David Josephs
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Posts posted by David Josephs
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The evidence indicates that CE399 is probably the bullet which passed through Kennedy's body.
CE399 is a full metal jacket round which tend to pierce through the target.
Just cause it's fun to see if you'll EVER post anything of substance...
#1
WHAT EVIDENCE puts CE399 in Dallas Mike? Let alone thru JFK.
You are aware that the only initials to authenticate the chain of custody BEGINS with FBI Agent Frasier in DC... right?
and that Frasier basically REMOVES ALL HUMAN DEBRIS FROM THE BULLET THEREBY DESTROYING ANY CHANCE TO SEE WHO THAT BLOOD EVIDENCE MIGHT BELONG TO
Mr. EISENBERG - Getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, Mr. Frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in the laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. It was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it actually would not have been necessary.
Mr. EISENBERG - Is that true on both fragments?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - You also mentioned there was blood or some other substance on the bullet marked 399. Is this an off-hand determination, or was there a test to determine what the substance was?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, there was no test made of the materials.
Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis.
Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.
Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet
Cause we wouldn't want to test and type the blood on these bullets and find out ????
#2
If CE399 is indicative of the ammo used in the other two shots that were claimed to have occurred.... why did it leave fragments in the brain too small to even be removed, when the bullet was DESIGNED not to fragment unless fired at ridiculously high velocities
Any reason one bullet remains pristine, while the other obliterated? (hint: two different types of bullets)
Mike... you are so far out of your league here it is humorous to watch you flounder around as if you have something to contribute or clarify.
CE399 was not in Dallas... unless you have someting that proves it was... you'd be the first
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Mike... if you actually arrived WITH A MESSAGE, that would be one thing...
all you have is some opinion and the ability to stomp your feet and hold your breath until you get your way... you know, like a child.
If you are here with a message, then WIN ONE already Mike....
The NPIC and LIFE magazine looked carefully at this film... agree?
You are stating that JC is shot right around z222/223... agree?
Why is it that neither LIFE nor the NPIC found a shot occurring between 213 and 242?
How is it possible to have "Frames on which Shots occur" that do not match with the LIFE analysis? Did LIFE actually see a shot at Z190...
or did they simply work backward from 312 and figure out WHEN the shots HAD TO BE?
and what do you have to impeach the testimony of the man who was actually hit?
Is this still the Mike Rago opinion hour or do you have the BALLS to defend your position with evidence and authentication rather than... "I think...."
Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot, In the first place, don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached
that far, and after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all.
Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.
btw - here are the zframes LIFE/NPIC says shots may occur...
Do you see any shots other than 312?
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3.) The three tramps, whose arrest records were discovered years later (by a pair of conspiracy theorists, of all people), with the tramps turning out to be nothing but...real tramps.
David David.... Like CE399, the tramps in the photo have been shown NOT to be the ones identified...
but why let things like facts, evidence and proof stand in the way of your propaganda mission... right?
Except the REAL tramps were booked and spent 3 days in jail.... whereas the tramps in the photo were all released that afternoon...
Chambers tell us they let them all go... after an initial discussion... and for the life of him cannot understandhow his name got onto their arrest reports....
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312 page 3, 2nd paragraph
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 page 3 2nd paragraph as well states that DOYLE, one of the people YOU SAY was one of the tramps arrested... tells us that they were booked and sentenced to 6 days in jail yet only stayed for 3....
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310 page 5 - Wise telling us how smelly and dirty these men were even though they said they had gone to a mission, showered and eaten before being captured....
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Was curious whether there was any rhyme or reason to the VC numbering system Waldman devised to track rifles.....
The question is how these serial numbers were transfered to the master VC sheet...
C2766 was assigned VC836.... vc 834, 835, 837, 838 are all from different cartons....with the highest numbered carton packing slip, 4376, containing VC#'s
Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.
This seems to suggest that the Serial numbers are assigned a VC number upon ARRIVAL - as this # is what Kleins uses to TRACK THEIR RIFLE UNTIL SOLD.
If you are opening carton after carton and putting these rifles into Kleins inventory, how is it that the sequential VC numbers do not come close to matching items even on the same packing slip?
and finally - to my point that I refuse to let drop.... At least ONE OF THESE RIFLES had to have been sold prior to VC#836/C2766 - yet the records have been saved in such a manner as we cannot confirm or refute whether Kleins shipped any of these other rifles to anyone over the previous 6 months...
WE cannot see the records of the shipping companies or any other entitiy coming in contact with Kleins and their shipping of FC rifles in place of C20-T750....
The Money order is very suspect and the weight of this shipment makes it IMPOSSIBLE that these were 40" 7.5lb rifles.... (each carton holding a rifle weighed just under 1lb, the master shipping crate - made of wood and strong enough to hold 750lbs of rifle ALSO weighed something)... So we have 100-7.5lb rifles, 100-.8lb cartons which ALONE weigh close to 850lbs...
Any reason why a shipper would UNDER WEIGH a shipment they get paid to ship? the 36" rifle weighed 6.5lbs... plus cartons and crate equates to 750lbs....
So were the packing slips created BEFORE or AFTER the rifles arrived at Kleins to include C2766?
and please equate the "10 MODEL NO." 38 E to a MC model....
FBI D-178 shows that 288 cartons of "38 E" rifles are enclosed with 170 "91-E" and 62 "38-I" yet when rifles are removed from inventory they are listed as 38 E 91 I... after the first batch, 170 cases, is removed by Rupp on 8/29/62
I still contend that we are not allowed to see other Kleins orders for C20-T750 since not a single one was shipped a rifle from this list of FC rifles.... otherwise our FBI would have printed a whole batch to show the PATTERN established...
No orders at all in the records makes it impossible to know what Kleins was doing with their FC rifles and C20-T750 orders... convenient, right?
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Nice start Mike....
