David Josephs
-
Posts
6,150 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by David Josephs
-
-
Thanks Greg...
Cults? Zealots? Jihadists? Should we talk you back from the ledge?
You keep assuming all this has only one possible meaning' date=' when the reality is there are a number.[/color']
Seems to us that you are the only one promoting a SINGLE MEANING for each of these instances and will not hear anything more about any of the possibilities....
So now he DIDN'T GO to Taiwan because a FBI document says so?
WHEN did we begin taking FBI photocopies of documents, without original records to authenticate them, as examples of believeable evidence in this case Greg... I must have missed the memo....
Uncoroborrated FBI reports... seems we used a whole bunch of those to discredit the WCR since so many of these were simply made up out of thin air or altered to convey the exact OPPOSITE of what was said...
yet you feel warranted in using them as definitive authentication that Armstrong is wrong.? And that every Oswald sighting is without warrant?
(too many here to list yet how about we forget about the "sightings" and concentrate on the evidence being used.
Bottom line:I have produced the FBI reports saying what they say. If anyone wants to claim the FBI lied in those reports, then let them prove it. I have given the information as to how they can. Otherwise it just looks likes some people would prefer not to find out the facts and just go on believing whatever they want to believe.
As we lilke to say... you're the one useing the evidence - you be the one to authenticate it - All I see is you accepting the FBI reports at face value... as opposed to actually looking at Armstrong's evidence BEFORE you post...
I went back and reread the entire thread....
YOU seem to be saying that every sighting was not Oswald while you think our position is that every one was... we had a discussion about the Jiffy Mart Oswald... you like to say it was just some young kid and the clerk was doing his 15 mins of fame routine...
that is ONE POSSIBILITY... so is the possibility that it was someone looking alot like Oswald and using ID that said so.
You asked Kathy about the Mastoid and then go on to state fact - that you got from the FBI reports of his timeline ....... if you have somethng that shows he was said to have the mastoidectomy while being seen in Minsk - that is not an FBI documentbut an original Russian document after his "physical"... please post it... in the mean time it's just the same...
the FBI said so.
Kathy, can you answer this.. which one had Otitis Media?
Because the one who had a mastoidectomy at age 5 had it.
The one who was at YH had it.
The one who turned up in Family Court had it.
The one in the Marines had it.
The one who entered hospital in Minsk had it
In 1946 this record would indicate that this Oswald was 7 years and 4 months old... not 5.
Not everything you write is just off the top of your head Greg... but in this thread you seem not to have checked much of anything first...
Do you have any other coroborration? or is it just more of the FBI telling us what THEIR OSWALD's history is. Same as the evidence for this mastoidectomy in Family Court, the Marines and Minsk? All FBI uncoroborrated documents?
I looked at the links for the January story... FBI SAID January said... FBI SAID that January concluded, commented, reiterated.... but JANUARY did not read and sign this report as an accurate representation of what he said now did he?
Was he called before the WC to tell his story or at least substantiate what was written that he said? Nope
I'm not going to go item by item thru all your posts Greg... yet so much of what you have relied upon to refute Armstrong is either completely uncorobrrated FBI reports, the claim that it's all due to dyslexia/Aspergers, and that the Marine record is also incorrect.
Like so many things that point to CIA involvement and the dead Harvey's innocence, they are simply mistakes made by fallible humans... except they NEVER EVER fall in Oswald's favor...
The only mistakes ever made are if they point away from Harvey and directly to the CIA/SS/FBI...
No Greg... the FBI/Gov't is the unimpeachible source of accurate evidence in this case... kinda sounds like a cultist in your belief, no?
or just ask 1) Vincent Drain, 2) James Cadigan, and 3) Clint Hill cause THEY will help us understand the true nature of the Gov't's investigation...
1) the evidence has a clean Chain of Custody...
2) Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the document as we see it now exhibits extremely faint writing. Can you explain the reason for that?
Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this is due to treatment of the card for latent fingerprints by chemical process which bleaches and makes inks run.
Mr. EISENBERG. Was the document treated to restore the original color after it had been treated for fingerprints?
Mr. CADIGAN No; from looking at this, it has been desilvered, but it has not been completely desilvered since parts of the stains of the chemical treatment remain.
Mr. EISENBERG. When you first saw the document and made your examination, was the document in its original condition, that is, had it been treated yet for fingerprints?
Mr. CADIGAN. I never saw the original.
Mr. EISENBERG. You never saw the original?
Mr. CADIGAN. No; I had a Xerox copy of the original exhibit. I did not see this original exhibit.
Mr. EISENBERG. You said before you had examined this exhibit?
Mr. CADIGAN. To be more exact, I examined a Xerox copy of this exhibit.
3) Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head
-
But speaking of unrefuted... that would be 7 pages worth of posts here by me. Why do you think your fellow cultists are staying away in droves, Steve? They have abandoned you because they realize the L & H fantasy is over.
Not abandoned... no need for all of us - or just me for that matter - to get in Steve's way....
and CULTISTS... really? ok, whatever - a rose by any other name....
Just like the WCR supporters you've gone to discrediting a person's memory as the lynchpin to unravelling everything that follows...
There are REAL PEOPLE, with REAL MEMORIES of a Lee HARVEY and a LEE Harvey that do not match... in fact, the conflict with each other.
Records are incomplete... Witnesses have FBI stories to tell that sound eerily similiar to others who had "evidence" removed during
the investigation only to have PHOTCOPIES replacing Originals.
The photos show two different people identified as one...
If we are in a position as a CULT, to accept the horrific alteration of JFK's body between Dallas and DC - and at this point I find it virtually impossible to offer up a rebuttal to the evidence of Lifton and Horne that reconciles the wound at Parkland with the wound in DC - then we should be in a position to be open to most any possibility including the recruitment of Intelligence assets and the merging of a two lives to cover for one.
Then, when we add the ongiong inconsistencies of Marina, MO, and Robert when recalling Oswald's life history... the obvious tampering with evidence related to his history and the GOVERNMENT DENYING anything of the sort - I'm inclined to take another look...
So Greg... we see you are convinced of your position... so no more "and what abouts" in this thread...
But I for one am not done... thanks for the great discussion
DJ
-
I had always believed that those at the window would still be at the window during Dillard since it was so soon after the shots...
Dillard was a few seconds to 20-30 seconds after the last shots?
Jarman/Williams/Norman are still at the windows....
there are people standing at the 4th floor window 4 & 6 sets of windows from the East
and a man on the 3rd floor 2nd window from East
While this may not place the timing exactly - it definitely shows that Ms Adams, Styles, Dorman and Garner were gone from the window by Dillard's photo
Please also remember Sawyer's trip to the 4th floor a few minutes later... with two DPD men...
only to return a couple minutes later without the two men.
