David Josephs

Some of the most obvious signs the film is altered... FRAMES are missing from both of these sequences... The movemnt of both JFK's head at 157-158 and Greer at 203-303 are physically impossible in the single frame they occur.. Studies done on 302/303 suggest the limo had not moved at all... The break at 157 is 1.5 frames. Under that is Hickey reacting to "something" as they finish the turn... except he completely ignores THIS movement to his LEFT in favor of one to his right rear... He doesn't turn right until just before Altgens 6.... wonder what he was looking at around z150-z170 George W. Hickey, Jr. Special Agent, U.S.S.S. Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of SS-679-X on the left side. As IOO-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. Instead of telling us that you THINK the zfilm is original... PROVE IT. What is it that appears on the extent film that convinces you it is the camera original as opposed to an altered film exposed in Zaps camera and replaced. If one of the copies remained in 16mm format while the original was sent to DC Friday night in 8mm format... it's just a thought... we of course have no idea what actually happened. But to claim what we are shown in Z is what occurred that afternoon is to disregard mountains of conflicting evidence...

You said the film was made at the speed you specified "so that an alteration could be done quickly and easily to remove whatever may be objectionable," yet at the same time you believe that the film clearly shows a shooter from the right front. But isn't a shooter from the right from one of the most--if not the most--, "objectionable" things imaginable to the alleged film fakers? How could the alteration have been done "easily" if the presence of a shooter from this position was "obvious" (in your opinion) at the end? Another question. Why did McClelland --with all his alleged expertise on gunshot wounds-- have to wait for the Zapruder film to conclude that more than one shooter was involved, if the drawing commissioned Josiah Thompson's drawing of McClelland's wound description is correct? I mean, doesn't the drawing show a huge wound at the back of the head? And if we couple the drawing with the alleged small wound McClelland saw in the left temple (and if we assume he meant "right temple,") shouldn't that information alone be an obvious indication to him that at least 2 shooters were involved? Or did McClelland think (prior to watching the film) that the small entrance was an exit and the huge wound was an entry? At this point all I have is, REALLY? You can still post comments like that about the Zfilm... "since it was altered there MUST NOT be any evidence of a frontal shot"... do you even hear yourself? "the most objectionable thing" they did the best they could in the time allowed to do it... movement was removed, plates painted over... what we have left was hidden for 12 years BECAUSE they did such a bad job and knew it would spark controversy... but then, it was too late. I'd suggest going to any of the MANY threads on a variety of forums where I've had this conversation. Even HORNE talks about how 48fps during certain sequences would have aided... and how it was just a flip of the switch away... the end result copied and recopied would take years before it was found... when was the "original" finally analyzed Andric? and found to be totally and completely lacking of identification related to an "original"... --- I said that if filmed at 48fps during these scenes, altering the film would be MUCH easier than if taken at the camera's setting of 16. The frames removed add to the "back and left" movement by making it appear twice as fast as it was.... Holland, the footprints, bumper, cigarettes butts, Bowers, the other GK witnesses... are you at this point still claiming no frontal shot? And with regards to your other incredibly naive questions Andric... why would a Dr at Parkland who had seen what REALLY happened be scared to open his mouth? His report said it all and he was told to go away, he was wrong. First there is the context of the times... they were TOLD that they were WRONG, and here's the autopsy... no Zfilm for 12 years... stone walls, silence and death meet those who think 2 shooters out loud... Everything shown to these people contradicted what they saw... If there is a large hole in the right rear and you look inside, would you not be looking at the right cerebral hemisphere, if it was there? If the occipital is gone it would be easy to determine if the right or left brain was injured or MISSING... no? I'm finding what appears to be pseudo-amazement at this conversation and your comments as indicative of someone who has not looked into the situation at all... nor consider the context of the times. The US Government, military, informs you how wrong you were about your initial assessment,how it REALLY happened or at least how the story would go...in 1963. What do you expect these people to do if they KNEW it didn't go down like that... but are told otherwise with the power and force of the FBI and US military... You that brave Andric?

