David Josephs

Appreciate that position indeed....

Yet... it remains very difficult to imagine that the one piece of evidence offering the most definitive view of the assasiantion is authentic...

when so many less significant pieces are obviously not authentic...

In your heart of hearts... with virtually every piece of evidence against Oswald questionable

we would be allowed to see a film of what actually happened?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Z342... Altgens at 15 feet from JFK

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

'nuf said...

cheers JT...

Josiah,

Cheers for your acceptional sparing efforts... but he aint gonna learn what he dont wanna know....

Not really sure why the discussion must center on z317 when z323 is the most obvious representation of this black-out...

and if deep in shadow, what is that white spot on his jacket collar where there should be nothing but shadow?

Does it not seem obvious that if we see the back of the head avulsed in 335/337... that this was present at 323?

At the bottom left of this black area is a portion of JFK's skull which has been blown out yet not in deep shadow...

Z337 makes the blow out to the back of the head obvious and also makes the xrays offered useless... his face and forehead where not affected yet the xrays show massive defects in these areas...

This was why Jackie's statement was removed... "from the front, nothing"

Professor Fetzer, Ph.D.'s, self-proclamations of "victory" are about as reliable as a Newt Gingrich stump speed (nor does the resemblance end there!). With respect to his ever-mountiing series of claims, eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. For weeks, he has been claiming that the ordinary version of the MPI video offers some confirmation for the claimed 317 "black patch." For example, among the specious self-congratulations Fetzer sends himself below is this: "And again about the black spot on frame 317, observing that it is present on 3rd generation copies of the film and in MPI's own motion picture, which means it should be on The 6th Floor slides, too." You can go to Robin Ungar's very excellent web site and check out frames from the MPI video by clicking on: http://www.jfkassass...5804&fullsize=1 Right around there you can also find other Zapruder frames from the MPI video. What does the back of JFK's head look like in Z 317? Exactly like what the back of JFK's head looks like in 312, 313, 314, 314, 315, 316... there's a big old shadow there that matches other shadows in the frames.

Confronted with the actual frames, Fetzer can now argue either (1) Robin Ungar has messed with the frames. OR (2) The frames don't show what they clearly show. OR (3) It doesn't matter becuase the version of 317 in LA trumps all this. Most likely, we will not hear this claim made again.

JT

Tom Purvis believes that Lee Harvey Oswald was a crack shot, the carcano was a good weapon and that he fired all the shots at JFK in Dallas. Without batting an eye, he also maintains that the Warren Commission "covered up." Since he agrees with all their ridiculous conclusions, it's very hard to figure out what he's talking about. They claim Oswald did it. Tom claims Oswald did it. So they are in agreement.

To top it all off, Tom is a film aterationist. If any of you can figure out how to reconcile all of these mystifying, contradictory sets of beliefs, please enlighten the rest of us.

Tom Purvis continues to inexplicably receive far more respect from nearly everyone on this forum than someone like Jim Fetzer does. Why do you scoff at Fetzer, let take seriously someone like Tom Purvis?

Hi Don...

"illuminating" subjects for me... ie the survey data mistakes and cover-up, deserves respect.... it is a very well done analysis that supposrts and makes sense of testimony at the scene.... but I do believe hew stops short BECAUSE of his conlcusions....

How he can quote Altgens yet not hear Brehm and Hargis and Hill describe skull being propelled back and to the left of JFK... along with all the other witnesses and the group that storms the GK.... Curry AND Decker sending men immediiately to the RR yard and overpass... etc..

And in our discussion over what Kleins sent customers who ordered c20-T750.. he readily admits that there is no evidence that any other customer ordering THAT item number rec'd the same type of rifle found in the TSBD... none.

I indeed find him cryptic, eccentric, and very interesting. While presenting the data and evidence from which he bases his conclusions...

The world accroding to FETZVISION and the wrath endured just to discuss anything with him is nauseating. IMO, HE'S one of the main reasons JFK CTs are not taken seriously on a grand scale... he'd rather fight you over Oswald in the Doorway... or Chaney motoring up much too soon... then discuss the evidence he offers and realize some of the holes in the logic, support and conclusions... I agree with much he concludes, like others, which makes his treatment all the more disturbing and deconstructive.

yet again.... until the world was PROVEN round... you were seen as crazy if you said so... Jim MAY be in great company - and maybe time will tell.

Cheers

DJ

Tom,

I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches...

the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of...

I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea)

and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me.

A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting.

DJ

Jim...

You are obviously married to your conclusions and the evidence you believe supports it...

Personally, I do not see these different testimonies supporting the scenario as you describe it... Chaney DID NOT MOTOR FORWARD until after he stopped and well after McIntyre...

Fixing that in time as you have requires very special FETZERVISION and removing the distinction between "fugurative" & "literal" speach.

Which early Hargis are you comparing to the WCR Hargis, recorded statements?

As there is nothing in the Dallas Archives authored by Hargis... but more probably is included in a batch of other reports?

Let me ask you ...