Tomlinson cannot positively ID
Wright? Nope
SA Johnson? Nope
Cheif Rowley? Nope again...
Only Todd says thatwhat Rowley gave him was what he gave Frasier and was CE399...
No one in Dallas can confirm it as the bullet found.... only becomes CE399, the MAGIC BULLET, in DC
why is that Mike?
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I typed up a response and then lost it...
We have SS docs that talk about bullets that disappear
We have reports that prove CE399 was not in Dallas and added after the fact as evidence
and the FBI/SS would NEVER TAMPER WITH THIS IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, right?
Sure, but you don't know that as a FACT in regard to the "missing bullets."I don't traffic in certainties I can't back up 100%. We have different approaches to the evidence, you and I...
Cause I see you have 100% proof that a blood soluble flechette was used and that the SS/FBI did not simply make bullets go away?
when in thie report below, from that day, tells us the SS has in their possession two bullets.... and one of them is directly linked to JFK's headshot...
So the bullet to the head, that the SS has in their possession, disappears... and you conclude that instead of a fragment exiting the throat, as was seen in THE autopsy report on Jan 27th
and then that too was disappeared since it was inconsistent with the SBT.... it was a soluble bullet carrying a paralyzing toxin...
cause the thenology existed at the time....
I repeat... the doctors asked about soluble bullets because
1) they were either in on the alteration and helping point in other directions or
2) they could not conceive of the SS/FBI or anyone altering the body and removing these bullets before hand... or the SS/FBI tampering with evidence....
Humes was a good military man... but documentation doesn't lie, too often... and this as well as another document describes a bullet
When we have photos of blond man picking up a bullet from the grass by the manhole cover
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I hate it when people misstate what I say. That is one reason I have you on ignore. But unfortunately ignore does not work when I am not logged in.
You are saying CE399 hit Connally and shattered his wrist. I am not saying that The bullet that shattered Connally's wriist and ribs was most likely found in fragments on the floor of the limo.
I am saying CE399 ended up in Connally's clothes maybe his hat and ultimately on the stretcher.
Do whatever gives you the most jollies Mike... I could give care less....
Yet you seem unable to prove your points in any manner on any thread
and my (and other) posts continue to show that...
so instead of IGNORE... which you obviously can't seem to do either
How about PROVING SOMETHING within your theory? and then, Google the name Audrey Bell and read about yet another bullet... or what Tomlinson actually said about the shape of the bullet he held...
anything is better than you throwing it against the wasll and hoping it sticks
No, I am saying CE399 was NEVER in Dallas....
and these people prove it... when everyone up to the agent who got the bullet from Chief Rowley and supposedly gave it to Frasier cannot ID the bullet,
yet Todd confirms that what Rowley gave him was what he gave Frasier...
Who do you supposed gave CE399 to either Rowley, Todd, or Frasier... cause it did NOT come from Dallas... but this one did:
Any idea where this second bullet is?
Taking some advise from the others here would serve you well Mike... doing a little reserach BEFORE you commit to indefensible positions might help...
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Yes, Mike...
They shot the same bullet type thru a cadaver's wrist... the results in the WCR...
and the 800lb Gorilla is not two wounds not bullets... it what did the SS do with the bullets they clima were in their possession
the other 800lb Gorilla is WHERE did CE399 come from?
Do you understand that if you shoot those bullets thru water... or cotton fiber, you get the same slight deformation...
Look at the top of CE399... THAT was supposed to have shattered ribs and wrist AFTER passing thru JFK (Which Drs have already told you was impossible)
and still have enough power to lodge in JC's leg...
Plus, the men who handled what became CE399, ALL COULD NOT, WOULD NOT AUTHENTICATE THAT BULLET AS THE ONE THEY HANDLED...
So how can CE399 be the SBT whan none of those who had it can identify it?
One last question....
Here is what happen to a POINTED FMJ bullet at different speeds... the MC in evidence does not fire much past 2100fps....
So we would EXPECT the bullet to remain somewhat intact....
As you know... the headshot produced MANY very small particles of metal... and a sort of fog at the front top of the brain...
ASK anyone familiar with FMJ and why they were designed... to NOT BREAK UP AT HIGH SPEEDS when traveling thru a body... a more human bullet since the wound was clean and there would be less infection and death for the injured...
So why didn't the headshot just go thru and thru, like the SBT, and come out pristine - these were two bullets, from the same lot, from the same rifle...
ACTING as if they were not....
Any ideas?
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Problem being that neither LIFE nor NPIC found a shot between 213 and 242...
That JFK was hit either at 190, 203 or 213...
and JC says he was hit AFTER the first shot.... so does Nellie
and then there's those pesky downward angles that don't add up....
You're getting close...
DJ
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Shooting him to paralyze him, to me, makes no sense.... you run the risk of anyone, someone, coming to his aid... all Jackie needed to do was pull him down...
If she didn't know what was wrong with him -- why would she pull him down?
In a first-shot/kill-shot scenario the danger was that he'd only be winged, and like a good military man hit the deck. They could not assume a successful first-shot/kill-shot.
Could they?
There's a bigger point being lost here. This idea of a blood soluble strike came from the autopsists.
That's not what I said Cliff.... I said that was all Jackie needed to do....
You don't think the soluble round shot could not have "nicked" or "winged" him and there would be NO CHANCE for a kill shot....
The FIRST SHOT, the unexpected shot, is the best chance for a kill shot... even a perfect paralyzing shot leaves room for some heroic action by someone around JFK...
With no one infront of them, Greer's job was to get the heck out of there, Kellerman's SHOULD have gone thru hell and high water to cover his president...
If anything, the stopping of the limo should have caused a few SS men to jump on JFK to protect him...
Bolden tells us that probably wouldn't have happened in any scenario....
