David Josephs

DJ: 3.) JBC is sitting directly in front of JFK ("directly", that is, from Oswald's slightly "right-to-left" perspective of the victims as Oswald was shooting the victims from the TSBD's 6th floor).

score one for DVP

Not so fast.

According to Groden, he has pictures taken from behind which will show that JBC and JFK were lined up in front of each other. These will be in his new book called Absolute Proof.

So the angle from right to left, which is obvious when you are on the sixth floor, is an oblique one.

So much for throwing the man a bone... point taken Jim yet it does seem to me that JC is slightly to the left of JFK as we look from the trunk... so from 6th floor ... yada, yada yada

But I must also say Jim... the if DVP is correct and JC is DIRECTLY in front of JFK as DVp states, then a shot traveling right to left from the 6th floor, exiting the throat SHOULD hit JC in the left shoulder... right?

he'd have to be about a foot to JFK's left for the SBT shot to work...

Thanks again Pat....

This renders most, if not all evidence useless... completely.

Amazing

DJ

The SBT is so obviously true, only hard-headed anti-SBTers have to wrestle with it.

1.) JFK hit in UPPER BACK with a bullet.

and when probed by the lead pathologist and recorded by 2 FBI agents... the wound was shallow, non-transiting and at a 45-60 degree downward angle... no disection of the wound was allowed. The 6th floor TSBD window is at a 17 degree angle from JFK's back at the time of the supposed SBT shot... + 3.9 degrees for the street... oh, plus the back wound is higher than the throat wound - oops

2.) JBC hit in UPPER BACK with a bullet.

and exits after a 25-27 degree downward angle... hits JC wrist on the BACK of the wrist, exits the front and leaves multiple fragments which weigh more than what was lost from CE399

3.) JBC is sitting directly in front of JFK ("directly", that is, from Oswald's slightly "right-to-left" perspective of the victims as Oswald was shooting the victims from the TSBD's 6th floor).

score one for DVP

4.) Both victims are reacting at precisely the same time in the Z-Film (despite the constant protestations from the CT crowd).

not true... as JFK emerges from the sign we can already see his hands clinching and raising while JC sits there without a change in expression.. we see the jacket lapel move... could be wind, could be another shot but there is no way to connect the shot that JFK is already reacting to, to a shot going thru him and hitting JC at the same moment.. then there is JC and Nellie's testimony.. 1 shot, then JC is hit.. 2nd shot. This testimony is supported by the Zfilm

5.) No bullets in JFK.

yet a bullet with minimal damage, no fibers or blood is found on a stretcher... could have been JFK's? Humes felt the bullet could have been dislodged with external cardiac massage... why couldn't CE399 be that bullet? Becuase the SBT would no longer work... and there is no indication that bullet was ever in contact with skin, bone, fibers, blood... but you are correct according to the government's tale of the sitch... no bullet where there should have been... same with the throat wound of entrance... which in itself renders the SBT moot.

6.) No substantial damage in JFK's neck/back to account for a FMJ bullet suddenly stopping dead in its tracks--let alone TWO such missiles, which is the ridiculous scenario that CTers like Farley are forced to swallow.

Since we do not have a sectioned neck, or photos of probes, there is nothing that proves transit thru the body... nothing. Internal Damage could have been the result of a number of different possibilities...

now - I wonder who had access and exclusive control over the limo, bullet and body ???

And, somehow, when adding up #1 thru #6 above, the SBT is a scenario that is not only improbable according to the CT brigade--it's TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

The anti-SBT crowd is off the rails of reality.

Just helping you find the train station DVP... when you finally see the RAILS for yourself, reality might make sense to you as well...

Thank you Lee, Pat... greatly appreciated...

Pat - why do you think these items were excluded?