Do you see that a possible scenario is that in the time it takes Kellerman to call Lawson and turn... 2-3 seconds pass? (Hargis says the limo slowed AFTER the shots)

That 2-3 seconds after z313 we see both Hill and Jackie on the trunk, and I believe we see Kellerman looking back

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Hill is telling us that z313 happens when he is near the back of the limo

Altgens says the headshot happens 15 feet from him

Funny thing as we ALL KNOW JIM... is that this doesnt happen until z342+

What I wold still like to understand is how the alteration of this specific instance was accomplished...

Logic and evidence tells us the headshot occured 30-40 feet further down the road... that Altgens and Brehm were correct... the limo at worst was creeping along at 2-3 mph at the time of these

headshot(s) - which I believe was one from the front, higher on the head and one from the back causing the lower damage...

HOW DID "THEY" MAKE IT APPEAR AS IF THE HEADSHOT(S) OCCURRED 30-40 FEET EAST OF WHAT WE SEE IN Z/NIX/MUCHMOORE.... STOPPED OR NOT THE SHOOTING ITSELF OCCURRED FURTHER DOWN ELM...

Jim, if you could explain that so we can understand it... it would go a long way in understanding the Zfilm alteration argument...

I do NOT WANT the history of the film and every detail... just the headshot and how what we see today ie Moorman, can be accurate while the films are not...

thanks

DJ

David,

The earlier reports are almost always the more reliable. By the time they got certain witnesses before the commission, the

staff knew what they were going to say--by and large--where Kellerman has to have surprised them. You are pitting later Hargis

against earlier Hargis. But earlier Hargis is going to be more reliable: his memory was fresher, his candor less constrained, and his

testimony hangs together with that of Curry, Sorrels, Chaney, Hill, and (now) Kellerman. That powerful proof about what happened.

PERFECT ILLUSTRATION:

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Since what he is reporting obviously occurred BEFORE the limo took off and BEFORE it reached the TUP, I have supposed that you, like

me, would put Curry + Sorrels + Hargis + Chaney + Hill + Kellerman = the Zapruder film has been faked! We don't see all this in the film!

That under the pressure of testifying before the commission there would be variations from their original reports should not come as any

surprise. Their testimony was being massaged! What is important, from this point of view, is that Kellerman confirms what Hill reported.

Jim

I thought you were actually thinking things through

That's okay Jim... You have thoughts that are wrong quite often as I come to see...

The "testimony" of the men you list do not PROVE that these events occured before the TUP at all...

and what I am trying to point out ARE the Zfilm problems as they relate to the memories of these men...

for example...

Mr. STERN - But, you cannot now recall more than two shots?

Mr. HARGIS - That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them.

Mr. STERN - Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have Just described?

Mr. HARGIS - You mean about the blood hitting---

Mr. STERN - Yes.

Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"

Mr. STERN - Someone inside--

Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.

Mr. STERN - Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots?

Mr. HARGIS - Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was Just a little back and left of--Just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from.

there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them. yet after this statement you are ok with his recollection?

not so much Jim.... seems to me he has a few problems with time and sound...

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down - so according to Hargis, the limo slows AFTER the headshot...

yet that contradicts Altgens and Brehm who both say the limo barely moved between z255 and z313... 10-15 feet during this period...

and then they slowed AFTER that?

to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through - how can Hargis possibly know this? Is "he" JFK or ??

and please address Bell and McIntyre... Didn't Chaney himself say in that interview he did not remember doing that... that he stopped and then raced to the rest of the cars AFTER?

Notice that EVEN CHANEY acknowledges that there were "at least between 60 and 75 people that day who claimed the car stopped". My inference would be that Chaney is unsure because, as John observed, Chaney was motoring forward and, given his relative motion, did not recognize that it had stopped.

A: I know.. I don’t know whether the lead car ever stopped or not. I know that.. I mean Kennedy’s car. The one behind them apparently did because an officer could run from the left hand side in front of me. I know I stopped. Whatever happened there. I know Hargis, one of the officers riding escort on the other side, run across in front of me.

Q: Yeah, Bobby. I just spoke to him a few minutes ago. There are, I think, at least between 60 and 75 people that day who claimed the car stopped. But even if it didn’t stop..

A: Whether or not the lead car stopped.. I don’t believe that it did. It slowed down though. What was this agent’s name? Clint Hill?

Q: Right.

Here is classic Fetz... the man asking the question states the 60-75 #... NOT Chaney

Chaney says he stopped... which the films show

He refers to the JFK limo as the "lead car" in the first sentence... and then again by mistake... He does NOT believe the lead car stopped...

YOU posted the comments on the statements. And it is misleading and simply false.

A(Chaney): I don’t recall myself stopping but as I stopped to think of it I must have come almost to a stop for Hargis to have got off his motor over on the left-hand side and run between those two cars and run in front of me. Apparently, I did too. I don’t recall stopping but I must have

The Nix film shows this plain as day...

More importantly is WHY you maintain this line of reasoning when there are so many other areas that do not work related to the Zfilm...

and why... when you are engaged with someone who agrees that the Zfilm is a real problem, do you treat them like you do?

