David Josephs

Craig's work with hypotheticals and physics is all well and good... I will let Pat continue to battle it out with him... Problem is the bag these two are discussing WAS NOT THE BAG OSWALD BROUGHT TO WORK... If he brings a bag at all... The only person putting a bag in his hands is Frazier... and that bag, as you can read, is a small paper sack folded over... Not exactly the 3+ foot bag made of shop packing paper...

THE STATE OF TEXAS

COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Buell Wesley Frazier, Age 19, 2439 West 5th Street, Irving, Texas WE 3-8965 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I work at Texas School Book Depository, Corner Elm and Houston. I have worked there since September 13, 1963. I fill orders. About a month ago, I met Lee Harvey Oswald at work. I saw that he was a new man, and I walked up to him and asked him if he was Lee. I figured he must be Lee as my sister had told me about him. I asked him if he would like to ride back and forth with me as I knew his wife lived with Ruth Paine near my house, and he said he would, but only on week ends as he had an apartment of his own in Oak Cliff. After that every Friday evening Lee would ride home with me and then ride back to work with me on Monday morning. He has only rode home from work with me on Fridays, but yesterday morning, Thursday, November 21, 1963, Lee told me that he wanted to ride home with me that evening. I was surprised, and I asked him if he was going with me Friday also, and he said, "No". He told me that he was going home to get some curtain rods. Thursday afternoon Lee rode to Irving with me to Ruth Paine's house, where his wife is staying. I let him out of my car in front of Ruth's house, then I went on. This morning, Friday, November 22, 1963, I got up between 6:00 - 6:30 AM, and got ready to go to work, and then sit down to eat breakfast, about 7:15 AM, me, my mother, and my two little neices [sic] were at the table, and my sister was at the sink. My mother looked up and said, "Who is that looking in the window?" I looked up and said, "That's Lee." I got up and finished getting ready and got my lunch and went to the door and met Lee on the car port. We then walked to my car, it was parked backed up at the side of the car port. Before I got in the car, I glanced in the back seat, and saw a big sack. It must have been about 2' long, and the top of the sack was sort of folded up, and the rest of the sack had been kind of folded under. I asked Lee what was in the sack, and he said "curtain rods", and I remembered that he had told me the day before that he was going to bring some curtain rods. We drove to work the same way that I usually go. We came into town on Stemmons Freeway to Main and Main to Record, and then on across the McKinney and by the warehouse to the parking lot. I parked the car and sit there awhile and run the motor to charge the battery, and while I was doing that, Lee got out and opened the back door and got the package out of the back seat and walked behind the car, then I got out of the car and started walking toward the building where I work. I noticed that Lee had the package in his right hand under his arm, and the package was straight up and down, and he had his arm down, and you could not see much of the package. When we started walking, Lee was just a few feet ahead of me, but he kept waking faster than me, and finally got way ahead of me. I saw him go in the back door at the Loading Dock of the building that we work in, and he still had the package under his arm. I did not see him anymore for about 30 minutes, and then we were both working. Lee did not carry his lunch today. He told me this morning he was going to buy his lunch today. I was standing on the front steps of the building when the Parade came by, and I watched the Parade go by. After President Kennedy had got out of my sight, I heard three shots. I stood there, then people started running by, and I turned, and went back in the building and got my lunch and eat it. I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today, and at that time, we were both working, and we were on the first floor.

Wesley Frazier

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Mr. BALL - Did you see him come in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.

Mr. BALL - Did he have anything in his hands or arms?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, not that I could see of.

Mr. BALL - About what time of day was that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - That was 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL - That was about 8 o'clock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What door did he come in?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, he came in the back door.

Somebody's lying here Mike..... why would Frazier lie and make the bag too small in all its descriptions?

And now it looks as if the Commission itself is not sure which bag is what exhibit

The CHAIRMAN - The Commission will be in order.

Mr. BALL - I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.

The CHAIRMAN - All right.

(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification.)

Mr. BALL - Also for the record I would like to announce that prior to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division, Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled., has been placed in Commission's No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.

The CHAIRMAN - All right.

Mr. BALL - We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142 which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10. I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.

I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper sack is 142.

I think we can call the witness now.

CE364 is a REPLICA BAG made by the FBI http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0492b.htm

CE142 is supposed to be the actual bag.... if they have the actual bag... what in the world do we need a reploica at the commission questioning??? http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0269a.htm

Now a question for the lawyers.... Isn't asking Frazier what Oswald said hearsay? inadmissable in court hearsay?

I know the WC was not a court... but anything learned from what Frazier says Oswald said is useless as evidence unless corroborated... right?

Mr. BALL - Did he say anything about being in the Marines?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; he told me he was a Marine.

Just imagine:

Mr. Ball - Did Oswald say he was going to kill the president?

Mr. Frazier - Oh yes, said it all the time...he was obsessed... every time we drove home... blah, blah, blah...

and finally Frazier's testimony

Mr. BALL - What did the package look like?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

Mr. BALL - It was, what part of the back seat was it in?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was in his side over on his side in the far back.

Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?

Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.

Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?

Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.

Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.

Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?

Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there. I don't--

Mr. BALL - The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there.

Mr. BALL - Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way into town?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL - Did you usually walk up there together.

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL - Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--

Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD - Under his right arm?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his word.

Mike...

Absolutely nothing in Frazier's testimony or Affidavit suggest the bag, if it existed, was anything more than 2' long, and a grocery store type bag.... now look at any of the pictures of the bag being held outside the TSBD - same bag as Frawier describes?

Once again, measuring bags that cannot be physically placed where it was supposed to be other than by the testimony of the same DPD officers, like Lt. Day, who are shown to have told all sorts of interesting stories... precludes the need to compare bags.

Mr. BALL - Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Lamson cannot show us when Oswald made this bag, the WC did not even ask Frazier if Oswald had brought home ANYTHING let alone a paper bag that thursday (unless you can prove it was brought to the Paines earlier, which you cant), we have no idea if and when any rifle in a blanket even existed othe than the testimony of Marina and there is no testimony or evidence when Oswald, who was asleep by 9pm thursday night, could have disassembled the rifle and placed the parts into the non-existent paper bag.

I see no point in discussing the bag outside the TSBD until there is any evidence that Oswald had anything to do with it... Kind of like the Rifle. So Mike - if Craig convinces you of ANYTHING regarding those bags outside the TSBD, great. Ask him to get the bag made, to the Paines and back again... and then show us any physical evidence it was in the TSBD, like the clip.

and yet another absurd example of WC evidence gathering against Oswald:

Ruth Paine is allowed to DRAW A PICTURE of CURTAIN RODS she supposedly found in her garage after 11/22.... and let's please remeber that Ruth has a proven connection to the intelligence community... it's hard to give her credibility when speaking against Oswald... imo.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0097b.htm

Dont have the book handy Jim...

