David Josephs

My pleasure Lindsay... It is my contention that the "original" - 0183, and 0184, were identical copies and that by 9am Saturday the "original" film was no longer involved in the process. This new "original" was indeed at 18.3fps and created from both 0183/0184 in the possession of the CIA/SS that night. Zavada and the world only ever got to see the alteration. The meeting with McCone et al on Sat morn at the WH may have included more detail of the assassiantion from these films. ---- Regarding this crown jewel, CIA450 and their puzzlement over how LIFE could know when the first & second shot were.... Only z312/313 is universally accepted as the LAST SHOT. Everything hinges on that being correct... yet the speed legend related to the frames and locations on Elm do not work. What we see is a smooth running limo down Elm after what many saw as a turn that almost hit people on the north curb of Elm... Mr. TRULY. That is right. And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. If we accept that z313 is the last shot... using the math that took me quite a while to grasp shows why z133 is when we see the limo appear, what is so special about 161-166, why z224 is not mentioned as showing a shot, why Altgens tells us he was 15 feet from JFK at the time of the shot (z345, not z313), why Hudson on the steps tells us a shot was fired while the limo was right in front of him, and why/how these frames and time measurements work with the only other films that can be used to time sync Zapruder. As you continue to explore... the frame ratios, the distances and speeds all play a crucial part of the charade. Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct? Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street. Sitzman: Yes. Well, he stood up there, and he asked me to come up and stand behind him, 'cause when he takes the pictures looking through the telescopic lens, he might get dizzy, and he wanted me to stand behind him, so in case he got dizzy I could hold onto him. so I got up behind him, and we saw the motorcade turn the corner at Main onto Houston. He hadn't started taking the pictures there then, and we watched them as they came down Houston; and just as the motorcycles that were leading the parade came ... started ... came around the corner and started down the hill, he started taking the pictures then. He never stopped filming Lindsay... and the attached shows that the restart frame z133 does not have the telltale start-up signatures... it just STARTS Other than Towner, there is no film or photo of the limo rounding Elm/Houston. Her film speed was also arbitrary, AND we have the 6 frame splice in the midst of the turn. Nix and Muchmore pick up later on Elm. and if you search, we can also see that it is physically impossible for a man (Hill) to get from one vehicle to the next while both are supposedly traveling in excess of 8mph. He needs to jump down, run and catch the limo while both vehicles are moving... yet if you see what we've posted... he does so in amazingly few steps... The limo had slowed to a crawl of less than 2mph... maybe not stopped - although many say it did - and the testimony of Kellerman is revealing as to when Hill actually gets to the limo... Hill is on the limo when the car accelerated... the limo accelerated at the time the flurry of shots arrived.... the acceleration happens between the 2nd and 3rd shots (what happened to the flurry?). Was Hill already on the vechicle when z313, the "third" shot occurred? only if it happened further down the street, after the limo stopped and Hill had a chance to climb on.... Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time? Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes. Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate? Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot

1) First image... a simple overlay of the Altgens "recreation position" and Altgens... using the monolith as the anchor. They are not even close 2) If the SBT bullet hit at z223/224... how does LIFE and NPIC both tell us that a shot was not fired at z223/224? Which of the remaining 6 frames designated would the SBT bullet hit have occurred? Otherwise we have at least 2 seperate shots (as we all understand, save a few) 3) Finally we also know that the shot we understood as z313 was actually at 4+95 on the plat, not 4+65... 30 feet further down Elm. James... I for one would LOVE to know what you model says about when JC was hit.... DJ

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19073entry268637 (attachments at bottom)

You will please notice that NONE of the shots were seen to take place at z223... in the scenarios listed... WHEN/WHERE would the SBT be placed? Here is a composite of ALL the frames NPIC suggests may have contained a shot... Were they watching the same film?