Part of the concentration on Oswald allowed a multitude of people to come and go from that building without any identification..
Infact, it seems the DPD went out of their way NOT to ID witnesses who provided the most important info..
Cheer
DJ
. -
Thanks, Don.
Re. the Rambler issue: not sure the coke plays much either way, given that Craig timestamps that incident to 12:40.
Doesn't the Coke come back into the picture with Baker recanting on the Coke story....?
He tries to claim that Oswald did NOT have a Coke in order to cut down on the timing, right?
Yet this flies in the face of Reid's testimony...
Does he leave with the bottle in his hands? There's no Coke in the Bus story or the Cab story...
I know others don't like the 2 Oswalds idea... but both being there, or in and around the area, at the same time would create some interesting post-assassination sighting stories... to help confuse things...
It makes sense to have a few look alikes leaving in different directions... reduces the credibility of each individual story...
One of those after thoughts... would have been interesting to have that Coke bottle and see if the prints matched the man they arrested at the theater....
DJ
-
Did I use "sine qua non"? In Latin it means," without which, not" or, "a necessary and sufficient condition for something to be true." I think you are right in this: it is pretty well established that two shots were fired almost simultaneoulsy after reports of a first shot. And Mike, I don't think "every single person" was involved in the conspiracy, only key people. Many people acting in good faith had no idea they were party to something sinister. Read Best Evidence and Lifton's inteviews with some of the Bethesda personnel, like Dennis David, James Jenkins, Jerrol Custer, Paul O'Connor, and John Stringer. Many of these were interviewed later in Law's In the Eye of History. Happy reading, Dan
It is all right there, recorded in the photographic record. A common trend for you and your followers is you do not use the photographic evidence. You should use it because it tells the story of what happened.
If you would start to look at the photographic evidence as important evidence in this case and not fabricated by some unknown conspirators then maybe we can begin to have a meeting of the minds.
Just as you want me to read Davids book I want you to invest some time in learning how to interpret the photographic evidence. It will not be a waste of time.
I would like to share with you, if possible, a pretty good copy of the Moorman photo. There is a strange blackening out in the area of Kennedy's neck and upper back. The right shoulder looks quite suspicious as well. If you would like, I can send it to you. It was this copy which began to make me suspicious of photographic alteration. Let me know if you are intersted. I have tried making an electronic copy, but the contrasts are lost and the problem areas not easily discerned.
Hey there Daniel...
For me, it is this frame z323, which shows the extent of the "blackening out" ... no other "black" area on this print does what the BOH black square does... the back of his jacket, Jackie's hair... etc...
Sure would like to see the 35mm Hollywood version... I've only read where it appeared to them that this and the other blackouts simply hovers over the film... that is extremely obvious..
Be nice to see those some day.
Cheers
DJ
-
Confirmation about Gloria:
Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? (again amazing how many times this man says the name Calvary and yet she is STILL not called)
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Ms. Calvary was NOT called to testify
and the DPD was actually telling people to go BACK TO THE BUILDING -
at approximately the same time the building is supposed to be secured...
SHELLEY was Oswald's "supervisor" and if SHELLEY goes up with the police - would that be him going with SAWYER and the two other cops?
(I know it says "his superintendent" as told by Holmes... but that COULD have been Shelley, no?
Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me.
Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?
Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was.
Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not?
Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the sixth floor quickly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor.
I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.
OK, so we have Dougherty going back to work within 2 minutes of the final shots
This is either Sawyer or an uniformed person left on the 4th floor... with B&T coming back down we are looking at approx 12:36/7
This man with credentials in the building, on the 5th floor immediately after the shots, telling Mr. D here to go find Truly... (yet another unaccounted for person, in the building, moving between the 4th, 5th and 6th floors)...
Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody---there wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all---it was just myself.
So either we're going to start the "Men added to the windows in Powell and Dillard" thread (kidding) or Mr. D here just did not see them on the other side of the floor...
he was only by the west elevator on the opposite side of the 5th floor.
So not only do we have this "FBI" man talking to Dougherty, but our three black men say nothing of Dougherty or a "FBI" man.
As JD leaves the 5th floor our three men encounter this FBI man?
Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman-were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position.
Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down.
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him.
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left.
Mr. BALL. How did you go down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?
Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window.
Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?
Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner. Did you run down stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.
So if we are to believe this man... Vickie et al were still at the window MUCH LATER than they say... might not / COULD not have heard anyone moving on the stairs across the entire floor from them
and would naturally have not run into Oswald, Baker or Truly as their activity happens earlier.
Sorry if my post tries to take a number of different points and combine them into a picture to describe the scene in those first few minutes... This is why I;ve been working on a spreadsheet timeline that allows us to track time along one axis and people along the other... if/when I can get it done it will be my gift to the Forum - a searchable, minute by minute account that SHOULD expose inconsistencies in stories, timelines and activities.
DJ
Hi Sean
Miles posted this on Duncan's forum.
Re; Elevator
click on image to read full size:
-
Hey there Sean... been pounding on the desk for a while about THAT MAN who Sawyer and his two buddies run into as they are going into the elevator.. we are not sure if this man is leaving the elevator or just in front of it, but it seems to suggest that this man is getting off the elevator...
or... "this man" could be referring back to the man who he believed worked at the building... if this was Truly then the entire Baker/Truly episode is a charade... never happened, at least not as told.
I mentioned in a different thread that Fritz, in his 3:15pm 11/22 interview notes wrote "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in" and this can either be recorded at the time of the questioning or days later...
If at the time, then we can see the development of the 2nd floor story as Greg's thread eludes to.... if later, then this is added in to lend credibility to the revised story...
The most truthful of events appears to be Baker's affidavit yet how can Truly be talking with Sawyer unless it is AFTER he has gone up and come down with Baker...
Sawyer is not back at the front of the TSBD until after 12:37... Baker and Truly went up to the 7th and back down by then... one would assume..
That Oswald would be on the first floor at 12:32 is no big stretch... as he was not above the 2nd floor after 11:50...
Something I had not noticed before... yet I believe was mentioned in some of the parallel threads - the DPD and sheriff keep trying to claim that the building was closed off... no one leaving or entering
when I think we see repeatedly that MANY employees of the TSBD we TOLD to return to the building by DPD.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?
Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.
Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr. BALL - I am?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.
Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---
Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr. BALL - That's south.
Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?
Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
more proof that going into and out of the TSBD before 1pm that day was not difficult...
Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?
Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. REID. Two minutes.
Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?
Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.