Is it a memo of the process or a picture of the back of a properly cleared money order... maybe even from the same deposit?

I'm having a bit more trouble with the quote than Bill, Mike....

The use of first person suggests a transcript.. there was none, only notes and after reports as bill mentions.

Then there's the little "..." that is obviously leaving something out.... "Jerry Organ" insisting this is what LHO said in an interrogation requires a bit more than his say so... I think that's fair. I've read some of the followup reports... Postal Inspector Holmes wrote one if I remember correctly. I don't seem to remember 1st person quotes as much as he said this or that in this or that way.

Let's find the record of that quote... k?

http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html

On the last page of Fritz's notes we see - 4th. 11-24 Insp Holmes - Sorrels - Kelley et al

http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/haappanen-notes.pdf

Interesting article about the notes and lack thereof...

There is no record of Oswald saying these things.... same ole story Mike... conclusions and discussion based on incorrect information leads to ... ???

and finally on this subject... if anyone, after the fact and without a tape or steno, claims Oswald said this or that.... it's going to be very hard to believe.

http://www.jfklancer.com/Holmes.html and you will find this interesting as well...

On the other hand, I believe the Baker/Truly lunchroom scene never happened... or did not happen the way it was later testified to.... another thread another day...

Here are all Fritz's notes transcribed: If someone has a link to the after reports of the interrogation.. I know I've seen them

Transcription of Captain Fritz Notes From

Oswald Interrogations

Friday, November 22-24, 1963

Note: Prepared by Review Board staff to assist the

reader, but not an official transcription

1st 11-22

B.O. + James P. Hosty

Jame W Bookout

3:15 p.m.

Didn't own rifle saw one at Bldg

M. True + 2 others

home by bus changed britches

Ans Hosty adm going to Russia

adm wrighting [sic] Russian

Embassy + to Hosty

says lived Russia 3 yrs.

Does write over then now

school in Ft W. - to Marines

says got usual medals

claims no political belief

belongs Fair Pl

Hdqts NY off N.O.

says supports Castro Rev.

claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in

to 1st floor had lunch

out with Bill Shelley in

front

lft wk opinion nothing he

done that day etc.

? punch clock

8-4:45 wre not

rigid abt time

wked reg 1st Fl

but all over

speaks Russian

?Why live O.H. Lee

says landlady did that

Terminate interview

with line up

4:15

4 man left to right as #2

Time of filing 11:26 pm Johnson Pres 22nd Precinct 2

F154

Received evidence 1st then filed

2nd Interview 23rd

Present 10:35-11:34

T.J. Kelly Robt Nash

Grant ??

B.O. + myself

Boyd + Hall

Says 11-22-63 rode bus

got trans same out of pocket

says 1 p.o. box denied bringing

package to wk. Denied telling Frazier

purpose of going to Irving - denied

curtain rods - got off bus after seeing

jam got cab etc .85 fare told you wrong before

at apt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes = long sleeve red sh

+ gray tr.

morning 23rd.

says 11-21-63 says two negr came in

one Jr. + short negro - ask ? for lunch says cheese

sandwiches + apple

says doesn't pay cash for wife staying with Mrs. Payne

denies owning rifle in garage or elsewhere admits other

things these

Came there 63 - N.O.

Says no visitors at apt. Claims never order

owns ???? for gun

denies belonging to Com party

says bgt gun 7 mo Ft W. didn't know what Place.

ams to grest ant questioning

Arv. July 62 from U.S.S.R. Int by F.B.I. Ft W

says Hard + Soft meth etc Buddy

says on interview of Payne by F.B.I. He thought she was intimidated

Desires to talk to Mr. Abt. I ask who

says Smith act att.

Says did live N.O. 4706 Magazine St. Frem Apt.

Wked Wm B. Riley Co 640

says nothing against Pres does not want to

talk further - No Pahy at time in past had

refused

Oswald A.C.L.U. member he says says [sic]

Mrs. Payne was too. I ask abt organization

he says to pay lawyer fees when needed

B.O. asks about Heidel selective s. Card - adm having

would not admit signature - wouldn't say

why he had it. Says add. Book has names of Russian

Emigrants he visits - denies shooting Pres says didn't know

Gov. shot

3rd 11-23 - 6:35

Shows photo of gun. Would not discuss photo

denies buying gun from Kleins.

Comp of wanting jacket for line up.

Says I made picture super imposed

arr 10-11:15

4th. 11-24 Insp Holmes - Sorrels - Kelley et al

Chief

Fair enough Mike... let's stay with the rifle in the sack...

I think we'd both have to agree that "sack" would have to be over 3 feet long to hold all the parts.

When you get the chance, read Frazier's testimony or anyone else who say Oswald that morning...

the sack they describe and the sack in evidence are not even close to the same....

and if you want to get into the paper bag you might want to check out some of the existing threads...

Quick sample... the Bag photographed outside the TSBD is about 8 inches wide and was folded over once and then a third or about 20" in total width... the paper at the stations where the bag was supposedly made is 24" wide.

No extra paper was found.... and the tape only comes out wet unless you take the machine apart...

the operator of that station NEVER leaves... eats lunch there....

IT's the chicken and the egg again... if the bag was not made by Oswald, assembled at the station or near by based on the tape... 1)how does he get it home 2)when does he put the rifle in it 3)the bag described in the back of Frasier's car is simply NOT the same... so again... I am okay if you say a half dozen or more metal and wooden pieces in an unpadded paper bag is "OK" for transport... problem is, like the timing, the bag, and rifle were never in contact with each other, Oswald never carried THAT bag, and there is no physical evidence the bag in evidence was ever on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

See Mike... one has to prove all the suppositions that bring us to a conclusion before acknowledging the conclusion even merits examination.

I'll agree to let the rifle arrive safely and the scope in perfect working order if you can get that rifle into that bag into Oswald's hands, onto the 6th floor and him getting there in time to use it... If you can't do those things, talking about whether the shots are easy or not iskinda worthless... right?

The fact that it doesn't is proof that payment was never made to Klein's account.

Can you show us examples of other USPS money orders processed that day to back up your statement above?

reasonable doubt written all over this one Craigster -- Can you show us examples of other USPS money orders processed that day to back up WCR exihibit-statement, your move!

Yah Dave, that's a pretty weak argument from that guy. To suggest that USPS money orders processed on THAT DAY didn't need a bank endorsement or tracking stamp for payment...this is SOP for paying instruments of utterance, such as checks and money orders. Doesn't matter what day, what US bank or what type of document it is. They're all stamped "Paid" when paid.

Not even Von Pein would try to suggest that.

Gil...

While a suggestion is one thing... proof is another. Do you or do you not have an example of what the 1st Bank of Chicago put on the backs of the checks and Money Orders they processed for ANY day that month? Any day at all?