Earlier in the thread, Mr. Ward gave up on his Zapruder-alteration views upon learning that McClelland said that watching the Zapruder Film is what made him turn into a CT. Ward had to throw either his altertionist views or McClelland under the bus, and he chose the former. Do you still maintain that the film was both "quickly and easily" removed unwanted elements in order to bolster the lone-nutter theory, while at the same time convincing McClelland of the opposite? Ward Wrote: McClelland has since found himself at odds with official versions of what happened at Dealey Plaza. He says he was troubled immediately with the wounds. While the one to the President’s neck seemed to come from behind and was likely the work of Lee Harvey Oswald, it appeared the fatal shot to the back of the President’s head was an exit wound. And later when he closely examined the classic Abraham Zapruder film, he decided there had to be a second gunman. “That he (Kennedy) was shot from the front, from the picket fence,” adjoining the plaza. McClelland knows this runs counter to the accepted, lone gunman reports, but he claims we will likely never know just what happened that day. I do not see how this statement is in conflict with anything... He felt the wound he saw was an exit wound... it is obvious from the ZFilm that a shot was fired from the right front... which has been "explained" as jet-effect or muscle spasms, etc... since a good number of the frames surrounding 313 were removed to hide the ejecta from the back of the head... what was left was covered via plate painting... How is McC thrown under the bus by not agreeing with alteration here Andric? or Mr Ward for that matter.... there are too many problems with the zfilm in a number of areas for it NOT to be altered... including its current condition at the archives... there is nothing on that film that proves it as an original, THE original 0183... nothing. the film FROM its original form has been heavily altered... whether it was refilmed and replaced.. I believe so and very, very early that weekend... So the conflict is ???

The important thing is that the 6th floor WEST facing window is open - the corner Dillard catches that person... a step to the right and that person is at this other window... RE: the 4th floor - I always go back to Sawyer and his strange movements from 12:34-12:37 Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? (DJ - THE ELEVATOR THEY TOOK ONLY WENT TO THE 4TH FLOOR) Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to double check the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. (THEY DIDN'T LISTEN OR IMPLEMENT THIS ORDER) Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass

Gene - I've been spending the last 6 months or so pulling Armstrong's H&L apart and creating a side-by-side timeline which easily illustrates the H&L conflicts... After I am done and I check it thru with John I will be ready to put forth a paper - like Cliff notes - to the mass of info he pulled together. No One has gone to the extent as John has... and in most cases the Baylor collection has copies of original docs in their entirety... Something to remember is the "editing" job the WCR writers/lawyers performed for the commissioners... the WC's only got to see what they were shown... if at all. Conclusions were drawn based on incomplete, altered, created and forged docs done systematically by the FBI... I doubt they were even shown this affidavit. --- As one reads his handwriting... that TRULY "knows this person" yet does not name him at the time or subsequently, and is NEVER asked about the situation or the man Baker describes is to me, well amazing. Between this and the two rifle affidavits - which are instruments of legal evidence which in turn constitutes perjury. An individual who lies about the content within an affidavit may be sued for perjury and can also be subject to the sentence given to others who lie under oath if he or she is convicted of perjury - See more at: http://court.laws.com/affidavit#sthash.xTivxHlV.dpuf

May I suggest that it is not the case that most witnesses have described the shots as being evenly spaced? Sorry Andric if I didn't state that clearly... on the ZFILM we have three fairly evenly spaced shots... about 160, about 225 and 313... when most everyone tells of the 2nd and 3rd shots being virtually on top of each other... and that JFK and JC are hit with two different shots between z200 and z235. I realize it is not the popular yet I am going with the theory that ZFILM was at least partially filmed at 48fps if not entirely so that an alteration could be done quickly and easily to remove whatever may be objectionable... The painted frames between 313 and beyond are just that... they hide a frontal entry and rear blow-out... among other things. Muchmore/Nix are missing frames as well - where debris would have been ejected out the back of the head... With regards to that drawing... you are sure it was done BY McClelland and not just reviewed by him? It seems to me, even with the way they've tilted his head back in the color version, that all three fit pretty well. and that the wound is about level with the ears as well as above and below..