Doesn't this one action basically make ALL THE EVIDENCE USELESS in a court of law...? Since we don't know what was taken or returned... and if useless in court... it's basically useless.. period.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I hand you an object made of paper, Commission Exhibit 142, also known as Commission Exhibit 626, and ask you if you are familiar with this object?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I am.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did you examine this object, this paper bag, to determine its origin, possible origin?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you conducted that examination?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

I first saw this paper bag on November 23, 1963, in the FBI laboratory, along with the sample of paper and tape from the Texas School Book Depository obtained November 22, 1963, which is FBI Exhibit D-1.

Now that I know what to look for... the bag is part of the Nov 26th inventory list given to Drain

Mr. DULLES. Obtained by whom, by the FBI?

Mr. CADIGAN. This was obtained by the Dallas police.

Mr. EISENBERG. And forwarded to you by the Dallas----

Mr. CADIGAN. By the Dallas police through our Dallas office.

Mr. DULLES. It was obtained after the assassination on that date?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, sir; the night of November 22

Mr. EISENBERG. What about the negative itself? Can you state of your own knowledge whether the negative itself is of the original?

Mr. CADIGAN. Only, insofar, that I know that on November 23, when the vast bulk of this material came in, that it was photographed. Some of these items I saw before they were photographed, and some afterward. But the exact sequence to select one item out of four or five hundred, I cannot, in all honesty, say I definitely recall seeing this before it was photographed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain what the procedure is when a document came in involving the assassination?

Mr. CADIGAN. Initially, the first big batch of evidence was brought into the laboratory on November 23 of 1963 and this consisted of many, many items.

Mr. EISENBERG. 1963?

Mr. CADIGAN. November 23, 1963. It was a very large quantity of evidence that was brought in. There were several agent examiners available to evaluate this material. There were supervisory officials, there were representatives from our Internal Security Division, all of whom had an interest in this matter, and it was decided they wanted certain items treated for latent fingerprints. The basic rule is always that before an exhibit is treated for latent fingerprints it is photographed, and that is what was done in this case.

Excellent as usual Robin... thanks

Is this where the film begins... there is a splice just before this correct? We do not see the 2-4 seconds just before this starts on the 1st part...

I think the point Hargis makes about the limo stopping is pretty significant as well as the extreme slowing of the two motorcycles to the RIGHT rear of the limo... by all indication it looks like they are stopping... and immediately looking to their right as well

you can also see the agent told not to move off the running board on the right of the SS car... he doesn't begin to move until AFTER the headshot...

I will get into analyzing this version a bit... much appreciated Robin... I believe there is quite a lot to learn here

Regards

DJ

edit: is there ANY FILM in which we see Hill jumping off the limo... any photos?

I can't seem to remember any - suggests to me the limo stop occurs at that point and somehow the follow-up car is moved much closer to the limo... problem with that is Altgens at z255 shows the ss car right there.. I thought it was said that Hill ran 85 feet in total to get to the limo...

I did a quick search but did not find what I wanted...

I remember reading that the FBI took all the evidence Friday night - secretly - and then returned it in time to be cataloged as evidence as being turned back over to Drain and the FBI on 11-26.

At the end of his report to Lumpkin Day admits giving all this evidence to Drain... yet I could not find an 11/22 document listing this evidence as given to Drain or any evidence of what was returned....

Is this the smoking gun that shows the FBI had "All Other Evidence", CSSS evidence, at least most of that weekend??

Thanks

DJ

Armstrong covers this in H&L.

Jack

Thanks Jack... as soon as I have a few hundred lying around I will get myself a copy... until then is it okay to post this and discuss it?

Can you paraphrase Armstrong for us? Is this the only mention of the FBI taking ALL OTHER EVIDENCE that night?

I did a quick search but did not find what I wanted...

I remember reading that the FBI took all the evidence Friday night - secretly - and then returned it in time to be cataloged as evidence as being turned back over to Drain and the FBI on 11-26.

At the end of his report to Lumpkin Day admits giving all this evidence to Drain... yet I could not find an 11/22 document listing this evidence as given to Drain or any evidence of what was returned....

