David Josephs

Tommy - What I now understand and accept is that the evidence - virtually ALL of it - was PACKAGED with a single purpose, a single vision, and bears little resemblence to what actually happened... unless you dig and are willing to accept witness statements over packaged physical evidence. The evidence that presented itself on the 22nd led those in Dallas to conclude shots came from the front and that putting Oswald in that window with that rifle at that time is impossible. It also offered the impossibility of Oswald getting from his room to Tippit in the time allowed... ALLOWED - not investigated... He came in from the WEST, from the Barber shop... yet somehow THAT didn't make the published report. EVERYTHING that comes after the SS steals JFK is a lie designed to finish the plan - Oswald the lone nut killed the POTUS just like all POTUS assassinations and he did it alone, from behind with 3 shots. In virtually EVERY CASE the evidence published had nothing to do with the evidence gathered or analyzed... To ME, It does not matter at all whether HARVEY's words were lies or not...we have no way to prove what he said... or even whether the reports of what he said are accurate or not... it's Fritz and Bookout against a publically convicted dead man. The evidence of the conspiracy is pervasive thoughout the evidence offered... These "reports" were written after the fact and after Oswald was dead. They were read by WCR lawyers who picked and chose what was best for the "report" - people like Specter and Jenner and Ball. Of course Oswald didn't always tell the truth... so what? Is there anything you believe he could have said that would have made a bit of difference? Anything you believe ANYONE could have said that would have changed the outcome? Baker perjured himself when he testified about OSWALD - or he perjured himself when he wrote his affidavit. Here we are MONTHS later with MONTHS of investigation and analysis and conclusion... The FBI had concluded Oswald was the man on Dec 9, 1963 and stopped looking for anyone else Nov 23, 1963. Believe what ever you like Tommy... if Fritz said Oswald said it... it must be true. In a world where the memo below is written from one WCR lawyer to another and DROPPED COMPLETELY as well as Harvey & Lee being a proven fact... this minutia will keep you busy forever... Textron's purchase of BELL helicopter (while they were $100M in debt and losing sales) in late summer 1960 on the advice of the CIA and funded by an unsecured $25,000,000 "loan" with a 6-YEAR deferred payment plan from PRUDENTIAL LIFE and with the legal help of the HIGHLY PRESTIGIOUS legal firm Cravath, Swain and Moore where McCloy was a partner and another partner becomes #2 at Defense under McNamara... all tying back to the First Bank of BOSTON and SUN Life of London... to ME is much more revealing of the highest level plans to profitize the Vietnam war and the impetus behind the assassination... then the workings of Fritz/Curry/Decker and the FBI/SS/CIA to cover up the realities of the killings. The high-technology branch of Textron operations began quietly in Massachusetts in 1946 as the American Research and Development Corporation. a three million dollar venture-capital firm. It was founded by the Sun Life Assurance of London through its Boston operative. Paul F. Clark. president of the John Hancock Life Insurance Company and director of First National of Boston, the bank whose extraordinary largess built Textron ALL THE EVIDENCE IS BS Tommy, and can only serve to illustrate the conspiracy and cover-up. THIS is what the FBI said happened: a shot AFTER z313 - 3 shots, 3 hits - ever see THIS presented by anyone to the public or a government inquiry/committee?. The memo below that is, to me, much worse than Katzenbach... April 27, 1964 MEMORANDUM TO: J. Lee Rankin FROM: Norman Redlich snip Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President by the third and fatal bullet. The report will also conclude that the bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast corner window of the TSBD building. As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested above. All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination. snip Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin. snip I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture. Tommy - they didn't correct the reports, now did they?

David, I see your point. They needed a proofreader! Hmmm, actually, that wouldn't explain it, would it. You seem to be arguing that the the bad guys made that sentence up and put it in Oswald's mouth. i'm saying they probably didn't make it up because I don't think they were clever enough to not answer the question in such a creative, Oswald-like way. But you're right. Oswald probably didn't say exactly that sentence. He probably said, "You know how young guys are...," and they misquoted him, seein' as how so much time had elapsed and all. Question: Since the bad guys claimed that Oswald denied owning a rifle, why didn't they have him deny owning a revolver, too? Then, they could "produce' the one he may-or-may-not have owned and substituted it for the one that may-or-may-not have been planted on him in the theater, yelled xxxx xxxx pants on fire, publicized it, and gotten their own gun back! --Tommy Tommy - What I'm arguing is that without a tape recording (stenographer notes can be changed or transcribed incorrectly) we cannot know.... and going on the basis of what the rest of the evidence tells us - Oswald was guilty before it even happened so much so that virtually every piece of evidence recorded and offered confirms this preconclusion... is it really a surprise to you that the DPD coordinated its story and made sure to account for all the WHY's... while at the same time dropping the clues to their compliance with the conspiracy? The amount of "evidence" created after the fact is mind boggling... everything from ONI files "compiled" for outside review which cherry-picked the info, to the interpretation/inclusion of parts of the FBI WCDocs, to what the FBI reports themselves say, to who they DIDN'T talk to. COULD he have said it? of course... SHOULD the DPD be infinitely ashamed of itself and held accountable for not bothering to record as evidence the FREELY GIVEN statements of the suspect PRIOR to his arrest for said crime or arraignment... of course.... Now... to Fritz's notes and his report.... In the NOTES (p3 of 5) - it says Oswald tells him he "bgt gun 7 mo Ft W.(orth)" surprisingly THAT didn't make the interrogation reports... In the REPORT (p3) it says that Oswald said "he went home, changed his trousers, and got his pistol and went to the pictures" In the NOTES (and from Bookout) we learn it was not just his trousers but his shirt as well.. WHERE does Oswald talk about putting on a jacket before he left?? Fritz's report continues with WHALEY identifying Oswald... even though he was not the cab driver of 1st choice.... and on and on.... ==== Tommy - my overridding point here is that the evidence - especially "this is what Oswald said and did according to us... yet we have no proof" - is not something we can have any real faith in... The EVIDENCE offered supports his changing his shirt... and that the recollections of those who see OSWALD prior to his arrest (Bledsoe and Roberts) are at best coached reconstructions using the evidence found and clothing on when arrested as its basis. Fritz writes twice in the3 notes he changed his shirt... yet fails to inform the FBI who has the "arrest shirt" on the 22nd, that it is NOT the shirt worn at 12:30.... Why not?