Sawyer is not into the TSBD until 12:34 at the earliest and goes directly to the front elevator when he sees THIS MAN
If Reid sees Oswald heading EAST and then goes down to the first floor...
and Sawyer is entering the TSBD a minute or two later... it's hard to imagine them not crossing paths... especially with others seeing Oswald by/in that storage closet...
If the entire Coke episode is real - according to Reid, Truly, Baker and Fritz's notes of what Oswald said - why doesn't Baker's affidavit tell the correct story?
As Greg says, once it was discovered Oswald was on the 2nd floor and has bought a coke and was NOT seen by Baker/Truly... the story had to change...
-
Great stuff Greg....
The 4th & 5th floors are very interesting places...
Seems the passenger elevator at the front of the TSBD only went as high as the 4th floor...
This is the elevator Sawyer and two officers take sometime between 12:34 and 12:37
By this point then Baker and Truly have been in, up and down. People have been going in and out of the front and back doors....
Fake SS agents are encountered at the back door and a black man who had been there claims not to have seen anyone leave in direect conflict with other testimonies..
Greg - are you also saying that Fritz made up Oswald's response when he noted "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in... to 1st floor had lunch"
and this happens in the first page of notes... from the 3:15 11/22 questioning
While at the same time Baker is writing up his affidavit.... how is it possible to have THAT affidavit in their hands and question him as if nothing was in conflict with it?
(By not showing or stating what was in the affidavit I assume)
Since these affidavits would not see the light of day (like the Boone and Weitzman ones) the story for the WC would be the story... Fritz wrote these notes from memory or at the time of the questioning? If from memory, the 2nd floor comment makes sense...
Representative BOGGS -Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit.
Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station?
Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say.
Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later
Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.
(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker
Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.
Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.
Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with Mr. Truly, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee?
Mr. BAKER - Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs
As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket
Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.
Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.
Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.
Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?
Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.
Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?
Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
Mr. BELIN. What did you see?
Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly.
Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
All right.
You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497.
What did you see or hear the officer say or do?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.
The avoidance of the entire episode is quite amazing really.... while this one thing is but a single detail it represents the entire case... The WC has in its hands evidence that directly conflicts with the testimony... and never bothers to investigate further... just like Sawyer and THIS MAN...
Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.
And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.
Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. (DJ: He later says the elevator was there when they got there... yet they still run into THIS MAN getting off the elevator with literally NO FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS related to who that was and why Sawyer did not stop or recognize him)
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.
Mr. BELIN. To the right?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.
Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.
Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?
Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?
Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?
Mr. SAWYER. No.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.
Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.
Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?
Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered. DJ: This I believe was Haygood
Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?
Mr. SAWYER. I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?
Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?
Mr. SAWYER. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?
Mr. SAWYER. Officers.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?
Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?
Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.
Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?
Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.
Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.
Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?
Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?
Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.
Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?
Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.
Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.
Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not?
Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?
Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?
Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."
Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.
Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."
Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.
Mr. BELIN. What happened?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.
Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no.
Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to thereat all?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be
Mr. BELIN. To the back door?
Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name?
Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all.
Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth.
Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.
Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found?
Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor though. It was just a big open floor. DJ: Does that sound more like the 5th or 6th floor? When we look at thephotos of the 6th floor, there are boxes everywhere.... http://www.history-m...Vol17_0115b.htm this is a diagram of the 5th floor... and photos of the 5th floor... http://www.history-m...Vol17_0116b.htm more open or less than the 6th... and would anyone describe the spots where the rifle and shells were found as "OPEN" ?
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor?
Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.
Not sure that Harkness or Haygood went with Sawyer as their testimony does not give that impression - if it was neither of these men... WHO went to the 4th floor with Sawyer and who remained in the building while another went to the rear of the building?
Mr. BELIN - When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.
Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?
Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.
Mr. BELIN - You don't know?
Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.
Mr. BELIN - Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.
Mr. BELIN - Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?
Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.
Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?
Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.
-
Nice post Daniel....
There is also the TIMES we are discussing... a TIME when the first assumption was NOT that the governement or police or FBI was lying... covering anything up...
THEY were the good guys, the guys to trust... and the "plan" used this fact against the witnesses....
When men in dark suits and glasses flash Secret Service credientials - both on the GK and at the back of the TSBD - it is not questioned...
We have the benefit now of YEARS being indoctrinated to the evils of the governement and its employees...
At that time, when you were told you only heard three shots and only from the TSBD... THEY must be right since THEY are the government and THEY would never lie to us...
Some of the fooled spoke out sooner - and were dealt with.. some spoke out later.... and were also dealt with....
When a boulder is pushed down a hill - it is simply not correct to state that each pebble it encounters along its journey down the mountain is part of the reason the boulder is moving to being with....
they are simply spots along the way where the boulder comes into contact with the outside world...
As DSL so eloquently puts it... the case is NOT about who put the bullets in, but who made sure they were taken out.
DJ
-
Okay Greg...
You keep offering CIA and FBI documents that are presented as "this was told to me by" and then presented as FACT thru the HSCA and WCR....
On the other hand you have Armstrong putting words into people's mouths in much the same way...
Not entirely sure who is being either more devious or more genuine...
Your arguments are valid. Sadly, even after studying Armstrong's work, visualzing the timelines and really understanding the minutia is an ongoing process for me,
one that I am working on as best I can.
btw - as YOU are the one helping me to see the "other" side of this.. I am inclined to take an even closer and more studied look at the info.... so thanks.....
I do not see where I am "but what about" anything, rather I'm taking what you are saying about specific people and locations, "bad memories, possibly mistaken, etc..." and trying to provide the substantiation for their statements and an explanation regarding your rebuttals.
I believe I too go to the nth degree to provide the documentation and reasoning behind my posts... in most every area and with most everyone
Of course Armstrong could be wrong...
At the same time he could be right... and before I chuck it all away - even WITH your excellent points - I'd like to do a bit more work.
So, no more to bother you.... I need to construct a concurrent timeline based on the book and documents and see for myself...
and btw, thanks for your nth degree... I've learned more from you and a small handful of others here than I could anywhere else - and it's much appreciated.
DJ
-
Or sometime very soon afterward... yet that seems VERY difficult to explain...
Right up until the casket was closed wasn't Jackie right there? Taking the wedding ring and such...
What really bothers me here though is the original post... I went to my copy of Manchester and read the part about Vernon...
If we are to believe him, JFK has to arrive at Bethesda, in the BRONZE casket, with NUMEROUS rubber shrouds over his head...
It also states that Vernon was mostly concerned with protecting the green velvet in the coffin... that the largest piece of rubber was under the plastic and on top of the velvet... with what he says are 7 layers between JFK and velvet.
There is not a single Bethesda witness of ANY of the casket deliveries who see any evidence of this.... if anything, the 8pm unveiling would have these 7 layers....
Does the removal of all this rubber help support the empty casket, wrapped in sheets stories?