Ken... Those who saw a different version of the Zfilm say that the shot(s) literally lifted him up out of the seat... Yet the Newman's afidavits relate to the shot to his back just before the stemmons sign... the JUMP UP you are describing is related to the arms flying up and his reaction... Those that saw the other ZFILM say it was the headshot that lifts him up and then over to the left... Mr Newman tells us it appeared the shot hit him just above the right ear... he appears to be in a very good position to tell. By posting the text we remove all doubt as to what she said... HE said JFK was standing, not her - at least not in the affidavit. The fact that they are arguing about ER staff not knowing where a wound is, is getting absurd. Dozens of people have to be wrong for the US GOVERNMENT to be right... without any proof. and grown people ARGUE about this! Amazing. Mrs: When President Kennedy's car was about ten feet from us. I heard a noise like a firecracker going off. President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor Connally kind of grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car Mr: We were standing at the edge of the curb looking at the car as it was coming toward us and all of a sudden there was a noise, apparently gunshot [sic]. The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it. It was just like an explosion and he was standing up. By this time he was directly in front of us and I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head. I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me

Couple of things Richard... The image is very hard to tell about the 4th floor windows... but it is possible and would indeed be a GREAT place to shoot from and stay hidden and ADD to the echoes... Supressed weapons of the day were not silenced by any means... yet that could account for the way in which the shots are described as sounding so different. I only recently learned about the Mooney quote... and yes, it is VERY strange.. Add to this the "MAN" Sawyer runs into getting off the elevator at about 12:34... and the planting of evidence is about the easiest thing in the world to accomplish. Do you give much credibility to the Alyea story of the original shell positions, and the crimescene dolt Fritz picking them up, only to be throw/placed down later for photos? That statement is very damaging to any Oswald did it theory, if true. DJ

Here Richard... it does appear as if the 6th floor WEST facing window is open prior to our three guys opening the west window on the 5th... or so they say (the 5th floor windows are open at 12:40) and we do have the man in Dillard in the far WEST 6th floor window... Re the echo.... as I had posted at some point, the openess of the overpass area is not a good echo creator as opposed to the building up at ELM/HOUSTON... a shot from down by the overpass WOULD echo off buildings and could appear as a shot from up there... I don't think it works the same way in reverse... Holland was very sure between the first shots from UP by the corner of Elm/Houston and the shot that was fired from the GK fence.... The idea that UNKNOWN and ASSISTED assassins shooting from and planting evidence in the TSBD and just walking out is not something to be considered becasue "it makes no sense" or is not understood by those of us who were not in on the plot... seems to me dismissing one of the most obvious and easiest ways to leave the TSBD. Mr. BALL - Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation? Mr. MOONEY - I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex. Mr. BALL - Where did you go? Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy. Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs? Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. As mentioned on another thread/post... does it not make sense if MOONEY's ASSOCIATES - plainclothes officers - are coming down from where Mooney was rushing to, he would talk to these deputy sheriffs? WHO are they, WHEN/HOW did they get into the building so fast... I am not saying these people coming down were necessarily sinister... but the idea of just leaving thru the front or back door with SS/FBI credentials is really not that far-fetched. When the FIX is in and you are on the FIXED side... confidence and arrogance go a long way. HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT... DJ