Not disagreeing with your logic... there SHOULD be something there... but are you sure and why?

According to the Gallup Organization, 75 percent of the American people believe that the assassination of President John F. Kennedy was the result of a conspiracy. Gallup polls have found that the 75 percent figure has remained constant over the past thirty years.

In an interview for the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer on PBS, Frank Newport, editor-in-chief of the Gallup Poll, said, “The American public thinks it was a conspiracy. Three-quarters of Americans in poll after poll, year after year, continue to tell us that they do not believe that one man, Lee Harvey Oswald, did it alone. He was part of a conspiracy.”

LNers are out numbered 3 to 1.

Add in the rest of the world and it's more like 10:1.....

We're the only people who still tries to believe that political assassination does not exist in this country... while the rest of the world knows better.... much better.

Sure Mike...

1. In the photo overlay... it is obvious that JFK has a forehead, a Top of the Head, a right Temple, cheekbones, etc...

NONE of these appear on the xray. How is that possible?

2. There is no bullet hole to the left of the particle/vapor trail - if anything the opening is quite a bit lower...

How do these fragments stay in a straight line from back to front when the path of the bullet, if from back to front, is obviously lower?

3. Why do you suppose the face on xray stops at the line of his nose? See all those circles drawn by Parkland witnesses, Bethesda witnesses and the embalmer.... not a single one puts a gigantic hole as seen in the xray at the front of his face, or anywhere else infront of the ear for that matter... (now if you're going to tell me that witness testimony is not reliable we're not going to get anywhere... these people saw what they saw and not a single on has ever drawn a wound as depicted in that xray.... until Dr. Boswell....

4. What do you make of the perfect black circle hovering over his right temple/forehead area? and if you look it is also in the other Fox photo from that angle. It also shows yet again that there is quite a lot of JFK in front of his right ear that simply disappears on the lateral xray...

If you have not checked out the 5 Investigations link to the History-matters site you might want to do that before you comment.

Mantik's 9 visits is pretty important as well.

Batter up!

DJ

One last question... would you or ANY SHOOTER put and carry a disassembled rifle in a paper sack? Isn't that a sure way to bang some parts together that shouldn't... Especially if you have 4 live rounds in there as well?

I am afraid that I have to agree with Craig here Gil....

What I understand you saying is that the First Bank of Chicago would have put their mark on the back, and they didn't.

It would be very helpful to see what a correctly deposited check/MO/anything looks like to compare.

DJ

The question was, "Do you know whether or not this is YOUR COMPANY'S endorsement"

The "It's identical to our endorsement" answer sounds too much like a non-answer answer. It may indeed be almost identical but whether it was his comapny's stamp is another question entirely.

Anyway... I started to look more closely at the two stamp samples we have - your assumption being that this was created after the fact.

Seems to me that while close, they are not identical and whether that is simply stamp wear or what, I thought you might like to take a look.

I imagine creating a stamp is no big deal but why there are such differences in many of the letters, especially the KLEIN'S lettering and the apostrophe is not even close at all... The one Waldman uses on Ex.9 looks newer and cleaner that the older one on the back of the Money Order - single use versus multiple possibly - yet there are difference.... like the tilt of the N in the bottom stamp as opposed to the "I".

DJ

Thanks Lee....

read thru some of the Bledsoe thread - at least the civil parts - and too was excellent. It becomes more and more apparent Oswald was not in many of the places he is claimed to have been...

Reading from Crenshaw's work about Specter I am always blown away by that hypethetical question about the SBT.

"...Assuming that the bullet went back to front and exited the throat... would you consider a wound described as such a wound of exit?"

Tom, as we have seen, has gone running when asked to discuss the xrays and photos he uses as "Proof"

that and any explanation as to why a FMJ behaves differently than designed...

or how a single shot to the top of the head leads to cerebellum and floor of the skull injuries...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17282&view=findpost&p=220202

I hardly believe Tom would run from that David. That is, if you will pardon the pun, a no brainer.

If that's what you think Mike.... yet you too have not addressed the skull graphics I posted and asked you questions about.

I realize you and Tom are not Xray technicians... neither am I. Please help us understand how First - the xray and photo overlay are in ANY WAY CONSISTENT with each other... and Second - please reconcile the images in the other graphic..

and yes, imo the BLACK CIRCLE we see over JFK's right eye is hiding the area in which he was shot... at least one of the shots.

I look forward to it.

DJ

edit: and speaking of No Brainer... are you getting the idea why there had to be a substitute brain for the historical record? JFK's was blasted apart and never sectioned. But that's yet another strange occurance in the world of benign government interaction.

Bernice -

Just a thought..... azre you using the Quick Reply or the Full Editor? Quick Reply does not offer attachments... Have to click on Full Editor.

Don't mean to assume anything about you Bernice... just sometime you start with the simple things... like "is it plugged in?"

If not, you can email me the photos and I can try to attach them....

and thanks again for your ongoing contribution here... as a lover of the photos/videos I have always been happily surprised by what you find and offer.

DJ

Thanks Lee....

read thru some of the Bledsoe thread - at least the civil parts - and too was excellent. It becomes more and more apparent Oswald was not in many of the places he is claimed to have been...

Reading from Crenshaw's work about Specter I am always blown away by that hypethetical question about the SBT.

"...Assuming that the bullet went back to front and exited the throat... would you consider a wound described as such a wound of exit?"

Tom, as we have seen, has gone running when asked to discuss the xrays and photos he uses as "Proof"

that and any explanation as to why a FMJ behaves differently than designed...

or how a single shot to the top of the head leads to cerebellum and floor of the skull injuries...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=17282&view=findpost&p=220202

C'mon Mike....

You gonna waste time arguing POST ASSASSINATION descriptions of the weapon?

Your post earlier was right to the point... HOW TO ALIGN A RIFLE SCOPE requires at least 3 shots in a controlled environment with a 4th to confirm the adjustments.

Please tell me when you believe Oswald did this with THAT rifle so that YOU would be confident as a sharpshooter that after disassembly, transportation within an unlined, unpadded paper sack... and re-assembled... those little adjustments stayed since as you post:

Mr. FRAZIER - When we fired on November 27th, the shots were landing high and slightly to the right. However, the scope was apparently fairly well stabilized at that time, because three shots would land in an area the size of a dime under rapid-fire conditions, which would not have occurred if the interior mechanism of the scope was shifting.

So the scope was working very well 48 hours after the assassination. Still not helping your case here buddy.

So if I understand correctly.. you DO NOT BELIEVE that this "high and to the right" was the condition of the scope during the assassination... yet the scope was "fairly well stablized at the time".