-
On Sept 14, 1958 HARVEY Oswald was sent from Atsugi to Ping Tung Taiwan.. not to return until Oct 6th
On Sept 16, Dr. Paul Deranian diagnosis Oswald with gonorrhea:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/vd.htm (I only use this link to show that Deranian was indeed the doctor at ATSUGI JAPAN.... not on the ship or in Taiwan.)
One such misconception that collapses under further inspection is that Oswald's contracting of gonorrhea is conclusively linked to his activities as an intelligence operative. The cause of the speculation can be found among the Warren Commission's reproduction of Oswald's medical file during his service in the Marines from 1956-59.(2) The reason for this speculation is a diagnosis by Captain Paul Deranian, the senior medical officer at Atsugi, that Oswald contracted "Urethritis, Acute, due to gonococcus #0303." The Captain noted its origin as being "In line of duty, not due to own misconduct." While on the surface this notation might seem odd, especially to those not acquainted with military regulations and procedures involving law and medicine, there is no mystery surrounding this determination.
http://www.history-m..._Donabedian.pdf
Donadebian was called in by the WCR to explain the records....
Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one.
The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea-on the 16th.
Problem here Greg... HARVEY OSWALD left for Taiwan two days before. as the unit diaries say...
All the while that HARVEY is in Taiwan, LEE is still in ATSUGI getting treated for STDs.
I'm all ears over how you reconcile this Greg.... thanks
DJ
and thanks Steven... much appreciated.
-
btw - you will notice that ALL the links for 54-55 describe Oswald as the small, quiet, loner, that was HARVEY...
Betwewen that photo of LEE in the classroom in the Bronx zoo composite, 1952/3, and the 1956 Marine photo all there is of LEE is the photo of his missing tooth in the classroom which John feels could be Robert.
Look at what we have for LEE between 55 and 59.... horribly out of focus, potential composites versus the clear images of HARVEY.
LEE can be traced after 55/56 and the contrast between the MARINE and the little commie-loving troublemaker Harvey is easily seen and extensively documented....
DJ
-
Thanks for taking the time and effort Greg...
I would not call McBride the FOUNDATION as much as the launching point... that would be akin to saying if we can prove Oswald ordered the rifle, he committed the crime...
those two things do not necessitate each other... beyond McBride there is so much to support H&L.... but all in due time
At a quick glance I see most of your info is focused on 54-55 and not the 52-53, 53-54 school years...
As I go to each of those links you offered I find them discussing 54-55.... we are focused on the 53/54 school year here... you will not find many witnesses after 1955 who will tell you anything about LEE... Harvey on the other hand has become the center of attention.
Myra Darouse - Beauregard
Myra "claimed" to be Oswald's home teacher because she was. Just not in any part of 1953 as she apparently thought some 40 years later.
http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=34
At this link of yours there is no mention of school years at all... and she confirms the smallness of the student she knew as Harvey
Here is the NY PS#44 school record for LEE - between MAY and SEPT 1953 he grew slightly and was still 115lbs - not the small, quiet little boy Darouse - and a number of other people who knew Harvey and not Lee - described him as... the psychiatrist in NY (Milton KURIAN, march 1953) also described him as very small and undernourished while dealing with his truancy problems... nothing like the well adjusted, and well developed LEE
Are you going to claim that from Jan 53 thru May 53 he grew 8 inches? and then when the photo at the Bronx zoo is taken that summer he shrinks back down again? The boy in the Bronx zoo photo is NOT 5'4" and 115... in fact, LEE would have grown even more by the summer... Harvey, the boy in that photo was NOT recognized by John.. while the other boy was...
The official timeline has Oswald moving to Collinswood St, Fort Worth in July, 1956...
Greg, the problem is WITH the official timeline...
I will take your post and look thru the links and address your points - which I can always count on to be well presented and well supported.... yet starting with that link to Darouse and you telling me there is something there that tells us the YEARS involved - when there is no mention of timeframe at all is a bit of a surprise. I'd like to get back to 1952/53 as this is the key period of transition -
Here is just a little piece of why I do not trust what the FBI writes without signature of authentication - and then I will address 52/53 and more of your post.
when we look around the Darouse pages in that file you linked me to, we see the FBI saying BREEDLOVE said that he too did not "recall" Oswald while at Beauregard
Yet at the same time we have Lee Harvey Oswald's 8th grade report card for Industrial Arts taught by FRED BREEDLOVE, with his signature... showing Lee in his class...
guess it was convenient for the FBI to state that Breedlove did not know him... especially during the 53/54 year when LEE was in HR 303 and Harvey was with Darouse elsewhere.
Greg, Since when do FBI reports of what he said, she said, they said, and what we chose to write down ever account for evidence in this case?
and so far, each of the links has to do with 54-55.... 53/54 is what wer are discussing, having statements from people about the 54/55 year is of no consquence...
More soon.
Cheers
DJ
btw - while I am no where near the researcher others are, I do believe I have a good grasp of the material. I try not to JUDGE the theory before I investigate it.
You seem to simply not like the H&L idea and have focused all your efforts on McBride... when the keys to this mystery are to be found in total...
-
What YOU consider is of no consequence to anyone here Mikey...
You can IGNORE everyone if you like...
no one is going to put up with your repeated reluctance to LEARN SOMETHING HERE as opposed to climbing up your little ant hill and proclaiming yourself "King"
So no more worries Mikey... like Paul May and Brian Walker before you... stoopid is as stoopid does....
You want to get your jollies sounding ignorant and offering uninformed opinions - have at it.
Another fly by night xxxxx in the process of losing steam...
bu-bye now...
-
replies in bold
I am not being critical of the man David Lifton. I am being critical of his theories as I have come to know them on this forum.
Mike,
Forming your opinions from what you have found out on this, or any other forum, is no way to understand - let alone criticise - any researcher's work and ideas. Opinions generated on the Internet tend to be watered down versions of the original. If you want to be critical of David Lifton, at least do him the curtesy of reading his work. That way you might at least understand what it is he is saying.
James
Again, I am not critical of David Lifton. I think he is a very nice man. I am critical of his theories that he has stated in the forum. That is all.
How can one be critical of "his theories" when you haven't taken the time to read and understand them yet?
I am happy that he is willing to engage with us in the forum.
Not as long as you keep talking out of your A$$ Mike... those here have been at it for 10, 20, 30 almost 50 years!! What he exposes are suppressed, historical FACTS related to the movement and alteration of JFK's body... refute this Mike... and please try not to forget that it was
Kellerman, Greer, Sibert & O'Neill who claim to WHEEL JFK into the morgue at 7:17.
and the MDW (Joint Casket Bearer Team) officially carries in the casket at 8pm... first incision at 8:15... Finck called at 7:30 after xrays and photos have already started being taken
When you can reconcile these three bits of FACT into a coherent theory, let us know... DSL did it in 1981 after 15 years of work. And you've done what, exactly?