What I find most interesting is that any one of us is tasked with describing the picture of a 1000 piece puzzle yet when we open the box and dump all the pieces we find we only have 150 of them and nothing about the 150 suggests they came from the original box... And then we all stand around and describe the picture we see... Boggles the mind that 50 years hence serious and intelligent people cannot even agree on the extent of the wounds... while spending time arguing conspiracy or not with those who have not even bothered to open the box. Pat - I don't know what to base the conclusion that at least two bullets found their mark with JFK's head... when the evidence from DALLAS suggests only one, the evidence from Parkland suggests only ONE. There is little to nothing of evidentiary value in the WCR related to how JFK was killed. The Zfilm does not match the recollections of those there (the evenly spaced shots).. there is no explanation for the missed shots, or even the "1st" shot, while suggesting as strongly as possible the SBT is supportable.... You "photographic analogy" holds no water Pat... when you learn that the images from the traffic camera have no chain of evidence and holds none of its original identifying marks... how do you equate that film to that day's events? There is no 0183 on the Zfilm... none. Even Zavada can't get around that... there is nothing on the extent film which proves it's original... there's nothing on the xrays that proves they are original, infact they prove they are NOT originals but altered copies... and THIS is what intelligent people discuss to determine the picture? The NIX and MUCHMORE films prove he was shot from the front... which is why THEY are not the focus of media attention... only the ZFILM is... how convenient. That a trail of particles - tiny particle - is left in the head indicates that bullet could NOT have been FMJ and NOT fired from the rear. There is simply no way fragments migrate UPWARD against gravity and leave a trail from NO OPENING to and obvious one at the man's temple... these are the fragments HUMES/BOSEWELL could not remove prior to 8pm... but had so mutilated the skull from 6:45-7:45 that is would NEVER serve as authenitc evidence. So we are left with DALLAS descriptions and Bethesda Alteration... we have multiple "front - right" witnesses and evidence... It is possible that we misinterpret the arms up and "hands to throat" movement as THROAT related rather than having a bullet wedged in his upper back at the time... We have O'Connor telling us of the bullet found and removed from the right rear of the president. WE do NOT have reliable evidence about what happened related to the throat wound and it's path thru the body... a small exploding round COULD have done the lower right rear damage while the front right temple shot pops open more of the bones... yet that requires we believe the BETHESDA wounds are the same as the DALLAS ones... and that is simply not possible given the AUTOPSY description of the wounds AFTER 8pm. The fragmenting of the FRONTAL right temple shot could also have created the right rear blowout yet we do not find any particles leading DOWN to the right rear... this would be the main reason for switching the brain and being deceptive with the xrays... Pat - you still neglected to tell us which witnesses from DP that day stated they saw the FRONT of his head open as seen in the lateral forged xray... (You've read Ebersole's testimonies right? The man came back in the middle of the night to produce MORE xrays... IMO Ebersole is in the same position as HUMES and assists by creating completely fraudulent xrays... At the end of the day, does it really matter? the evidence highly suggests a shooter to the right front of JFK.. the results of the assassination, recorded for history, is part of the cover-up.... and as Redlich states: I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture. So why do you use this information in forming your arguments and conclusions rather than the independent studies and non-government recording of witness testimony?

The Zapruder film alteration theory is one unintended casualty in this thread. Mr. Ward already stated that his views on film alteration have "evolved", when confronted about the fact that McClelland credits the film for his transformation from a "lone nut" theory supporter to a conspiracy theorist. Prudhomme needs some time to make the case for alteration without undermining McClelland's credibility. Please give him time. 1. The ONLY thing the film and autopsy evidence reveals is a conspiracy to cover-up the actual wounds and results... there is NOTHING of evidentiary value in determining what occurred in DP on those films that can be stated definitively. 2. n/a 3. Got to leave that to Robert... didn't realize he thought there was only one shooter - is that actually the case? 4. Because he was shot in the right temple... it's the ONLY thing that explains the trail of particles left which could not be removed by HUMES before 8pm If you can Pat - please explain how either the WCR or HSCA entry points leaves a trail of particles ABOVE the path of the bullet when - if shot from the front and hitting the right temple you have a perfectly logicaly explanation for them.. Thanks Pat DJ Do you completely discount Hill and Kellerman's testimony along with Bowron and everyone else at Parkland who only see a large hole at the back of his head? And maybe also explain how both the very TOP and very BOTTOm of the brain is virtually surgically cut by this ONE bullet leaving debris as far from the base of the brain as is possible..