The autopsists were GUESSING cliff... they did not see a round in the body... so, not realizing that the body had altered, or actually taking part in the alterations themselves
and that the bullets that SHOULD have been there, were no longer there
and the FBI/SS would NEVER TAMPER WITH THIS IMPORTANT EVIDENCE, right?
these "autopsists" were guessing as to what happened, and a soluble bullet made more sense at the time ... then what really happened - Humes/Boswell altered the wounds
IMO Humes was trying to leave clues to clear his conscience...
Amazing how "soluble bullet" makes more sense to you then the Secret Service disappearing evidence which it had in its hot little hands....
thanks to Palamara:
The Secret Service was responsible for so much in this case, far more than most people know or suspect. To recap:
1) PROTECTION OF JFK;
2) PLANNING OF TEXAS TRIP;
3) INSIDE KNOWLEDGE OF JFK’S PERSONAL LIFE, NA-TIONAL SECURITY ISSUES;
4) PRESIDENTIAL LIMOUSINE (INCLUDING WINDSHIELD);
5) JFK’S BODY AFTER DEATH---PRESENCE AT PARKLAND AND BETHESDA (AUTOPSY);
6) AIR FORCE 1 AND AIR FORCE 2;
7) C-130 TRANSPORT PLANE;
8) AUTOPSY X-RAYS/ PHOTOS;
9) AUTOPSY REPORTS;
10) JFK’S CLOTHING;
11) THREE PIECES OF SKULL;
12) CE399/ "MAGIC BULLET";
13) RECORDINGS OF DALLAS POLICE RADIO;
14) PRIME ASSASSINATION WITNESSES;
15) INTERVIEWS OF TSBD WITNESSES;
16) INTERVIEWS OF PARKLAND DOCTORS;
17) TV, RADIO RECORDINGS OF PARKLAND DOCTORS;
18) CAPTIVITY OF AND INTERVIEWS WITH MARINA OSWALD, INCLUDING TRANSLATION;
19) FIRST REENACTMENTS & SURVEYS: 11/25,11/27, AND 12/5/63;
20) ASSASSINATION PHOTOS & FILMS.
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Yo Mike... this really too hard for you to follow?
The hypethetical that Specter introduces describes the SBT to a "T"... 45 degree downward entrance (ala Humes and the FBI report)
Jones tells you to produce a hole like what we see, the bullet would have simply dropped out the front of the neck...
Using the image I posted... wanna show us the SBT in action? or you gonna stick tail tween legs and shuffle off?
??
Personally, I do NOT subscribe to the ice bullet, flechette theory... when we have a perfectly 2or more perfectly logical explanations
1) What we see on the medical evidence is complete BS and not indicatvie of the injuries sustained.... there is evidence of another shot entering at the base of his neck per Lipsey, and I believe by Kellerman yet Specter botched the question so bad we are not sure...
If the Lipsey entrance was there, a fragment could have exited the throat
Mr. Rankin:
Then there‘s a great range of material in regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.
We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation
the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent,
since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the
right of the backbone, which is below the place where the
picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt
in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike
any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.
So that how it could turn, and --
Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went.in a
finger's length.
Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said
2) While the hole in the windshield is still, imo, not a settled issue... I guess it takes reall hangers to shoot thru a windshield between 4 people in a moving vehicle..
Unless maybe the limo stopped... but that's not when we see the reaction to the throat...
Shooting him to paralyze him, to me, makes no sense.... you run the risk of anyone, someone, coming to his aid... all Jackie needed to do was pull him down...
Greer and the other SS agents, save Hill, appear frozen and doing anything BUT protecting JFK....
As others have put so well... JFK leaving Dallas alive was not acceptable... Dick Russell discusses conversations with men who say they too were ready to shoot JFK along the freeway route should he get out of DP alive (but that's another story for another thread)....
I am NOT discounting your good work or your conclusions, just respectfully disagreeing at this point as the evidence used to reverse engineer the assassination is akin to being given an automobile and told to reverse engineer an elephant... the extant physical evidence CANNOT lead to an understanding of the assassination's physical realities....
As I've repeatedly held, the witnesses and non-government investigations, along with what was NOT edited out of the WCR testimonies will give you a much clearer picture of what occurred than ANY of the physical evidence... The physical evidence is a roadmap to the conspiracy...
One only need follow it.
DJ
If what you say is true, nobody, would be arguing the SBT.
You're sadly mistaken. During the autopsy Humes probed the wound with his finger and found it shallow. Finck probed the wound properly with a metal probe and declared there was no lane of transit.
And yet people still argue for the SBT!
Let me ask you a question. I asked Mr. Joesphs this question but he never answered it.
Do you think that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to show ejected bone from the head in order to conceal surgery to the presidents head that happened between Parkland and Bethesda?
Lets pretend .....
Lets pretend that you are in car and someone is going to shoot at you in the car. And you are in the back seat. You know that someone is going to aim at you from behind with a high powered rifle.. Would you let your child sit in the front seat immediately in front of you? And the car is a covertible with top down. Lets assume that you know you are going to be hit in the back and there is only going to be one shot.
If your answer is no , why is it no?
Answer to your question about 313... No.
Mike... your "let's pretend" arguments remind me of Arlen Specter's
Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume
first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second,
with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President,
with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees,
striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula,
being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process,
passing through the President's body striking no bones,
traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity,
and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described,
and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?
Just like you Mike... "Let's PRETEND"
So our Mr Specter here is asking whether - IF YOU ASSUME THAT THE WOUND I AM DESCRIBING IS A WOUND OF EXIT,
Would the hole be consistent with an EXIT wound?
Is an EXIT WOUND (as Arlen described it and asks that you ASSUME it to be true), an EXIT WOUND?
Dr. JONES - The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.
Mr. SPECTER - Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?
Dr. JONES - Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.
So what up here Mike?
If the bullet was barely going fast enough to exit the front... how did it do all those things to JC? IT DIDN'T.