Is this the smoking gun that shows the FBI had "All Other Evidence", CSSS evidence, at least most of that weekend??

Thanks

DJ

Whatever this is, note that it is from the GORDON ARNOLD location.

Jack

I assume you are referring to the assassin... and not the Camera... the camera starts over Zap's shoulder and moves horizontal as it pans slightly to the right with the limo... if the camera was from Arnold's POV I'd think the angles be completely different right from the beginning.

DJ

This is the end of the article... http://digitalcontentproducer.com/dcc/revfeat/step_watchmen_0403/index1.html

The physical impact of the shooting itself was done digitally, using a track of the head of the actor playing Kennedy. “Whatever Zack Snyder could see in the Zapruder film was what he wanted,” Hirota says. “Based on that film, we set up a little dynamic simulation of the destruction using Maya dynamics. We used some rigid body dynamics for the bigger fragments and a simpler particle simulation for the blood.”

All of the digital elements were rendered in RenderMan as separate passes, which enabled Hirota to be flexible during compositing, which was done in Apple Shake. (CIS Hollywood acquired the source code from Apple in order to continue using the software.) “We generally try to render in passes if possible just because somebody always want to tweak something or another, and it’s almost always better if you can do that in the comp when you’re near the end,” Hirota says. “It saves everyone’s sanity.

“The key challenge with this shot is that it’s an iconic moment in history. You have a certain amount of leeway with a fantasy environment that obviously doesn’t exist. But because everyone is familiar with this image, we had to approach it with a different sensibility. We had to make sure that everything fit together in a way that your eye can’t detect.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Credit Roll:

Director: Zack Snyder

Visual Effects Supervisor: John “D.J.” Des Jardin

For CIS Hollywood:

Visual Effects Supervisor: Bryan Hirota

Visual Effects Producer: David Van Dyke

2D Supervisor: Patrick Kavanaugh

CG Supervisor: Diana Miao

Lead Compositor: Randy Brown

Matchmoving: Yannix Technologies

“Because the Zapruder film of Kennedy’s assassination is such iconic material and so recognizable, our goal was to make sure we mapped out this entire sequence as closely to the original footage as possible,” added Weldon. “There’s a ton of documentation about this footage online and countless conspiracy theories, with everyone breaking it down and analyzing it frame-by-frame, so we couldn’t get away with anything less than perfect. Additionally, the production considered four different set locations before they finally settled on a parking lot on which a partial practical set – a small hill and fence built up on stilts – was constructed to mimic the Dealey Plaza environment (the rest was added digitally in post). For each of the possible set locations, our artists had to recalculate the scene to ensure that the exact speed, grade and proper distance was represented in these less-than-ideal shooting locations.” http://www.primefocusworld.com/work/portfolio/watchmen-warner-bros-pictures

Phantasmagorical effects abound in Warner Bros.’ Watchmen, which isn’t surprising given its origin as a graphic novel about superheroes. But alongside the film’s otherworldly visual effects, Director Zack Snyder employed effects to recreate—with notable twists—famed events in history. Among the milestones depicted in Watchmen is the 1963 shooting of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas.

For this, the film’s Visual Effects Supervisor John “D.J.” Des Jardin called upon CIS Hollywood.

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/dcc/revfeat/step_watchmen_0403/

Mystery solved... Greg et al... guess we found the people to do the recreation of the OTHER film...

Here is another version of the same thing except this time we have opening credits and ending credits while the

gunman smokes a cigar...

Casting by Kristy Carlson, CSA

Visual Effects Supervisor

John "DJ" DesJardin (only coincidence that I sign DJ, I assure you)

DJ

Thats a CGI animation isn't it ?

I've not seen it before so I'm not sure where it comes from...Maybe a video game or something ?

You may have something there.. JFK Reloaded was the game... yet the few youtube vids of it dont' seem to be as real looking as the first one I posted, definitely more "animated"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIAYssqjhU&feature=related

This "game" is a sick joke...