Oswald carried the disassembled rifle to work with the scope already aligned, assembles the rifle... scope is still aligned...

fires the rifle 3 times and leaves it.... the DPD now have it in their possession and within 48 hours after the assassination the scope is working perfectly - only high and to the right...

The scope DOES NOT CHANGE ALIGNMENT during Oswald's journey with it YET

the scope CHANGES ALIGNMENT in the 48 hours between discovery and testing. (you claim the condition of the scope at the time of the shots is unknowable - I agree - yet as I keep eluding to Mike... some things have to happen in a certain order for Oswald to pull this off alone... Using a properly sighted scope HAS to be one of them, no?)

I would have to agree that "high and to the right" does seem to take into account the wind blowing from the shooter's right to left, so whoever left the rifle was at least thinking of that.... or am I making an assumption about scope alignment related to wind?

Explain again how/when Oswald makes adjustments to the scope on the day of the assassination with the wind blowing as it was... or who he knew ahead of time that the wind would be out of the south east... so he could align properly...

and when again was that 4th shot, the test shot confirming the scope was still as he wanted?

DJ

You and Pat can argue all day about this and that test AFTER THE FACT.

Did Oswald use a scope when he was certified marksman in the Marines?

Describe the difference between what Oswald shot in the Marines and the MC found that day.

Does a shooter of any quality use a scope when potentially required to fire in rapid succession on a moving target form that distance?

and finally, talking about what OSWALD did when you have not proven he could have even have gotten there in time is moot.

Get him there first Mike - then talk to me about his scope, his skills and what he needed to do in order for his shooting to be effective.

thanks

All good things in all good time...

- Jerry G... Run for the Roses

Haven't the time right now to review the entire thread, but can I ask if this is what is being put forward?

12 noon -- invitees to arrive (per invitation)

12:15 pm -- JFK to arrive (per Lawson)

12:30 pm - lunch commences (per WC and other sources)

---------------------------------------------

Can someone confirm or correct the above?

If so, does it mean the motorcade should have passed the TSBD at about 12:10 pm?

If all the above is true, it adds GREAT weight to a seemingly remarkably prescient Californian....

Greg... You might want to start at the beginnign of this thread... those questions are addressed in my first post.

CE exhibits 1362, 63, 64 are Dallas Morning News about the route and luncheon

Arrival at Love field at 11:30... Luncheon to START at 12:30.

VIP Invite says 12 noon - I believe I had confirmation of this being an actual invitation by GMack... I'd have to go check emails though.

The real question is "What does the Lone Nut Oswald know and what is his plan?"

If the even is panned to start at 12:30... as all announcements in the papers confirm...

Why is he still sitting in the lunchroom at 12:15?

Who are the people Rowland sees in the WEST window at the same time?

When does he reassemble the rifle and confirm alignment of the scope?

http://www.history-m...Vol16_0488b.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER - All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND - To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER - What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND - Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER - Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND - It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER - Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

Thanks David,

Sorry, but I really am pushed time wise right now.

Can you confirm JFK's arrival time at Trade Mart was set for 12:15 and that this would mean going past the TSBD at 12:10. (I understand where you're coming from and it is important, but I'm looking at a different angle, though probably connected) . Was the 12:15 arrival time for JFK public knowledge?

Those are important questions to me, so any help appreciated.

Okay. Have managed to read through the entire thread. My main interest is if this timeline would have the motorcade passing the TSBD at 12:10. It seems, if on schedule, it would have indeed been passing at that time.

It had to be an "inside" job with up-to-date information being relayed, and not just within Dallas.

This information ups the ante considerably. Well done!

Thanks Greg, that means quite a lot to me coming from you.

But please don't stop with the 12:30 timing... The posts following about the finding of the rifle and Truly talking to Curry is pretty eye opening as well.

and you'll notice that DVP et al has avoided dealing with the LIST that a LN Oswald would have to run thru to even be ready to take those shots... If DVP can't put Oswald in the window at the right time and accomplish all these feats of magic... what has this world come to?

Mike...

start with this thread.. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16336

If you want to discuss timing let's stay in that thread... I am still interested in the ballastics and sniper positions, extra shots, etc... from this one...

But you're probably going to have to reread my looong post or print it... There's a bunch there and you input would be valuable and appreciated.

Please remember this is not about his doing it or not... I am willing to conclude that IF Oswald was up there and the rifle was in decent working order and the scope assisted him in the process he might have actually hit someone... still does not explain the ENTRY WOUND to the front of the neck. Read about FBI agent Elmer Moore... "Moore told one Jim Gochenaur how he was in charge of the Dallas doctors testimony in the JFK case. One of his assignments as liaison for the Warren Commission seems to have been talking Dr. Malcolm Perry out of his original statement that the throat wound was one of entry, which would have indicated an assassin in front of Kennedy"

The early sessions of the WC had to deal with this wound in the front... acknowledge there was no thru and thru shot from the back as described by an autopsy report that is most curious as to origin... they talk about needing to see ORIGNIAL AUTOPSY NOTES (you know the ones Humes burned - another act of an innocent government right?)

And no one has addressed the original question and their tangents... Mike... head back to page one and address some of these concerns please.. this thread is NOT about whether it could be done but what appears to have happened and how it is explained by the WCR and 2why it is eaither correct or not.

On last note about the shots... The hand written notes that are the only evidence of the Z film being at NPIC that weekend includes a time line at the end of Z frames, Shots in frames from the Life pictoral and "Other frames with shots" - (NOTE these notes are at MAry Ferrell's but the printout I have has the address truncated... could someone post a link to these notes?)

All together there are 6-8 shots at varying times along the film.. frames 190, 206, 224, 242, 265, 312 all come to mind but I do not have the sheet infront of me.... Just like Homer said. But I have to agree with Costells here... how does Horne not follow up on this testimony? "6-8 shots but the SS agent there said there were only three....."

After reviewing Horne once again... along with these NPIC notes.... I am thinking that the 2 different sets of boards were both designed to show 3 shot scenarios to 2 different sets of people with only the smallest of overlap... but that's another discussion for another time...

Peace

DJ

Pat,

You never learn.

The 15 yard and 25 yard targets were fired for speed, and not accuracy. Try actually reading Frazier.

Frazier tells us that the first time the weapon is fired for accuracy is on 3/16/64, at 100 yards. Also in Fraziers testimony, and quite easy to comprehend.

In fact the 15 and 25 yard tests were very good for being fired in under 5 seconds. Again, these were fired for speed, and not accuracy.

Now who says that the shooting time was limited to 5.6 seconds? I have often speculated that the event was closer to 8 seconds. So then, how do your shooters compare to that? Quite well actually.

Pat,

I challenge you to find one piece of testimony that says that rifle was fired for accuracy before 3/16/64. Of course you can not. Within 72 hours of that rifle being found it had already been transported to Washington and back.

