David Josephs

Hope this is declassified...

Thanks again Greg...

seems NO 100-16601 comprised a whole bunch of interviews... what I found surprising was this

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_826.pdf report about Oswald in NO....

There are 6 different NO T-#'s for informants reporting on Oswald... SIX!

How does that jive with the FBI not being interested in our boy Lee??

DJ

Greg and DJ, thanks for staying connected to the forum. Your posts are always looked forward to by me.

And Greg, a special thanks for the recent update on Jack.

Thanks Michael... greatly appreaciated and the sentiment is equally returned.

Hope this is declassified...

Thanks again Greg...

seems NO 100-16601 comprised a whole bunch of interviews... what I found surprising was this

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_826.pdf report about Oswald in NO....

There are 6 different NO T-#'s for informants reporting on Oswald... SIX!

How does that jive with the FBI not being interested in our boy Lee??

DJ

Hey David,

All is good here. Thanks for asking.

The FBI report I have is mildly interesting, perhaps entertaining is a better word for it. It refers to a "sling" used on the gun (not a strap). Here is a brief excerpt from one part of it, dated December 24, 1963:

"On December 18, 1963, Mr. ADRIAN T. ALBA was contacted at his place of business, Crescent City Garage, Inc., 618 Magazine, New orleans. At this time he was shown photographs of the device utilized as a sling on the rifle of LEE HARVEY OSWALD. Mr. ALBA said he had never seen OSWALD with the likes of the contraption shown and expressed the opinion that it definitely had never been intended at the time of manufacture to be used as a rifle sling. He reiterated, as on previous occasions, that he and OSWALD had never discussed rifle slings or like devices for use in the firing of a rifle."

FWIW

Excellent... can you lead me to this report? Purvis seems to believe that he helped create this sling yet I find nothing top support that statement....

and if indeed it is the opposite... Tom has some 'splaining to do...

DJ

Good to be on the same path with you BK.... maybe we can get some comments from the LNers??

Maybe you could post the link to your earlier attempts - or were they met with silence from the DVP crowd?

The one in the backyard photo looks homemade from some rope.... even looks tied in a knot at the barrel end.

I assume you've determined that Oswald never bought a strap or owned an Air Force pistol holder?

Is this HUGE??? Jim?

DJ

David,

Why do you have to bring the Lone Nutters and DVP into it?

I mean, the strap is what it is, and if indeed it is a USAF pistol holster strap, what does that mean?

I no longer think or care what Lone Nutters think and care about unless they interfere with my research.

The strap is important to me because I think that if the rifle was used in the assassination, then perhaps the ammo came from the same source as the strap,

and if we can identify the source of the strap, we can possibly identify the source of the ammo.

BK

Bill,

If you're referring to the spent shells found on the 6th floor...the source of the ammo was Western Cartridge Company. It was purchased from them by the US Marine Corps in a batch of 400 THOUSAND in 1954.

As for the strap, the FBI did an extensive search for its source to no avail. In fact, in their report (which I have here somewhere) they concluded that (get this) it might have actually been a guitar strap! I jest you not, that's what it says. I'll see if I can scan it and upload it later.

Greg...

pretty sure that Tom was right about what the strap was made FROM... just that I cannot find evidence where Alba helped with his rivot gun, or even says he did.

Kinda of interesting though that Oswald would bo so cheap as to not buy a strap, ammo or a clip at the time of the purchase yet winds up using ROPE.. (same as the rope that wrapped the blanket I wonder??)

practicing multiple times at multiple locations (again... that's a lot of ammo with no purchase record) and then at some point PAY for a new strap that cannot even be used to fire the rifle as configured...

and what about the holster for the pistol... where exactly did that come from?

Good to hear/see ya Greg.... hope all is well in your world

Peace

DJ

Maybe you are referring to this bullet lodged behind JFK's ear?

dup

Tom,

Been looking thru the testimony and cannot find where anything was added to Alba's testimony for the HSCA... they simply reproduce the WCR testimony and there is no mention of the sling there.

And I've looked elsewhere... can you link to Alba discussion the making of the new leather sling?

Thanks

DJ

Tom:

Adrian Alba was a good witness at one time. Many, many years ago.

As time has gone on, his credibility has severely dissipated. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

Secondly, excuse some of us if we don't buy FBI agent Frazier wholesale. He is the guy who got a bullet on the evening of the assassination that did not match the one found by Wright and Tomlinson at Parkland. He also got that bullet before it was turned over to Elmer Lee Todd at the White House. And Todd was supposed to be the guy who gave the Wright-Tomlinson bullet to him.