JFK - The Zapruder Film - What REALLY Happened.....

A poster named Mobilecheese posted this...

It's eerie... it's a wider angle as Greg mentions... but it is NOT the film as he described.. it's an over Zapruder's shoulder POV and we see a rifle in someone's hands at the very end of the clip

If one goes to the poster's youtube page, Palamara is a "friend" and it says the content is from Ireland....

Would have thought by now that I'd have seen this in all the searches I do... this is the first time for me...

Y'all know about this?

Apologies if I'm coming late to this party...

DJ

Has anybody ever attempted to film Elm Street from inside the west enclosure of the north pergola?

Could a cameraman get a view of the corner turn and the underpass escape from that windowed pillbox?

Could the result be matched to any memories of the "other" film?

David,

I cannot see how it's possible to film ANY movie from behind Zapruder and maintain the line of sight of the Zfilm.... not with a single camera at least...

Look at this composite.... a camera would have to swing, physically move horizontally many, many feet to maintain the view of the limo... I would think there needed to be at least 3 cameras... left, middle and right to catch all that action and at similair line of sights as Zapruder... guess we have to see if there is evidence of any cameras in/on the pergola behind (and would have to be above) Zapruder...

DJ

Excellent point John...

I went to DP in 1994 and it literally changed everything... when one sees the "bowl" of a shooting gallery that spot, that street, is... and how unbelieveably small everything is.... the culpability of the Secret Service is hard to ignore... as soon as the limo turned onto Elm it should have continued speeding up and been out of there...

Absolutely no reason to slow the limo or to be traveling less than 8 mph down that street... NONE. Especially after we see how easily it was for the limo to accelerate and leave as quickly as it did.... {sigh}

Has Greer ever offered anything to explain the severe slowdown?

What Greer should have done http://assassinationresearch.com/v4n1/v4n1chapter08.pdf

The relevant rule set forth in the Secret Service document outlining principles of Presidential protection states: “The driver of the President’s car should be alert for dangers and be able to take instant action when instructed or otherwise made aware of an emergency [emphasis added].”45 Former Inspector and Assistant Director Thomas Kelley told the HSCA: “… generally the instructions to the drivers of the cars are to be prepared to get the President away from any dan-gerous situation.”46 For his part, Chief Rowley wrote to the Warren Commission: “The Secret Service has consistently followed two general principals in emergen-cies involving the President. All agents are so instructed. The first duty of the agents in the motorcade is to attempt to cover the President as closely as possible and practicable and to shield him by attempting to place themselves between the President and any source of danger. Secondly, agents are instructed to remove the President as quickly as possible from known or impending danger. Agents are instructed that it is not their responsibility to investigate or evaluate a present danger, but to consider any untoward circumstances as serious and to afford the President maximum protection at all times. No responsibility rests upon those agents near the President for the identification or arrest of an assassin or attacker. Their primary responsibility is to stay with and protect the President.”47 [Emphasis added.] In addition, the Secret Service liked to maintain speeds of at least 20–30 miles per hour during motorcades.48

Altgens 6 should have shown 2-3 agents running to the limo, Kellerman climbing over the seat and all the occupants of the limo pushed to the rear as the limo accelerates....

Glen,

1) The film I saw was shown for training purposes. I do not know "who" possessed [read:owned] the film that I saw, but I am sure it was NOT an individual.

2) The "secrecy" seems to be related, IMO, to the gross negligence (at best) --or the complicity--of the Secret Service Presidential Protection Detail as

demonstrably evident by their inaction and by several breaches of protocol.

3) Although I didn't see it on any TV station, Milicent Cranor saw it as Jack reported and Scott Myers saw it on television.

4) I was in no position to ask such questions at the time even if I had thought to ask them.

5) I have never expected anyone to take my word for it. I understand the reluctance. I would respond in exactly the same way.