My theory of the case is based on the validity of the photographic evidence. His theory of the case requires that photographic evidence to have been fabricated.
So why not go about AUTHENTICATING / VALIDATING this evidence? Your complete inability to grasp what DSL has offered is staggering...
As I have stated before, I have read very few books on the JFK assassination. I did not want to be influenced by any opinions of the case stated by other authors. I wanted to study the evidence and come up with my own opinion. I was very surprised to find that there was a book out there that had a somewhat similar interpretation.( I have not read that book either)
"study the evidence" - from where Mike? From which book or set of books will you be finding and authenticating this "evidence"
The WCR? HSCA? ARRB? Rush to Judgement? False Mystery? Accessories After the Fact? Reclaiming History? Case Closed? With Malice? Death of A President?
The Weisberg books, Harvey & Lee, Oswald and the CIA, LBJ: Mastermind, Who Kiled JFK?, Six Seconds in Dallas......
Where exactly are you going to find the evidence YOU LIKE?
When you read my opinion you can be sure it is my opinion, uninfluenced by the opinion of the author of any other book.
But like a$$holes, everyone has an opinion.... from what do you base this opinion Mike? What gives your opinion any value to others when you choose not to LEARN about the assassination?
This approach has worked well. I have been able to identify several important errors. The severe cropping of the Towner #3 photo and the incorrect chronological ordering of that photo are two important examples.
YOU were able to ID these errors?
Tell us Mike... what EXACTLY is your opinion related to the assassination and from where do you derive it?
Whose shoulders do you stand upon to come to your conclusions?
-
I didn't actually think the swap happened at Parkland... just a thought based on the sequence...
But there is the quick drive to Love Field... I didn't realize so many went with the ambulance... I could have sworn that it was only Kellerman who drove off...
DJ
http://www.jfk-online.com/landis.html
At approximately 2:00 pm the President's body was wheeled from the hospital in a coffin into an ambulance. Special Agent Andrew Berger drove the ambulance; ASAIC Kellerman and ATSAIC Stout were in the front seat. Mrs. Kennedy, Admiral Burkley, and Agent Hill rode in the rear of the ambulance with the President's body.
I rode in the Follow-up car behind the ambulance which departed the hospital at 2:04 pm.
At 2:14 pm, the President's body arrived at Love Field Airport and several Secret Service agents immediately carried it on board U.S. Air Force No. One via the rear door. I followed on board behind Mrs. Kennedy and then moved to the forward section of the plane. I witnessed the swearing in of President Johnson at 2:39 pm in the center compartment on board Air Force #1, and at 2:47 pm departed Love Field Airport, Dallas, Texas, via Air Force No. One, with Mrs. Kennedy and the body of the late President Kennedy.
Josh, my understanding was that there was luggage problems between AF-1 and AF-2... the wait for the judge to swear LBJ in...
and the FACT that everyone attnded the wearing in... even those who said the casket was never left alone...
I do believe that JFK was offloaded from the front right of the plane and flown via helicopter to ???
DJ
-
Greg,
I appreciate what you are doing and would like to have you address some of the earlier days for Lee/Harvey
A Ms Myra Derouse CLAIMS to have been Harvey's Home room teacher at Beauregard in the 53-54 school year...
She describes him as a small (4'6" at most) scrawny, undernourished kid... who prefered to be called Harvey.
She drove him home, heard about the mother who worked in a bar...
The homeroom was located in the basement cafeteria of the high school...
School records for PS44 in NYC for September 1953 have Oswald listed at 64 inches (5'4") and 115lbs.... (the boy on the left in the photo below)
The boy on the right, which Robert says is LEE and that he took the picture, is in reality Harvey... and I show you how Robert messes up in testimony below.
School records from Beauregard have Lee Harvey in homeroom 303 with a different PE teacher entirely.
Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, I take it your brother Lee was attending Arlington Heights High School? That would be 1952?
Mr. OSWALD. Just a minute, please.
In 1952 Lee was 13 years old. He would be attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School then.
Mr. JENNER. I see. For the school year 1951-52?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. And as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. JENNER. As soon as he finished the sixth year at Ridglea Elementary School, he entered W. C. Stripling High School, as a seventh grader?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir--junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the condition that you described as to Lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother John was in the Coast Guard, continued, I take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending W. C. Stripling Junior High School?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Stripling JR High is in Fort Worth
Mr. JENNER. You were attending--you were then 15. You were now attending high school, I assume.
Mr. OSWALD. Junior high school.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. OSWALD. Fort Worth, W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Mr. DULLES. What was the name of that?
Mr. OSWALD. W. C. Stripling Junior High School.
Now, Lee and the MO moved to NYC in 1948...
HARVEY went to PS#117 in 1952, was barely in class and had problems with the law and his truancy
at PS#44 in 1953, the attendance suddenly changes... and the ongoing court appearances for HARVEY'S behavior
while LEE, who arrived in NYC with his mother, is a model student at PS#44
In 1952, Lee was in NYC and not Fort Worth... In the Summer of 1953, Harvey is in Stanley, ND.
Can't be in Ft Worth, NYC and NOLA all at the same times... and as you can see here... in 1952 he WAS in Ft Worth... but they move to NYC and as I show below ROBERT not only knows this but visits them in NYC in 1952 AFTER school has already started.
the boy with 47 days absent was HARVEY... he transfers to PS#44 on 1/16/53 yet does not being records until 3/23/53
ROBERT visited NYC in the summer of 1953 when Harvey was between 7th and 8th grades
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.
Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.
Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?
Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address.
Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding Lee's attendance or nonattendance in school?
Mr. OSWALD. Nothing on that, sir. This was in the summer time. Lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. And I do not think anything was brought up that I recall about whether or not Lee had been attending school regularly or not.
Mr. McKENZIE. Can we go off the record?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. (Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.
Mr. JENNER. Referring to the 10-day leave in New York City, did you spend time with your brother Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was working during that period of time, was she not?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in New York City?
Mr. OSWALD. He took me around, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of Lee?
Mr. OSWALD. I certainly can identify the one appearing in Life--yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions.
Mr. OSWALD. I'm sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had?
Mr. OSWALD. This was my camera.
Mr. DULLES. What do these questions refer to? Do they refer to the pictures in Life?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I really did not want to refer to that at the moment.
Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?
Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him
So, according the the WCR records and the testimony of HIS BROTHER ROBERT...