Finally, if we assume Arlen's LET's PRETEND is fact... where is the EXIT POINT of a shot that HITS NOTHING, and ENTERS JFK's BACK wherever you want it to.... and travels downward at 45 degrees?
(Hint: the bullet would have been shot from the moon, down thru JFK;s head, out his throat and basically down into the floor in front of JFK) But how about YOU do something other than offer your opinion....
Show us how a 45 degree shot does what you say it did....
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Hey Jim...
I've been talking with Armstrong and asked him if he tried to get those orders....
He told me that when he was there in the mid-90's they told him there was no such cannister of microfilm.. even though it was a WCR exhibit.
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The above is a pretty simple question to answer, even for DVP.... only a fool would believe the HIDELL order was the only C20-T750 ordered in all those months...
So we will assume a "yes" on Q1
2) Do you believe that any orders for said Item # would have the Seriel # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?
C'mon now Dave.... since there HAD to be other C20-T750 orders... did Waldman write the seriel # shipped on ALL of them?
Would these seriel numbers be from the list of 99 other FC rifles? Waldman #4... or from a different type of rifle?
STOP telling me what I think, and start telling us what you believe here.
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...answering these questions will not make you look any less the shill LNer than you are...
but they may teach you something about logic...
A CTer who thinks LHO never ordered a rifle by mail order in '63 and who thinks ALL of the paperwork connected with that rifle purchase is fake and fraudulent is preaching to me about "logic".
Oh, my weak bladder! Have at least some pity on it, will ya Davey!
Let's try this in small, spoonsize bites for Mr Big Brain here....
David,
1) Do you believe C20-T750 was ordered and purchased by anyone other than HIDELL between 4/62 and 2/63? Simple yes or not will do
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If no FC rifles were ever sent for C20-T750 orders... that we cannot see a single seriel # of a FC rifle on one of these orders HIDELL's order sticks out like a sore thumb.
Why are you so obsessed with this, David?
I don't find it unusual in the least that we have never seen OTHER (non-Oswald) orders from Klein's files. I wouldn't EXPECT to see any non-LHO orders from Klein's ... because, as stressed previously, any non-C2766 orders were IMMATERIAL when it came to the FBI's investigation into the JFK murder case. They were searching for ONE specific serial number. No other number or order mattered. I wonder why it matters to you so much? It's crazy.
In a related topic, has anybody ever seen any other order forms filled out by Seaport Traders for other revolvers shipped to non-Oswald customers? I never have. Have you, David? And if you haven't, are you going to start belly-aching about fake evidence in the Seaport files regarding the reviolver that Oswald ordered?
Thanks again Dave... you're like a broken clock, well maybe not.... even a broken clock is right twice a day....
The FBI did not want to show us any other C20-T750 orders because .... wait for it......
They would show that FC rifles were NEVER sent for orders of the Item #, until the April 1963 order... 2 months after HIDELL's order coupon
And since they NEVER sent FC rifles - except as recorded, IN HANDWRITTING, on HIDELL's order form... wait for it again Dave.....
We can conclude that the Kleins order form... of which the original no longer exists, and is a copy of a microfilm print... was CREATED to link HIDELL to C2766...
Unless of course, we can show the PATTERN from these Kleins orders that they were shipping the FC rifles based on Waldman writing the seriel #'s and VC #'s on the orders....
What are you so afraid of Dave? These orders have just as much chance of supporting the FC shipment hypothesis, as it does refuting it.
Does evidence that MAY exonnerate Oswald terrify you LNers that much....
I could actually HEAR GMACK peeing his pants thru the emails when considering the implications of there not being a single other Kleins order that lists a FC rifle for aC20-T750 shipment.... that the HIDELL order was the one and only....
So rather than continue HIJACKING THIS THREAD over the seriel #..... PROVE THAT KLEINS SENT FC RIFLES FOR ALL C20-T750 ORDERS...
Or you gonna pee your pants as well and change the subject... and avoid ansering even themost basic common sense questions....
Let us know where you stand on this Dave... answering these questions will not make you look any less the shill LNer than you are...
but they may teach you something about logic....
1) Do you believe C20-T750 was ordered and purchased by anyone other than HIDELL between 4/62 and 2/63?
2) Do you blieve that any orders for said Item # would have the Seriel # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?
3) Do you contend that starting with the cancellation of the TS order, C20-T750 orders were shipped a scoped 40" FC EACH TIOME and that 40" FC rifle seriel numbers woulld be written on these orders?
4) Do you understand that if they WERE SHIPPED FC RIFLES this would provew that Kleins WAS shipping the FC and you can now prove it
5) Do you also understand that if the rifles shipped for C20-T750 orders was NOT the 40"FC but some other rifle(s), your case for Kleins having shipped a FC to HIDELL is severely weakened?
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Related Quote (which I've just added to my "Quoting Common Sense" website). I was surprised to learn today that this is the first one from Mr. Mack that I've put on my site. That's a blatant oversight on my part, because Gary's common-sense offerings are plentiful. I'll have to see about adding some more in the future:
"The [sixth Floor] Museum has NO position, just history. .... Oswald ordered a Carcano, got one, let others see it, had himself photographed with it, used it to try to kill someone but failed, then used it again to kill and injure. That’s what history says and no amount of whining and question asking [by conspiracy theorists] changes any aspect of that. There is simply no significant evidence that has changed that history, at least so far." -- Gary Mack; August 6, 2012
Excuse me, David... that line you just posted was in an email addressed to ME from Gary... you were and continued to be CC'd for some reason....
You did not ask my permission to post something addressed to me, sent to me and from a discussion I was having with Gary...
If you're not being manipulated, why can't you just let Gary man up and post HIS WORDS HIMSELF, and if you are NOT the party to whom an email is address, I suggest you get the addressee's permission before quoting.... and since Gary must have given you the okay to post
When I discussed with Gary the NEED to see these other Kleins orders to either support or weaken the FC was sent bullsh!t... this was his reply....
