David Josephs

What do you not understand...

I AGREE WITH YOU JIM... there are many many things missing from the film that witnesses saw...

My point remains... there is nothing shown on the extant film that is contradicted by the witnesses...

the CONTENT of the extant film does not ADD events, only remove or cover up

and when you actually count the number that said "STOPPED" as opposed to slowed, paused, etc... it is much fewer than 70..

but many said it... and from my calcs regarding Hill it had to...

I know the evidence Jim...

If you cannot understand my positon from what I've written.. so be it.

Your position has become all to clear to me as well...

Peace

DJ

David,

You are committing multiple logical blunders. However, even though your reasoning is flawed that does not mean that you are necessarily incorrect. It does mean that the proofs you are offering to support your assertions are inadequate to the task, though.

Greg,

Being wrong only means I'm trying...

please show me the logical blunders... sincerely.

I'm trying to show that what we see in the film's frames is corroborated by the witnesses...

that there are no events in the film that are contradicted... only missing or blocked.

where am I falling down here...? as I prefer to express this both logically, and directly.

thx

DJ

No Jim... anything close would suffice...

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw---I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [ the witness crying].

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.

Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes.

All I would like is you or the Hollywood 7 to SHOW US... I posted an enhancement of the black square hovering over JFK.. I AGREE...

I've had lengthy discussion over why we see no debris dripping off the vehicle at Parkland per Frazier's testimony...

Mr. SPECTER - What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?

Mr. FRAZIER - There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.

Mr. SPECTER - Is that condition depicted by Commission Exhibits 352 and 353 to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

and Martin AND Hargis testify to deris all over them and their motorcycles... do you have images of their helmuts covered in gore? The limo hood?

Neither do I...

So I will ask one last time and then drop it... name something, ANYTHING THAT WE SEE in the Zfilm, that is refuted or contradicted by a witness...

DJ

Don't you understand that the events you describe as MISSING have been replaced by events that did not happen WHICH ARE SHOWN? Surely at this point in our conversation you have to grasp that those EVENTS THAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED have been replaced by FALSE DEPICTIONS. Which ones are faked?

THOSE EVENTS "DID NOT OCCUR" AS THEY ARE DEPICTED IN THE EXTANT FILM. I asked you whether these events ACTUALLY HAPPENED OR NOT. I know you have a mental block regarding the logic of the situation. So simply answer my questions, Y/N, so I have a better idea where things stand. OK? Thanks

Please post any single statement froma ny single witness who saw the film and said..."That did not happen"

Nothing was REPLACED Jim... removing the limo stop is not replacing it with a moving limo... the limo WAS moving...

he WAS shot in the head, Does someone say, "i did not see any damage to the right side of his head so what we see in Z is not what I saw"

No, Hill says there was a hole in the back right of his head... THAT'S MISSING... and what does remain is BLOCKED...

Z374 shows the real damage...

JC does get pulled down by NC or was that added after?

We are saying the same thing... I'm just not saying it the way you want to hear it...

Cheers Jim...

If you can't post the statments I ask for... then you can't prove to me that anything was added that didn't actuially happen

David,

You are committing a logical blunder. There are plenty of things that are shown in the film that did not happen as they are shown in the film. So your assumption that you could use the extant film to dismiss other versions that are inconsistent with the extant film is wrong. Suppose, for example, that another film turned up that showed NO back-and-to-the-left motion of the body. Since that IS in the extant film, if you assume there are only omissions--which means that EVERYTHING SHOWN IN THE EXTANT FILM IS ACCURATE, EVEN THOUGH OTHER THINGS HAPPENED THAT ARE NOT SHOWN--then you would be obligated to reject it BECAUSE IT IS INCONSISTENT WITH THE EXTANT FILM. That was your argument, but you are wrong.

I NEVER said what your conclusion above suggests.... my argument is that the extant film is BASED in the reality of the event... that it was filmed THAT DAY and that frames have been removed and altered to fit the needs, THAT WEEKEND at NPIC and Hawkeye... when frames are removed so the timing works yet only results in a faster head turn... YOU seem to be saying the head never turned... or that head turn was "faked" or added... I'll get into your list below in a minute....