I am still waiting for you to offer just one single piece of conclusive evidence that the scope was defective at 1230 on 11/22/63.

So far you have not given one credible argument for said same.

DJ,

Man Im sorry I had a hectic day the last few. I will go back over your post and try to catch up.

No worries buddy.... but you've got your work cut out...

You've touched on a few things but not the most important.... Talk to me about what Oswald needs to do, as a qualified marksman, to get from the lunchroom at 12:15 to shooting 3 shots in whatever time you want to give him with a properly sighted, reassembled rifle - unless you can claim that an improperly sighted rifle would make no difference in his ability.

I want to be sure Mike that we are addressing the same issue.... and I don't mean to be flip but you wrote:

Frazier tells us that the first time the weapon is fired for accuracy is on 3/16/64, at 100 yards.

A truer statement was never uttered. I contend one of the ONLY times that rifle was fired for accuracy is on 3/16/64.

Certainly not 11-22-63... at least not for accuracy -

I look forward to your reply...

Hope the BDay came off well and you're feeling better

DJ

Haven't the time right now to review the entire thread, but can I ask if this is what is being put forward?

12 noon -- invitees to arrive (per invitation)

12:15 pm -- JFK to arrive (per Lawson)

12:30 pm - lunch commences (per WC and other sources)

---------------------------------------------

Can someone confirm or correct the above?

If so, does it mean the motorcade should have passed the TSBD at about 12:10 pm?

If all the above is true, it adds GREAT weight to a seemingly remarkably prescient Californian....

Greg... You might want to start at the beginnign of this thread... those questions are addressed in my first post.

CE exhibits 1362, 63, 64 are Dallas Morning News about the route and luncheon

Arrival at Love field at 11:30... Luncheon to START at 12:30.

VIP Invite says 12 noon - I believe I had confirmation of this being an actual invitation by GMack... I'd have to go check emails though.

The real question is "What does the Lone Nut Oswald know and what is his plan?"

If the even is panned to start at 12:30... as all announcements in the papers confirm...

Why is he still sitting in the lunchroom at 12:15?

Who are the people Rowland sees in the WEST window at the same time?

When does he reassemble the rifle and confirm alignment of the scope?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0488b.htm

Mr. SPECTER - Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?

Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER - All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER - What is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND - To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER - What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND - Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER - Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.

Mr. SPECTER - In which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND - It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER - Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please.

first big smile of the day MH... at some point it does become re dic less

Cmon mike - if he wanted to get away with it... he makes sure to use an immediately traceable weapon in a state where they are sold on street corners for cash.?

As the Guinness boys yell, "BRILLIANT !!"

Fair enough Mike,

but no issue re: the reassembly... once dialed in, the scope is rock solid... all $4 worth or whatever?

when did he do this ??

Simply fire 3 well aimed rounds, and then adjust based on those measurements.

As an example

shot 1 is 1" high and 1" right

shot 2 is 1.5 high and 1" right

shot 3 is 2" high and 1" right

The average is 1.5" high and 1" right

Adjust the top elevation dial 6 clicks up

Adjust the windage dial 4 clicks left.

Fire 1 round to verify.

That's really all there is to it.

A LOT of my post was not addresses buddy. alot.

how does he wait till 12:15 to first even think of going up there to decide which shot was the best?

did you even read the post about the bullet marks on the street?

the county records building...

I know I'm in it deeper than you at the moment so no worries...

but how exactly does he compensate for the wind in his scope realignment betweewn 12:15 and 12:30

without firing a shot?

edit: no question about the difficulty of the shot mike. but if oswald is in the lunchroom at 12:15 and 1-3 men are seen with rifles by MANY people on the 6th floor at the same time and we have photographic evidence of these people... what are we talking about?

Jim et al...

Just take a look at Sun Tzu's Art of War to grasp the mindset...

The practiced art of deception, misdirection, and attack from within and without has nothing to do with "context"..

just winning the war.

As long as we engage, we grant credibility where none has been demonstrated.

Is our convincing DVP of ANYTHING the point of these threads - and if so, how fruitless is that pursuit?

Do serious people looking into the assasination actually regard DVP's site, or McAdams the FINAL word...

I mean if someone goes to the trouble to search for info they will most definitely stumble across some counter point to DVP and J.M.... and if they do not search that out... would they have believed any of the counterpoint in the first place?

Mindset.... Influencing the Hearts and Minds of the People...

Now who do we know good at that I wonder?

DJ

Bob Weir from "Black Throated Wind" -

"You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know"

When witnesses ran behind the fence they found a car with muddy footprints on the back bumper and many, many cigartette butts...

Finally, Ray....

do you have anything to add with regards to the ballistics involved? Particle trails, ammo post impact characteristics, blood splatter analysis, xray analysis, photo anaylsis... anything?

As far back as 1966 Josiah Thompson pointed out in the New York Review of books that CE399 was planted evidence:

In order to get control rounds for use in ballistics comparison tests Special Agent Frazier test-fired two bullets from Oswald’s rifle (3:437). Although Frazier indicates only that he test-fired the rifle to get these rounds, it is standard ballistics practice to obtain such rounds by firing into a long tube of cotton waste. When we look at the two bullets so produced (Commission Exhibit 572; 17:258), we find they appear to be virtually identical with 399. Although the Commission appears not to have realized it, a test had been performed which indicated quite clearly that 399 was a plant, that its most likely source was the test-firing of Oswald’s gun into cotton.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1966/oct/06/the-second-oswald-1/

THe fragments found in DC, like CE399 had no trace of human blood or tissue, and they look planted also. THe rifle found in the TSBD showed no sign of recent firing, and also looks planted. No one in Parkland hospital observed a wound in JFK's back, and the Zapruder film shows clearly, as Ayoob observes, that JFK was shot in the head from the right front, with an exploding bullet.

Also, Lee Oswald was not on the Sixth floor at the relevant times, had absolutely no motive to kill JFK, and was also framed for the Tippit muder.

THe HSCA was set up to deal with these problems and prove that the physical evidence was not planted. Blakey came up with the Jet Effect, which Sturdivan's testimony proved was junk science, and he came up with the acoustics which supposedly proved three shots from the TSBD, but the acoustics also turned out to be junk science. Blakey also came up with GUinn's CABLA CADABLA, which supposedly proved beyond doubt that CE399 and the limo fragments were NOT PLANTED. Of course Guinn's cabla-cadabla has also been shown to be junk science, and has been rejected by state and federal courts. Even Blakey himself now admits that Guinn's theory was junk science.

SO all the proofs that the evidence is genuine have ended up on the scrap-heap of history, and we are back to planted evidence.

[Edit From Pat Speer earlier on this thread, further evidence that the rifle was planted

The Carcano found in the building had a severely misaligned scope, rendering it near useless to anyone who hadn't had extensive practice with it

Every time I read the comment about the misaligned scope I have to laugh.

