David Josephs

Indeed Evan... one of DPD's finest was supposed to have made a list of everyone in the theater at the time... a list that has disappeared of course.... The story of the two Bentley's at the theater - neither called to testify before the commission http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/OverlookedTheaterWitness_Page2.html C. F. was driving south on Zangs Boulevard and had just turned east on West Jefferson Boulevard when a call came over the police radio saying that an unknown subject had entered the basement of the Oakland Public Library at the intersection of East Jefferson Boulevard and Marsalis Avenue. C. F. proceeded to the library along with several other squads that were available. The officers got out of their patrol cars, searched the building, and found out that the suspect in question was an employee of the library. All the officers re-entered their patrol cars and left the scene. C. F. began driving west on East Jefferson Boulevard. He was then sitting at a red light at the intersection of Zangs Boulevard and East Jefferson Boulevard. When the light turned green he traveled approximately 20 yards past the intersection when another police radio dispatch was broadcast that a suspect had entered the Texas Theater and was in the balcony. C. F. was almost directly in front of the Texas Theater at the time of this broadcast, and so he pulled into the first parking spot in front of the theater. He was the first squad to arrive there and as he got out of his car another arrived right after him. C. F. entered the front door of the theater with his shotgun and was told by a theater employee that the suspect had gone to the balcony. By this time there was another police officer beside him (name unrecalled) and they both went up the stairs to the balcony. As far as he could see there were 3 to 5 people in the balcony at that time, and he could hear voices saying turn up the house lights, but unfortunately the house lights were already on and it was still very difficult to see. At this time C. F.’s uncle Paul and another detective arrived in the balcony. Paul told C. F. to search everyone in the balcony and to get their names. Just as C. F. began to do this someone downstairs hollered, “The son of a bitch is downstairs!” All the officers turned and exited the balcony, ran down the stairs and turned left into the theater. As C. F. entered the seating area he could see an officer wrestling with a white male who had a pistol in his hand. As he approached Paul Bentley was off to his left. When they reached the two men who were fighting C. F. hit Lee Oswald in the face with a vertical butt stroke of his shotgun. Paul Bentley then punched Lee tearing some of the skin off Lee’s forehead with the Masonic ring that Paul wore on his hand. At this point several additional officers grabbed Lee and then C. F. heard someone shout, “I got his gun!” At this point the officers were able to get Lee under control and while they were handcuffing him C. F. pulled away from the scuffle. As Paul Bentley and other officers were removing the suspect from the front door of the theater C. F. went out with them. The officers then put the suspect in an unmarked police car and departed the scene. C. F. also left the scene, returned to the Southwest Substation, turned in the police car and shotgun, and returned home.

and FORD should know....

Can we PLEASE stop talking as if CE399 was ever in Dallas... it was not... unless someone can provide ANY EVIDENCE to that effect. CE399 was fired either into water or cotton and given to Frazier by Todd.... Where did TODD get it? Rowley cannot ID the bullet as the one he got from Johnson, Johnson cannot ID the bullet as the one he GAVE to Rowley... It was not at Parkland, it was NOT in Tomliinsons's hands, NOT with Wright, NOT with Johnson, NOT the one given to Rowley by Johnson... and NOT the bullet Rowley gives Todd.... yet IS the bullet Todd and Frazier's team initials... and IS the bullet that required no cleaning Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it? Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way. Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it? Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet. Are we also aware that the WCR tells us in order for fragments to have been left in JC at all, these fragments could ONLY come from the rear of the bullet..... which in turn means it would have to come in contact (the rear of the bullet) with these surfaces to have left anything... My understanding of the wrist injury is that that injury would actually cause the hand to clinch and stay clenched... not fly open... THAT is why JC holds his hat thru the entire thing... they had to pry it from his hands... I am sorry I don't have a source at my fingertips... but know I looked into it a while back... in most cases traumatic injury casues the contraction of muscles not the expansion or opening of them... On the flip side... has there been any corroboration that the injury would cause him to open his hand ?? Robert - I've checked the testimonies of Mr and Mrs, and the nurses who brought him in... no mention of the hat.... When the time finally arrives when the JFK community finally accepts that NONE OF THE EVIDENCE OFFERED IS ACCURATE we can stop pretending to fit the square peg in the round holes. one last time for those who missed it: this is much worse than the Katzen bach memo... this is AFTER they have already collected quite a lot of info... Needless to say, the FBI reports are taken basically verbatim and becomes the core of the WCR... and the SS report is just a joke. April 27, 1964 MEMORANDUM TO: J. Lee Rankin FROM: Norman Redlich <snip> We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin. I had always assumed that our final report would be accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the approximate location of the three shots. We certainly cannot prepare such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an occurrence which is physically possible. Our failure to do this will, in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same questions which have been raised by our examination of the films. If we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions by the investigatory methods available to us. I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.