You are getting pissed for no good reason, because there are plenty of events in the extant film that did not happen as well as many excluded from it that did. Let's try another approach and see where we agree and disagree about what actually happened. Here are a dozen events that did or did not occur. My responses to all of them would be "Yes", and I can explain how we know that those "Yes" answers are correct (as I have done in relation to most of them in this last post). The truth of any of them, I might observe, implies that the film is faked (and I used the word because it fits). So kindly tell me which of these points are ones on which we agree and which are ones on which you disagree--and tell us why--to provide a basis for discussion:

You dont seem to be listening at all Jim.... of the events you list... who, after viewing the film says it did NOT happen that way? Each and every one is MISSING, BLOCKED or ODD... they DID Happen - or not Jim?

(1) Greer's head turns are impossibly fast: Y/N Greer and Kellerman both testify to his head turn... too fast? MISSING

(2) The "blob" was painted in: Y/N BLOCKED

(3) The blood spray was painted in: Y/N SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT no blood SPRAYED FROM JKF'S HEAD? BLOCKED

(4) There was no back-and-to-the-left: Y/N I disagree here Jim... back-left is a relative term... you saying he NEVER fell to his left and back toward Jackie?

(5) JFK instead slumped forward: Y/N All about POV here Jim... and which frames... he went left, he went back and he went forwarfd after falling over... he alos was pushed back up and hit again... this is in the film

(6) Debris blew out to the left/rear: Y/N MISSING & BLOCKED... you saying that never happened?

(7) Debris was strewn across the trunk: Y/N MISSING BLOCKED

(8) Clint actually pushed Jackie down: Y/N Interpretation of statements... this is uncorroborated, single person testimony...

(9) Clint lay across their bodies: Y/N See #8

(10) Clint gave a "thumbs down": Y/N MISSING

(11) Chaney motored forward: Y/N MISSING

(12) There was a limo stop: Y/N MISSING

So I will ask yet again Jim... post a statement about the Zfilm from ANYONE saying "NO, that did NOT happen" - I am excluding "like that" from the statement cause we KNOW frames/events are missing...

Please just answer the question Jim... you have all the evidence at your fingertips, YOU are a world renowned expert on Zfilm problems

surely you have a list of witness statements that support your conclusion that the Zfilm is FAKED and things occur on the film that did not happen...

thanks

DJ

Greg...

Maybe yours is just a hypothetical statement? My distinction on the Zfilm... as opposed to what you saw, is simply that what we have access to today shows ALOT of what you described and is based in REALITY... the film was not shot on a soundstage, nor does it try to convince anyone that what they are seeing DIDN'T happen....

You can't tell from watching the film that during any 3 frame stretch the limo APPEARS to travel at twice the speed it should be due to the distances and survey info... that suggests something is missing....

and I DO believe that an original is out there with the MISSING STUFF back in...

Let me ask you... seeing the Zfilm a zillion times as we all have, is there anything in there that did not happen? One of the only things I initially thought of is in the z450's where JFK is seen sitting up again... yet we have witness testimony to this.... so if you have anything to point to that is shown yet did not occur I'd appreciate it

Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do

Mr. LIEBELER - He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Cheers

DJ

ps... Can we all refrain from stating what someone else THINKS or KNOWS? If you want to know where I stand on an issue, just ask.

As I said, the unaltered version will fill in the blanks MISSING from the film... hopefully as you've described them - yet Zappy will not all of a sudden be somewhere else, there will still be three men on the steps, moorman and jean will still be in their places.. etc....

Will it also show the first headshot 30 feet down the road? Altgens doesn't say the film is showing something that didn't happen... just what he says DID HAPPEN...

I will easily stand corrected if he ever said what he saw on the zfilm did not occur that way.... or anyone else for that matter.... I jsut cannot recall anything said along those lines.

thanks

DJ

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

As a point of, perhaps, human nature: where Jim believes that the Zapruder film is a fake and Lee and David believe the opposite, it is interesting to note the separate emphasis. Where Jim anticipates the appearance of an unaltered original film and appreciates what that would mean ... -- and where such a surfacing of an "unaltered" film is the last thing David and Lee anticipate -- they could care less--but not because they are detached, but because they are just not persuaded by the evidence as far as they know it.

Jim...

you are a real piece of work aren't you? I took for granted you were not as big a #$%^ as what I've been reading all these years....

thanks for setting the record straight...