I wish I could be more helpful, but that is all I know.

Hey there Greg...

You mentioned you couldn't related the circumstances... maybe a couple of questions then?

- Was the film a "film", beta, VHS, DVD, ???

- It was definitely the assassination... not a re-enactment, a training exercise, etc...

- Trying to understand Altgens 6 then... regardless of the z frame... at no point is the Queen Mary 85 feet or even 25 feet from the limo... Altgens seems to show it about the same distance as the Nix/Muchmore films...

- you don't remember any glaring differences in the movements of any one individual? JC's getting hit AFTER the sign or do you get a better view of his being hit... once, twice?

- does it end the same way? limo speeding away under the overpass with the GK fence?

- did the other vehicles stop when the limo did or just slowly close the gap?

Greg, I printed your posted description and now keep it with me... I for one believe you and the others have seen it.

Given how much gets on the internet, it does seem strange that this version has not been more widely seen... or talked about.

as I mentioned elsewhere, if Zapruder filmed without the telephoto setting, would it make sense that this film would be cropped/edited/painted/etc from this to emulate a telephoto image?... it would be of better quality since it was the true out of camera original... just a thought, I know there are photogrpahic realities to difference lens settings... so not sure if that could even work...

Thanks again Greg - the idea that some on this forum have known this for years, obviously, and do not make more of an issue is surprising to me... the film appears real and has been seen... what other possible explanation is there?

Thanks Duncan... sounds to me like Henry Hill explaining his non-role, role in the Mafia...

"Never knew Oswald"

"forgot everything from the bottom of the ramp till I was on the floor"

As a member of the Mafia... imo, he can be counted upon NOT to tell the truth about anything.

Excellent find

DJ

OK Greg, thanks for your answer.

What you are saying is that you have seen a film where the JFK limousine came to a full stop at the exact moment when the presidents fatal head shot occurred?

Sorry to be a pain, but in my world these claims are mind boggling.

Glad you got back to that Glenn... if what Monk is saying is even remotely possible, it is indeed mind boggling

What makes sense as a possibility to me is a complete, non-telephoto lens film, shot from/by Zapruder's pedestal and then edited within the frame... maybe this process makes the intersprocket area "more" possible... Two films from Zap's location seems to make no sense since if you move the camera closer or father away, there is no way to keep the same angle during the entire panning... the camera would have to move side-to-side pretty significantly for every foor from the original Z location....

Greg, if Zap's film was at 24.3fps (or even slow-mo 40fps) instead and not shot thru a telephoto lens, would alteration of the "original" make more sense to you after what you've seen?

Finally, if the 85 feet between cars is right, something is VERY wrong... in the extant Z film the Queen Mary is following behind by about 6-8 feet... the ONLY way Hill makes it to the limo from 85 feet is if the limo virtually stops... and even then at 20mph it takes him 3 seconds to overtake it...

Greg - what did you see with regards to Hill chasing the limo?

and thanks for the revelation... not sure about others but this is pretty amazing stuff to me...

I've been using your recently posted images yet they still only come down at 72 pixels

A shot from the drain MIGHT be somehow reflected in the limo itself, especially at the angle of the camera and such.

You will notice the drop to the wheel of the limo from 349-350... suggesting to me what "might" have been seen was made to be out of frame...

But I need much better resolution images to even tell

DJ

If the camera was NOT on telephoto as they claimed... could the alteration zoom to within the frames and create the illusion of a telephoto image thereby allowing for the large chunk of grass during the head shot sequence and then return to "normal" afterward....

always appeared like a bit of Ken Burns the way the camera "pans in" to JFK when in reality the limo was traveling AWAY (slightly southeast) from the camera's position as it passes

Occupants of the limo either "duck for cover" after the head shot, or are thrown forward due to sudden braking ?

I've seen it questioned as due to sudden acceleration after the stop during the head shot, meaning I suppose that the stop occurs while Connally is turning and writhing, then he flies forward as Greer hits the gas. But I wasn't there and can't judge.