They weren't... unless the pistol taken from Oswald was an automatic.... :-) Oswald was already at the Theater when Tippit was killed... Hill of course mutters the famous words 1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol. and let's not forget the other statement made at that same time: 1:34 221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers) Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt, and (. . . ?). Last seen running on the north side of the street from Patton, on Jefferson, on East Jefferson. And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand. Years later Hill tries to explain that because the shells where bunched together, as auto weapons eject the shell in the area of the shot, he concluded they were autos... yet the "shells at the scene" were already in a cigarette wrapper while the other shell(s) are found by the Davis'.... Just another example of BAIT & SWITCH DJ

too embarrassed to put the arrest time in the document? Here are MOST of the DPD Oswald arrest reports... wanna GUESS how many state he was in the balcony... yet the man arrested in on the main floor? Box 2 Folder 7 Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. R. Baggett. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/02/63. 00000632 1 page 02 07 001 0632-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by P. L. Bentley. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000636 2 pages 02 07 004 0636-001.gif 0636-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000644 2 pages 02 07 008 0644-001.gif 0644-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Bob K. Carroll. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/04/63. 00000649 2 pages 02 07 012 0649-001.gif 0649-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. L. Cunningham. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000654 2 pages 02 07 015 0654-001.gif 0654-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Ray Hawkins. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/02/63. 00000659 2 pages 02 07 018 0659-001.gif 0659-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Gerald L. Hill. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/05/63. 00000665 2 pages 02 07 022 0655-001.gif 0655-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by T. A. Hutson. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000669 2 pages 02 07 025 0669-001.gif 0669-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by K. E. Lyon. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/04/63. 00000675 1 page 02 07 028 0675-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by M. M. McDonald. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000680 2 pages 02 07 032 0680-001.gif 0680-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. E. Taylor. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000683 2 pages 02 07 035 0683-001.gif 0683-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by H. H. Stringer. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000687 2 pages 02 07 039 0687-001.gif 0687-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by J. B. Toney. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000693 2 pages 02 07 043 0693-001.gif 0693-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Charles T. Walker. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/02/63. 00000700 2 pages 02 07 047 0700-001.gif 0700-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by W. R. Westbrook. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Original), 12/03/63. 00000705 2 pages 02 07 050 0705-001.gif 0705-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Gerald L. Hill. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/05/63. 00000727 2 pages 02 07 054 0727-001.gif 0727-002.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. E. Taylor. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000729 1 page 02 07 055 0729-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Marvin A. Buhk. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000730 1 page 02 07 056 0730-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Ray Hawkins. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/02/63. 00000732 1 page 02 07 057 0732-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by W. R. Westbrook. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed and Annotated), 12/03/63. 00000734 1 page 02 07 058 0734-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by Bob K. Carroll. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/04/63. 00000736 1 page 02 07 059 0736-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by H. H. Stringer. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000738 1 page 02 07 060 0738-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by K. E. Lyon. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000740 1 page 02 07 061 0740-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by J. B. Toney. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000743 1 page 02 07 062 0743-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by M. M. McDonald. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald (Carbon copy, first page only.) This report differs from previous reports. It is single spaced whereas previous versions are double spaced, (Carbon Copy), 12/03/63. 00000746 1 page 02 07 063 0746-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. R. Baggett. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 1 page 02 07 064, 12/02/63. 00000748 0748-001.gif Report to Chief J. E. Curry, by E. L. Cunningham. Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, (Carbon Copy Signed), 12/03/63. 00000749 1 page 02 07 065 0749-001.gif

According to those that were there - that seems very unlikely.... He may have reached for it... and he may not have... depends on if you believe the DPD... From what I've seen, the DPD is not exactly the most reliable source of the TRUTH....