Did Frazier ever say anything about this?

"Did Frazier ever say anything about this?"

1. Frazier stated that he received one virtually intact bullet and various other fragments of bullets.

And, although I personally caught him in what appears as an attempt to misrepresent exactly where he got his spectrographic analysis information to which he testified, my latter experience in old age tells me that it just may have been one of those "memory" things.

2. ADRIAN ALBA:

When one takes into consideration the fact that Adrian Alba was a charter member of the "MINUTEMEN", as well as the fact that he was arrested at a training camp which was also located on the north shores of Lake Ponchetrain, then one comes to understand exactly why he may want to suffer a memory lapse also.

As I have indicated many times before, LHO/aka the "squirrell" was insuring that he left his false trail/scent at a wide variety of suspicious locations.

Alba's later (HSCA) recollections in regards to the leather strap sling should have been pursued much farther by those who questioned him.

Especially when one takes into consideration his prior "MINUTEMEN" record.

Plus his direct-line family ties to a former aviator who just possibly would have worn a shoulder holster pistol.

The "Alba Scam" on the part of LHO is little different than the other scams he was pulling in leaving his "scent" at a wide variety of pro as well as con locations.

Certainly glad that I have not wasted that much cerebral capacity "chasing up an empty tree"!

Was wondering why Oswald did not create a Hidell DoD ID that already

includes a picture as opposed to the SSS one that doesn't.

And what is that stamp dated 10/23/63... where and when de he receive that?

Thanks

DJ

on the reflection of the limo ,frame 289 you fist see Brehm, frame 300 is Hill , frame 303 is moorman, 316 is the lady in the mid grass, 345 is altgens, but the reflection is in the wrong frame it should be in frame 351 or 352

Altgens, in z345, is the photographer to the right, closest to the curb... he would not be reflected in the trunk until z349-z354..

And I do think we see his image move on the trunk as the limo passes...

as a side note... I've always felt that on the best Zframes we could also see GK reflections... I just don't have those frames to examine...

Cheers

DJ

Hi Greg...

Always thought it was one or the other when panning?

Either the background is blurry because the panning and object moving are in sync..

or the object moving is blurry and the background is clear, if the panning pauses just for a few frames..

You probably have a better frame than this... seems there is quite a lot of blur in total... so who knows what the camera was doing at that instant...

David,

If you note the approximate rate that each object pans across the frames from right to left, Hill and Moorman appear to "move" across at a consistent rate during each. They appear to be moving out of frame from 300 to 301 to 302 to 303 to 304 at a consistent clip, IMO. If unaltered, why would that one single frame (303) show them to be so crisp? It was a duration of 1/18th of a second.

It also looks as if z298 does the same thing... if the limo was going VERY slow... as I believe it was (less than 3mph) a slight hesitation in the panning could produce the frame we see...

and in 298 I think we see the occupants of the limo blur slightly (I have a gif on the right .. )

btw - in the film you saw.. anything to add about Altgens, Jean and Mary? Was Altgens in frame at the time of the headshot?

Thanks and no worries if you'd rather move on re: what you saw...

DJ

There is also another example of a blur issue in Frame # 303. Notice how incredibly sharp Hill and Moorman are in that frame. Actually, they are IMPOSSIBLY sharp for that single frame. Since Zapruder is panning to keep the limo in sight they should be consistently blurred because they are stationary. The only way that both the limo and the stationary objects should all be clear is if and when the limo stopped.

Hi Greg...

Always thought it was one or the other when panning?

Either the background is blurry because the panning and object moving are in sync..

or the object moving is blurry and the background is clear, if the panning pauses just for a few frames..

You probably have a better frame than this... seems there is quite a lot of blur in total... so who knows what the camera was doing at that instant...

and isn't Jean looking at her MC boyfriend? Yet that seems to contradict her testimony

Mr. SPECTER - Start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened.

Mrs. HILL - Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we. had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he drew even with us.

Mr. SPECTER - And when you say "he" you mean?

Mrs. HILL - The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat---he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots.

We do not see this happen in the Zfilm at all.... unless at 293 she yells yet immediatley she turns her head away from the limo...

We can easily see Jean's read coat enter and move across the limo's trunk from the Z angle...