Good thread.

You have it backward.

Brakes throw people forward (Newton).

Gas (acceleration) throws people backward (Newton).

Jack

Tsk! - too sleepy last night, I guess. Glad I didn't drive.

Hi David... may be backward but I believe you have something important... that little fall forward of the occupants of the limo always seemed out of place unless there was severe braking, even at 8mph or so.

Go to the stabilized Z film... (I have to believe that at least most of the images in the film, not those of JFK, are a representation of "X" amount of what really happened) but at the 12 second mark just as Kellerman is turning back for the 2nd time, his head goes from bright sunlight to pitch black in 1-2 frames {will post once I can again}

and then the limo accelerates away. During the limo stop you would suppose JC and wife would "duck and cover"

but the SS ?? It's shameful the way Greer cowers besides Kellerman... One would expect he's be jumping into the back seat to PROTECT someone Concentrating on the SS agents in what is left of this film.. it just makes you want to scream...and then throw up.

Standing on your little soapbox and screaming "A-B-C" when the rest of us are talking about "X-Y-Z"

whatever.

Craig, you present yourself as an expert with regards to photographic and by inference film/video/digital imagery

a TEACHER is not supposed to have a political agenda.. If you are saying that using the Oxberry and the skills available in 63 make it impossible - show us why,

if you agree that it was even remotely possible... one would think you, of all people, would be the MOST interested in how "they" did it.... be the most amazing compositie job in history and you don't even want to investigate the possibility? - and this is your livelihood along with JFK your hobby??

WTF are you doing Craig then? disruption just for the sake of it?

Then, you skip over all this MATH and only talk about the comparison of what we see in the films to the MATH... and then, out of context?

Later, when I found that I had incorrectly applied Hill's differential speed to the entire distance, I corrected myself... but there were still MATHEMATCAL problems... looking at the film only occurs after the MATH... and NOT in determining speed but relative position of the objects by frame and framerate...

thanks agian for showing me the errors of my way... you truly are an asset to this forum

Peace out

DJ

My original post:

How does Clint Hill catch the limo?

At 9.8mph the limo travels 14.4 feet per sec

Hill is off at 313 and reaches the limo at 337 = 24 frames

24 frames / 18.3 fps = 1.3 seconds for Hill to reach limo

Limo travels 18.85 feet at 9.8 mph in 1.3 seconds

Hill is approx 12 feet from limo at 313 which equates to 6 feet from the running board to the front of the Queen Mary plus the 6 feet or so from the QM to the limo...

Total run of 30.85 (18.85 + 12) feet to be covered in 1.3 seconds requires Hill to sprint at over 25mph if limo travels at 9.8mph

If Hill runs the expected average speed of 11.2 mph the limo must be going 2.5 mph for him to reach it in the 1.3 seconds we see.

18.3 fps

9.8 mph

51744 feet per hour

862.4 fpminute

14.4 fpsecond

313 hill off

337 hill on

24 diff

1.3 seconds for 24 frames

18.85 distance at 9.8 mph

12.00 distance from Hill to Limo at 313

30.85 Total distance to cover

25 Hill's speed

15.2 mph differential

80256 feet per hour

1337.6 fpminute

22.3 fpsecond

1.38 seconds needed to overtake limo

If the limo was traveling at 5mph Hill need only run at 16mph to reach the limo... which for a short sprint is possible... it would also result in Hill running at 11mph FASTER than the limo

In the Muchmore collage... from z323 to z333 – about 1/2 second – Hill gets from the front of the QM to the rear of the limo... IN WHAT APPEARS AS A SINGLE STEP –

Step at 318 - left foot

Step at 323 - right foot

By 326 he is accelerating away from SS car and towards limo

Step at 328 - left foot lands on street – by 329 left foot is planted and right foot is moving forward

Between 326 and 329 it appears as if the entire scene in the street has moved west and between 326 and 337 Hill’s left foot has moved considerably down the street – it does not appear as if Muchmore changes her position other than panning left.