From: Gary Mack [mailto:GMack@jfk.org]
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 11:14 AM
To: David Josephs
Cc: David Von Pein (DaveVonPein@aol.com)
Subject: RE: Help Please - need to see FBI Item D-77: Kleins orders
Dear SPINster,
The Museum has NO position, just history. I have my personal opinions, which I gave you. Oswald ordered a Carcano, got one, let others see it, had himself photographed with it, used it to try to kill someone but failed, then used it again to kill and injure. That’s what history says and no amount of whining and question asking [you’ve] offered changes any aspect of that. There is simply no significant evidence that has changed that history, at least so far. For my part, I offered a recording and a photograph that – and I still believe this - with corroboration would have done just that. You offer…….what? Yet another question that is irrelevant to the fact that Oswald’s rifle was and remains directly linked to him and the Kennedy assassination?
Gary
THIS dvp, is the curator of a MUSEUM, who could care less if the information, the HISTORY as approved.... is factual or not...
DO NOT POST ANYTHING FROM MY EMAILS WITH GARY.... if he wants to copy/paste and send to you for publication... oh right, you are NOT manipulated by Gary...
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We KNOW frames are missing from the film... 156/57, 205-212, and btw did you know about the zplice at 341 that was replaced with a different film's frame?
So we KNOW the film was in at least 3-4 pieces at some point.
sigh.....
David, I think you missed Craig's point. His hyperlink is to my "combined edit", which is where all the colour frames you have posted come from.
I originally created this set in early 2003 (you can see them all over the net with the blue mask around them; there was a historical reason I did this), and then improved the processing in 2006 (without adding the blue mask this time). You're showing frames from the current (2006) set, as shown on the page linked to by Craig.
There was never a splice alleged at 341 or 350 by anyone. These are two of the three frames "lost" by MPI when they created the 1998 DVD that these frames (originally) came from. (They also managed to "lose" the last frame, 486.)
The frames damaged and missing around 155-156 and 207-212 are that way on the "camera original" film that MPI scanned.
Before 2003 I ran some processes to try to "reconstruct" as much of the missing frames (and parts of frames) from the copies of them on Groden's videos. (I tried getting some digital originals from him back around 2001, but that went nowhere.) This includes trying to position them correctly relative to where the sprocket holes would have been, removing some distortions / damage in his copies of copies, and trying to get the colour balance to match that of the MPI scans. Some parts of the Groden frame images were so damaged or distorted that I ended up just smudging them with a paint program, to remove the impression that the damage or artefacts were part of the original. Likewise where I stitched parts of reconstructed Groden frames to the MPI versions of the "camera original".
All of this "splicing" was done by yours truly, this century. I don't know why you think that they are "WCR" or "SS" splices. I've tried to make it pretty clear what I did and why.
John
John... The only point CL was trying to make, imo, was that there are indeed 486 frames. His disdain for you comes thru most every post...
I KNOW you used other film (without the Intersproket area images) to replace the damaged/missing frames.
I hope you've read thru my and C.Davidson's math on the zframes and timings and know how important 156, and the 207 sequences are....
That there are also problems with frames 340 and 350 is also of no surprise as this is the key area, that is corrected for the actual placement of the 313 shot, occurs at z341/2
I happen to think your contributions have been ginormous and thank you each and every time I use the zframes....
I happen to believe that MANY FRAMES of what was the Zfilm were removed and that the "original" was then recreated.... and I think 8mm copy 0184 is key....
Zap has the original and best copy on 11/22 (master + 0183)
Sorrells has two copies (0185, 0186)...one he keeps one goes to the FBI
THAT's all four versions of the film...
How then does Max Phillips put a copy on a plane to Rowley that evening ?
Cheers
DJ
CD - 87 Folder 1
CO2 34030 11/22
9:55
To: Chief Rowley
From: Max D. Phillips
Subject: 8mm movie film showing President
Kennedy being shot
Enclosed is an 8mm movie film
taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas
Texas (RI8-6071)
Mr.. Zapruder was photographing
the President at the instant he was shot.
According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of
the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.
Note: Disregard personel scenes
shown on Mr. Zapruder’s film.. Mr. Zapruder
is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints
were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.
The third print is forwarded.
Max D. Phillips
Special Agent - PRS
-
Hang on a second here DVP... hijack some other thread...
this is NOT about the number of C2766 rifles ....
This is about any one of the other 99 FC rilfes with seriel numbers being sold as C20-T750 by Kleins from April 62 thru Feb 63...
so that the SINGLE AND ONLY EXAMPLE of this ever happening does not become the cornerstone of your evidence....
This is very simply and you are trying to confuse the issue....
1) Do you believe C20-T750 was ordered and purchased by anyone other than HIDELL between 4/62 and 2/63?
2) Do you blieve that any orders for said Item # would have the Seriel # and VC # written on it JUST LIKE THE HIDELL ORDER?
3) Do you contend that starting with the cancellation of the TS order, C20-T750 orders were shipped a scoped 40" FC EACH TIOME and that 40" FC rifle seriel numbers woulld be written on these orders?
4) Do you understand that if they WERE SHIPPED FC RIFLES this would provew that Kleins WAS shipping the FC and you can now prove it
5) Do you also understand that if the rifles shipped for C20-T750 orders was NOT the 40"FC but some other rifle(s), your case for Kleins having shipped a FC to HIDELL is severely weakened?
I just want to see examples of other C20-T750 orders and you and GMack come flying out of the woodwork with your non-sequitor and ad hominem....
He does not see the value of reviewing the shipping patterns of Kleins related to this Item #, as expected...
You simply change the subject... also as expected....
The questions above represent a test of your common sense... simple logic: If A=B and B=C, and C=D... LOGIC tells us that A=D, B=D, A=C, etc...