Looking at this post in response to my stating that the only things amiss with Z are MISSING, BLOCKED or ODD THINGS...

and then you get on a soapbox, admonish me for what I do or do not know... and seemingly smirk as you do it...

and post items that are MISSING FROM THE FILM -

"were twice as fast as humanly possible" - missing the entire turn

"had been painted in" - blocking something else

"that the back-and-to-the-left motion did not take place at the time" - I have Greg's write up...it says "up, then fall to the left" either case it's MISSING

"he himself had been shot is also missing from the film" - missing

"the absence of debris blowing out to the left/rear and missing from the trunk " - missing

"blood spray dissipates far too rapidly " - missing (those that were there did say something about a red halo, yet some of it is missing from the film)

"where he remains standing on the back step as the limo approaches the Triple Underpass. SO THAT DID NOT HAPPEN" - missing from the film

Show me a quote from anyone saying - "no, that did NOT happen that way"

And being pissed at you has nothing to do with my knowledge Jim, but your condescending attitude and the fact your posts continue to prove you'd rather argue or preach than have a discussion....

If a blue elephant walked across Elm in one of these films we could have people state that was not the case.... what in the film do we see that DID NOT HAPPEN in any way, shape or form?

Chaney not moving up as corroborated by testimony IS MISSING from the film... and when shown the film he says he MUST have stopped... he was mistaken... like Hill and the auto shells, Weitzman/Boone/Craig/Fritz about the Mauser, etc....

Truly saying the limo almost hit the curb and stopped on the left to to Elm, is MISSING from Towner and Z....

So please... can you name anything in the extant film that doesn't belong cause it is showing something that did NOT happen?

DJ

Well, this is useful, David, because I have been taking for granted that you knew the evidence better than you do. If you had read Noel Twyman, BLOODY TREASON (1997), you would know that, in addition to his studies on Greer's head turns, which were twice as fast as humanly possible and which Roy Schaeffer had independently discovered (page 166), Roderick Ryan, an expert on special effects, told him that the limo is moving in frame 302 but standing still in frame 303 (page 159) and that the "blobs" of brains and gore gushing out to the right/front of his head had been painted in (page 160). We also know (because none of the witnesses reported it and it is not present in "the other film", which has been viewed by William Reymond, Milicent Cranor, Rich DellaRosa, and Gregory Burnham, among others) that the back-and-to-the-left motion did not take place at the time. The massive extrusion of brain debris that impacted Bobby Hargis so hard that he initially had thought that he himself had been shot is also missing from the film (page 165), where, as I explained in HOAX (2003), Secret Service agents were nauseated when they observed JFK brain debris across the back of the trunk (page 27). So the absence of debris blowing out to the left/rear and missing from the trunk should also be there if the extant version of the film was authentic. And you should take a look at John's tutorial on Zapruder film alteration, "THE JFK ASSASSINATION FILM HOAX: AN INTRODUCTION", http://assassination...ella/jfk/intro/ where he explains that the blood spray dissipates far too rapidly to be a bona fide phenomenon. Have you never watched it? Have ever read HOAX (2003), especially pages 21-28?

And how can you possibly maintain that "No one, NO ONE has ever watched the Zfilm and said "that did not happen".... we speak of what is missing ONLY... or blocked, or odd"? Clint Hill's testimony, which has been consistent for (then) 47 years, as I document it in "JFK: Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", contradicts what we see in the film, where he remains standing on the back step as the limo approaches the Triple Underpass. SO THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. Office Chaney is not shown motoring forward, which means that, with regard to where he was at the time, THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. The bulging brain matter known as the "blob" was painted in, SO THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. The blood spray also appears to have been painted in, SO THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. No witnesses reported the back-and-to-the-left motion, SO THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. Where do you come off being pissed off with me when it turns out that you are the one who is ignorant of basic discoveries about the film, which have long been known? I organized and moderated the first symposium on Zapruder film alteration at Lancer in 1996. You could have easily obtained the two DVDs of the session from Lancer, if you were seriously interested in these questions, but apparently you did not. You also appear not to have read HOAX (2003) or even watched the videos from the Zapruder film symposium I organized in Duluth, which Rich DellaRosa turned into a 66-part YouTube series on "Zapruder Fakery". I am sorry that you felt insulted, David, but I assumed you knew a great deal more about these films than you do. You have now confirmed many of the points I have raised about your position.