Hey there Lindsay... I actually used the referenced timeline in compiling the following. In addition to some other sources not so entirely skewed toward WCR compliancy. You will notice that 6th floor's does not even mention the name MAX PHILIPS, a man who not only handled a film but tells us who has which film at the time. CD - 87 Folder 1 CO2 34030 11/22 9:55 To: Chief Rowley From: Max D. Phillips Subject: 8mm movie film showing President Kennedy being shot Enclosed is an 8mm movie film taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas Texas (RI8-6071) Mr.. Zapruder was photographing the President at the instant he was shot. According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder. Note: Disregard personnel scenes shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date. The third print is forwarded. Max D. Phillips Special Agent - PRS It also neglects to mention the two DPD men that take Zap around that afternoon or why they think they are on "special assignment" with Sorrells http://jfklancer.com...Chronology.html 2:21 pm DPD officer Osborn tells dispatcher that he and Officer J.B. Jones are on “special assignment” with Sorrels 17H 428, 480; 23H 885 2:45 pm Osborn & Jones drive Zapruder party to Kodak, arriving before 3 pm. Trask, 106; Wrone, 21; Zavada Report, Study 1 You would be hard pressed to find much info on these two. O.A. Jones, Capt... yes... yet there is NOTHING in the Dallas Archives Index attributed to these men. If anyone has anything from them describing thier activities with Zapruder... please post. http://www.jfk-info.com/thomp2.htm This is what I mean... the other timelines do not address 15-18 viewers of the film on 11/22. They have Phil Chamberlain checking it out with "Kodak employees". Has anyone bothered to find out what these 15-18 people saw? or who they were? 3:15 pm (est.) The processed film is shown to fifteen to eighteen people. To have copies made, Zapruder must take camera original to Jamieson Company. The graphic below is to be torn apart... if incorrect please say so... if missing someting of importance, the same. It is my contention that Zap filmed the motorcade scene in slow motion with the click of a switch on the camera thereby creating 4 times the number of frames per inch than standard and giving alterationists more than enough "info" to change without it affecting the "agreed upon" rate of 18.3. Now the crown jewel. imo. the NPIC analysis of frames that LIFE had already determined as containing shots.... and the question on page 1 of CIA450: "from the 8 .m film how do They know exact frames of 1st and 2nd shot?" How? they didn't know... and Chris D has helped me understand the math used to work backward to come to these frames... three shots... three frames... end of story. I hope this puts the subject, and my efforts therein, into perspective Cheers DJ

let me guess... "Since the SS copies have 0183 and they were a first gen copy of the z film original... the original 0183 on the motorcade portion not being there is simply a mystery that cannot be addressed with the evidence available" from his report: Films studied - Zapruder "out of the Camera" Original "an 8mm movie that HAD.... number 0183 in 1963" (see Section 3) Section 3 - "the records at NARA provide REASONABLE ASSURANCES of the treaceablility of copies SS 1 & 2" "Further, because we have not been able to view and compare the first gen Life Mag copy with the SS copies or Zap the original, our analysis is constrained and limited." Part 1a: PROCESSED BY KODAK: "No processing labratory edge print was seen on the motorcade section of the film we examined".... "did appear on the family scenes half" but are on the selected frames of CE885 taken from the original... Why is there even a question of authenticity at this point? the only section of the film in the archives that does not have the processing characteristics is the motorcade assassination sequence. What argument is there in FAVOR of this still being "original"? Am I once agian missing something here boys and girls? Zavada's analysis is of the altered film. End of story

I must be missing something Robin... what do 3-16mm B&W copies have to do with replacing the color original with an altered 0184? The SS copies are of the altered film... they HAVE to be - correct? and they replace the Jamison copies of what should be the complete 0183. There are a few mentions in the Z timeline where A FILM was shown both on 11/22 and 11/23... yet do you know if there has ever been anything said about what was SEEN during thiese showings other that Rather's? Like CE399, the zfilm in existance SEEMS to have come into being via the film Philips sends to Rowley Friday night. Those in the room with Zap Saturday morn to see the Zfilm... any of them be counted upon to tell the truth about what they saw? DJ

Bump.... In light of our understanding the zfilm we have was not the one that comes out of Z's camera... shouldn't we be concentrating our efforts on uncovering WHERE/HOW this film was changed? I can't discuss Salandria's minutia with Fetz any longer... he's so wrapped up in the micro detail he can't see straight. But I can ask the rest to address the FACT - via Zavada - that the extant Zfilm has no 0183 imprinted in the assassination sequence, only the SS copies of it. If Jamieson created copy 0184, which they'd have had to, THIS is the film used to create the duplicate "copies" at NPIC AFTER it was altered at Hawkeye. 0183 gets xferred to SS copies.... supposedly... yet is not on the original... Isn't that end of story here? Cheers DJ Can the theory be proven wrong?

Follow it thru for us then Jim... take us from this moment in time to the McIntyre photo. There are three lead cyclists... any one of them Chaney? Has he already passed them too? Chaney motors ahead, tells the lead car and is then asked to lead them to Parkland. THEN what does he do? Does he shoot ahead to lead as the Chief asks? Does he just stop... then start again thereby creating his position in McIntyre? Was he altered OUT of McIntyre? and all the other source films/photos? Can YOU explain please how Chaney goes from being next to the lead car to being last in the procession in the McIntyre photo? ================= Now, with regards to Doorman... I've already dissmissed your "probabilities" which is some of the best hocus-pocus you've offerred up. I also showed you multiple areas that DONT match... which, as I explain 4000 times already - makes the probability ZERO that is was Oswald. Not to mention if we trust Fritz' notes - which is what you used to conclude what you did - then he was also correct about the changing of his clothes... which renders you position moot. I am done Jim. We will always appreciate your tireless work... your commitment to exposing.... yet you are starting to sound like the naked emperor... insisting on the acknowledgement of the beauty of your clothes... while your a$$ remains hanging out for all to see.