The Zapruder film alteration theory is one unintended casualty in this thread. Mr. Ward already stated that his views on film alteration have "evolved", when confronted about the fact that McClelland credits the film for his transformation from a "lone nut" theory supporter to a conspiracy theorist. Prudhomme needs some time to make the case for alteration without undermining McClelland's credibility. Please give him time. Perhaps you would like to show me, in Dr. Clark's WC Testimony, where Dr. Clark testifies that the large, gaping wound he saw in JFK's head (tangential or exit or otherwise) was anywhere but the right rear of JFK's head. Pat Speer seems unwilling or incapable of performing this simple task. Perhaps you can do this for me? Dr. CLARK - The President was lying on his back on the emergency cart. Dr. Perry was performing a tracheotomy. There were chest tubes being inserted. Dr. Jenkins was assisting the President's respirations through a tube in his trachea. Dr. Jones and Dr. Carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. The President was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. I assisted. in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as Dr. Perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube . I then examined the President briefly. My findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation. I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present. <snip> Dr. CLARK - All right. Let me check what I remember Dr. Perry said at the first press conference. He was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and Dr. Perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort. Mr. SPECTER - And, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference? Dr. CLARK - He did not elaborate on this. One of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and Dr. Perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head. This comment has to do with the bullet ENTERING the throat and EXITING out the back/top of the head... It was a REPORTER'S question on what MIGHT have happened... Since nothing was done to examine the neck or back wounds it is indeed very possible that the throat wound along with the right temple shot - but that it was from the throat wound that the lower back of JFK's head is blown out. Yet good old Arlen wants to make sure it's in the record... the word "TOP" appears only twice, once here when describing the course of the throat shot FROM THE FRONT and the other is this: Mr. SPECTER - Now, you described the massive wound at the top of the President's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the President's head? Dr. CLARK - No, sir; I did not. No sir, he did NOT say anything about the TOP of the head... and when it comes right down to it... who else really matters? who else was close enough to the head wound in DALLAS and saw it clearly who says it was at the TOP of the head Hill? Bowron? McClelland? PAT - is there anyone anywhere from Dallas who testifies to ANYTHING resembling the forged lateral xray? ie "I saw the entire top, front of his skull open up" If you were to read the autopsy results - again - we find Humes describing the complete laceration of the TOP fo the brain matter attached to the TOP of the skull along with the laceration of an area just above th base of the brain stem and top of the spinal column... in other words this one bullet supposedly created all the correct incisions for a craniotomy... destroying most of the RIGHT hemisphere while completely removing the connecting tissue to the skull on the ENTIRE left side, top and base of the brain... now THAT's a magfic bullet! Clearly visible in the above described large skull defect and exuding from it is lacerated brain tissue which on close inspection proves to represent the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere. At this point it is noted that the falx cerebri is extensively lacerated with disruption of the superior saggital sinus In addition, there is a laceration of the corpus callosum extending from the genu to the tail. Exposed in this latter laceration are the interiors of the right lateral and third ventricles. Intersting that Boswell put NOTHING on the frontal view of the Face on the Descriptive Sheet... there is simply no way that what Humes/Boswell describes is the condition of JFK at PARKLAND... The TOP of the head may have ultimately been removed, but not by the shots in DP, but at the hands of HUMES in Bethesda. Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy. Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches; would that be approximately correct? Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head. Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head. Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head? Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed. Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this? Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed. Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Interesting you should state this Andric... the FBI was notorious for creating STRAW MAN docs from the evidence gathered.... http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=329093 This is the UNSIGNED UNCORRORATED report of the FBI interview with Bonnie Ray Williams stating he was on the 6th floor from 12:00 to 12:03. Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was. Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it? Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe. Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there? Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes. Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes. Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.? Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes. Whereas in reverse, we have the FBI report of McWatters stating that BELIEVES the man he picked up around Poydras/Elm takes the bus to "south of Saner Ave in Oak Cliff" http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=351 "SOUTH OF SANER" is at least 3 miles south of 10th and Patton and 4 miles south of Oswald's room... Mr. McWATTERS - Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point. I am curious though... WHAT do you think changes in this case if everyone who says the BACK of the head COULD have meant the TOP, the RIGHT REAR, the TOP RIGHT or any other such place Pat would like it to mean? Are we back at discussion whether the BETHESDA wounds were the same as the PARKLAND wounds - or what? Thanks DJ