Yet for some reason I don't see the same movement as Altgens crosses the limo's trunk, and he was even closer to the curb than Jean..

Shouldn't we see his image move across the trunk as well?

the fact is there was no blood on the trunk during Jean's trip across it... the trunk should have been covered in blood

bythe time it reaches Altgens... unless it was already past and the z film was altered...

Hi David,

If Muchmore was standing next to Bond, which I believe she was, this might give you an idea of her FOV.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/BOND-1.gif

chris

Hey there Chris...

Now what about the idea of this earlier removal of frames and the movement UP the street some 30-40 feet

of the action? The syncing of Zap to Nix to Muchmoore is reallt a much simpler process than initially thoughts... yes?

Having film break was not an uncommon occurrence. It being called a splice is another matter, which is what is done to a film when putting the two broken ends back together. So the original film was broken and then repaired. The copies made before the original was damaged were not broke, thus they still show what is missing from the original.

"36 frames have been removed ...." ??? Have you thought what the limo's rate of progression would look like had the type of frame removal you described had been accomplished?

Bill... as I asked David... the question is not HOW (at least not in this thread)... the question is whether or not the claim that "syncing ALL THOSE FILMS would be impossible"...blah, blah

is as big an overstatement as it appears.

When in reality there is only the 2 to deal with... Zap doesn't cover the turn... so no syncing needed there

and no other films show the limo before 133 up to 272 and Muchmore... 295 or so for Nix...

IF these frames are removed anytime prior to 272, and numbered where z133 should have been z179... M01 = z272 & N01 = z295

Everything syncs up fine...

So forgetting the process for a second, please address the concept.

thanks

DJ

<snip>

lmao anyway...

"36 frames have been removed ...." ??? Have you thought what the limo's rate of progression would look like had the type of frame removal you described had been accomplished?

perhaps you can tell us when you viewed the alleged in-camera Zapruder film original at NARA? Verifying no frames were or have been removed? You watch "altered film-video clips everyday.

BTW, Any 'Hollyweird professional' optical film printing technician of the day (circa. 1963-64) could remove 36 frames from the Zapruder film and you'd be none-the-wiser. That's their job dude, alter, fix, mend, repair original film footage. In other words, bring location-studio footage in-tune with the script. Dig?

I had hoped to hear from you David...

To address a point, as long as Nix and Muchmore sync up after 272... there would be no other syncing issues... agree?

And second, would removing these frames during the turn also result in the same thing?

Since we dont have the turn in Zap to compare to Martin, Towner, etc... there are no sync issues

and frame 133 is actually 177/8/9 or so...

Thanks DH

DJ

Interesting, Thanks. I know the Roscoe White theme, and E. Howard Hunt. I'll have to explore the third falla.

My opinion: In the resized Bell film, you can see a man with a rifle shooting. Next and to the back of him you see a spark. So there were at least 2 people shooting at the President from the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. There may also be someone on the side of the Pergola filming -- it's subjective.

I don't recall who brought the Bell film to our attention recently, but that's my view (no pun intended). I wonder if the conspirators filmed the Assassination from the South side also.

Kathy C

Hi Kathleen..

I've looked and looked and have not seen a "resized" Bell... and the Bell I do have shows the limo speeding away just after the shots...

Do you have a link to this Bell study by any chance.. or frame grabs of what you are referring to?

thanks

DJ

There is only one known film to capture the limo between the end of Towner/Martin and the beginning of Muchmore… the Zapruder film. (Gordon Arnold, Babushka lady both might have captured it… but those films are gone, if they ever existed at all)

Muchmore’s limo shot is synced to z272…

Nix’s limo shot is synced at approx. z295

From approx. z133 until z272, only the Zfilm captures the action in motion

All the photos of the limo are placed in reference to a Zframe location

On the weekend of the shooting the NPIC and LIFE had access to the film…

Frames were numbered with 312 being the headshot and then worked backward from there

Or so it seems…

As we watch the film it is obvious that JFK is hit somewhere between 190 and 225, at least once

I believe it was the WCR that stated there was not shot from the TSBD until frame 210

“The test revealed that the next point at which the rifleman had a clear view through the telescopic sight of the point where the bullet entered the President's back was when the car emerged from behind the tree at frame 210.279 (See Commission Exhibit No. 893, p. 102.)”