It is purely an ignorant statement.

There is no way to prove the condition of the scope during the assassination.

You would think if nothing else, people would have learned that by now.

Mike - not proving the condition of the scope and it's alignment isn't the point....

As a shooter yourself... if you dissassemble a rifle, reassemble it with the scope on it... would you feel confident that the scope you were looking thru was ready? Is there ANY WAY POSSIBLE that scope was aligned to Oswald the marksmans needs after the reassembly?

How would he know without firing a shot (please remember Mike that we have to take the word of the WCR... all he did was go to the garage, dissasseble the rifle, stuff in the bag Frasier sees and bring it to work... Hide it for the morning... and at the approriate time to be in position to fire the shots he as reassemblied the rifle and looks thru the scope for the first time that day - without firing a shot.)

I prefer we stay focused on what needed to happen for Oswald to have been the successful LN you claim.... instead of the condition of the scope alignment... which if you remember COULD NOT BE SIGHTED CORRECTLY WITHOUT SHIMS.... what would have to occur to allow Oswald to use the rifel and scope to its utmost efficiency...

I mean please remember... two out of three hits on a moving target... with perfect accuracy... are you saying he just got lucky and that luck was his plan - for we know he did not behave like a trained marksman in his preparation.

I want to understand Mike... as you know. A man dedicated to killing the president with a scoped rifle has to have his own plan to set in motion, no? If you can walk us thru this plan, and if it makes sense, I am more than willing to learn.

DJ

Thanks Ray...

You do know that Tom alos believes CE399 a plant, or at least not the bullet that hit either man.. at least that's my understanding of his position.

Now if we can just get Tom to acknowledge the fact about the scope, the reassembly process and what I understand to be the process of re-sighting the scope.

Sighting-in a Rifle Scope

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hunting/traditional-methods/rifle-scope4.htm

The process of aligning a scope­ is called sighting-in. It takes time and patience to sight-in a scope properly. But all that time and effort will pay off when you can fire at a target and have confidence that your shot will be true.

Tom - could you explain the difference between sighting a hunting rifle as opposed to the MC if there is one

http://www.chuckhawks.com/sight-in_rifle.htm

How to Sight-In a Hunting Rifle

By Chuck Hawks

After you have firmly mounted a scope on your rifle and focused it to your eye, bore sight the rifle. Use a bore collimator or do it the old fashioned way, but get it done before you fire the first shot from your rifle. See my article "How to Bore Sight A Rifle" for further details.

I am assuming a telescopic sight because this article is about sighting-in a hunting rifle and all game animals, small or large, deserve your best shot, which cannot be delivered with iron sights. In any case, the iron sights typically supplied with new factory made rifles are so crude that you would probably spend more money on ammunition attempting to sight them in than you would on an economical scope. If you are reading this article in hopes of learning how to hammer the factory rear sight to and fro in its dovetail slot to adjust for windage, you are going to be disappointed.

Once your scoped rifle has been bore sighted for 100 yards it is time to go to the rifle range, which should offer at least 25 yard and 100 yard (or 100 meter) firing positions. If your local range doesn't, find one that does or head for the hills with your portable shooting bench and measure the required ranges as accurately as possible.

Start at the 25 yard position. Put up a large paper target. I usually use an NRA 100 yard small bore rifle target, which has a large black bulls-eye. Get really comfortable on the shooting bench, so that none of your muscles are cramped or in tension. Bring a pillow or a folded-up blanket to sit on (as required) to get your head and shoulders at a comfortable height at the bench rest.

When you are seated and comfortable, position one or more sandbags on the table so that you can comfortably rest the forearm of your rifle (or the hand holding the forearm of your rifle) on them. If you don't have real sandbags, an 8-10 pound bag (or two) of kitty litter works well. (I duct tape the ends of "Jonny Cat" brand bags of kitty litter and they last for many trips to the range.) I cover the Jonny Cat bag(s) with an old blanket for comfort, and to protect them. A commercial rifle rest (I have heard that Outers makes a good one) is probably better than sandbags, but sandbags (or kitty litter) are cheaper. Never rest any part of a rifle, and particularly the barrel, on a hard surface. On recoil the rifle will jump away from a hard surface, giving you a false point of impact.

Because I will be holding the forearm of my rifle in my hand in the field, I do the same at the range. I rest my hand over the sandbag and grip the forearm of my rifle in my hand, just as I would in the field. Try to hold the rifle as firmly as you would in the field. Changing the way you hold a rifle will change its point of impact, so I try to hold my rifle at the range as much as possible as I will be holding it in the field.

Remember that you are sighting-in a hunting rifle. You could probably get somewhat smaller groups by minimizing all human contact with the rifle, especially by letting the sandbags or rifle rest entirely support the forearm. Small groups are desirable, but in this case getting the point of impact correct is even more important. You can always shoot for the smallest possible group size later.

Anyway, by now you should be in a steady position at the shooting bench with the rifle pointed at the 25 yard target. If you are using a variable power scope, set it to the highest practical power. In other words, the highest power that delivers a sharp, clear image. This may not be the maximum power. Many scopes look better slightly below their maximum magnification. For example, the view through a 3-9x scope may look better at 7x or 8x than it does at 9x.

Now load one round into the chamber and prepare to shoot. Put the crosshairs directly on the center of that big, black bull. Before you shoot, close your eyes for 10 seconds and then open them. Did the crosshair drift off the center of the target while your shooting eye was closed? If it did it means that your muscles are under tension trying to keep the rifle on target. Shift your position slightly until you can close your eyes and find that the rifle is still aimed directly at the point of aim when you open them. Now your muscles are properly relaxed and you are in a position to do your best shooting. Go through this little routine before you fire every shot.

Carefully fire one round. Call the shot. If the crosshair was on the center of the target when the gun fired, you don't need to shoot again. If it wasn't, mark that hole as a flyer and shoot again. Get a perfect surprise break.

Okay, examine the target and find the bullet hole. You can probably see it through your rifle scope, and certainly through your spotting scope. (You did bring a spotting scope, didn't you?) Even though you bore sighted your rifle the bullet hole is probably not going to be in the center of the target at 25 yards, but at least it should be somewhere on the paper. Measure (or at least accurately estimate) its distance from the "X" in the center of the bull. Let's say, for example, that single perfect shot hit 3 inches high and 2 inches to the left of the center of the target.

Adjust your scope the number of clicks or increments required to move the point of impact to the center of the target. For example, let's say the instructions that came with your scope advise that each click moves the point of impact 1/4 MOA, which is 1/4 inch at 100 yards. Fine, but since we are shooting at only 25 yards, we will need to multiply the number of clicks by 4.