Robert KNOWS his young brother and Mother are in NYC in 1952-1953... he visited them there first in 1952(!), and took the photo of HARVEY we see above during the summer of 1953.
The records of Oswald from Stripling are GONE... there is nothing to coroborrate Robert's testimony and insistence that his brother was in Ft Worth at the same time he is visiting them in NYC, both in Fall 1952 and Summer 1953.
Robert KNEW that Lee could not be both in NYC and Ft Worth... Harvey on the other hand..... is the boy on the right, and NOT the 5'4" BIG BOY in the photo on the left
btw - check out the hand and arms on Harvey on the left... look at the size of his hands comapred to his body...
now chaeck some of the Nov 22 photos of Oswald's hands.... definitely not proof... but they sure do look familiar
DJ
John PIC:
Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late Septemberearly October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.
...
"To visit my mother and my brother..."
from Harvey and Lee, Armstrong:
The Warren Commission ignored Robert Oswald's testimony about Stripling
and concluded that "Lee Harvey Oswald"
left Fort Worth in August of 1952,
and moved to New York with his mother where he attended the 7th grade (1952-53)
and the first half of the 8th grade (fall semester, 1953).
He then moved to New Orleans where he attended the last half of the 8th grade (spring semester, 1954),
all of the 9th grade (1954-55 school year), and graduated from Beauregard in June 1955.
He briefly attended Warren Easton High School in the fall of 1955 (New Orleans), dropped out, worked in
New Orleans for the next 8 months, and then moved to Fort Worth.
According to Warren Commission version of his background, it would have been impossible
for "Lee Harvey Oswald" to have attended even a single day of school at Stripling Junior
High in Fort Worth, from September 1952 thro June 1956
Finally... the assisstant pricipal of STRIPLING JR HIGH
As I continued to locate and talk with former Stripling teachers, many suggested
that I call "Frank Kudlaty," the former assistant principal at Stripling. I telephoned Mr.
Kudlaty, introduced myself as a JFK researcher, and asked if he knew whether or not
"Lee Harvey Oswald" had attended Stripling. Without hesitation Frank said, "Yes, he
attended Stripling." Somewhat surprised I asked, "How do you know that." Frank replied,
"Because I gave his Stripling records to the FBI."Frank explained, during a videotaped interview, that before the FBI agents
arrived at Stripling on Saturday morning (November 23), he briefly reviewed Oswald's
school file. He explained that when a student enrolled in a new school, in this case at
Stripling, the previous school routinely sent copies of his school transcripts. Occasionally,
if the records were not sent, the new school would write and request copies of the
school records from the previous school. Frank said that when he examined Oswald's
file he saw neither copies of school transcripts from a previous school nor a letter from
Stripling requesting such records.
Frank said this was very unusual, as Oswald must have
attended school prior to his attendance at Stripling, yet there were no records .
Greg... what I believe Harvey and Lee is trying to show is that a single person's history was created from two people. At this point in the timeline JFK is not even in the picture... This is our CIA doing what they do in their effort to deal with Russia and the Cold war....
HARVEY, imo, was to be an asset... what type and for whom... IDK.
Were Robert and John into things beyond their means? again IDK Robert supports the Lee is Lee and always was, while John knows that the Lee he is shown at the Bronx zoo, is NOT his brother... and says so.
You an I deciding on the intelligence, logic, meaningfulness, necessity and/or desire of those creating and playing these games - is in my opinion beyond us.
Knowing how these projects were set up or created in OTHER areas may or may not have a bearing on this one.
I would hope you can see Harvey and Lee as a view into planning and operations who's ultimate purposes are unknown.
Do you believe Arthur Vallee was manipulated into potentially being at the right place and right time?
If I am a chess master - I look at all the pieces on the board before I evaluate my next move... the history of Harvey/Lee makes sense in the world of spooks and spies...
That it doesn't make sense to the "normal" person is part of the beauty of it - in fact it is so "out there" that believing is harder than accepting it's even possible...
No Greg, I do not believe Harvey & Lee is debunked at all... NYC in 1952-1954 is the KEY to the merging of these two boys - and the fact that school records - originals - have all gone missing should come as no surprise.
DJ
-
Sorry Mikey... eye witness testimony is only used to authenticate the physical evidence... when a proponderance of the witness statements contradict the physical evidence
AND that evidence is horribly tainted by the activities of those who gathered it, the physical evidence is questioned.
So, except when the photographic, medical and physical evidence has no chain of custody, no authentication, no coroborration and has been exclusively in the hands of those most likely involved in the cover-up
- the FBI and Secret Service - the witness evidence supercedes it...
The fact that in a normal situation you are correct is what made AUTHENTICATING THE EVIDENCE so much more important in this case...
When in case after case the physical evidence cannot be authenticated - what do you suppose that says about that evidence other than it is NOT representative of the facts.
Curious Mike.... which of the fallible witnesses remembering incorrectly HELPED Oswald... or does every witness that cannot be trusted only say things that HURT Oswald?
11. On the basis of the evidence before the Commission it concludes
that Oswald acted alone.
The eyewitness testimony OVERWHELMINGLY puts a shooter on the grassy knoll...
-
Thanks Josh...
But that's a far cry from "He helped wrap the casket in plastic" and what about the rubber sheath and bags... Not a single person at any of the casket entries and openings have JFK's head wrapped in rubber....
Robinson uses rubber afterward to close the headwound... but that's in DC
Besides, does O'Neal bring this rubber with him... does he assume that Rose will do an autopsy and that he will be called upon to work up the body?
And a thought occurs... JFK's head is completely wrapped in a variety of things... it WAS JFK that was in that bronze casket.. right?
-
Mike, here is a portion of Debra Conway's interview with Toni Foster in 1998 which appeared in the KAC Summer 2000. It is evident that Toni Foster, the "running woman" in the extant Z-film, had not seen the Z-film. "for some reason the car stopped. It did stop for seconds. I don't ever know why it stopped and all of a sudden it sped up and they went under the underpass. I could never figure out why the car stopped." Critics say the limo stop witnesses weren't referring to the limo, but this is quite false, as you see here. Others charge the limo stop witnesses as being in schock and not able to report accurately what they saw. This foolish reasoning is contradicted by the specificity of Toni Foster's recollections, even though the interview was in 1998.
You can see why Pat Speer's dismissal of these witnesses is such an insult to those who were actually there. If I were Toni Foster and read such comments, I would be rightly indignant.
Here Here Daniel....
Burns my chaps when these witnesses are dismissed, as if the physical evidence in the case has more credibility than these eye witnesses...
the Physical evidence cannot even tell us where z313 occurs with any accuracy....
"No, Carolyn Arnold was mistaken about seeing Oswald downstairs around 12:15 ..