Hi Tom... Should have's, why not's, wouldn't you's can be fun thought exercises yet what does that get us? The question to ask is whether the revolver turned in is the same as the revolver that was supposedly in his possession. Since Seaport is bogus and he also says he got the gun elsewhere... had you considered the DUPLICITY of this situation as it fits with the DUPLICITY is most every other one.... 2 guns... the one Oswald MAY have gotten from his room and the one used in the shooting... I think if you read thru each of the statements from the "arresting officers" at the scene in the theater you'd have a better feel for the "gun in Oswald's hand going 'snap'" and who had what... if "whoever" was able to place an unfired mail order rifle under some boxes - is it so hard to see the same set-up with the revolver? ----- I'm also curious about that statement.... Fritz, on page 600 of WCR Appendix 11, types this line... it does not appear in his notes... This is the opening of A11... and yet days/weeks later (after his death) you want us to believe he and the others were get these "quotes" correctly ?? As discussed in chapters IV and V, Ike Harvey Oswald was interrogated for a total of approximately 12 hours between 2:30 p.m. on Friday, November 22,1963, and 11:15 a.m. on Sunday, November 24, 1963. There were no stenographic or tape recordings of these ihterviews. Several of the investigators present at one or more of the interrogation sessions, prior to testifying before the Commission, had prepared memoranda setting forth their recollections of the questioning of Oswald and his responses. The following are the most important of these reports.

Thanks Richard... Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon? Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers-- Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it. Mr. BELIN - I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon? Mr. CRAIG - It's the same type of shirt. Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing? Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh. Roger is not shown CE151... Wonder why?

Richard, I've read in either Truly's or Shelley's WC testimony that the order fillers like Oswald rarely had occasion to go up to the sixth floor to fill an order. Anyway, what does it really matter which shirt Prayer Man was wearing? Would the "tan" "light brown" "brown" button-down collar one be better at covering Oswald's tee shirt? Is that why he has to be wearing that one? Do you think it's impossible that Oswald lied about changing his clothes? He was known to have prevaricated from time to time, wasn't he? if you had gone home just to get your revolver and some ammunition, would you admit it to the interrogators? Do you think Oswald really went home just to change his dirty clothes and grabbed his gun as an afterthought? Or do you think that gun was planted on him at the Texas Theater? --Tommy Thomas, hope you don't mind my addressing your question... Look at all the images of either Oswald... but focus on Harvey. Appears to me that he is ALWAYS dressed fairly well... from USMC days thru FPCC leafletting - and was dressed just fine at the theater until they roughed him up a bit. My point is that HARVEY it seems, liked to make a decent impression. He did so to Truly when he was interviewed.... and I have yet to see a photo of HARVEY where he is not dressed well. The big IF Oswald knew he had to get tot he theater to meet a contact... and knowing he was doing the work for the FBI/CIA he would have to protect himself... Although there is testimony from those in the theater at the time that the revolver was being held by a dark, short sleeved arm... and we KNOW the Seaport Chain of evidence is bogus.... so his being set up with a planted gun... especially given what Hill says about the shells... is very possible/probable. Ask yourself whether WESTBROOK's finding of the jacket makes any sense... Oswald grabs a jacket only to take it off and leave it on the ground ??? How reliable is the half blind Earlene Roberts? The problem I have is Fritz page 2... "Says 11-22-63 rode bus got trans same out of pocket ........ got off bus after seeing jam got cab etc .85 fare told you wrong before at apt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in ditry clothes - long sleeve red sh + gray tr." The "TOLD YOU WRONG BEFORE" sounds like a quote from Oswald... was he telling them that was NOT how it happened yet they did not include that part?? IDK... but the bus ride and Baker/Truly did not happen as these notes suggest... and Oswald I believe says so repeatedly.... These notes were not made public or even offered to the SS/FBI until ?? (any help?) so that Bledsoe's story could be made to support the notes.... I am also not 100% convinced that HARVEY was the man who went to his room in "shirt sleeves".... unless he had already removed his shirt as he was moving along. (As a side note, I know I have favorite clothes, no reason to believe that Oswald here did not like much of the same things... grey slacks, t-shirt and brown/reddish sport/dress shirt as a "jacket" or covering. He also had some blue stuff but for the most part his clothing was all very similar) Awareness of this info about his changing clothes (or Baker's affidavit saying nothing about a lunchroom, door or little window) leads me back to the conclusion that the evidence compiled to convict Oswald was created on the spot as needed... Soemthing the DPD and FBI were notoriously known for. DJ