To move the point of impact down the required 3" at 100 yards would require 12 clicks (four clicks per inch). At 25 yards, remember, we will have to multiply the number of clicks by 4, so turn the elevation adjustment in the down direction 48 clicks (12 x 4 = 48). It is a good idea to go a little past the new setting and then come back whenever adjusting a scope. I'd turn, say, 50 clicks and then come back 2 clicks for a total of 48 clicks down. This helps settle the adjustments of many scopes. I also tap the adjustment dials after setting them, for the same reason.

Now adjust the windage. You need to move the point of impact 2 inches to the right, which at 100 yards would require 8 clicks. At 25 yards that means 32 clicks (8 x 4 = 32). Turn the windage adjustment a total of 32 clicks to the right (usually marked "R" on most scopes).

Okay, now get back into that comfortable position and fire one more perfect shot at the 25 yard target. Ideally, if the scope's adjustments are accurate, it should hit inside the "10-ring" of a 100 yard small bore rifle target. If it does, your preliminary 25 yard sighting is close enough. No need to waste ammunition getting it perfect. You will do that at 100 yards.

If the second shot is not within an inch of the center of the target, you will have to adjust the scope again. By the third or fourth shot and adjustment of the scope the bullet should be landing inside of the 10-ring. If it isn't, something may be wrong. Check the scope mount screws for tightness. They must allow absolutely no movement of the scope under recoil.

Let's assume that your rifle is now hitting within an inch or less of the point of aim at 25 yards. Great, now it will at least be on the paper at 100 yards. Hopefully, it has only taken 2 or 3 shots to achieve this. The rifle's barrel is probably not too hot, your shoulder is still in good shape, and you haven't wasted a lot of ammunition.

Now put up a 100 yard target. You can use the 100 yard small bore rifle target, but I prefer the Outers "Score Keeper" target. It has a central bull's-eye and 4 smaller bulls, one in each corner (which I ignore). Best of all, it is overlaid with 1 inch grid lines, making it easy to see how far your bullet holes are from the point of aim using only your spotting scope--no need to measure. This saves a lot of steps when shooting at 100 yards.

Wait until your rifle barrel has cooled to the ambient temperature (keep it out of the sun), and then get back into your comfortable bench rest shooting position. Remember to close your eyes before you shoot to check for a perfect, tension free hold. This time you will fire 3 shots, slowly and very carefully, at the exact center of the 100 yard target. Take your time and make each shot a perfect surprise break. Call your shots and check each one through your spotting scope. That way, if you call a flyer, you will know which bullet hole to disregard. Re-shoot any flyers so that you have 3 good shots on the target.

Now estimate the center point of impact for the three bullet holes. If you have an accurate rifle and shot it well, they should be within about a 3 inch (or smaller) circle somewhere on the 100 yard target, so this should not be too difficult.

Now is the time to use what you learned by studying the "Expanded Rifle Trajectory Table" on the Tables, Charts and Lists Page. If you did your home work before leaving for the range you should know where you want your bullets to hit at 100 yards to take full advantage of your rifle's maximum point blank range (MPBR).

For many typical long range rifle calibers, such as the .243 Winchester with a 95 grain bullet, 6mm Remington with a 100 grain bullet, .25-06 with 100-125 grain bullets, .270 Winchester with 130-140 grain bullets, 7mm Magnum with 140-160 grain bullets, .300 Magnum with 165-180 grain bullets, or .338 Magnum with a 200 grain bullet, the rifle should be sighted to put the point of impact approximately 2.5 inches above the point of aim at 100 yards. In other words, you should aim exactly at the center of the bulls-eye and the bullets should land about 2.5 inches directly above the center of the bulls-eye. Get it? That maximizes the point blank range of your rifle, eliminating the need to hold over any big game animal from the muzzle out to a distance of about 300 yards (or more) with the cartridges and loads mentioned above. Check the Rifle Trajectory Table for the exact 100 yard point of impact and MPBR for your cartridge and load.

If you are sighting-in a medium range rifle like a .30-30 with 150-170 grain bullets, .300 Savage with 165-180 grain bullets, .30-06 with a 220 grain bullet, .32 Winchester Special with a 170 grain bullet, .338-57 O'Connor with 200-225 grain bullets, .35 Remington with a 200 grain bullet, .358 Winchester with a 200 grain bullet, .416 Rigby with a 400 grain bullet, .444 Marlin with 240-300 grain bullets, or .450 Marlin with a 350 grain bullet, you will want your bullets to hit about 3 inches high with a center hold at 100 yards. This will give you a MPBR of about 200-250 yards, depending on the individual caliber and load. Once again, you will aim at the center of the bull's eye, and adjust the actual point of the bullet's impact to be about 3 inches directly above your point of aim.

Let's say, for example, that your are sighting-in a .270 Winchester rifle using a load that drives a 130 grain bullet at a MV of 3100 fps, and your first 100 yard 3-shot group landed in a 2 inch circle centered 3.5 inches above the center of the target and 1.5 inches to the right. With that load you want the bullets to hit exactly 2.5" above the point of aim (the center of the bull's-eye) at 100 yards, so you need to move the point of impact 1 inch down and 1.5 inches to the left.

For serious sighting-in it is best to adjust the scope in only one direction at a time. Scope adjustments frequently interact with each other (they should not, but in the real world they may); so by changing only one at a time the effect is minimized. Move the elevation adjustment 4 clicks in the "down" direction. That should be 1 inch at 100 yards for the scope in our example.

Now shoot another careful 3-shot group, making sure that the barrel has time to cool between shots. Take your time and do it right. Did the center of the group move so that it is now 2.5 inches over the point of aim? If it did, good enough; if not, you will have to make another elevation adjustment and shoot another 3-shot group. This is where a good scope with precise adjustments really justifies its higher price.

Once the elevation is correct and the center of your group is the necessary 2.5" above the point of aim, go on to the windage adjustment. The rifle in our example is hitting 1.5 inches to the right, so we need to move the center of the group 1.5 inches, or 6 clicks, to the left. Go ahead and make the required adjustment. After the barrel has again cooled to the ambient temperature, fire three more careful shots, always holding on the exact center of the bull's-eye. If all went well, the rifle should now be putting its bullets 2.5 inches directly over the center of the bulls-eye, the point of aim.

If you have the extra ammunition, shoot a final 5-shot group to insure that everything is as it should be. Congratulations, your rifle is now correctly sighted-in.

If all went well you have probably used about a box of cartridges to sight-in your rifle. That's not too bad. I'd stop at the end of that first box and either shoot something else or call it a day and go have a cup of coffee. (Never drink coffee before a range session as it will increase the size of your groups, guaranteed.) You deserve it!

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.sightin.html

This method of rifle sight in is universal for any rifle type, sighting system, caliber and or cartridge. I will explain why at each step of the rifle sighting in process.