So LIFE’s shot at 190 is not possible from the TSBD unless it was a complete miss

And the OTHER POSSIBLITIES “Frames on which shots occur” lists 206 and 213.

There is then a break until at least z242… and z264… that is if we assume they are listing the frames in which shots appear or are they working backward and saying shots HAD to occur on these frames…

If we were to remove 2 seconds of film, 36 frames, PRIOR to z272, we now have z242 occurring at z206 (where there is a splice in the film), and z264 occurring at z228… right after when shots appear as if they were fired in the existing z film

By removing any 36 frames between z133 and z272 the three films sync… z156 comes to mind where there is a visible splice… and again if the wide turn was removed… the 36 frames needn’t be consecutive…

There is also a splice in Hughes as the limo starts the turn and Towner, where it has the limo near the center line at the end of a smooth turn… but also a splice

I’d suggest that somewhere between 156 and 206, approx 36 frames have been removed during a sequence when not a single other film captures this removal and the z film can be synced to any and all other films/photos just by using revised frame numbers…

313 becomes 349/350 and Altgens is standing right where he is supposed to be – 15 feet from the limo - and the limo slows to much less than 8mph from z255 until z313… as Brehm and others basically say it was essentially stopped… at 2-3 mph that impression is not so hard and the ability of Hill to catch the limo is greatly increased…. Plus we KNOW the brakes were on…

Somehow the action was moved up the street… I still do not understand all the mechanics there but the notion that it was impossible to sync the Zfilm to ALL THE OTHER FILMS is a falsehood… there simply were not any other films to sync to during the time when frames would have been removed…

I welcome all critiques of my logic and hypothesis…

Just trying a little out of the box thought…

Cheers

DJ

edit: forgot to attach the file

That nicely oiled, well maintained MC sure works well...

Why is it that we never see a photo of a man with a rifle trying to replicate the position and movements of Oswald

based on the boxes, window opening, the space available next to the pipes in the SE corner and actual MC used??

Does it appear that HIS MC is in the same condition as whatever was found in the TSBD... on whatever floor it was found?

Duncan, are you supporting this view or simply posting the video without taking a side as you usually do?

thanks

DJ

Sounds good... you must have a much better version as my M01/z272 is nothing but a blur...

I'd like to point out though... as I did on Tom's "newbie" thread... that the syncing of the films was not as big a deal as is made out to be...

Muchmore starts at z272... Nix at about z295....

If the films are synced to 312, the head shot, per LIFE and NPIC, and frames are counted backward to the splices it all works...

Except if the headshot was really 40 frames or so down Elm... while a "Second" shot is seen at either 242 or 264

242 - 37 frames (2 seconds) = 205... wasn't there a splice at 205??

264 - 37 = 227... wasn't there a shot right about 227 or slightly before - at least in the z film we see....

Once the three films are synced to 312 and backward to their cut-in start showing the limo... we have 3 perfectly synced films all

showing the same thing in the same time... only thing wrong is the numbers of the corresponding z frames

DJ

From his FBI report....

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

I had started a thread eslewhere adding this testimony (as recorded by the FBI - what a shocker) to Altgens comments...

Now if we look at the other films that depict the limo from the turn onto Houston up to when Muchmore starts her camera at z272

we find there are no films of this portion of the trip OTHER than Zapruder... or am I missing something?

So in terms of "syncing" the films... all that was needed was to sync Zap to Muchmore after 272 and Nix after approx 295....

We do not see the limo, other than in photos, from the turn until Muchmore in any other film...

we KNOW there is a splice at 205/206 and we have the NPIC/Life magazine shot sequence that shows no 223 shot but a 242 and 264

2 seconds is 37 frames... 242-37=205.... 264-37=227... the Stemmons sign becomes even more important to the "splice" in Zap....

312 is a fixed point from whcih frames are counted backward... by syncing the headshot in the three movies and working backward

How strongly does this suggest that "syncing" ALL THE FILMS (all three) was not nearly as difficult a proposition as it appears?

Thanks

DJ

Thanks Michael....

Douglass' book is something to commit to memory for sure....

I'm surprised I didn't remember that section about Burroughs...

Cheers

DJ

According to the plats available, there should have been a street lamp in the muchmore shot... if she started at 272...

What I think I am suggesting is that cutting 2 seconds out of Z PRIOR to the start of the limo scenes in Nix and Muchmoore, there would be no effect and no discrepency with these two films...