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/21/2110-030.gif And in the notebook used to record all the evidence and where it is listed on the inventory sheets - even the "reddish shirt with metallic thread" becomes a BROWN SHIRT... Speculation as to whether he changed his clothes or not is just that, speculation. Either we believe that Fritz and Bookout got what he said correctly or they made it up... the clothes they describe, WHERE they describe it as Oswald supposedly tells them... is exactly where they were found. The Oswald Mrs Reid sees in a Tshirt is not the same person Ruby killed.... or in my opinion the man she stammers about NOT seeing/leaving in the lunchroom Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15? Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there. Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls? Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone. Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom? Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all. Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on

Excellent Sean... I had made the argument to Cinque and Fetzer about the changing of the clothes which in turn makes Bledsoe a tool of the DPD and it impossible to use Altgens and the arrest shirt for any comparisons .... Here is the final inventory page 11199G, a closeup of the first batch of clothing NOT NUMBERED past 455. Oswald (via Fritz and Bookout) tell us he changed shirt and "briches"... and put them in the bottom drawer of the dresser... obviously dirty... and here it is listed without an inventory # - these are the items Stovall and Rose initialed before releasing to FBI... notice what looks like "RF" Robert Frazier's initials on the front bottom - left side of shirt Do you know when and where THEY SAY CE151 was found? and please notice the next items of clothing... ce156 and ce157... the "gray" slacks he was said to be wearing... by Whaley, Frazier, Bledsoe although none were sure.... Cheers DJ

Cliff... before I begin I want you to know I agree with the conclusion that the holes in the shirt and jacket make the SBT impossible. Whether exotic weapons were also used... IDK but given it existed and these boys liked their toys, why not? My concern with this approach is that it does not address the larger picture.... Gerald Ford fixed it and the WCR lied about it to support a conclusion that HAD to be accepted.... while the physiology is impressive... this overlay tells the entire story. SBT=impossible... we get that and so do MOST of the "newbies".... Public attention will wane since there is little new or JUICY to keep the attention.... other than the discussion over the shameful way Dallas treated the anniversary. At 6:45 EST (5:45 Dallas time and just over 5 hours after the shots) the Surgeon General of the Navy with the help/knowledge of Admirals Galloway and Burkley remove evidence from the medical record that points to more than one shooter.. This occurs during PHASE 1 - "the Commie did it possibly with the help/direction of Castro" A Castro/Commie conspiracy to kill JFK SUPPOSEDLY was the desired result of an investigation so the MILITARY could be unleashed. There is good evidence that this was called off DURING THE FLIGHT BACK and that Oswald was to be the one and only.... at the same time evidence in Dallas is NOT TAKEN to support a GK shooter. No photos of the footprints and "assets" already working the crowd..... How would THEY know at 1:30 in Dallas that evidence of a communist conspiracy WITH OSWALD would also not be acceptable... Unless there was foreknowledge - which in reality os the entire ball of wax.... FOREKNOWLEDGE removes all doubt... Also during this flight, arrangements are in the works for personnel (Humes/Boswell/Kenney/Ebersole) at Bethesda to receive JFK's body at 6:45. Humes testifies to such. Bethesda and the DC district are run by Galloway and Wehle (Lipsey is Wehle's asst) Kenney is in the room with Hume and Boswell when JFK's body is "unzipped" - they would also be aware of the caskets and the returning of the body to the navy ambulance. Thanks to O'Connor and a handful of others, we KNOW what happened in that morgue prior to 8pm. WCR: (NOT possible unless the body is removed from the PARKLAND casket) Mr. SPECTER - What time did the autopsy start approximately? Commander HUMES - The president's body was received at 25 minutes before 8, and the autopsy began at approximately 8 p.m. on that evening. You must include the fact that certain X-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination. HSCA: (He's still off by an hour or so... and does not address what the MDW was doing) Mr. CORNWELL. Approximately what time of the day or night did the autopsy begin? Dr. HUMES. well, the President's body, as I recall, arrived about 7:30 or 7:35 the evening and after some preliminary examinations, about 8 or 8:15. Just very briefly, in what order or sequence did you conduct the autopsy? ARRB: (And here it is... corroboration of the story of half dozen other men... ) Q. During the autopsy, was the room quiet and hushed or noisy and bustling? How would you describe the scene? A. It varied. We were there for a long time. We were there from about 6:00 or 6:30 in the evening until 5 o'clock the next morning. Q. Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy? A. I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately. As we both know the Casket does not even arrive out front until 6:55... is offloaded by the SS/FBI at 7:17... is REloaded and offloaded again by 8pm. And yet this information floats out there without serious concern or comment to its impossbility.... or the implications it has to the testimony of these morgue "workers" ... Like the bullet holes, THESE cannot be moved or changed or made to disappear by the CIA/FBI/SS or anyone else. And yet we are discussing evidence that has no authentication, no chain of custody, nothing that would lead ANYONE to conclude it was a representation of JFK at Parkland... Just the kind of dead horse stuff you mention in others.... the medical evidence is as far from "evidence" as it gets... So what is the "big juicy" that may keep the interest of the common person? That the FBI lied and fabricated/altered/destroyed evidence? Too much there to use - overwhelms the unitiated... How about Hoover sending an Agent to Ft Worth TX on Saturday morning the 23rd to get the asst principal out of bed to TAKE the original school records of Lee Harvey Oswald from 1954 and yet another agent to NOLA to question the employees, managers and owners of Pfisterer Dental about 1956, 1957 and 1958. What pray tell did HOOVER KNOW that prompted him to gather up materials from Oswald's past, specifically these two places and times, in the first hours after charging Oswald with JFK's murder? Oswald was an FBI informant ... If HOOVER needed to protect that info from coming out... what do Stripling Junior High School 1954 and Pfisterer Dental 1958 have in common? What was so important in Oswald's past that HOOVER needed to keep info from 1954 hidden?