Mr. BALL - What were their names? Mr. McDONALD - Officer Hawkins, T. A. Hutson, and C. T. Walker. As one reads these testimonies one is struck by how he is simultaneously hitting McDonald, has his left wrist in handcuffs, is grabbing Walker's shirt, wrestling with 6 cops and STILL the gun stays firmly in his waistband and STILL he can free a hand to pull this gun out... Below these testimonies is SOME of the COE for that revolver... Hill gets the Carroll part correct yet he says he gave the weapon to Baker... except Baker makes no mention of this event ocurring http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/14/1458-005.gif is part of his narrative takin gus from 2:30 to 4:30pm with no mention of receiving the revolver or shells... while there is a CSS form with DAVENPORT, BARNES AND DHORITY involved... Where did the revolver Hill gave to Baker go ?? Mr. WALKER. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat. At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand. Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt? Mr. WALKER. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see. Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then? Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it. Mr. BELIN. Handle of what? Mr. WALKER. The revolver. Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there? Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. WALKER. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand. Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective. Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by ripping it with his hand. and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see severall hands on the gun. The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45 degree angle. I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammeriock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45 angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call. Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun. Mr. HUTSON. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm and put it around this person's throat. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. HUTSON. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was originally sitting in. At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand and held it. Mr. BELIN. Okay. Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this. Mr. BELIN. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, on the suspect's right hand? Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this person's right hand. Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre. Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald. Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer? Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise. Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard? Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was. Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it? Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so---I don't think I could say for sure. Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist? Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I said, they had gotten back into the seat and Officer Hutson had grabbed Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene. Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it? Mr. CARROLL. The pistol? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Where is Oswald? What are we looking at here?? That's not McDonald Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with both hands behind his back. Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald? Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did. Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist? Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist. Mr. BALL. Which one? Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist. If his left hand is empty and his right hand is a fist to hit McDonald - how is he holding a gun ??

Wonder if they also took a picture of THIS guy.... DJ

Yes indeed, TWO seperate incidences combined into one incriminating bit of evidence... (on a side note, you see how Baker mentions his affidavit three times in testimony with Dulles/Baker sidestepping it each time....) From this one statement / FBI report we establish 1) that Baker's affidavit is perjury or this report is... and was easily backdated (this is once again an uncorroborated, unsigned statement that could have been written up most any time) 2) that TRULY believes, while standing out in front of the TSBD, that the shots came from the RR yard (as did O. Campbell the man standing next to him) 3) that in the 2-3 minutes after the shooting the people who left the 4th floor via the stairs (Adams) testify to NO ONE coming down or up at that time... and that a woman with Adams sees Baker/Truly going past them and up the back stairs... Baker and Truly saw someone else... and like so many give conflicting statements that lead to perjury of one, the other or both. Also... if TRULY saw Oswald immediately after the shooting... and knows where he saw him last... why does he claim that OSWALD is the only employee that is not accounted for? We both know he could not have been aware of every TSBD employee's whereabouts at that moment (Givens had left as well just to name one), yet OSWALD was on TRULY's mind for some reason... His exchange about telling Fritz thru Lumpkin is CLASSIC and helps support the idea that the rifle was BROUGHT to the 6th floor and not found there.... Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle. Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building? Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found? Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz? Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor? Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor. Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you? Mr. TRULY. Yes. Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there? Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me. Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address? Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found? Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from---- Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only. Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. (AMAZING right? They are all standing around where the rifle is found picked up shell ejected etc... but it's not there) Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found? Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards. Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me? Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz. Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly. While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was. Mr. BALL. About that time? Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there. Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. (to be fair, Fritz did not get back to TSBD until 12:58... rifle was found 1:22...) Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so. Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. Mr. BALL. Immediately? Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time. Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin? Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes. Mr. BALL. Not over that? Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this." Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been. Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there? Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that. Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers. Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you? Mr. TRULY. That's right. Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker? Mr. TRULY. That's right. And that's the end of THAT... "If you saw OSWALD in the Lunchroom just a short while before, why did you tell DPD that he was the only one not there Mr Truly ??... you knew exactly where he was, or at least THOUGHT he was" but then it would have had to be a REAL investigation.... not so much DJ