Jim... Lammy doesn't even belong on the same planet in serious JFK discussion... much easier to simply ignore... talk about a shill. And I think we've established a LONG time ago that we are fighting the same battle.... You ask , "so WHEN was this supposaed to have happened" (Chaney) All that matters here Jim is that it happened AFTER you say it did and was not part of the Zfilm fakery... simple. That you seem above adminting a mistake in conclusion - the ability to lose a battle yet continue on winning the war - is disheartening. We have multiple sources that show it not possible to have happened in the SEQUENCE you attribute to it... but probably happened 15 seconds later... maybe even sooner than that. We both know in a state of emergency the brain slows time down by adding multi-layer memories.... Between the east of the overpass and the west, the limo catches the lead car... Chaney had yet to motor anywhere as we see in McIntyre. If you feel that CAPITOLS and repeated posting of the same info (like leaning in and yelling at someone who doesn't speak english as if it helps) will make your point... I think you are achieving the opposite... you are alienating those who have fought beside you for many many years.... Zavada's own report clues us in on the fakery. The only section of the "original" that does not have the idenitfying ORIGINAL MARKINGS is the assassination sequence. How much more plain can it be... and he was PROVING its originality. Let alone the amount of blank space as Horne has shown. Let's try again Jim.... I KNOW the film in evidence is as unauthentic as the autopsy report. Rather than arguing the point... concede the stupidity of those like Lammy who spends most his day looking at himself and not giving a rat's A$$ about the case itself... AND MOVE ON. Unless it really is your whole purpose to degrade the work and efforts of others by associating the crudest and most incorrect conclusions with the JFK Conspiracy.. making our jobs that much more difficult.... We have to DISPROVE your vociferous rantings while agreeing with your conclusions... feels like a rock and hard place. Peace Jim... DJ Fair enough John... post a better source file if you have. My point is that it is a "pop version" for the entire frame, not just JFK's head. Anything done to the entire frame should produce the same kinds of effects as we see over JFK's head. I even posted Lammy's png-ginourmous version that shows quite plainly a SQUARE over JFK's head, not just some black on full contrast. Below. Can you explain why the Square is so "square" in this one section of the frame and why he avoids posting any other section of that frame for comparison? All I did was push the brightness and contrast... nothing else. Doesn't HIS black square give you any cause to be skeptical about that frame's original state? If this effect occurs with every instance of that depth of color, SHOW IT... or am I being unfair in my request? DJ

I posted this before Jim... and you ignored it then as well... From how badly you mangle the probabilities you presented to how easy it is to show the INCONSISTENCIES between Oswald and Doorman=Lovelady. Maybe stop screaming and acting surprised and DEAL with the images.

Yet on the other side of the FAKE coin is Fetzer's declaration about Chaney.... I submit we have definitive proof that Chaney did not do what he said he did until much later... well after McIntyre. Here is the limo/lead car and all others emerging from the underpass... the lilmo, as we see from Alt7, is a ways back from the lead car yet has already passed it coming out the other end. We have to agree that no more than a few seconds pass from Alt 7 and the frame of the Daniel film I post here on the left. I have always agred that the Z-film we see has been changed from its original state (try to remember that Zavada tells us the original does NOPT have the 0183 marking on it... the 0183 was determined to be the original since the SS copies have the 0183 on them. quote from top of 1a. page 6 : "No processing labratory edge print was seen on the motorcade section of the film we examined. The processing edge print: "PROCESSED BY KODAK (dot) D NOV 63 (month and year)" did appear on the family scenes half of the original roll as evidenced by being printed through onto the Secret Service copies" Later in 1b page 18 we get to the authenticity of 0183: ".... the perforated identification of (0183) was not seen, but should have been present at the end of the remining blank - unexposed balance of side two if standard handling practice had been followed. We do confirm the Zapruder "Out of the Camera" original was identified "0183" by noting the identification present as "printed through" onto both first generation SS copies made by Jamison film company and located adjeacent to the family scenes" IOW... since the SS copy has 0183, the original motorcade sequence that does NOT have 0183 must be from the same film as the Zappy family side.... Again, the ONLY PORTION that does not have the 0183 is the assassiantion sequence yet we are supposed to accept that since there are copies with 0183 printed thru the family side... and SHOULD be on the motorcade side... it is STILL the original out of the camera film... I'm not going to get into a discussion with Lammy over his silly misdirection tactics... he can continue and just play with himself.... I am,on the other hand, going to hope that Jim looks carefully at these images and has a bit of a reversal on his Chaney conclusion as being indiciative of Z-film fakery, when there are more than enough bits to conclude the Zfilm we now have is not the film that came out of ZAP'S camera.