Yes, HARVEY ... and it's too bad you aren't "into" that scenario Thomas. It remains the only plausible answer to many. many questions (i.e. why does HOOVER need to send agents to Stripling Jr High in Ft Worth and Pfisterer's in NOLA within 12 hours of Oswald being charged with JFK's murder - 11:30pm 11/22 -, and to the Red Cross within days for the 1956-62 original docs... any reason the 7 year old 1956 JR High Records, the 1956-58 employement records and the 1956-62 Red Cross Dependency Discharge records of the 1963 accused assassin would be of ANY VALUE to the prosecution? Have you EVER seen a letter TO Oswald in RUSSIA from his mother or brother? He has 1956 W-2's but not the stack of letters from his mother and brother....) I'd suggest reviewing CE1961(military records of Oswald in the USMC) followed by the FELDE statement in ce1962.... which contradicts the Marine's info... or the handwritten notes by HARVEY upon his return to the USA detailiing where he was and when... they agree with FELDE and NOT the LEE history we get in the USMC docs... One of the greatest failings imo of our research community is that we KNOW the FBI created/altered/destroyed evidence... yet we have trouble believing that Hoover was aware of these two men and knew exactly where to go to make their original records disappear (from 5-10 years before, NYC was 1952). Add to this the pile of evidence from every corner of the world and from each and every year of his existence that supports there being 2 men who became 1 set of historical documents .... and you have one of the most important safeguards that we'd NEVER know who LHO was... You think Hoover made sure to confiscate James Earl Ray's Jr High School records on the day following the killing? What could possbily prompt Hoover to do this in Oswald's case ?? =============== With regards to the timing of the tramp photos.... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 According to these statements the amount of time between the shots and the moving of these men thru DP was not almost 2 hours.... but instead not very long after the assassination. I've looked at the shadows in other images and the ones in the tramps photos actaully do appear to be only slightly longer in relation to the subject's body. If you have better info on time stamping the photos... please share... At this point in time I think LEE is preparing to assist or actually do the shooting in the killing of TIPPIT... LEE, the bigger man, MAY have been the owner of the medium sized jacket that was left to be found....... but that's just a thought. LEE had already left when this photo of HARVEY - if it is - was taken. I believe it was taken around 12:40-12:50. please correct me if I'm wrong. All this is speculation anyway... for if it was much later, that couldn't be HARVEY... the man arrested at the theater. DJ

Much appreciated Thomas.... and this by default helps to support Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald near the front entrance shortly before the motorcade arrived... Which also helps support the notion that MRS REID sees LEE and not HARVEY... leaving the TSBD.... Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. One of the three tramps photos shows what appears to be OSWALD near the entrance of the TSBD talking to a policeman(?) he is in long sleeves (far right) I happen to believe the lunchroom scene NEVER OCCURRED and was created by Truly/Baker and Fritz to negate Arnold's statement about seeing Oswald right about the time of the shooting. The very FIRST LINE of the FIRST PAGE OF FRITZ's NOTES starts off with "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in" Who starts off by writing on the RIGHT HAND SIDE of a page and working back to the left? And don't you suppose OSWALD would know it was TRULY who was with the "off" who came in? No mention of that at all... Not sure at all which question this is an answer to, if it was made up, or what order the questions where asked.....