Yes Robert... I believe he says "IN" an accident.... yet the only other DPD sent to OAK CLIFF was Nelson... and he had disobeyed the order and returned to ELM/HOUSTON without a words notice. He is then ordered to 4340 W. Davis Street at 1:19, yet there are already a number of DPD cars in the OAK CLIFF area... and 4340 is EAST, as far east ast anyone seems to be going that day... So WHY send him from ELM/Houston all the way out there unless Dispatch does not hear where he is and sends him anyway?? 1:11 Dispatcher Signal 7, 817 West Davis. 1:11 (Accident) 1:11 91 (Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson) 817 West Davis? This accident is 4 miles WEST of 4340 on W. Davis... and now we add Mentzel and Courson to the list. ================ Malcolm: 1 - Unless OSWALD was indeed LEE and not HARVEY... since LEE, Ruby and Tippit were known to have been together... having LEE take care of Tippit (one of the few who was aware of H&L) and lead the chase to the Texas Theater makes a lot of sense. IMO LEE is walking back from Ruby's place and down a street that TIPPIT had been seen many times before for some reason. While Markham claims this person walked across PATTON going EAST in the same direction as the police car that soon followed... Scoogins on the other hand sees the police car and then sees it stop by someone heading WEST on 10th. Is it really probable that Scoggins misses seeing OSWALD walk right past his car just seconds before Tippit arrives from the EAST?? Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east. Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising? Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say. Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street? Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth. Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours? Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west, going east On east Tenth. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see? Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him So Scoggins tells us he sees TIPPIT every day... interesting. do we have any more info about Scoggins' familiarity with Tippit and that particular area...? Maybe the Gentleman's Club ?? 2 - No, IMO HARVEY was taken to the Theater by the same car that honked and was at the theater before 1:10. HARVEY proceeds to move from seat to seat apparently in search of someone. 3 - WESTBROOK - if the analysis is correct - MUST have the wallet with him when he arrives at the scene... Not a soul sees this wallet next to Tippit while he's there or after he is taken away... this realization is terribly important.... it establishes fore knowledge of Oswald, the need to connect Hidell with Oswald with Tippit with the rifle.... (not a single question is asked of Oswald about the Tippit killing other than "did you do it?" WHY is he even walking there given the information in reports by both Kelley and Fritz about OSWALD claiming to have taken a BUS to his ROOM and a BUS to the THEATER... Does the following interrogation notes not just SCREAM set-up after the fact? Fritz is literally quoting Oswald - in order to establish that his story changed.... Kelly corroborates as expected. yet are we seeing a problem here with the times and date that needs correcting... Bookout's report (CE1988) also states that OSWALD said he took a bus to his residence... and remember the cabby's name mix-up at the start... Whaley's testimony is completely full of it... He tells us 15 times in his first appearance that he went to NECHES and N. BECKLEY.. (Which does not exist) and that he let his fare out at 500 N. Beckley Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And he said, "500 North Beckley." Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell is the uproar?" And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him. But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95 cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him. Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street? Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and North Beckley. Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley? Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block. Mr. BELIN. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to Washington, approximately? Mr. WHALEY. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't remember the exact date. Mr. BELIN. You testified before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in Washington, did you not? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped." Now is that what you told them on that day? Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day. Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not? Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley. Mr. BELIN. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound Bus Station* * *" Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man? Mr. WHALEY. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon. While Tippit's actions that day are indeed peculiar and important... I believe what he did in the 2-3 weeks prior is even more important in establishing the connections. I also believe that Roberts is not truthful when describing his being in a jacket when he leaves after changing his clothes... Repeatedly we have the interrogation notes talk about the changing of his clothes but NEVER is there mention of his wearing a jacket, or the discarding of said jacket.... Which, in turn, leads us back to WESTBROOK who is credited with finding the Jacket... yet cannot remember the name of the officer who pointed the jacket out to him, nor do his initials appear on the jacket.... Westbrook (Hill and Sawyer) are seemingly ALWAYS in the right places at the right time to find evidence to incriminate Oswald....