Fair enough John... post a better source file if you have. My point is that it is a "pop version" for the entire frame, not just JFK's head. Anything done to the entire frame should produce the same kinds of effects as we see over JFK's head. I even posted Lammy's png-ginourmous version that shows quite plainly a SQUARE over JFK's head, not just some black on full contrast. Below. Can you explain why the Square is so "square" in this one section of the frame and why he avoids posting any other section of that frame for comparison? All I did was push the brightness and contrast... nothing else. Doesn't HIS black square give you any cause to be skeptical about that frame's original state? If this effect occurs with every instance of that depth of color, SHOW IT... or am I being unfair in my request? DJ

Misdirection again.... do you never stop? LOL This is not about the depth of black in one certain area... this is a simple questioni that you simply cannot answer. Using any entire frame version of z323 you like. and show us how the blacks and dark areas - ANYPLACE BUT THE BACK OF HIS HEAD can be manipulated to give the appearance that it extends beyond its source.... Don't want to use the attached below? Fine... use any source file you want... just get the effect to work ELSEWHERE in the frame.. Or go away defeated once again.

Love the way you misdirect... the ENTIRE frame is of the same origin. The ENTIRE FRAME should react the same way to changes in contrast.... So you dont address why it does not happen with all the other "shaded heads" and blacks in that frame.... and try to misdirect with "image quality" BS. Why are none of the other areas of that frame reacting to the changes in contrast/brightness the same way as the square hovering over JFK's head... Show the ENTIRE FRAME Lammy... make any other similar black area do the same thing.... with any image you want to use... I will post yet another full frame - take a look.... wut up wit dat...? all the other black areas stay in their respective places.... hmmmmm Finally... here's the png you posted... the GOOD one... with a little contrast and brightness... My goodness... does that look like a square over the back of his head that doesn't match the pixel structure of the info around it?

LOL.... Make the same CRUSH happen to Greer's head them Lammy.... It's in the same darkness and should be crushed out just like JFK's if the frame was untouched... Not a single other shadow in that frame behaves like the one covering JFK's head... It's cool though... we know you only come out when others are correct and you have nothing to say or do about it.... Now... throw a few insults, a couple of childish names, state yet another unsupported opinion and call it a day... That's all you ever seem up to the task for in EVERY instance... Prove me wrong old man.

Like a third grader with a sharpie One would expect to see ALL the blacks crushed and extending beyond their natural boarders, yet only the black square over JFK's head is doing so... THAT sqaure was not part of the original frame. Obvious to most with any sense and a pair of eyes.

Here are only the frames with this other Oswald look alike DJ It's a gif

It was also mentioned at DPF... here is what I think you/they are referring to, at the 13/14 second mark of the video?

btw - please let's remember he changed his clothes before going to the theater.... Can you think of a good reason to ditch a jacket which covers your body while you're hiding a gun in your waistband.. As opposed to putting the pistol in his jacket pocket.... DJ

I saw this and replied over at DPF.... While the images are too rough for an ID... there are a few signs that may help.. Looking at Ruby in Jones, he has a severe crossover when he walks, left foot to the right of the right foot... I think the "ruby" character in the film does the same thing. yet he does seem a bit tall for it to be Ruby... Regarding Oswald.... The similiarities are striking... yet this could not be the same person Whaley takes.... No second heavy blue/grey jacket Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there. Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket-- Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir. Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket. Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

* James Chaney (motorcycle patrolman on right rear of the Presidential limousine): “I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital and that Parkland was standing by.” Chief Curry instructs Chaney to take him to Parkland... and then Chaney rode up to the lead cycles to tell them the news... Jim... just point out Chaney in this photo for us... LEADING the way to Parkland after talking to Curry in that little white car... and gaining on the three lead cycles.... If he's not there... where is he?

Guess it dpends if you believe Z313 occurred where it did rather than 30 feet further down the street according to the WCR. Here is the driver's turn - the second turn - within a second of the headshot. the frame order is down then over The only way these sync is if we move that shot down to where Altgens and the WCR said it happened.. Station 4+95 as opposed to the plat legend's 4+65 feet. DJ btw - personally I don't think we can even know whether there was a hole or not. too many conflicting stories. Yet you don't destroy evidence if it's benign. and that windshiled was definitely destroyed and replaced with a duplicate.

Does this help?

Cliff... Kinda like DAVEY DOES DALLAS: The man swallows the WCR whole. - a must see.