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom? Thanks DJ

Simple question DVP - almost twice as much evidence comes BACK from the FBI then was sent to the FBI.. Each item of EVIDENCE that belonged to OSwald was initialed and photographed IN DALLAS before sent to DC the night of the 22nd. There is evidence given to the FBI on the 26th WITHOUT the DPD initials - and items NOT LISTED on DPD inventories, yet was returned from the FBI...? as we see, ALLEN DULLES felt it necessary to rewrite Cadigan's testimony - the man that fingerprint tested and desilvered HUNDREDS of items that weekend while there is only one page of "inventory from Dallas" which Drain signed... Good trick turning what looks like a handful of items into HUNDREDS. Drain signed Inv sheet 11176-G on the 22nd. Lt. DAY writes in his report that Drain and the FBI took ALL the evidence... that the CSSS collected.... except for the one 6.5mm hull Fritz keeps, LHO billfold with 16 pix, and a notebook from Beckley he had since the 22nd..... ooops. The OSWALD PERSONAL PROPERTY EVIDENCE is - in very large part - FABRICATED BY THE FBI over the weekend following the assassination... when and if DVP can authenticate any single piece of evidence we can go from there... In the meantime... he argues conclusions based on inauthentic evidence and tautological statements ... a pure WCR apologist at his best...

So one wonders if the cartridges Fritz picks up to show to Alyea are the same ones in evidence (or were ever there when they arrived at that corner) considering this FBI report from 11/23 stating that somehow 3 spent cartridges by the window does not constitute "physical evidence" along with a paper bag, boxes with potential prints, the movement of boxes AFTER the shots... from this summary there was NO EVIDENCE AT ALL on the "sixth" floor at least...

It is not until CE357 that we are finally offered ANY EVIDENCE related to the assassination of JFK in the H&E section of the 26 volumes. So which is the FIRST WCE that implicates OSWALD ?? Good luck with that. Mr. SPECTER - Did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast? Mr. ROWLAND - At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now. (ATF AGENT) Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say? Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time." Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle--- Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building? Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner. Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on? Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor? Mr. SAWYER. Yes. Mr. BELIN. What side of the building? Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.

Now onto September 14, 1953... We've seen how the records for an OSWALD child are woefully incorrect. That the Truant/YOUTH HOUSE child could not attend PS44 for the # of days offered, between MArch 23, 1953 and June 1, 1953 (end of semester) as his attendence records start up again on Sept 14, 1953. On Sept 24, 1953 (after 9 days of school) His mother tells Carro http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0163b.htm that LHO is doing better and has been elected CLASS PRESIDENT ... She also confirms his stay at YOUTH HOUSE from April 16 thru May 7th which again, is not reflected on the attendance records but DOES confirm he was NOT at PS44 during this time. There are only 50 days of School between March 23, 1953 and June 1, 1953 and we KNOW he did not attend at all from Jan 16, 1953 thru March 22, 1953.... So how exactly can LHO attend 109 days of school in the span of time with only 50 days available? Progress reports from the school continue to be very derogatory for this CLASS PRES... who was in 8th grade not 9th at the time - unless we are talking about two different people... 9/24/53 : Mrs. Oswald telephoned on this date, to state that she would be unable to appear in court. She pointed out that she felt that there is no necessity for her to return to court as the boy has made a marvelous adjustment . Lee re turned to school on May 7th and had a very good attendance record thereafter. At the present time he is in the 9th grade at P.S . 44 and recently had the honor of being elected class president. 10/21/53 : Progress which was requested on 10/16/53 from P.S . 44 received on this date . Boy indicates that since the term commenced he has been present in school 21 3/2 days and absent 1-3/2 days. His conduct is described as unsatisfactory. The school reports that the child has shown no improvement . Mrs. Oswald does not cooperate with the school authorities. She did not answer to a summons to come to school about her son's welfare . ("During the past 2 weeks practically every subject teacher has complained to me about the boy's behavior . He has consistently refused to salute the flag during early morning exercises . In many rooms he has he done no work whatsoever . He spends most of his time sailing paper planes around the room. When we spoke to him about his behavior, his attitude was belligerent. I offered to help him he brushed out with, "I don't need anybody's helpt .") (Signed) H. Rosen, Teacher) 12/21/53 : Material on Lee Oswald returned from Court Clinic this date. A letter was attached indicating that the family's lawyer to inform us that the family is moving to New Jersey. (Material filed in case record .) Yet when we see the same sequence of events presented as WCE2223 - the "Family Lawyer's Letter" and mention of moving to NJ are removed... MO tells Carro that she "has to move from NY" but gives no reason... and is gone on Jan 12th. One wonders with what car and what money does MO and LEE leave NYC... ?? 12/17/53 Received telephone call from Mrs. Oswald who stated that she found our card on returning home from work and wished to know the reason for our contact . Explained to her that Mr. Carro, probation officer of the Children's Court had asked that become interested in her son Lee. She seemed quite disturbed stating something to the effect that how long was this thing going to last because since the boy had returned from Youth House, he had been attending school each day and from all accounts doing well. Could sense that Mrs . Oswald was rather disturbed about this matter and tried to give her an idea of what the Big Brother program was. She seemed to calm down considerably and suggested that Lee stop in at the office some time during the Christmas holidays . She did not take too kindly to this idea and advised that we would stop in at the home some evening as soon as possible . 12/23/53 Called at the home of Lee Oswald but no one was at home . Will call again.