David,

To make an obvious logical point, when two films are in conflict, how do you know which is authentic? The extant Zapruder may have been in the public domain longer, but that would also be true if the genuine unaltered original were to surface. The fact that the extant Zapruder has been around a long time does not make it authentic. Since these two are inconsistent, they cannot both be authentic, but they could both be fake--which, apparently, is indeed the case. So your standards of proof seem to me to be vastly different, given the monumental proof that I have adduced. Why is a simple inconsistency between two films enough for you to conclude that the one that is less familiar must be the fake? This is not simply a double-standard, but virtually no standard at all. Your dismissal in light of these considerations is simply begging the question by taking for granted which film is the fake, where your attitude about this is commits a blunder in logic.

Jim

Jim...

First off - refrain from telling me my own conclusions, dismissals or any other thing... restrict yourself to what YOU believe from what I've presented....

Nothing is a "simple inconcistency" to help me "conclude" anything...

Unless you read minds, quote me or ASK... you simply do not know. so enough.

You write as if these films live on an island of their own... and throw the term FAKE around without qualification...

No one, NO ONE has ever watched the Zfilm and said "that did not happen".... we speak of what is missing ONLY... or blocked, or odd

and I agree with you, fundementally, that the Zfilm is missing things that should be there.... as are other films...

yet certain things cannot be changed... Moorman... Altgens... McIntyre... they tell a very compelling story...

and confirm portions of the Zfilm to sell a BIG lie....

So a word or two from a fan and collaborator... EASE UP... I'm on your side and you're pissing me off

All I want to do is figure a few things out... so how about staying helpful

3 simple rules - right?

Peace

DJ

Jim Fetzer...

That you cannot realize what you are doing... or do realize it and continue anyway, is a shame...

IF it was real???

so scroll down a little and buy the REAL $500,000 reel to reel tapes of AF-1's discussions with the outside world...

3 simple rules:

1 - dont attack the poster

2 - present the evidence that supports your conclusions

3 - authenticate this evidence

and #4 for Mr. F here... stay on topic... posting whatever you;ve discussed over the past 20 years in other areas of the case has no bearing on THIS area...

in this thread alone you make repeated mistakes... and conclusions that do not follow from the analysis...

and then YOU IGNORE ME when I show you where and how you are wrong

Moorman shows the man looking directly at JFK... so does Nix... yet you get completely condescending with me and your insincere THANKS...

for your coming to a conclusion that is completely wrong....

I agree with some of the things you offer Jim... and have concluded that there is NO EVIDENCE related to this case that is not tainted in some way....

3 rules - pretty simple....

Peace

DJ

Say it aint so Lee....

Well... Can't blame you... and after the other forums I've tried, this still remains the most "educational"

Ebb and flow Lee....

Hope you rethink your position

DJ

btw

When you hit the BUY button we find this GEM is only $100....

"unintended consequences" indeed...

Your order summary

Descriptions Amount

JFK Film DVD

JFK Film DVD$100.00

Item number: JFK-2011

Item price: $100.00

Quantity: 1

Item total $100.00

Total $100.00 US

I am fairly astonished to report that there appears to be YET ANOTHER assassination film, which is being attributed to the Secret Service--and which was taken from above. You can learn more about it at http://www.stingraysstudios.com/JFK_Film.html Who took this and from what location? It would appear to been taken from the Texas School Book Depository. But why has it not surfaced before now? And how could the ARRB have missed it? No doubt it will be consistent with films we have proven to be fake. A new chapter begins.

This is the straw. The thing that will go down as the reason I couldn't take being a member here any longer.

I'm going to find different avenues to express myself away from this insanity.

I request that my membership (user name and password) be removed immediately by John Simkin and the moderating team.

Goodbye everyone.

Thanks

I am fairly astonished to report that there appears to be YET ANOTHER assassination film, which is being attributed to the Secret Service--and which was taken from above. You can learn more about it at http://www.stingraysstudios.com/JFK_Film.html Who took this and from what location? It would appear to been taken from the Texas School Book Depository. But why has it not surfaced before now? And how could the ARRB have missed it? No doubt it will be consistent with films we have proven to be fake. A new chapter begins.