Logic sand Geometry are very similiar....
If C20-T750 = M91/38FC and FC's were shipped on all C20-T750 orders during the months in question then logic tells us
that we can trace each FC rifle via an order for C20-T750 between 4/62 and 3/63... and since these orders include the HIDELL ORDER, HIDELL must have been sent an FC
If no FC rifles were ever sent for C20-T750 orders... that we cannot see a single seriel # of a FC rifle on one of these orders
HIDELL's order sticks out like a sore thumb
Even you should be able to follow that... right?
DJ
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If what you say is true, nobody, would be arguing the SBT.
You're sadly mistaken. During the autopsy Humes probed the wound with his finger and found it shallow. Finck probed the wound properly with a metal probe and declared there was no lane of transit.
And yet people still argue for the SBT!
Let me ask you a question. I asked Mr. Joesphs this question but he never answered it.
Do you think that people altered Zapruder frame 313 to show ejected bone from the head in order to conceal surgery to the presidents head that happened between Parkland and Bethesda?
Lets pretend .....
Lets pretend that you are in car and someone is going to shoot at you in the car. And you are in the back seat. You know that someone is going to aim at you from behind with a high powered rifle.. Would you let your child sit in the front seat immediately in front of you? And the car is a covertible with top down. Lets assume that you know you are going to be hit in the back and there is only going to be one shot.
If your answer is no , why is it no?
Answer to your question about 313... No.
Mike... your "let's pretend" arguments remind me of Arlen Specter's
Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume
first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second,
with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President,
with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees,
striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula,
being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process,
passing through the President's body striking no bones,
traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity,
and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described,
and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?
Just like you Mike... "Let's PRETEND"
So our Mr Specter here is asking whether - IF YOU ASSUME THAT THE WOUND I AM DESCRIBING IS A WOUND OF EXIT,
Would the hole be consistent with an EXIT wound?
Is an EXIT WOUND (as Arlen described it and asks that you ASSUME it to be true), an EXIT WOUND?
Dr. JONES - The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.
Mr. SPECTER - Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?
Dr. JONES - Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.
So what up here Mike?
If the bullet was barely going fast enough to exit the front... how did it do all those things to JC? IT DIDN'T.
Finally, if we assume Arlen's LET's PRETEND is fact... where is the EXIT POINT of a shot that HITS NOTHING, and ENTERS JFK's BACK wherever you want it to.... and travels downward at 45 degrees?
(Hint: the bullet would have been shot from the moon, down thru JFK;s head, out his throat and basically down into the floor in front of JFK) But how about YOU do something other than offer your opinion....
Show us how a 45 degree shot does what you say it did....
-
Mr. Rago is demonstrating his penchant for minimizing that to which he either lacks the intellectual capacity to understand or the courage to accept.
That is not to say that I necessarily subscribe to the supposition that this weapon system was definitely employed in Dallas. I do not. However, merely
acknowledging the fact that there is sufficient supporting evidence to entertain the possibility does seem warranted.
But not for Mr. Rago who authoritatively pronounced his papal ruling on this subject, as well as many others, from on high: as if he is speaking from first
hand knowledge. Yet, nothing could be farther from the truth. His lack of understanding permeates nearly every one of the many topics he has started on
this forum. His lack of a basic grasp of the evidence is gargantuan. Mind you, this alone is nothing about which he should feel ashamed. However, his far-
reaching arrogance is. It is embarrassing to observe.
Mr. Rago behaves as if he knows for certain “what did or did not” happen. He utters pronouncements of dismissal to render as trivial any areas of study in
which he has never even before been engaged! Yet, it has taken seasoned researchers sometimes more than a decade to reach conclusions about these
subjects. Many are still undecided because there exists conflicting evidence, which still has yet to “settle” sufficiently to render absolute judgments. But, not
for Mike Rago: he is certain after only a few weeks—sometimes after a few minutes—of research.
Perhaps other seasoned researchers will be more patient with him, but I suspect there will be few if any.
We’ve seen this type before. They burst on the scene from obscurity claiming and/or behaving as if they have all the answers—at least all the important ones.
And then they’re gone.
I can hardly wait.
Bernard Haire today... Donald Goin tomorrow
-
Mike...
Remind us again what you've been RIGHT about...
and then maybe look up a few essays and lectures written by Mr. Salandria and LEARN something.
"I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly. "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their government was powerless. And the people eventually got the message. Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination. People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.
"The tyranny of power is here. Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by* promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad. And that will lead not to revolution but to repression. I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities. No doubt we are dealing now with an international conspiracy. We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the evidence. That's exactly what they want us to do. They have kept us busy for so long. And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you. They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down."
-
Kudos to you Greg for having the patience to deal with Mike here....
I have yet to figure out what he is trying to do, beyond disrupting each thread....
Killing the POTUS is only "high risk" if you're a lone nut with a bad, old weapon and no escape route....
or have seen the actual killers and want to tell someone...
and Kudos as well for a well thought out scenario that includes the use of these exotic weapons...
There HAD to be a reason the killing did not take place at the corner of Elm/Houston... where shooters in the buildings would have the best shots...
the kill shots were to fired from the front and from further down the street...
the motocycles were ORDERED to hang back, behind the limo...
the shot, as told by Kinney and others... hit JFK on the right side of his head...
Humes et al wants us to believe the shot hit below the large wound, from the back....
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.
Mr. BALL - That you picked up off the street?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What part of the street did you pick this up?
Mr. WEITZMAN - As the President's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. It would be the----
Mr. BALL - The left-hand side facing----
Mr. WEITZMAN - That would be the south side of the street.
Mr. BALL - It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It was in the street itself.
Mr. BALL - On the pavement?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Anywhere near the curb?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the curb, something like that.
