a large wound beginning in the right occiput attempt to control slow oozing from cerebral and cerebellar tissue via packs instituted A large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted, The occipito-parietal, which is a part of the back of the head, had a huge flap There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital), causing a great defect in the skull plate so that there was herniation and laceration of great areas of the brain, even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound (google cerebellum for location) On first observation of the remaining wounds the rt temporal and occipital bones were missing And that’s not the only indication McClelland failed to see a “blow-out” wound on the back of Kennedy’s head (as we note, his DRAWING is of course showing only damage to the FRONT LEFT of the skull – right Pat?) noticed a portion of the President's head on the right rear side was missing and here is everyone he preferred to leave out: Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what? Miss BOWRON - The back of his head. Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition? Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know. Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see? Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole. ….. Mr. SPECTER - And what action did you take at that time, if any? Miss BOWRON - I helped to lift his head and Mrs. Kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so I went around back to the cart and walked off with it. We ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us. Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him? Dr. AKIN - There was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about 1 to 1.5 cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when I saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. The back of the right occipital/parietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding PRICE EXHIBITs 2-35 – Parkland personnel reports: p2 Two wounds, one in t1he lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull were noted There was a large wound in the right occipito-parietal region, ACTIVITIES OF PAT HUTTON : Mr. Kennedy was bleeding profusely from a wound on the back of his head, and was lying there unresponsive. And finally the ARRB recap of the wounds as told back to the Parkland Doctors: The only MYTH here is that this presentation of the information allows anyone to conclude that “there is virtually nothing to support this” where "THIS" is a blow-out involving the occipital bone exposing the underlying cerebellum… presentation of contrary evidence to PAT’s conclusion on this thread has been carefully ignored… and yet again Mr Speer completely ignores the actual medical evidence he so proudly proclaims is authentic – which completely contradicts what ANYONE says about the injury prior to 8pm Friday night… This repeated re-threading of “proofs” which do not prove the intended result is again – amazing, given that it DISPROVES what Pat tries to show – that the Med evidence from Bethesda is AUTHENTIC… Do we now need to go person by person from the ARRB as well? When does DISINFORMATION regarding the medical evidence, presented as fact on this site get called out for what it is? Or am I completely wrong here? That the evidence in this thread SUPPORTS that there is no evidence of a rear blow-out based on these “early” observations? If I am – and Pat – you have an explanation for the 6:40-8pm timeframe – and/or why you defend the WCR Medical evidence - PLEASE POST IT… otherwise you are continuing to foster and promote a completely wrong and convoluted presentation of the medical evidence… better suited for the members of the “Lone Nut – aint it obvious” forums… when those of us here know better… much better than to accept your ONLY SHOTS FROM BEHIND arguments GUNN ARRB: At this point I just want to briefly refer to previous statements that had been made by you and the other doctors regarding the wound to President Kennedy's head. Going back to Dr. Carrico -- and again, this one is not present for you -- he said to the House Select Committee on Assassinations that there was a large wound in the right side of the head in the parieto-occipital area. One could see blood and brains, both cerebral and cerebrum fragments in that wound. Let me -- let me read this again. He said both cerebellum and cerebrum fragments in that wound. I stated that incorrectly. Later he said -- this -- still to the House Select Committee on Assassinations -- "The head wound was much larger wound than the neck wound. It was five by seven centimeters, something like that, two-and-a-half by three. inches, ragged , had blood and hair all around it, located in the part of the parieto-occipital region, and there was brain tissue showing through." The next testimony comes from Dr. Clark. This is MD 37. And in a summary that was typed up -- this is on Commission Exhibit 392 -- again, part of the package that I have given to you -- he refers to there was a wound, one in the lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull. And then on the second page Dr. Clark referred to "there was a large wound in the right occipitoparietal region" Then in his testimony to the Warren Commission he refers on page 20 to a large gaping wound in the right posterior part with cerebral -excuse me -cerebral & cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. On Page 29 he says that there was a much larger wound in the right occipital region of the President's skull from which consider -- considerable blood loss had occurred, which stained the back of his head, neck, and upper shoulders. Then to Dr. Jenkins he refers -- this is from packet MD 96. He refers to a great laceration on the right side of the head temporal and occipital. He also says the cerebellum had protruded from the wound. In his testimony to the Warren Commission he said that -- on Page 48 he thought that this wound in the head was a wound of exit, although he wasn't sure. He said, quote, "I really think part of the cerebellum, as I recognized it, was herniated from the wound." He then said that, "I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process." From Page 51 of his Warren Commission testimony he says, "Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought it was it a wound of exit." Finally in his testimony to the House Select Committee on Assassinations he said, There was one segment of bone blown out. It was a segment of occipital or temporal bone. He noted that a portion of the cerebellum, lower rear brain, was hanging out from the hole in the right rear of the head. Then Dr. Jones in his testimony to the Warren Commission -- this is Packet MD 98. On Page 53 he says there was a small wound at the midline of the neck and a large wound in the right posterior side of the head, a large -- later, there was a large defect in the back side of the head. And then in-- testimony to the Warren Commission on Page 56 he said that there appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull. And, Mr. Specter referred to that as the top of the President's head.

In my view of what you write, "earliest" meaning those who see JFK prior to the 8 pm casket entry and unveiling... O'Connor and Reed, Robinson, Ebersole, Humes & Boswell..etc... If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... The FBI memo from just after 9:18pm on 11/22 of a bullet still behind the POTUS' ear, and that the SS had secured the other bullet on its way from Dallas... - this was DURING the post 8pm autopsy... With regards to the scalp tear "extensions"... Lifton does an amazing job explaining those being in the exact spots that I posted in the autopsy illustration earlier... by 8pm the scalp did already appear as if a crude craniotomy had been performed to remove most of the remaining brain tissue. with Humes simply extending these lacerations and the skull just fell apart in his hands... (The separation of scalp from skull is one of the harder things to accomplish without precision... not knowing what the man looked like in Dallas facilitated hiding the truth... If one was to read the description of the condition of the head at autopsy, freshly unwrapped... - supposedly not a single thing had been done to the skull from the Parkland ER table to this point... nothing.. and those xrays were taken and those photos were taken.... while ARRB testimony illuminates that crowded little room... Looking again at the lateral xray I am hard pressed to 1) understand Hill's & Bowron's statements or 2) attempting life-saving procedures with no skull from the Frontal bone forward, from mid-line at least, to his cheek, and all the way back to the occipit.... as if a wedge was removed... and 3) dismiss "from the front, nothing" being uttered at the devastation... while the back of his head is open... Bethesda remains the line in the sand... the coup happened in that room under strict and direct order of 3 Navy Rear Admirals and a 4 star AF general. What left that hospital WAS the cover-up of the conspiracy to kill JFK and take over the reins of the USA - overtly and directly... .... Scott - some of the questions you ask about Bethesda are curious given your strong convictions and opinions... how can you dismiss what we've said about that time period when the reference for it comes ultimately from Humes... and then the xray techs developing the first set of film seeing Jackie in the lobby... corroborated reports, sightings, and evidence... Direct FBI testimony that at 7:17 HE and his partner brought JFK into the ante-room of the morgue... calls and timing for Finck to arrive and xrays to be ready.... Again... these "early" accounts - if after 8pm... can you show us what you mean?