Y'know Jim... up until this post I was giving you the benefit of the doubt...

You ARE kidding - right?

Here is the Zfilm... Hill is already on the bumper and Jackie hasn't left her seat... unlike what you posted

WHICH IF I WERE TO GUESS is a shot from the filming of JFK the movie...

I believe we've also seen a movie that ends with a Z vantage point image of a killer on the GK... was a promo film of some sort....

Yes in deed Jim.. I am FAIRLY astonished... at you for not checking it out first...

Great work, David! You have made some excellent discoveries. One of them is that, in order for Office Chaney to have "looked back just in

time to see the president STRUCK IN THE FACE", he had to have motored forward of the president's position, which is not shown in the film.

At 39 seconds in, Chaney says, "2nd shot came and I looked back just in time to see the president STRUCK IN THE FACE by the second bullet"

Moreover--and this may be even more important than his having motored forward--Officer Hargis' reports about the limo having stopped:

Mr. BAKER - I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.

Mr. BELIN - Where was he?

Mr. BAKER - He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Let's take this a little at a time please Jim...

I do not agree with your conclusion about Chaney and his position... in fact

Looks to me that in Moorman this cop is looking directly at JFK and would not have a problem at all in seeing him get hit in the face...

Is this Chaney?

I also tried to isolate the cops on the right in Nix... crappy images for sure but you can readily tell they are looking directly at JFK then as I show earlier, they immediately look to the right and the Knoll....

and second I believe you meant my reference to Baker, not Hargis...no?

Yes, I noticed the same thing, David. Last June I spent two afternoons studying the MPI 4" by 5" transparencies at the 6th Floor Museum. They are glorious. Looking at Z317, it struck me that the shadow on the back of JFK's head is exactly like the shadows that appear at other places in the frame. This is what you noticed and it is even clearer in the MPI transparencies.

What ever happened to the much-vaunted "Hollywood Seven." We don't even know who they are supposed to be and all we've heard from them is a deafening silence? And for how many years has their silence been deafening?

Not sure if I understand the post... "like the shadows that appear at other places in the frame" suggests that you think the BOH shadow is consistent with the others.

What I noticed was the shadow at the back of JFK's head do not change as other similiar shadows do and in fact looks to ME like it floats over the head...

I happen to do a z317 analysis just to see how these shadows behaved... as well as a gif at high contrast to see how that area changes... that area stays VERY dark comparitively...

yet I of course view it with suspicious eyes...

and I agree with you again JT... been hearing about these glorious 35mm Hollywood frames that make it obvious... maybe saving it for the 50th?

At 39 seconds in, Chaney says, "2nd shot came and I looked back just in time to see the president STRUCK IN THE FACE by the second bullet"

No wonder they didn't call Ofc Chaney, huh?

* James Chaney (motorcycle patrolman on right rear of the Presidential limousine): “I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital and that Parkland was standing by.”

Chaney does indeed say this.... yet don't they have radios for those types of communications? This seems eerily similiar to the discrepancies between Baker's affidavit and testimony...

what started as a man on the stairs becomes Oswald in the lunchroom... just sayin.

Chaney would have had to get to the lead car by the time it reaches the overpass.... and I don't believe the LEAD CAR STOPPED - or did it?

Dispatcher 12:30 p.m. KKB 364.

1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.

1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there.

1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Have Parkland stand by.

Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker) I am sure it's going to take some time to get your man in there. Pull every one of my men in there.

Dispatcher Dallas 1, repeat, I didn't get all of it. I didn't quite understand all of it.

Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker) Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there.

* Bobby Hargis (motorcycle patrolman on left rear of the Presidential limousine): “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.”

Well, that's not what NIX shows.... see below... Chaney basically stops... as he says later... "I MUST have stopped"

Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting.

Not Funny that Martin - who went along with the motorcade to Parkland, did not see the CHANEY episode...

Bill Decker says nothing about it either...

* Winston Lawson (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle escort officer pulled along side our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over the radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.”

* Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle patrolman pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled, ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer responded in the affirmative.”

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car

had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A

motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody

hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief

Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we

had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car

pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to

pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and

Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Jim...

Curry did NOT say anything about "surrounding the building" - here are all Curry's transmissions and their times...