David, Truly first told the basic second-floor lunchroom story late 11/22. It was, as you note, markedly different to the story told in Marrion Baker's affidavit given several hours earlier. And also markedly different to the first-floor Oswald-officer encounter everyone else had been talking about that day. Sean - can you please cite the source for that... WHO did he tell this too and HOW was it recorded... Between 3:15 and 4:15 is when Fritz's page 1 of 5 notes that Oswald: "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in" Whether that note was taken at that time or remembered later would dovetail to WHEN Truly makes his statement.... personnally I don't think this and the Baker/Truly story are connected... until THEY connect it. Either this "off" was Baker and Oswald fails to mention anything more about it... or it was NOT BAKER, and Oswald did say it yet we are talking about a different timeline and instance Baker and Truly IMO, did not encounter Oswald at all. thanks for the help DJ Tommy: "As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway" "I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me" To me, each landing is part of the stairs.... if you look at the 2nd floor diagram (CE497) we see there is only one way (other than the stairs) onto that landing and that's thru the vestibule door (I have yet to find a diagram of the 3rd or 4th floors - wonder why?) With this man's BACK TO HIM it is hard to imagine him coming down the stairs at that moment as the person would be FACE TO FACE with Baker after having passed Truly... So his affidavit yet again suggests that not only was it not Oswald, but that this person had been coming UP the stairs and was walking AWAY from the stairs when Baker sees "him"... for him to turn around. Which in turn would mean this person had just gone up the stairs seconds before Truly and Baker... which is why TRULY does not encounter him first. Now add this to that and yet another possibility arises... OSWALD WAS IN THE LUNCHROOM... yet Baker and Truly never stopped on the 2nd floor and only encountered a person walking from the stairs on the 3rd or 4th floor landing. 1) Sawyer goes to the 4th floor in the elevator after letting "this man" leave the elevator without being stopped or questioned... and then leaves the men he went up with - there on the 4th floor. 2) Maybe it's just me, yet this exchange with Mrs Reid SCREAMS to me that Oswald was still in that room when she leaves.... you can almost hear the fear in her voice... Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls? Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone. Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom? Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all. Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story?? Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc... So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably... How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter? and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells? TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964 The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964 Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24. Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. Mr. TRULY. That is right. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open? Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember. Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember? Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed. Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it? Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

(sigh) MOST Human beings will chuckle as they walk away from the 7-11 register with the extra $10 the clerk accidentily handed them... or how they got away with this or that, or got something over on someone or another... but it takes a special education to walk away with $100 MILLION while destroying the lives of others in the process... and it takes friends. the TRUTH is that regardless of which human "leaders" are given unlimited power, money and resources... MOST of them will find a way to influence their environment to squeeze more PROFIT and POWER, regardless the cost... Humans are a devious, good-intentioned yet woefully morally corrupt species who have been conditioned to KNOW AS TRUTH that profit is king... or you're a communist. What I believe we will never know are the DETAILS of the conspiracy... the TRUTH is as plain as the nose on our faces... at least how I see it. Cheers DJ "....those sons of bitches this graveyard above the ground one tombstone for the mess, I say: humanity, you never had it from the beginning" - Bukowski