Are we quite sure this 2nd DPD member was not NELSON in car 87 who decided to go to ELM/HOUSTON instead of where he was assigned? Here are the only references to an accident occurring. West Davis and 5700 Live Oak are about 8 miles apart in very different areas of Dallas... Stanglin ?? 1:11 Dispatcher: Signal 7, 817 West Davis. 1:11 (Accident) 1:11 45 (Ptm. N.L. Stanglin): There's a minor accident in the 5700 block Live Oak. Do you want me to stay here or answer my call? 1:12 Dispatcher: 45, Signal 9, manager's office, 4916 Live Oak. 1:12. (Theft) 1:15 Dispatcher: Handle the accident. Disregard Live Oak. 1:15

I've always wondered: Oswald was arrested at 1:40pm, his arrest warrent states he is the murderer of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit. Between 1:40pm and 11:26pm when he is finally and supposedly formally charged with JFK's murder (although there is quite a bit of confusion regarding his "in-and-out" of the cell at 1:30 am for his arraignment, 2 hours after booking) The TIPPIT complaint is signed at 7:05 and he is arrainged at 7:10 for TIPPIT murder... Not a single question appears to have been asked about the TIPPIT case to this point... Is there a single evidenciary question asked about the Tippit murder asked between 1:40pm and 1:30am? It does not appear they cared much about asking or accusing him of the Tippit murder... Kelley: I asked him if he viewed the parade and he said he had not. I then asked him If he had shot the President and he said he had wt. I asked him if he had shot Governor Connally and he said he had not. He did not intend to answer further questions without counsel and that If he could not get Abt, then he would hope that the Civil Liberties Union would give him an attorney to represent him. At that point Captain Fritz terminated the interview at about 11:30 A.M.. 1-23-63.

Simply amazing that anyone can make a case for the people within 0-3 feet of JFK that day (both carrying him from limo to ER and standing at the table - these are Actual ER DOCTORS and NURSES who have actually dealt with gunshot wounds stating this - as opposed to a couple desk jockies with their bosses' bosses' boss standing over them telling them what to do, say, cut, look at, NOT cut, NOT to move or touch.....) And then to use "cognitive psychology" What exactly is the POINT here ? To use ANYTHING we can find to claim those that saw what they saw in DALLAS, were wrong? That their drawings are wrong Their statements are wrong Their photos are wrong.... Mrs Bowron met JFK at the limo and helped him onto the stretcher... His head was NOT laying on a table, She was Not looking at him upside down Same thing with CLINT HILL... Both are witnesses to JFK's wounds and have nothing at all to do with "cognitive psychology" or him laying on an ER table... Yet, I guess if one can use forged and fraudulent physical evidence to come to ironclad conclusions rather than the corroborated recollection of those who actually came in contact with the man at the time... you too can have your own chapter in the WCR charade. For someone who has done the JFK community so well over the years - to have this discussion over the PARKLAND people being wrong about the headwound seems at least to me as you taking 10 years and 20 steps off your analysis. Pat - so Bowron and Hill were also wrong? The NURSE does not know the difference between the BACK and TOP of the head ??? and the SS agent has no clue either. You next going to prove how CE339 exited JFK's throat and got to Rowley's office? Clint Hill sees JFK laying with the BACK AND RIGHT SIDE OF HIS HEAD FACING HIM DIRECTLY Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital? Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe as specifically as you can the head wound which you have already mentioned briefly? Dr. CARRICO - Sure.This was a 5- by 7 1-cm (sic) defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. There was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable slow oozing. Then after we established some circulation there was more profuse bleeding from this wound. Mr. SPECTER - Was any other wound observed on the head in addition to this large opening where the skull was absent? Dr. CARRICO - No other wound on the head.