Why would Sorrels make that up ? When he was right there when he directs them to the RR yard?

12:28 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Big crowd, yes.

12:28 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Just crossing Market Street.

12:28 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Approaching Triple Underpass.

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there.

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Have Parkland stand by.

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Looks like the President has been hit. Have Parkland stand by.

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Headed to Parkland. Something's wrong with Channel 1.

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Just go on to Parkland Hospital [with me].

12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Get these trucks out of the way. Hold everything. Get out of the way.

12:34 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Keep everything out of this emergency entrance.

12:51 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) It's very doubtful.

12:51 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Not at this time that I know of. I don't know but I feel reasonably sure that he will not.

1:34 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) With as little attention as possible, get up and break traffic ahead of the cars.

1:37 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Yes, but don't put it on the air. (1:37 p.m.)

1:37 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Don't let anyone follow us into the field.

1:37 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) 10-4.

1:51 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) What are the circumstances of J.D. Tippit?

1:51 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Did they get the suspects?

1:51 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) 10-4.

1:52 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) 10-4.

* Chief Jesse Curry (in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “. . . about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney, rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said ‘Has somebody been shot?” And he said, ‘I think so.’”

The McIntyre crop is maybe 2 seconds later... that must be MARTIN at the back right... and maybe Chaney at the back left?

Now someone not mentioned is Baker... and his account adds even more to the notion that CHANEY did go to the lead car... BUT WHEN THE ENTIRE MOTORCADE HAD STOPPED...

AS I keep investingating this there is obviously something amiss with the film around the headshot... with the STOPPING added to the CHANEY accounts... there is something strange here,

yet with Nix and McIntyre, and now these revelations about Chaney being mistaken... (you know Jim, like Hill was mistaken about the automatic rounds at the Tippit scene )

This requires more work... imo.

Mr. BAKER - I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.

Mr. BELIN - Where was he?

Mr. BAKER - He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Mr. BELIN - The President's car?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely.

Mr. DULLES - You saw it stop, did you?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir; I didn't see it stop.

Mr. DULLES - You just heard from others that it had stopped?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland.

Thanks JT...

I did the bottom graphic a while back and to ME it says that the head did not move forward - the ears line up as I used the farthest point to the rear of JFK yet still touching him...

and then he starts his fall backward....

Yet I also believe that multiple shots do hit him at this point, and the back of his head's "blackness" is helped out a little

I messed with this frame a bit... what strikes me is that there is the same darkness caused by the sunlight for the others in the limo

Jackies hair is also in the shadows but does not become what we see on the back of JFK's head...

Now to tackle Jim's post and offered quotes... stay tuned

DJ

dup

DSL -

Yes Oswald was picked out of line-ups as having fled the Tippit scene... I mis-typed... should read...

"From his room to the Tippit murder scene"

and I believe you understood that... and my point remains the same... almost a mile where few if anyone is walking (save Mrs Markham)

and not a soul sees Oswald taking this BRISK WALK...

Can you offer ANY EXPLANATION why Oswald would turn EAST ON 10th, to only wind up WEST of that location at the theater?

He could not have seen Tippit come up from behind him...

Could NOT have know Tippit would be on THAT street...

So what was EAST on/of 10th that Oswald would have been going to? Didn't Ruby have an apartment EAST of the Tippit murder?

Regarding the Tippit scene itself... Since the murder is basically time stamped by Markham, Bowley, Wright and the others who were watching TV and saw the time there as the shots were heard...

as happening a between 1:06 and 1:10...

and Scoggins lets up know that Oswald approached from the EAST...

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car.

So as Tippit is DRIVING EAST he comes up on a man FACING HIM... yet to be fair, Helen has this man walking EAST across Patton and Tippit catches up with him...

Scoggins also says he only sees the man after Tippit stops... so he could have easily just turned around...

Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately.

Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk?

Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that?

Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face when he passed the cab.

Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.

Mr. BALL. To your left?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.

Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.

Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.

Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.

Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.

When Serg, Harkness - minutes after the shooting - came to the back door of the SBDB, there was a bunch of men in plain clothes there, claiming, they were Secret Service.