Have to disagree with you on that last sentence Peter... otherwise Spot on. What I have found, in my research at least, is that the "best interests" we are talking about were not necessarily UNITED STATES best interests but in the best interest to the Bankers/Lawyers representing and bank-rolling multi-national big business interests... What I have found Peter is the direct line between LONDON and BOSTON/NY "interests" who, for example, bought BELL HELIPCOPTER via TEXTRON, First National of Boston, Sun Life of Canada, and Prudential Life after they decimated the US TEXTILE market of the North East.... All roads lead back to the Central Bank of England in turn to the Rothschild Political Banking empire, and finally thier US representation in Rockefeller/Morgan/Astor and many more. When ANY of these companies needed the money to procure these HUGE contracts... who do you supposed financed them? The other piece of that puzzle was the LAWYER/POLITICIAN revolving door of government. Roswell Gilpatrick (partner along with John McCloy at Cravath, Swain and Moore one of the oldes and by the most profitable Lawfirms in the WORLD) becomes Asst Sec of Defense and is instrumental with the help of General LANSDALE of the CIA in developing the Vietnam war strategy.... why do you suppose helicopters - which are virtually useless in jungle warfare and COST more than it HELPED - we FRONT and CENTER when LBJ's NSAM reversal takes hold.... One must ask WHO was a man like George William Miller working for and had alliances with.... BELL/TEXTRON is but one small example of the massive investment in the war in Vietnam these Bankers/Lawyers - with inside info - KNEW would pay huge dividends... Unless JFK stops the Cold War, cracked down on drug producing nations and pushes for World Peace.... and we know how THAT ended... We KNOW the TRUTH - what we will never do as a nation or a people is ACCEPT IT and understand it as human nature... There's nothing in the streets Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Are now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again No, no! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Meet the new boss Same as the old boss

Royce Skelton and Mrs Virgie Baker - Got to keep those names in memory as I KNEW there were a couple of people who said something about this... thanks Tommy... I don't want to hijack this thread so I will make the following comment... Does "Prayer man" seem a bit LARGE in the middle for Oswald? And I didn't think the sleeves were folded up so high.... the images I've seen all show the sleeves buttoned And I do have a question... the JACKET OSWALD GRABS AT BECKLEY... since the "M" jacket found was not HARVEY's... what happened to the jacket Roberts sees OSWALD zipping up as he leaves - Unless this too is an "assisted" statement and the man who left 1026 never had a jacket.... If this OTHER jacket was left in Irving - it disappearing at the hands of Marina/Ruth is not so far fetched. Have we considered the made up stories of Bledsoe, Whaley, McWatters and now Roberts to AID with the incriminating evidence against Oswald? If he did not have on a jacket when he left Roberts... the Tippit witnesses and found Jacket would have nothing to do with the man who came home that afternoon. DJ PS - Tommy, the Hickey gif starts right around 145 as you say

Exactly Bjorn.... So Sawyer and 2(?) men go to the 4th floor, first running into a man getting OFF the elevator at 12:34 that they neglect to bother to question, they "look around" for a couple minutes and SAWYER returns back down to the front... we are never sure of who went with Sawyer or what they did after Sawyer leaves them. This constitutes the start of the manhunt for the shooter....? While Baker/Truly are working their way to the roof.... We repeatedly hear how items from the 4th or 5th floors were brought to the 6th to be "found". Do you give any credibility to the notion that LEE and HARVEY were both in DP and LEE helped confuse those seeing "Oswald" and where, tocreate conflict with witness testimony and thereby discredit it. I only ask since if there was only one OSWALD in DP - explaining the conflicting sightings gets very difficult and needs to be attributed to witness mistakes... Wouldn't the notion of creating confusion with the witnesses be a KEY element of the conspiracy... as it has been all along with the various sightings and physical evidence of other Oswalds creating an evidence trail?