Mr. BALL - Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Is it possible for a chunk of skull to fly SOUTH EAST when the shot was supposedly from the NORTH EAST
Cheers
DJ
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Yes - I miss Garys INPUT to understand fully your OUTPUT, David
As Mark states... I dont post Gary's emails to me without asking, and rather than asking this time, I posted my side of the conversation...
GMACK's POV is that only Oswald/HIDELL's Kleins order matters... same with DVP who he is CC'ing on every email.... (see my other thread on the topic for DVP's post which basically shows us Gary's position) http://educationforu...57
GM does not think that finding these documents, or proving what Kleins was doing with FC and TS rifles during this period is important enough... as opposed to proving Oswald was Intelligence...
which as we all know was proven years and years ago.
Jim/Karl/Mark... who I've repected and read for many years....and all the wonderful researchers and authors here...
In the 50 years there has not been a single researcher who has requested and seen these HUNDREDS of Kleins orders on D-77?
I am now looking at connecting the seriel numbers on Waldman 4 with the seriel numbers on the 10 packing slips... which in turn matches to VC #'s.
I've also need to request some of these orders I guess... any assistance with that would be appreciated
I honestly think it is amazing that NONE of the rifles from the 10 cartons have not been found... or at least the orders on which they were ordered and shipped....
That not a single person has come forward who ordered a C20-T750 and got the same rifle as Oswald
That not a single person who ordered a C20-T750 and got a TS rifle has not come forward...
And finally that ALL the D-77 orders were not printed or reviewed for other C20-T750 orders and the PATTERN of shipping FC rifles in their place.
Cheers
DJ
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Thanks for posting David... Give us another chance to see how the LNer BLINDERS work....
The order below has some very specific characteristics that are ASSUMED based on some handwritting...
The ASSUMPTION is that Kleins shipped M91/38"FC" rifles for M91/38TS orders (C20-T750) starting some time BEFORE March 1963... or was the HIDELL order the FIRST TIME THIS OCCURRED?
People who have a brain DVP, can make the distinction between THE FIRST TIME, THE ONLY TIME and A PATTERN....
If Kleins was shipping FC rifles for C20-T750 OTHER THAN JUST TO HIDELL - which is what you are saying if Kleins was replacing the FC on the HIDELL order they would replace it on OTHER C20-T750 orders, duh! - then seeing an order with a FC seriel # on it referenced to Waldman's "VC" sheet" and we establish a PATTERN
If there is a PATTERN, the FBI proves the assumption... that Kleins WAS sending FC rifles for C20-T750 from some date forward....
If this was the FIRST TIME, then the FBI can prove the assumption by showing SUBSEQUENT ORDERS with the Seriel#, VC # of a FC rifle shipped for a FEBRUARY COUPON FOR C20-T750...
IF THIS WAS THE ONLY TIME... then you have a problem David (and by proxy GMACK)... You have to answer the question...
IF KLEINS WAS SHIPPING TS RIFLES BEFORE HIDELL FOR C20-T-750, AND AFTER HIDELL, THEN THIS IS THE ONE AND ONLY ORDER ON WHICH KLEINS SENT A FC RIFLE FOR A C20-T750 ORDER...
One and only time? The ONLY ORDER for which an FC rifle was shipped for a C20-T750 order was HIDELL's? How do you explain that?
THAT is why we need to see these orders and THAT is why the FBI has kept those orders in their possession.... you honestly believe that if the Kleins orders help implicate Oswald, the FBI would have simply discarded this valuable evidence? Or were they counting on yahoos like GMACK who prcoclaim that, "Only Oswald's order mattered"
Gary asked "why do yo suppose no other researcher has asked for and gotten copies of those orders?"
And I ask WHY, if we have the microflim, have we not seen the stack of orders for C20-T750 from that cannister and SEE SHAT THEY SAY?
Find some order with FC seriel #'s on them and SEE WHAT WAS ORDERED...
---------------
Has this really escaped research all these years? I only recently found out about D-77, Cadigan Ex #1.... maybe I can get some help with a NARA request?
......
and to Gary Mack in response to yeta nother classic letter :
Your lack of intellectual curiosity and integrity is the only joke here Gary…
Focus Gary… LATONA SAYS THERE ARE NO PRINTS ON THE RIFLE
How can you say Oswald, who was not wearing gloves and supposedly had THAT RIFLE in his possession for over 6 months, let alone the amount of handling of it supposedly THAT DAY…
Mr. LATONA. I was not successful in developing any prints at all on the weapon. I also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon and I processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. And no latent prints of value were developed.
You have no ID of Oswald shooting
You have no prints on the rifle
You have no photos of the bag or clip having actually BEEN IN THE TSBD
You can’t find where the ammo was purchased
The sling is a hand-made oddity
The rifle is seriously a Piece of SH!T along with the ammo
CE399 was NOT INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION yet was connected to the rifle and ergo Oswald…
You have no one seeing him go UP to the 6th floor
You have no one see him enter with a package
In fact Gary, you have very little authenticated, corroborated evidence of anything related to Oswald other than the FBI’s discounting of Carolyn Arnold, and the kid glove handling of Mrs. Reid
What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment. . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water
Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. DULLES. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.
Mr. DULLES. Right.
Mr. BELIN. You went into the building in the main lobby?
Mrs. REID. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?
Mrs. REID. No; I went up the stairs.
Mr. BELIN. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?
Mrs. REID. No; the front stairs.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?
Mrs. REID. I went into the office.
Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?
Mrs. REID. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.
Mr. BELIN. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?
Mrs. REID. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?
Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. REID. Two minutes.
Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?
Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.
That’s it… let her off the hook… there will be no, “So Mrs. Reid, who was in the lunchroom when you left?”
Bottom Line? That you would prefer NOT TO SEE OTHER EVIDENCE in this case is all we need to know…
And the way you continue to spin what little you have to go on is also quite amusing…
What I identified was a means for CONFIRMING THE WCR which suggests that Kleins sent HIDELL a FC rifle… or proving that they didn’t and never did send FC rifles for C20-T750 orders
That you and DVP are so afraid of what these orders would show is also a joke….