I think those false SS men were securing the escape-route for the SBDB shooting team. (The guys Carr saw getting into the Rambler on the east side of the SBDB building...heading north, against THE one way street called HUSTON... a guy named WORELL saw another man leaving the back of the SBDB...

Goes behind TSBD: at 12:35/6 (Did he go up with Sawyer?)

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male who was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.

DPD investigation at its finest...

Harkness sure gets all the importand jobs from Sawyer, huh....

Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.

Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out?

Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know.

Mr. BELIN - You don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.

Mr. BELIN - Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN - Then did you say around the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.

Mr. BELIN - You mean some transients?

Mr. HARKNESS - Tramps and hoboes.

Mr. BELIN - That were on the freight car?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.

We had several officers working in that area.

Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. Who was actually ARRESTED?

Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned?

Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Mr. BELIN - Any guns of any kind found?

Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge.

Finally... are we really going to even bother with our three black men on the 5th anymore? Supposedly a high powered rifle explodes 10-15 feet from their heads and one claims to be able to hear, AFTER THAT, the clink of a shell and the working of a bolt... yet as Lee mentions... nothing of a person or persons moving...

The most common sense questions wreck havoc on the official story every time...

And to bring this full circle.. Agent Sorrels MAY have encountered the same black man at the back door as Harkness did 20 minutes before, so this is STILL before 1pm

Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"

He said, "No, sir."

"Did you see anyone leave the back way?"

"No, sir."

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.

I identified myself to Mr. Truly.

Mr. STERN - Just a minute.

Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN - There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?

Mr. SORRELS - I did not see one; no, sir.

Mr. STERN - And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir.

As amazed as Mr Stern here sounds.... that's were this line of questioning ends.

As I've mentioned before... WHOEVER WANTED TO could have easily gotten into and out of the TSBD, if shots were fired from there, very easily.

DJ

Indeed Lee... and thanks for stepping back in... the lumps out here do wear us down...

yet your contributions remain stellar

Please keep up the great work

DJ

David J

They contacted no one to guarantee these stories. The elderly woman who talked to Oswald/Jones - not sought (probably because it was Bledsoe). The woman who was late for her train and also allegedly asked for a transfer - not sought (probably because she didn't exist). The old lady who Oswald allegedly offered his cab to - not sought (probably because she didn't exist - she appears at the bottom of Whaley's handwritten affidavit almost as an add-on). Any other passenger who was on that bus - except Bledsoe and the driver - not sought (probably because they may have spoiled the party). The man who told McWatters that JFK had been shot - not sought (probably because he didn't exist).

Let's not forget that it was Fritz who asked Oswald whether he'd taken THE cab. Not "a cab" but "the cab.". And Fritz knew about this cab BEFORE the officers who were sent to pick up Scoggins even knew about the existence of Whaley.

This story, all of it, is BS.

The fact that Roberts and Gladys Johnson both stated that the DPD were at 1026 North Beckley before 2pm was avoided in their Warren Commission testimony.

Whaley's story went through 3 completely different versions.

McWatters didn't I'D Oswald in the line-up but the Officers said he did. His hand-written affidavit changed when typed up and once again the Officers lied about what he said and when he said it. His Waren Commission testimony contains the truth of matters but they really did keep asking him to lie under oath.

There is so much to this one single aspect of the case that the thread I started runs for 14 pages - with most of the contributions, from many different members, really worth reading.

As we watch Zfilm the limo speeds off and no motorcycles follow them... NONE.

the rest of Chaney also makes sense...

Mr. STERN - You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots?

Mr. HARGIS - Yes. sir: I knew they were shots.

Mr. STERN - All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your motorcycle?

Mr. HARGIS - Yes, uh-huh----

Mr. STERN - Where?

Mr. HARGIS - It was to the left-hand side of the street from---south side of Elm Street.

Mr. STERN - And then what did you---

Mr. HARGIS - I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then I looked.

Jim F....

rather than attacking JT, can you offer anything other than CHANEY's own words that he went up ahead to the lead car?

Does anyone in the car corroborate the story?

Are any of the three motocycle men in McIntyre CHANEY?

and finally... in SUPPORT of the frontal shot... I offer this look at CHANEY and his mate as the shots are fired...

WHERE ARE THEY LOOKING?