In Oswald's Diary, it speaks of the day Oswald meets Marina... March 17, 1961 "We walk I talk a little about myself and she talks alot about herself.... her name is Marina N Prosakoba" For an 18 year old woman who only speaks Russian, and a 21 year old man who supposedly does not speak Russian all that well if at all during that first year... I wonder which language these two are conversing in ??? And since we know OSWALD scored pretty well in his RUSSIAN USMC exam (given for what reason ??) I also wonder what the deal is with Peter Gregory:

CE994 is a translation of a 1967 account written in Russian by Marina... MARINA did not speak english OSWALD - it is said by those who knew him - did not speak ANY RUSSIAN the first year he was there OSWALD does not present himself as AMERICAN in any way to this young girl... (and OSWALD was VERY interested in the girls of Russia... having already asked one to marry him, and having "conquered" a number of others... yet somehow was never heard speaking Russian) What language do we have OSWALD speaking in to the Russia-only speaking Marina so that she thinks he's a Russian native with a specific accent? And it is not until "later in the evening" that she learns OSWALD is AMERICAN... It would appear that the ONLY person OSWALD spoke Russian to, was Marina.... or that the only person Marina spoke English to, was OSWALD... or was it Webster? http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0305b.htm p.5 Sasha was with his friends from the Institute . One of his friends introduced me to Lee, calling him Alik (all his friends, and the people with whom he worked, called him Alik, in that way rebaptising him with a Russian name, since the name Lee sounds too unusual in Russian) . But he did not say that Lee was an American, and when Lee invited me to dance, and we started to talk, I decided that he was from one of the Baltic countries, since he talked with an accent . But later that same evening I found out that Lee was an American . This is a note from OSWALD to ROBERT not long after he defects - 11-26-59 CE295 http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0423a.htm Where he states he would KILL anyone putting on a US uniform in defense of the US system... and that he would NEVER RETURN TO THE USA... Whereas in Marina's account we find: Later, when the dance was .over, we all went in a group to the house of the Yuriy whose mother had been in the United States . She turned out to be a very sympathetic woman who took a very objective approach to everything . I remember that she quarreled a little with Alik, since Alik defended America Lee spoke very favorably about his country and very interestingly I only go in this direction as it seems to support there being two very different stories being told by OSWALD... one to those outside of Russia and those inside.... It seems very strange that this man who supposedly teaches himself Russia via memoprization was fluent enough to fool Marina into thinking he was from a Baltic country and NOT an AMERICAN...

Excellent find Sean... Redlich is a gem and may be the only honest "lawyer" in the WC bunch.... I want to add something to your circle of review... Inspector J Herbert Sawyer who arrived at the TSBD not long after Baker ran in... (as he tells it not long after DECKER orders his men to investigate which, according to the transcripts, is 12:30) They never ask who this man was... or why he is on the elevator, whether he came down and left the elevator or went up with Sawyer (which I don't think makes sense) So who was riding the FRONT elevator down to the first floor at 12:37 ?? Just like the Overpass/RRyard the WC did not care. Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. Mr. BELIN. To the right? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Sawyer's testimony about WHAT he and his men do on the ??th floor is classic... These are the only other police in TSBD other than Baker at this point... right ?? If anyone is moving things from one floor to the other it would be these men. Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. The # of references to the 5th floor is overwhelming really.... the # of men who repeatedly place the evidence on the 5th and even 4th floors cannot be overlooked... Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth. Mr. BELIN. On the fifth? Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

No need to get your panties all in a bunch Tommy... If reading up on H&L and putting them into this threads context is too much for you... fine. "OSWALD" leaving the TSBD includes a discussion of either/both men. If you want to discuss the merits of H&L, then sure... another thread. But I still don't think it right to EXCLUDE them from the discussion... just cause you're not up to speed on them. Someone 5'11" 165lbs around 30 sounds much more like LEE than the small HARVEY. We can talk about Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of contexts and POVs... one does not supercede the other... You still have a white shirted OSWALD leaving past Mrs Reid... TWO Oswalds showing up at the theater and sightings of Oswald after he was arrested... ALL related to his leaving the TSBD at some point.... if you don't want to differentiate between H&L that's up to you... yet any conversation about what and where OSWALD did and went really must include consideration of H&L and its reality... You have anything specific you wanted to add that this discussion is keeping you from posting ??