1. At exactly 50 yards put up a target that you can clearly see with your sight system.

a. For a air-rifle of reasonable power, 50 yards will most likely be the furthest maximum point blank range in the trajectory path for sighting in purposes.

b. For a rimfire rifle, 50 yards will most likely be the true zero point in the trajectory path for sighting in purposes.

c. For a muzzleloading rifle, 50 yards will most likely be the mid range rise in the trajectory path for sighting in purposes.

d. For a centerfire rifle, 50 yards will most likely be the point blank range in the trajectory path for sighting in purposes.

2. Now with your rifle properly rested on a rifle rest on top of a solid shooting bench, slowly and methodically fire three precise rounds.

3. Make an exact measurement from the center of your group to the center of your target make your windage adjustment accordingly, if you need to go left or right and you have windage adjustable scope bases, use the windage screws on the base, not the scope, rule of thumb for windage adjustment, if your bullet impact is to the left side of target loosen the right rear windage screw on the base and tighten the windage screw on the left rear side of the base.

4. Fire three more rounds to confirm your setting, if all is well and you have centered your group move on to step 5. If you are not satisfied with the accuracy of your ammunition at this point go no further until you have the ammunition you are happy with.

5. Depending on your rifle scope this is all you will be able to accurately do for this range outing, there are a lot of rifle scopes that do not like windage and elevation adjustments all at the same time. Any attempt to keep shooting with one of these scopes will only waste ammo and aggravate you to the point of despair.

6. Establishing a reference zero.

a. Low powered air-rifles and small .22 rimfires, at exactly 50 yards zero your rifle.

b. More powerful rimfires move out to exactly 75 yards and zero your rifle.

c. 30/30 trajectory class centerfire rifles and muzzleloading rifles move out to exactly 100 yards and zero your rifle.

d. High powered rifles move out to 100 yards and make sure your rifle is still center and a little high and then move on out to 200 yards and zero your rifle.

7. Trajectory plotting your rifle and ammunition combination for proper sight in.

Class a and b rifles take your target and move it closer to you, firing 3 shot groups in 10 yard increments, mark the range on the target at each shot group.

Class c and d rifles take your target and move it closer to you, firing 3 shot groups in 25 yard increments, mark the range on the target at each shot group.

a. Continue moving the target closer to you until one group of shots emerges as the highest, this is confirmed when the next target move closer to you the grouping is lower.

b. Congratulations riflemen at this point of the rifle sighting in procedure you have now established a true zero point and more importantly you have found the mid-range rise for your rifle, scope mounting, and ammunition selection.

c. Now measure the center of your highest group on your target to your zero point, this is your true mid-range rise.

d. Is this acceptable, or does it need to be adjusted for more or less rise.

d. part 1. If the mid-range rise is to much, class a & b rifles move your target 10 yards closer, class c & d rifles move your target 25 yards closer to you from your original zero yardage and re-zero your rifle. Then repeat step 7 of the rifle sight-in procedure again.

d. part 2. If the mid-range rise is not enough, class a & b rifles move your target 10 yards further, class c & d rifles move your target 25 yards further from your original zero yardage and re-zero your rifle. Then repeat step 7 of the rifle sight-in procedure again.

Note: Repeat this procedure till you have exactly what you want.

8. Establishing your rifles maximum point blank range.

Now that you have established your mid-range rise and your true zero, it's time for the final step in properly sighting in your rifle (M.P.B.R.).

Class a and b rifles take your target and move it from your true zero point further from you, firing 3 shot groups in 10 yard increments, mark the range on the target at each shot group.

Class c and d rifles take your target and move it from your true zero point further from you, firing 3 shot groups in 25 yard increments, mark the range on the target at each shot group.

a. Continue moving the target further from you until one group of shots emerges as the same distance low as your mid-range high.

Note: Example 2" high, 2" low.

b. Congratulations riflemen at this point of the rifle sighting in procedure you have now established a true zero point, you have found the mid-range rise and you have found your true maximum point blank range for your rifle, scope mounting, and ammunition selection.

Your Rifle Is Now Properly Sighted-In.

Okay Tom, your turn - are these people wrong? If thery're not... when did Oswald have the time to do this after reassembling his rifle?

Thanks

DJ

I didn't know Douglass made that error. Too bad but it happens to the best of us.

The Batey part two will be up tomorrow.

Morning Jim....

Page 285

footnote 380 p.463.

"A person planning to kill the president could have read the Dallas Morning News on Wed, 11/20 which stated the pres. motorcade would arrive at 12:39pm Friday at the Trade Mart. That schedule allowed for five minutes driving time from Elm and Houston.... to the Trade Mart. (CE1364) An assassin on the sixth floor of the Book Depository would have expected the motorcade to pass under the building's window at 12:25"

He does not mention the Nov 19th articles, as well as the one he references on the 20th, that discuss an 11:30 landing time and the route.

He prefeaces this section with the Carolyn Arnold info and does offer the question as to why an assassin would be sitting on the 2nd floor at 12:15 when the limo would be passing the window around 12:25... (I would have added, 'at the very latest given the available information.)

He does mention Reid in the context of Oswald passing her with a coke in his hand... but nothing about Reid's time in the lunchroom or her testimony... or that fact that she spoke to her husband who knew from the radio that motorcade was at least 10 mins late...

Since his book is not a microexamination of these details I feel he at least covers the concept... but that where it ends.

Shalom

DJ

This Thread is about the mindset of the Conspiracy Theorist

To compare... what would then be the mindset of a Theoretical physicist who uses math instead of eivdence?

The Physicist tries to explain a series of events or predict a series of events using the tools available, trial and error, and repetition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_physics

Theoretical advances may consist in setting aside old, incorrect paradigms (e.g., Burning consists of evolving phlogiston, or Astronomical bodies revolve around the Earth) or may be an alternative model that provides answers that are more accurate or that can be more widely applied.

So DVP et al.... All a conspiracy theorist does is use the tools available, trial and error, and repetition to explain a series of events in a manner than makes sense AND leads to other understandings surround the event being theorized about. DVP - YOUR Conspiracy Theory is that there was no Conspiracy... I'm cool with that.

Calling well documented examples of more than one person involved in the events of 11-22-63 FANTASY without proving your point is tantamount to you proclaiming the earth is flat... Since you cannot prove Oswald was in the window with the rifle at the time of the assassination - all your over the top name calling and ignoring of this information just makes you close minded... or a disciple of a doctrine that does not require proof but only FAITH in the source of the information.... be it the Bible or the WCR.

As I posted in the LN mindset thread... To you and your ilk, nothing of significance has occurred in this case since Oswald was arrested at the Texas Theater

Nothing.

And as I reread your posts with that understanding... what you post and why is very clear.