One would think you and he would WANT to confirm Kleins business activities…. but proving Oswald did it, or NOT, is not the same as sitting at your desk and saying HISTORY SAYS SO….
You are a scared little man, who only wants to please his benefactors and hide behind the skirt of the government’s telling of history…
I like when you chime in Gary… only seems to happen when you know you have no argument and would rather spin your wheels with me than post on the forum…
the LOGIC behind seeing orders similar to HIDELL’s is lost on you, obviously….
Like there is no value in asking Why, if Oswald was a LN, was the CIA placing him with the KGB and discussing killing JFK and trying to arrange travel to Cuba/Russia… AND FORWARDING THAT OBVIOUSLY INCORRECT INFORMATION TO STATE, FBI and ONI.
So either Oswald WAS involved in a Conspiracy… As Mexico City suggests… or the CIA fabricated Oswald in Mexico City for the sole purpose of incriminating him…
Either way…
How again does this suggest a Lone Nut… as opposed to a conspiracy of one kind or another?
Why on Earth would the FBI care about other orders in the Klein's files other than the paperwork connected with the purchase of one particular rifle with the serial number C2766 on it (which was purchased by Oswald, of course)?
That's the only gun purchase the FBI was looking for -- the one with C2766 attached to it. And that's because they knew that the JFK murder weapon was a gun with "C2766" on it. Any other Klein's order was useless and immaterial to the FBI's investigation. Isn't this obvious?
You, David Josephs, are merely concentrating on all the wrong things (again), in order to make Oswald blameless.
Of course there were many other order forms in the Klein's files that looked similar to Waldman #7. But none of those other orders had the serial number "C2766" written on them, and therefore none of those many other Klein's orders had any bearing whatsoever on the JFK murder case.
So why in the world would those other forms for non-Oswald gun purchases be propped up in any FBI report, or the Warren Report, or anyplace else (outside a forum like this one, which is filled with people who look for excuses 24/7 to exonerate a guilty double-murderer)?
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Congrats Craig... you know how to link to zframes...
You also know that these frames were replaced with frames from the supposed SS copies, from which more copies were made... yet their copies did NOT have the IS images... hence the darkness there during those frames...
You have an explanation for Z341 do you? Sure looks like something went awry on that frame... and the SS had to splice in a frame of their own.... yet no where in the WCR do we hear about a problem with THAT frame... maybe cause they stopped looking at frames right around that spot since according to them, the shot had occurred 30 frames before....
So where are the missing frames? Did the camera original be all chewed up and busted up? Of course it did. Are there frames MISSING from the Zapruder footage in the areas you suggest? Nope, they are all right there. And unless you can go beyond your silly theory that something weird happened you are all hot air, as usual.
We are simply talking frames that are no longer in the "original".
The WCR published the SPLICED FRAMES right here....
And here is Z209.... taken from a copy that did not have the IS area exposed and SPLICED into the original?
Z157 was messed up too... wanna explain who even the SS spliced in frame has the same strange line across the frame as the original, if Life says the film broke right there? Or did they just splice it right at that point and call it a day?
and again at Z341 which goes completely unexplained... Whether there was other alterations is quite obvious... LIFE/NPIC placed shots at 190, 203, 213, 242, 265 and 312... nothing betweewn 222 and 240 where it is obvious JC has been hit with something. He says 230.... How does LIFE and NPIC miss a shot that enables the SBT to work?
Connally's flinch
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Nice job Mike... Quote a post from DVP who posts a letter from GMACK... this is YOU THINKING?
Hi Dave,
So folks want to know about "missing" initials on CE399? The evidence is pretty straightforward, beginning with CD7, p 288:
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=330106,
which reports receipt of the bullet from Rowley the night of the assassination and that both Frazier and Todd then etched their initials on the nose of the bullet. There is no evidence, or reason to suspect, that this did not happen.
Then, four months later on March 31, Frazier testified that the same bullet no longer had everyone's initials because a stain obscured part of it and some of the nose had been scraped off by the FBI lab for testing (3H428):
Will try again, slowly.... ROWLEY was in DC, he is in charge of the Secret Service... TODD was given CE399 by Rowley, in WASHINGTON DC
TODD gives FRASIER the bullet IN WASHINGTON DC
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnson, and Rowley
ROWLEY COULD NOT IDENTIFY THE BULLET as the one he rec'd from Johnson....
Yet TODD tells us that CE399, with his and Frasier's and "others" initials, IS IN FACT THE BULLET HE REC'D from ROWLEY
If Rowley cannot ID ce399 as the bullet he GOT from Johnson, yet Todd CAN ID CE399 as the bullet he got from ROWLEY
... wait for it..... Where did Rowley get THE ce399 he handed to Todd if not from Johnson?
and to address you other link - which is a link to something you actually wrote....
REALLY? CE399 is pointed? THIS is a pointed bullet as compared to the FMJ bullet below and the one pictured at your link....?
And this is what you post to PROVE that CE399 was in Dallas? When you prove the opposite with this post... This proves that the bullet, the POINTED BULLET TOMLINSON IDS LATER
was the bullet he gave WRIGHT, which WRIGHT gave to JOHNSON and which JOHNSON gave to ROWLEY.
It is only when ROWLEY give a bullet to TODD that it becomes the CE399 in evidence....
How is this not obvious to you, and your mentor DVP?
If CE399 was not in Dallas, which you cannot prove it was, it is a completely fabricated item of evidence with the sole purpose of incriminating Oswald
while laughing at the USA for how gullible we are....
I'm now fully convinced, like LEE and the others here... you are a fraud and a xxxxx with nothing better to do... I pity you that you have nothing better to do with your time or life but
be a disruption, a gnat on a bull's ass, a xxxxx