"Roger Craig was mistaken about who and what he saw."
"Jean Hill did NOT hear as many shots or see anyone running behind the fence",
Altgens was mistaken that as a professional photographer focusing to 15 feet and claiming that JFK was hit while 15 feet from him... another mistake
Baker's affidavit is inconsequential... that he does not mention a door with a window or the 2nd floor should simply be dismissed as an innocent mistake
Hill claiming the shells are Autos and explaining years later how he saw the hulls in a "tight bunch" - when in reality he doesn't arrive and meet Poe until AFTER they are inthe cigarette wrapper
Yates did NOT drop a man with a 4 foot paper bag at the front of the TSBD
No one sees any Oswald look a like leaving the back of the theater
White does not see a car with an Oswald in it
Those on the overpass - who all coroborrate each other - did not see smoke or hear a shot from the GK
Truly was wrong about the wide turn onto Elm
Boone and Weitzman - mistaken about the rifle
Sawyer - mistaken about the rifle being found on the 5th floor and moved
Truly was wrong about the timing with Fritz, Oswald and the finding of the rifle
Richard Carr and who he sees running rom the back of the TSBD
Ed Hoffman - cause you know handicapped people are not reliable
Below is the unedited transcript from interviews with witnesses to the Kennedy assassination: Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski
Rosemary Willis:
Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. Next thing I know, right after that, there's another shot. And after that, there's another shot and another shot. We disagree, between me and her (nodding towards her mom and sister). My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I'll tell you why: the first one, you know I'm right across from Zapruder. I'm wherever the limousine is. It's almost like I could...I'm right there. Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one. And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air.... Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and the fragments, you know, everything met. I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.
Brehm...
BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.
-
O'Neal saw the body at Parkland and helped with lining the casket.
Been looking for some coroborration... the nurses and porters do not mention Vernon at this point... who does?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.
Mr. SPECTER - And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?
Miss HENCHLIFFE - He was placed in the coffin.
-
My answers in blue... quotes in black and red
.{sigh}
The AP xray... that shows nothing from the midline down to the anatomical right ear corresponds to the Lateral which in my image above shows virtually no bone above the top arrow
This is the TOP of his head...
Not a single image of a medical person, also provided, has their hand on the TOP of their head.... where in the xray would correspond to McClellend's widow's peak.
and 2) if JFK's skull was falling all over the Bethesda table, why describe a neat, avulsed hole, as yet again, the illustrations show.... the laceration Boswell describes is as if an ax hit JFK in the head...
There is simply no way a brain comes out a 3" hole in the occipital Pat... these DOCTORS were inches from the man... BEFORE the government got involved.
Horrible wounds to left and right temples.. and the back of the head......
yet somehow, someway... that's not what we see at 8:15.
Commander HUMES -
Our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which I have previously referred to. That one portion of the missile and judging by the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, made its exit through this large defect.
A second portion of the missile or multiple second portions were deflected, and traversed a distance as enumerated by this interrupted line, with the major portion of that fragment coming to lodge in the position indicated.
Perhaps some of these minor fragments were dislodged from the major one it traversed this course.
To better examine the situation with regard to the skull, at this time, Boswell and I extended the lacerations of the scalp which were at the margins of this wound, down in the direction of both of the President's ears. At that point, we had even a better appreciation of the extensive damage which had been done to the skill by this injury.
We had to do virtually no work with a saw to remove these Portions of the skull, they came apart in our hands very easily, and we attempted to further examine the brain, and seek specifically this fragment which was the one we felt to be of a size which would permit us to recover it.
David: Horrible wounds to left and right temples.. and the back of the head......
It appears you're playing mix n match, David, and pushing something totally out of line with what anyone claimed to witness. Not ONE witness, anywhere, ever, said there was a wound to the left temple AND right temple AND back of the head, or even left temple AND back of the head, or even right temple AND back of the head. The Parkland witnesses all saw ONE wound, but remembered it differently, and described it differently. Your pushing that there were three wounds, and that they all saw but one of three wounds, and that it is a pure coincidence that NONE of them saw more than one of these wounds--IF that is indeed what you're pushing--is more than silly.
I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you.
I think you are trying to confuse what I am saying - that these three wounds were noticed at Parkland is not in dispute... EVERYONE saw the back of head wound...
SOME see a LEFT TEMPLE WOUND
SOME see s right temple wound
Not a single person sees anything resembling the xray... where the entire front of his skull is missing...... look at the drawings again Pat... or please post a single image of a drawing by any Parkland personnel that agree with either of the xrays...
thanks
DJ
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have any opinion as to the direction-that the bullet hit his head?
Dr. AKIN - I assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but I didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either.
If the RIGHT OCCIPITAL was the EXIT and the entrance came from the OTHER SIDE of the head (left temporal) - does that not add him to the list of LEFT TEMPLE wounds and those NOT seeing any frontal damage as that BS xray shows?
McClellend does not see a Left Temple wound AND hole in the back of the head?
Jenkins, left wound and large hole
Most others, Large Occipital/parietal hole...
Back wounds? no
Avulsed opening over right ear? NOPE
As far as Humes and Boswell and the crumpled skull... doctors wouldn't try to measure a wound on the skull with torn scalp and hair in the way. They would measure the skull wound after the scalp had been reflected. When they reflected the scalp, however, the skull was in pieces. They then removed some of the broken skull, and pulled out the brain.
That's not was was written or said, Pat. The testimony is that the doctors DID SAW AWAY SKULL... now whether that was at 6:45 or 8:15 is a matter os concern...
the witnesses suggest this occurs BEFORE the Y incision and well before the official autopsy begins when the skull and prain simply fall apart - AFTER our friends Humes and Boswell obliterate the wounds both front and back.
There is no indication that they measured the wound before the brain was removed.
Commander HUMES - I would estimate that approximately one-quarter of that defect was unaccounted for by adding these three fragments together and seeing what was left. This is somewhat difficult, because as back to when we were actually looking for the fragments of metal, as we moved the scalp about, fragments of various sizes would fall to the table, and so forth, so it was difficult to put that exact figure into words.
Humes’ comments to the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1992 are also relevant. He said “The head was so devastated by the exploding bullet…that we did not even have to use a saw to remove the skullcap…We peeled the scalp back and the calvarium crumpled in my hands from the fracture lines…”
EXPLODING bullet.... you mean the 6.5mm FMJ bullet as shown in CE399 as being the TYPE of bullet fired? Exploded into fragments and particles and a cloud - FMJ bullet?.
This was not described by a single Parkland doctor....