I am reviving this thread after a year and change as I have spent a considerable amount of time with the subject and author. I have concentrated on Sept 1952 thru Jan 1954 as this appears to be one of the first major discrepancies in the record for LEE HARVEY OSWALD (there are some earlier concerns over an address on San Saba whcih was purchased by LEE's mother, yet the woman remembered as living there is the short/fat mother of HARVEY. CE1384 has some very interesting yet completely conflicting information in it. 1) Page 693 is a "7th Grade ONLY" version of the COMPLETE record found on page 697: In the real world this form is updated year to year and added to as needed, it is not rewritten when a child changes schools, moves or any other activity. Please note these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FORMS with different handwritting - there is NO RECORD of how he got his grades at PS117 (no Cumulative record like ps44 on p.692) and NO OTHER WCE that deal with his NY schooling other than those A bit further in the same exhibit is p.699 which is on the same form as the "7th Grade Only" form on p.693 yet this too has been COPIED OVER from the original on page 693... and then completed with the information from p.697. (whether 697 or 699 came first is unknown - what IS KNOWN is that there are two IDENTICAL records for one LEE HARVEY OSWALD. 2) The FBI reports all mention that LHO attended JHS44 for 171 FULL DAYS and 11 HALF DAYS from 3/23/53 thru 1/12/54; with a total of 18 full days ABSENT and 11 half days ABSENT. (CE1384) From MARCH 23, 1953 thru JANUARY 12, 1954 there are only 133 TOTAL SCHOOL DAYS AVAILABLE Furthermore... LHO was remanded to the YOUTH HOUSE on April 16th until MAY 7th. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0260b.htm and obviously did not attend PS44 - he is at YH for 11 SCHOOL days leaving only 122 TOTAL SCHOOL DAYS available for him to attend - NOT TO MENTION THE 18 days and the 11 half days he ALSO was absent leaving only 104 FULL SCHOOL DAYS LHO could have attended this school. 3) In 6th grade he was repeatedly described as the LEADER of the group.. the BIGGEST and STRONGEST who would fight and win in most every case. His school records from PS44 - 7trh GRADE show him as a 5'4" 114lb boy. His class picture from 6th Grade has him in the back row where most of the tallest are placed (at least that's what I remember when I was in school in the 60's). the BRONX ZOO photo, supposedly taken in the summer of 1953 (one month prior to this School Record being created) has what I found to be a standard height guard rail of the time, 36" high divided in two. Does not appear to me that HARVEY here is 10 inches taller than the 54" mark. Furthermore, CE1384 also shows he was the same height in March 53 NOR does he look like the 6th grade LEE Dr. Kurian was the first doctor to see LHO at the NY DOMESTIC RELATIONS Court of NY. (Dr. K goes on to be the President of the Amer Psych Assn) The FBI never spoke to Dr. K even though he wrote a letter to Jackie in which he states: When I saw this slender, underdeveloped boy I sensed what was wrong. This was not a quiet and obedient child but one who was withdrawn from the real world and responded to outside pressures to that degree necessary to avoid the disturbance of his residence in a fantasy world. Dr. Kurian was surprised when told that Oswald was 13 years old as he appeared quite small for his age and stood no more than 4-foot-6 or 4-foot-8 (Dr. Kurian was 5-foot-7). This photo is taken in Aug. 53 Dr. K sees LHO in March/April 53 There is more, much more, even from just this very small window of time including the Oct/Nov visit of John Pic and Robert Oswald to the 1455 Sheridan address in the Bronx. While John describes the isit vividly with he and his wife fixing Robert up on a double date... Robert claim NEVER to have been in NY until late 1953. At this "dinner" LHO does not join the family for dinner, does not speak to anyone, and what was once a very close relationship with John stemming from time spent together at John's apartment in Manhattan, has deteriorated into a very cold and indifferent shoulder to his oldest brother. John Pic correctly picks HARVEY from LEE in the LIFE mag spread he is questioned about. Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that? Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald. Here is a map to get an idea of the locations wer are talking about from the Trinity School, to Jacobi, to JHS 117 & 44, the PIC apartment and the two locations MO/LHO lived. DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THIS INFORMATION IS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE WCR AND WCDs. THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS FROM EACH OF THESE SCHOOLS ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE AS THEY WERE PICKED UP BY ASST DIRECTOR MALONE OF THE FBI WITHIN 20 HOURS OF THE ASSASSINATION (PRIOR TO ANY DISCUSSION WITH MO ABOUT WHERE LHO WENT TO SCHOOL WHICH OCCURS IN EARLY DECEMBER). ALL THAT ARE LEFT ARE THE FBI COPIES AND UNSIGNED FBI REPORTS FOR THAT TIME.