Not like they needed syncing other than when Nix and Muchmore start up...

the first frame from Muchmore with the limo (actually 2nd) at z273....

Since there is not a single film that captures the limo prior to z275 (Nix started even later than that)

all that needs to sync is the Zfilm TO the others....

Something very curious though... WHERE IS THE LAMPOST ON THE NORTH SIDE OF ELM BY NEWMAN??

the line of sight, if this corresponds to 273.. goes right thru that lampost...

If she started earlier the lampost would move thru the film... if later, then Brehm would be farther into the picture

we know there is a splice of some sort at 205/206, 2 seconds is 37 frames... the NPIC table talks of a shot at 242 a couple of times

seems to make more sense this way... thoughts?

Sadly I come to find from Jim that Dave R is misquoting...

Haire never said anything about anyone else back there, according to Jim, who I think should know his own work....

In Jim D's review of Douglass we see it pop up again...

I don't see anything in Burrough's testimony supporting this... was it from something else?

Thanks

DJ

http://www.ctka.net/2008/jfk_unspeakable.html

Mather did high-security communications work for Collins Radio, a major contractor for the CIA. How major and sensitive? Collins had outfitted raider ships for sabotage missions off the coast of Cuba. They also installed communication towers in Vietnam. Further, Mather had installed electronics equipment on Air Force Two. (p. 297) After Wise's call, the Bureau wanted to talk to Mather. But Mather didn't want to talk to the Bureau. So they talked to his wife Barbara. She surprised the G-men by saying her husband had been a close friend of J. D. Tippit. How close? When Tippit was shot, his wife phoned them. Many years later, the HSCA also wanted to talk to Mather. He didn't want to talk to them either. They persisted. He relented upon one condition: he wanted a grant of immunity from prosecution. But he still had no explanation for how his license ended up on a car with an Oswald double in it right after Oswald's arrest. This is all interesting, even engrossing, on its own. But the author takes it further. Citing the valuable work of John Armstrong, he then builds a case that there were two Oswalds at the Texas Theater on November 22, 1963. One was arrested and taken out the front door. The second Oswald was hiding in the balcony and later escorted out the back by the police. Before anyone gets too dismissive, there are two Dallas Police Department reports that refer to Oswald being in the balcony of the theater. (p. 293) And there are two witnesses who saw an Oswald lookalike escorted out the rear: Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire. (I should add here, in a 4/8/08 interview I did with Armstrong for this review, he said there was a sheriff's officer who also saw this second Oswald on the stairs between the mezzanine and the first floor.) The author postulates that the man who exited the rear is the man who ended up in the Falcon. He then wraps this up by saying that this double was ultimately flown out of Dallas on a military transport plane. This is based on the testimony of retired Air Force officer Robert Vinson. It is contained in a 52-page affidavit given to his attorney James P. Johnston of Wichita, Kansas.

If there is a way to get a question to Jim Marrs....

He mentions twice about "OTHERS" with Haire in the back alley... are these "others" ever identified

and do they coroborrate?

thanks

DJ

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.DR1/.Orig/.dr34.txt

Bernard J. Haire, owner of Bernie's Hobby House two doors from the theater,

walked out of his shop shortly before 2:00 pm, and saw police cars backed up to

Madison Street. He walked out front where the crowd had gathered, but he could

not see what was going on. (Haire can be seen at the edge of the crowd in front

in at least one photograph snapped as Oswald was taken out.) He walked through

his store into the back alley, which was also crowded with police cars.

Haire and others watched as the police escorted a man from the rear of the

Texas Theatre; the man wore a "white pullover shirt," and was very "flush" in

the face as though he had been in a struggle. Haire's description of this man

"white shirt" with a "flush face" is consistent with witness statements of

Tippit's killer before, during and after the shooting.

For twenty-five years, Mr. Haire and those he was with thought they had

witnessed the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald in the alley behind the Texas

Theatre. When informed by researcher Jim Marrs that Oswald had been brought out

the front of the theater, Haire asked, "Then who was the person I saw police

take out the rear of the theater, put in a police car, and drive off?" (Marrs,

Crossfire, 354)

Mr. LIEBELER - You also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the President was hit in the head?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; that's correct.

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

So I imagine these are simply mistakes? Two of the closet people to the car and they could not judge distance... one a pro photographer needing to focus his equipment...

It's 40-45 feet from z255 to z313... it's at least 6 seconds from first to last shot

Is this a mass illusion or is there something there?