Sorry... got to fix that.... and no Tommy... IMO H&L needs to be understood and accepted as fact just like conspiracy is. If we neglect to include H&L in the scenario, we get results that dont tell the entire story. If H&L stays off by itself, it becomes very hard to incorporate the ramifications into our analysis. We don't have discussions any longer as to whether there was a conspiracy or cover-up or whether Oswald was the assassin... these concepts are understood. I think it not only FAIR but NECESSARY that we include H&L as part of our accepted knowledge base. I'm doing a very in-depth analysis of the book... that H&L is still a debated topic is akin to saying the CIA did not bother Garrison... there is simply too much evidence to the contrary. So, what happens to this thread when we KNOW there is a H&L? It begins to make some sense... Witnesses in all locations are telling the truth when they claim to have seen Oswald... although it is not possible for him to be in 2 places or more, at once. TS White see an OSWALD in a car with Carl Mather's license plates.. AFTER the arrest at the theater. Others see Oswald leaving the TSBD in a variety of manners Oswald(s) meeting the description leave breadcrumbs in the months leading up to Nov. So Tommy... what I suggest is that you read up on the H&L threads as well as visit harveyandlee.net and we can hash it out on the H&L threads... but from what I've learned, H&L must be considered when offering ANY scenario of occurances in Dallas that day. DJ

Tommy - You make a good point by stating we really do not know the stimuli causing these movements..... (I wish I could find the testimony from a woman who sees sparks fly up behind and to the left of JFK's limo just after he turns...) Hickey is looking down (or in process) while JFK is looking to his left and does nto snap back to the right until afterward.... Hickey says nothing of this movement, in fact he says he looked over his RIGHT shoulder after the turn of the corner. Maybe this is the bullet that skips off toward Tague... or according to Max Holland, hits the light... all possibilities...

Hey there Bob... Z157 is where the film is spliced - again - .....and imo could represent the change from 16 to 48fps filming with the flip of a switch... (if not at 133) These are supposedly concurrent frames.... which we know is not possible... looks eeriely like the 301/2/3 Greer head turn which was proven to be impossible and from 50% to 80% faster than it should be... 50-80% is 4 to 6 more frames that should be there that are not... Getting back to the thread - I wonder how the addition and understanding of "Harvey and Lee" to this equation changes things.... The man Reid sees was not HARVEY... it is very possible that the Oswald being discussed is LEE and not the man in the brown shirt with the button down collar that was taken off and replaced in his room. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. Can we also try to rememebr that Oswald was a PATSY - he did not shoot anyone that day... A plan is not devised to create a perfect patsy and then allow that person to go around messing things up.... He gets from the TSBD to the Theater virtually undetected.. as planned. Whoever kills Tippit (LEE?) leads the police to the Theater 15-20 minutes AFTER Harvey is already there, proceeds to the balcony and is ultimately led out the back/alley door. But it would be a kick in the A$$ if we could place him on the landing or just inside the building (C.Arnold) between 12:25 and 12:35....

Here are Towner and Hughes around the "splices" Hughes was more WEST than Towner so the angles are off... and we are talking about a single frame versus 6-8 from Towner. Since HUGHES does not continue to where Zapruder starts this frame may have simply been a coincidence - that it's at exactly the same place is puzzling though. From the work I did with Chris Davidson, the removal of those TOWNER frames create the correct starting point and ending point for Towner and Zapruder to sync. Having watched some of Max Holland's LOST BULLET ... I found HICKEY looking at the road just after the limo makes this filmus interuptus turn.. and still believe a shot was fired prior to the Elm Tree.. we also see JFK's impossible head turn at 157... I alos seem to remember witnesses stating they saw a spark and dust kick up off the ground at that spot as well... just as the limo passed DJ

It is my opinion that when Wesley and Linnie are brought in to DPD they are TOLD what they need to say.... just like Bledsoe, Whaley and many others. With Wesley possible in ALOT of trouble for his rifle and involvement, I BELIEVE they did what they were told to to stay out of trouble. This particular morning they are going thru a process they NEVER went thru... Wesley always went over to pick Oswald up... yet THIS TIME he walks with a rifle in a bag over to Wesley's ??? Please.