Interesting stuff Josh... thanks. I wonder if the "on and off again" motorcycles related to a certain time period... 1) as they turned the corner 2) As they straightedned out in fron of the TSBD 3) when the limo slowed to a crawl/stop Making these sounds of course makes sense to mask gunshots... doing so prior to the motorcade arriving puts that sound into the consicousness as something not threatening ... ?? Was there a supervisor in DPD specific to these motocycle cops who might have suggested such behavior? Need to go look DJ

I've searched a bit and there are a few sites that have this recording That does not sound like Jackie to me... the accent on specific words is simply not right... especially if you listen to her other recordings yet I do not find where this call was even considered a fraud... has this call been authenticated as really her? Another "pillow talk" sounding call... from 1964 but you can barely hear her... And more from the Schlesinger interviews... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcQgt9MhpPk Maybe the others are right and she is playing him as she always played him.... it just doesn't ring true to me... DJ

Pat - Give the people what they want and they will buy People do not WANT to be told our government is guilty of this... they don't WANT the red pill and see the world as it really is... even as they KNOW it to be true. By reading a BOOK or seeing a TV SHOW that tells them some crazy guy did it, and their government did all it could.... they can sleep at night. Amazing isn't it... when nasty frauds make millions selling a lie, that's AMERICA... but when a truth seeker earns a few dollars with a book it's OPPORTUNISTIC and SHADY. None DARE call it Conspiracy.... Peace DJ

While I hate this to sound defeatist... we KNOW the Truth and it scares the living heck out of anyone who knows it for what it is - the TRUTH about humanity. We investigate the assassination because that's exactly what the SPONSORS wanted... to have it remain a question with many answers... rather than a single answer with many questions. What other event created the mass of "available" info that this does? What other event (other than MLK and RFK) remains in the public eye ... has the wealth of evidence of all sorts... and remains not only unsolved, but virtually unknowable in its breadth and depth... AND STILL HOLDS THE PUBLIC INTEREST There is simply no example in all of human history to show that humans are a cooperative species over the long term. In fact, we are called the human RACE... we define our existance by evolution's SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST Someone wins and many, many lose. Especially in the dark areas of the world where no one is watching. TRUTH IS everyday there are a few winners and massive losers... "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt I find this to be the truth in almost all aspects of life. At a certain level, life is a string of accidents and happenstance. But when there are clear winners and losers... those that benefitted and those that suffered.... You can be fairly sure that a specific group of our species is working together to achieve the end result. I agree with some of the points Bill makes... not for justice and not revenge... yet I disagree that TRUTH is the reason we do this. Look at what the TRUTH movement did to cigarette smoking... we KNEW the truth about cigarettes... it became a matter of awareness. (and people KNOWING IT WILL KILL THEM still choose to smoke) With this movement there was something to UNDO... get people to stop smoking, to ban 2nd hand smoke, to protect ourselves and our children. Our expectation is that humanity itself will change... that those with the power will somehow become benevolent as opposed to having alterior motives in EVERY case. The TRUTH? Humanity, you never had it to begin with. Charles Bukowski Humanity - : the quality or state of being humane Definition of HUMANE 1: marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals

You don't have the first clue bobby. Do your research and get back to me when you have. Pot calling kettle black that's it buddy - defend your three little inches to the death...

That you can't comprehend physics, old man, is no surprise... you can't grasp simple math See if you can follow along MM, The TOWARDS motion is for a millisecond as the bigger heavier BAT overcomes the force and moves the ball.. What happens when you try to hit that same ball on a tee with a feather? the ball overcomes the force of the feather and doesn't move... In our real world example... when the bullet hits JFK in the right temple the skull resists yet is overcome by the force of the bullet and moves in the opposite direction... just like hitting the ball on a tee. The CAUSE of the forward movement is not a shot from behind... but a shot from the front. And then there's that little matter of the fraudulent physical evidence, as I posted... the xrays do not match the photos and for good reason... the photos were taken before they did anything to the head... the xrays, after. ============ When the bat hits the ball, it exerts some force on the ball. However, does this force account for the distance the ball travels? Let's think about it. Just imagine a home run hitter like Babe Ruth hitting a stationary ball. How far do you think will it go? Will it go more than four hundred feet? Probably not. While the kinetic energy transferred from the bat to the ball accounts for some of the energy of the ball, it does not account for all. So where is this mysterious energy coming from? The answer is conservation of momentum. What is momentum? Momentum is a vector describing a "quantity of motion" or in mathematical terms p (momentum) = mass * velocity. I just said that momentum is conserved (almost, read more to find out why) but how do I know that? I know that because of Newton's 2nd law: F=ma (Force equals mass times acceleration). As was explained in the position page, acceleration is dv/dt, which is the change in the velocity (dv) divided by the change in time (dt). "Change in velocity?" you ask? Well, the change velocity (dv) is the difference between the current value and the last value of the velocity. For our purposes, we can say that dv=vf-vi, or, the change in velocity is equal to the final velocity minus the initial velocity. We also know that in a system with no external forces, the total force, F, is zero. This is because if you push against a wall, that wall pushes back against you with the same amount of force. So, assuming there are no external forces and plugging dv/dt for a into F=ma: F = m dv/dt = 0 Multiply both sides by dt m dv = 0 Now plug in vf-vi for dv m vf - m vi = 0 the mass times the final velocity minus the mass times the initial velocity equals zero From that last equation, it tells us that for the same change in time (dt), the difference between the final momentum and the initial momentum always remains the same. Okay lets think about this more. Conservation of momentum means that harder you throw the harder the ball will bounce back at you. Just think about throwing a ball against a solid wall. The harder you throw the ball against the wall, the harder it bounces back. That is the reason it is easier to hit a home run on a fastball than on a curveball. Conservation of momentum also means that the bat can transfer some of its momentum to the ball. This is why it can be better to use a heavier bat if you can swing it just as fast. The momentum is the product of the mass and the velocity, so a heavier bat swung with the same speed as a lighter bat will have more momentum. Now, you may have noticed that I said momentum is "almost" conserved. Why isn't it if the equations say it should be? Well, momentum is always conserved in a closed system, but a baseball game in the real world is not a closed system. The bat and the ball are elastic materials. When the ball hits the bat, the ball will be squished to a certain degree. After few milli-seconds, it rebounds back. This contraction and rebound action is caused by the heat, or energy generated by friction, and some momentum is lost, or transferred elsewhere, in this action. There are also other factors that can use up energy, however, the concept of conservation of momentum is still relevant in predicting the range of a baseball.