Step at 333 SHOULD be right foot on the ground yet left foot still on street but seems to have moved from being in front of Jean Hill to being WEST of Moorman

Step at 337 is right foot ONTO LIMO – notice how far to the west his left foot has moved... from landing in front of Jean to being noticeably west of Moorman

If the limo stopped, then the QM and some of the closer following vehicles would also have had to stop... especially the QM or else it would have hit the limo. After this analysis I feel as if the limo slowed down severely right before 313. The jerkiness of the Nix film thru this sequence is almost absurd and there are definitely frames missing. With many of the other vehicles “stopping” due to the severe slowdown of the limo, the assumption could be easily made that the limo “stopped momentarily” when in reality it was simply inching along.

By watching the stabilized Zfilm it is obvious the limo slows considerably just before 310 as we see the motorcycles ride up beside the limo... given the closeness of the QM and cycle escort, there is no reason to assume the QM or cycles would change speeds significantly during the motorcade... especially BOTH cycles as wee see in the Zfilm just before 313.

DJ: is this the statement you are hanging your entire rebuttal upon Craig? That we can see something in the film, make an assumption and then go back and check the math... as in, does the limo going at 8/9/10/11.2mph during 301-337 make sense with what Hill accomplishes? and how fast must Hill be going to accomplish this? There is no GUESSING speed by looking at the film

So maybe one of our resident experts can explain how this happens and is accomplished on film as well as it jiving with Altgens testimony that from z255 to z313 the limo traveled from a max of 40 feet away to 15 feet away... or moving 25 feet in 58 frames... the limo either has to be going 5mph that entire time or the foreground and background do not match the street scene as we see it in Zapruder.

So who is Mr. D.F. Drittal?

The man on the gun order who acted as his character witness?

I believe you've written that Drittal is Hidell is Oswald.... but I've seen no evidence that Oswald ever used the Drittal OR Hidell names - and you haven't provided anything to refute that David (and I am not referring to the orders, or the three wallets - confirm the use of Hidell by Oswald anywhere prior to the weapons orders).

Only that the writing on the gun order form for Hidel isidentical to Drittal - whoever filled it out also signed as a witness - pretty obvious... {still can't upload images}

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1605

Jack... if the storm drain is even more possible,

the "covering up" of the fence area in Cabluck... the obvious alteration...

takes on a bit more meaning

{I cant upload either... if you look at cabluck, the gray box covering the fence in front of the storm drain "entrance" if you will.. is comical. could be our copies, but Jack has been aware for a while it seems...

cheers to you John C, btw...

Keep the wind at your back

DJ

btw - you're dead on with zapruder...

can't even make out his glasses... not in ONE image

...if the angle of the film you saw was "basically" zapruder's, and we know if a camera is not on the same plane the image has to look different, and the vast amount of panning the scene entails, dont we have to conclude THE film was taken on that pedastal from which all films were ultimately made? and you got to see a film much closer in generation to the film made that day, than anyone else...

"no matter how paranoid you are, what the government is really doing is much worse than you can imagine"

Thanks Greg... this is facinating...

In what you saw, during the limo stop... how much more possible is the storm drain shot...

UP doesn't happen when the shooters are above the target, right?

There is absolutely no question as to whether or not the limo came to a complete and FULL stop. The car stopped. Completely. No motion whatsoever. The limo

remained motionless for approximately 2 seconds. I'm surprised the Queen Mary didn't rear-end it. The head shot most obviously came from the right front. A

detail that is missing from the motion of JFK in the extant film has to do with the difference between: "back and to the left" --and--"up, then fall to the left".My recollection is that he was "lifted up" from his seat to a discernible degree before falling to his left. This "body motion" appeared to be much slower than the jerky,

abrupt, "snap" seen in the extant film.