Robinson:
Removal of President’s Brain: Robinson drew dotted lines on the drawing he executed of the
posterior skull which shows the wound between the ears. When asked by ARRB staff what the dotted
lines represented, he said “saw cuts.” He explained that some sawing was done to remove some bone
before the brain could be removed, and then went on to describe what is a normal craniotomy procedure,
. saying that this procedure was performed on JFK. He seemed to remember the use of a saw, and the
scalp being reflected forward.
Q: What else did you observe from where you were with regard to any incisions or operations on the head?
REED: Well, after about 20 minutes, Commander
Humes took out a saw, and started to cut the
forehead with the bone - with the saw
Humes' words to the ARRB in 1996 offer further support that the skull basically crumpled in his hands. He told Jeremy Gunn: "Once we got the scalp laid back, some of those pieces could just be removed, you know, by picking them up, picking them up because they were just not held together very well, other than by the dura, I suppose."
So, starting with the LIES Humes tells us about using a saw, or NOT using one... Maybe by 8:15 they did not need one... but those that were there and saw what Humes did PRE AUTOPSY
tells a very different story.... at Parkland the TOP OF THE HEAD was not damaged... only the back of the head and at the temples... regardless of how many times Specter and other say "Top of the head".
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you have just described?
Dr. BASHOUR - No; I did not observe any wounds.
Mr. Specter - When you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition of the President?
Dr. Baxter - He was very obviously in extremis. There was a large gaping wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its extent was not immediately determined. His eyes were bulging, the pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were deviated laterally. At that time his breathing was being assisted so that whether he was breathing on his own or not, I couldn't determine
Dr. Baxter - The only wound that I actually saw--Dr. Clark examined this above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. This wound was in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there was a large area, oh, I would say 6 by 8 or 10 cm. of lacerated brain oozing from this wound, part of which was on the table and made a rather massive blood. loss mixed with it and around it.
Mr. Specter - Did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at the top of the head?
Dr. Baxter - No; I personally did not.
Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.
Dr. CLARK: I then examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. There was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. I would estimate 1,500 cc. of blood being present.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive loss of skull which you have described?
Dr. JENKINS - On the right side?
Mr. SPECTER - Yes, sir.
Dr. JENKINS - No---I don't know whether this is right or not, but I thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process.
Mr. SPECTER - The autopsy report discloses no such development, Dr. Jenkins.
Dr. JENKINS - Well, I was feeling for---I was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so I thought there was a wound there also.
Dr. JONES - With no history as to the number of times that the President had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation that I could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound would be that would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the posterior portion of the head
-
All depends on who you ask and when Barry.
From nude in clear pastic sheets, to a black body bag, to sheets around the body and head.... plain metal shipper, ornate bronze casket....
Never have heard the O'Neal version with the rubber... unless this was much later after Robinson did his work...
O'Neal was not called by the WC....
When would Vernon have seen the body like this - he wasn't at Bethesda was he?
DJ
The Two Oswald Phenomena Explained
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Let's see
October 18, 1939... I was thinking 1938....
and I did not miss your first post Greg...
fertile minds = you way of saying they were made up... some sightings were, some weren't... to say there were no other people looking like Oswald and using his name would be incorrectly stating the evidence.
mistaken identity = again, bottom line, you have PEOPLE making mistakes supported by unsigned, uncorroborated FBI accounts
deliberate impersonation = events that only happen outside the US and definitely NOT in TX... Cause the CIA does not operate on american soil - right? Cause impersonating him in Mexico only makes sense if you DO NOT impersonate him anywhere else...
C'mon Greg... don't tell me you are not using anything but FBI reports... most every one of these is FBI and while discussin 1953/54 you post 1954/55 links... uh, ok.
Below are the Unit Diaries... as well as a page from the man's health records
U.D.:
"was in Ping Tung, N Taiwan 30 September 1958"
"returned to Atsugi Japan 5 October 1958" -
we can see from the medical records that he is checked on the 20th 22nd and 29th... the 6th and 24th of October AND AGAIN on Nov 3rd! -
didn't you say that this might be cover for a training mission...? Except A boat sales from Japan with an Oswald on it Nov 2nd....
Now the next block... shows Oswald "sick at Atsugi Hospital from 7 October 1958 to 13 October 1958".... while the Blakey documents say hospitalization from Oct 7 thru Oct 15...
And the other Oswald is seen on Oct 6th with "SEVERE HEAVY DISCHARGE due to heavy lifting" which is one week after the Sept 29th visit in which he was markedly improved...
and then the unit diary tells us LEE is in the hospital from the 7th to the 13th... yet there is no record of his being treated for anything in his medical record.
Greg, with HARVEY returning from Taiwan...LEE had to be moved.
On Nov 2 HARVEY leaves Japan
On Nov 3, LEE is once again seen at the Atsugi Hospital... wonder why there are no records of his being in that hospital from the 7th to the 15th?
And according to the records below...10/6/58 thru 12/22/58 he does not seem to have left Japan yet.... isn't MAG II and 1st MAW in Japan?
yet the Diary has him leaving Nov 2 ??
The HSCA finds that on Nov 2 Oswald leaves Japan... that the WCR did not have access to MAGII... yet the medical pages show that Oswald had "cocci noted!" on Oct 24th with a note to return in 5 days.
Instead we have a note by the same Dr on 11/3...
According to Armstrong... Sept/Oct/Nov 1958 is when the switch occurs... when HARVEY returns from Taiwan and becomes LEE, we find that from Nov 2 on, our Mr Oswald no longer has any hemorroids or STD problems... and is returned to CA while LEE remains at the U-2/CIA base at Atsugi Japan.
Greg, if you want to keep chalking all this up to MISTAKES in the record and MISTAKES in the testimonies and memories - you're of course entitled to whatever you'd like to think.
When you are not linking to WE SAID HE SAID FBI reports you link to the HSCA conclusions or report... another paragon of quality evidence...
These are the docs Greg, THESE are what Armstrong used to find the discrepencies in the military records. Not what the FBI said the witnesses said, or what Blakey says the DoD said.
When combined with the civilian evidence there is a strong indication of two people merged into one history to create the little commie that became LHO.
I'm sorry but I do not put faith into the documents you used to support your argument... the FBI tells us there were only 3 shots and 2 hits... the FBI will only remain a window into the conspiracy...
That you would choose to use these FBI reports as the defense for your rebuttals is quite a surprise... unless you have something to corroborate them?
I'm done with this now Greg... we are at an impass and I respect your postings too much to continue just disagreeing. Arguments that are based in "everything offered against the truth must be a MISTAKE" is a LNer tactic and is simply beneath you imo... fast forward a little while and this red-blooded american is now a defecting, Russian speaking communist/marxist... that's quite the transition.
Peace
DJ