Martin... The third law of physics is well understood... the skull MUST move to resist the frontal shot... a shot from behind carries with it much more baggage... Using the available evidence... please explain WHERE the shot entered the back of the head... WHERE it exited... HOW that trail of particles is left that high up... and WHY doesn't this xray show the bone as seen in the photos from the same time? A shot from the rear, from the 6th floor, exists his face... WHY do we not have a single Parkland witness say there is any damage to the face, front or top of the head and yet can have Boswell give us this "approximation" showing virtually the entire skull missing?

Logical? JFK was bending over to tie his shoes at z224? the right transverse process of the vertebrae DONT get in the way THE BULLET HAS TO TRAVEL UP to get from the wound to the throat even though is was shot from above This same bullet is supposed to turn right then down at a steeper angle than it was shot IF the bullet made it from back to front, the wounds suggest it simply fell out of the front of his neck Mr. SPECTER - We have been asked by the FBI that the missile not be handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton background. Now looking at that bullet, Exhibit 399, Doctor Humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through President Kennedy's head in Exhibit No. 388? Commander HUMES - I do not believe so, sir. Mr. SPECTER - And could that missile have made the wound on Governor Connally's right wrist? Commander HUMES - I think that that is most unlikely. May I expand on those two answers? Mr. SPECTER - Yes, please do. Commander HUMES - The X-rays made of the wound in the head of the late President showed fragmentations of the missile. Some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. Also we have X-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments. Also going to Exhibit 392, the report from Parkland Hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found: "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination." The reason I believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be in tact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. One of the main players in the conspiracy cannot even be convinced that the SBT was possible.... Can you offer us any evidence whereby a bullet RISES from back to front while entering JC on a DOWNWARD trajectory... or fromt right to left and still be in a position to hit JC? the WCR apologists have been trying this for 50 years.... and still can't do it... care to add anything to their failures?

the difference between's DVP's position being FLAWED and FRAUD. as of 12/9/63, 2 weeks and three days after the assassination... the USFBI, even though "leads are still being covered" can conclude: that the data developed strongly indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little advance planning. A. Assassin in Building As the motorcade was traveling through downtown Dallas on Elm Street about fifty yards west of the intersection with Houston Street, three shots rang out. Two bullets struck President Kennedy, and one wounded Governor Connally. The President, who slumped forward in the car, was rushed to Parkland Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 1:00 p.m. XI. Scope of Investigation Since the assassination of President Kennedy, more than 2,000 people have been interviewed by the FBI in the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald .... In addition, investigation has included a detailed examination and analysis of Oswald's personal effects and correspondence, and analyses of his finances and connections with other persons and organizations Investigation has (1) developed detailed background information concerning Oswald from his birth to his death; (2) strengthened the evidence that Oswald was the assassin of the President although no clear-cut motive has been established; and (3) despite numerous allegations which have been investigated, developed no sound evidence indicating that he received any financial assistance or that any other person, group, or foreign government inspired or directed the assassination or was cognizant of his plan to assassinate President Kennedy. On the contrary, the data developed strongly indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little advance planning. Also, investigation has disclosed no evidence that Oswald, while residing in Russia, was recruited by the Soviet intelligence services or received any assignment or training from the intelligence services. Further, investigation has developed no proof of any prior contact or association between Oswald and his murderer, Jack Leon Ruby. Leads are still being covered, and the FBI will continue to check out any additional allegations or information which come to its attention and I was sure the investigation was of the assassination of JFK.