Pat, why not just use the coat, jacket and backwound rather than a drawing? and the facts offered.... 20 degree downward angle at the point of contact, 11 degree upward movement of the bullet, 25 degree downward movement thru JC. Except we are talking about the headwound and what appears to be you desire to assist Bethesda and the ONI prove THEY are correct about the wounds. JFK's head did not come apart in their hands like HUMES tells us... his condition was such that the ER staff attempted life saving procedures... if the wound was as it appeared at 8pm in Bethesda, what kind of sick sadist of a doctor preforms a tracheotomy on a man whose head is open as BOSWELL described? Whether in the rear, right rear, or just RIGHT, how do you explain the disconnection of the brain from the skull on the LEFT side of the entire skull... so much so that the brain literally FALLS out of the opening in the skull... Seems to me you nbeed to read the autopsy section of BEST EVIDENCE again Pat. What Humes describes and what PARKLAND saw are mutually exclusive

I find it unfathomably naive to conclude in the midst of the most glaring of evidence and CONTEXT, that LHO did ANYTHING alone. It was suggested by Ron Paul at the debates a few years ago that 911 was the result of 60 years of US Foreign Policy. JFK was intent on changing that policy and was deemed potentially successful, so he was "neutralized" There isn't a time in all of History when you can find WHITE MEN not raping any and all resources wherever they can. Where both sides are played against each other for the entertainment and profit of a few. The 50's administations created the 60's need to "Protect and expand" the MICC which as Ike said had only become the dominant political and economic power during his administration, while he watched helplessly and NIXON wrung his hands. I was raised by very intelligent people who taught me to question things, to not simply accept at face value. Maybe it's a JEWISH thing? Judaism is an ongoing logical conversation with G-d and one's faith. Nothing is taken as true until it can be referenced and agreed upon... as we see from the Talmud. To support the WCR and LHO as Lone Nut is to close one's eyes to the CONTEXT of the times... JFK was not the only person who was killed to further the MICC agenda... far from it. ---- On the tape, recorded in May of 1972, the president confided to two top aides that the Warren Commission pulled off "the greatest hoax that has ever been perpetuated." Unfortunately, he did not elaborate.. Just THINK of the reputation and activities of the man saying THAT and in 1972 no less!. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Watergate, CREEP, MLK, RFK, etc, etc... That people with a brain in ther heads can look at history and not see what RICH WHITE MEN have done and continue to do is a head shaker for me... That anyone can believe these MEN simply stood by and watched JFK do his thing hoping some little man would take care of it for them is simply too difficult for me to understand DJ

You should provide the link to that article Vince... One of the very best - and opened the door to the SS for me at least.... Any thoughts on DILLION's involvement?

Kelley goes a step further to say OSWALD "says" he took the bus, via a transfer, all the way to the Texas Theater.. He then claims, after FRITZ mentions the cab, that Oswald changed his story.... https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=29105&relPageId=1

Fritz's interrogation notes suggest a different means of OSWALD getting to his room... "He told me he left by bus and rode to a stop near home and walked on to his house" Followed by a "QUOTE" from Oswald.... changing the previous answer to now include a cab ride... This is one of the few "QUOTES" attributed to OSWALD... This screams to me that Fritz simply wrote what needed to be written... If OSWALD really took a bus home, the BLEDSOE bus and WHALEY cab stories are fabricated (and to me proven by the description of the ARREST clothing rather than what he was wearing to work... The final line on this page reinforces that OSWALD changed his clothes when he got home.... one of the few constants in his "as told to" comments.

Or the piece BORING recants on the very next day after revealing it... the piece found in the SS follow-up car... that also disappears to History

Nice to see one for our side once in a while... Way to go Vince... Now, I'm sorry if I missed where you address this... your thoughts on DILLION leading the Treasury and the SS behavior. Thanks DJ

What are we missing here Pat ?? McClelland mistaken again in this photo along with everyone else? (yes, I know there are Bethesda witnesses in this mix... and THEY also place the wound in the same spot) Since the bones were hinged OUT, is it not conceivable that one or more of these bones would hinge UP requiring holding it down from the TOP of the head? One does not hold NOTHING over a hole in the skull... the only things left to HOLD on JFK's skull was the TOP/FRONT of the head.. the BACK was gone.... just not according to the autopsy report and xrays...