(Note: FWIW, Chaney, the man closest to JFK outside the vehicle is NOT on the WCR witness list or is listed as the author of ANYTHING in the dallas archive.... but I'll keep looking)

Jim, where did CHANEY say he motored forward to the lead car? Sorry if I missed the reference - an interview with you?

DJ

Hi David,

Here is a shortened,stabilized version for you.

I've slowed it down.

http://24.152.179.96:8400/49F25/TOWNER3.gif

chris

Hi Chris, thanks for the great gif....

Seems to me that the distance steps from frame to frame, except for the splice, is uniform

and the limo is nowehere NEAR that curb by those people....

Look where the turn STARTS in towner... looks like center lane to center lane.... andnot WIDE at all...

curious

DJ

Agree wholeheartedly Tom...

I just can't visualize the process that allows what we see on the films to have been the end product of alteration unless either

a) there were MANY more frames taken than what we finally see (faster camera speed - 24fps and all of Chris D's work makes perfect sense)

what we see is a composite

c)

Your survey work is wonderful - thank you....

btw, how do I get a copy of "There is no Magic"?

DJ

The Hughes pause may give away the beginning of the slowing but not the entire thing as you elude to... Towner suggests no slowing or drastic right-to-left recovery....

Could be I'm just not seeing Twoner correctly and that Truly overstates the turn... Need to find other testimony about the turn....

I was under the impression a number of people testified to seeing dust kick up from a bullet hitting the street BEHIND the limo just after the turn....

Barbara something... I will look but I am SURE there are accounts of that shot...

and you're right... if only Truly mentions it I'd find that suspect....

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Does this look like Kellerman has something to say about the turn, but doesn't?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.

Repeatedly we hear 12-15 mph when we both know the turn at Elm/Houston could NOT be taken at 15 mph....

According to the info Purvis found regarding the Plat Surveys and distances... the WCR claims that from z168-z171 they were traveling at 3.74mph yet from 171-185, 17.1mph...

Are we going to believe that they SLOWED from 12-15mph down to 3mph AFTER the 120 degree turn? onlt to immediately speed up?

Tom's data is pretty compelling in that we have distances, # of frames and "supposedly" an 18.3fps rate...

So either Truly is exaggerating a bit... or something is fishy with the films and locations related to the turn and frames 207-208 which we can talk about in a different thread...

Personally:

If it carries any weight, I would go for the "fishy"!

Interesting about the 4th floor. I believe ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was involved in a search about 130 pm and said a Manlicher Carcano was found either on the 4th or 5th floor, not the same floor as the shells.

Hi Nick..

I believe you meant to say THE MC, not "A" MC....

and when you add the number of 5th floor references from Sawyer... and what he and 2 others did between 12:34 and 12:37...

the 5th floor gets more interesting..

Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a *second* search of

the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963,

according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth

floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He

adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run

out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs."

Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped."

Now is that what you told them on that day?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day.

Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley.

the 500 block, between W 7th & W Davis is closer to the Tippit murder than the 700 block at Neely

WHY must we make the assumption that Whaley's passenger went NORTH afterward?

Mr. WHALEY. Thank you. I still would like to know where I knew you before. So would I....

Mr. BELIN. Sir, I don't know. Now, Mr. Whaley, if you like, you can come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it before you mail it to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it. You have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in Washington.

Mr. WHALEY. Does it make any difference?

Mr. BELIN. It does not make any difference.

Mr. WHALEY. It will all be what you said and what she took down?

Mr. BELIN. What you said?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; and what I said?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. WHALEY. That will be all right. I will waive the signing of it.

You think it possible that NECHES was changes to NEELY from the April 8 deposition?

DJ

My vote is both Mary Bledsoe and Oswald were on the bus. And then Oswald got off and took the cab.

Over.

Then who is it that Roger Craig sees in the rambler?

What happens to Oswald's jacket? NOT on the bus, yet 2 Jackets in the cab (or at least one that matches his DARK pants...

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.

He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

and if you see my previous post... Whaley is not exactly a lot of help to your conclusion....

and in the walk from Lamar to Commerce, in the midst of all this... not a single person remembers seeing Oswald.... you'd think people would admit to seeing him on that walk just cause they were there at the time, even if they didn't see him.... but we don't have that story... he just APPEARS ..

Did they ever contact the woman who Whaley called a cab for to corroborate the story?

DJ