Just your warm, charming and winning way?

My mistake, David. I thought you were actually thinking things through. With the testimony of Chief Curry, Forrest Sorrels, Bobby Hargis, Officer Chaney, and Clint Hill, I supposed you could appreciate the key point that Roy Kellerman is making in this quote:

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Since what he is reporting obviously occurred BEFORE the limo took off and BEFORE it reached the TUP, I naively supposed that you could put Curry + Sorrels + Hargis + Chaney + Hill + Kellerman = the Zapruder film has been faked! Or do you see this in the film?

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm

To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement.

This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use...

You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo.

So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP.

In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across..

Anyone talking about Kellerman's "flurry" should specify that this flurry meant two shots. When I see the word "flurry," I interpret it as many instances. I bet that every member here thought Kellerman meant more than 2 shots the first time they heard of this "flurry." but the fact is that Kellerman's flurry= 2:

"Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least."

If Kellerman had been confident about hearing a three-shot flurry or larger, he would have said "at least three," but he said at least two (after the first shot). Instead of "double bang, bang," he would have said, "triple bang, bang."

Kellerman's testimony is consistent with what Pat Speer found to be the most frequent shot sequence heard by witnesses: three audible shots, the last two being closely spaced and the first two being not so close (bang...........bang bang). The use of a silencer is plausible in Speer's analysis since there seem to have been shots at both frame 190 and 223 or so; but people only heard one of these (Kellerman is an example).

Hi Andric...

I believe you must read Kellerman's testimony with an understanding of the extremempressures he may have been under to tow the company line.... 3 shots and only 3 shots...

and while he does eventually come around to that, he is very careful to speak of "opinions"

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.

Please notice here how all of a sudden they wake up and go on the offensive. Yes, his testimony does ultimately state he HEARD 3 shots... Does it also suggest that he believed there were more than 3 shots? maybe check out his comments in RED.... He goes as far as he can imo... as do many of the witnesses within the government/military...

That's the great thing about this case... there is more to read between the lines than what was ever actually said... for these witnesses... for the non-governmental witnesses... the WC simply ignored, changed etc.... to suit the purpose....

Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?

Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.

Representative FORD. Is that why you have described--

Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.

Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."

Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion.

Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you--

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true.

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm

To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement.

This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use...

You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo.

So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP.

In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across...

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

He may have said somehting about laying across theur bodies at some future point... but not for the WCR. In fact, if we are to take him at his word regarding the hole he sees, I think it only appropriate to take him at his word regarding his trip to Parkland

Yet most disturbing is this line of Q&A.... as Purvis has tried to prove, the SECOND SHOT was 313 in the z film... AND

he corroborates the idea that it is JFK's HAND we see in that photo and NOT his foot, (I think the small item in front of JFK's hand is Hill's foot)...

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

In fact, from the available evidence that we can actually believe is authentic...

the events you describe happened much later and well after the limo would EVER have been filmed by Zapruder....

Bell shows Hill still almost vertical as he is seen in

McIntyre and as he is seen later in

Moore?? (I forget who took the hand that becomes a foot photo - plus I tried to include here but it would not let me add a third image.. i will post it next.)

See Kellerman testimony............How many shots could there have been ?

The SS called them a “flurry “ of shots..that came into the limo..

Roy H. Kellerman-'.''

Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.

JFK

TWO IN THE HEAD

ONE IN THE SHOULDER

ONE IN THE NECK

JC

CHEST

WRIST

THIGH

Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?

How is this anything but near the right temple? "TO THE RIGHT OF THE EAR"

How is it poossible to locate something to the right of the right ear and have it be in the BACK of the head?

and do we have any idea 2which photo he is referring to?

Where is this entrance wound?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Doesn’t this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later..

The gif below is from z350-400... This would be the only time that Kellerman would see them both on the back of the limo...

"Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Is this how y'all see it?

DJ

Unfortunately, it does not "prove" anything.

It does however serve to support the other testimonies as to when the third shot impact occurred.

In fact, if one will correlate the testimonies of Kellerman and Greer regarding transmission over the radio, with the testimonies of Agent Hill, they will find other testimonies which, when all placed into perspective, will serve to indicat that the third shot impact occurred just as James Altgens said it did.

Directly in front of where he was standing.

Tom

P.S. And of course Nellie as well as JBC have repeatedly stated that the third shot impact which blew cerebral tissue all over them, occurred AFTER JBC was leaned over in the seat with his head in Nellie's lap.

From this, and the survey plats and survey notes in my possession, it would now appear that the Warren Commission was severely lacking in their attempt at making one of the three shots (the third shot) disappear.

Yes Tom... supports the other statements about the final shot location... but does not agree with your 3 shots 3 hits conclusion....

There was a frontal shot to his head from the front... whether this is the left or right temple entrance... who knows since we've never seen the actual authentic evidence...

Yet there are so many people supporting a GK shot... as opposed to any other spot in the entire Plaza...

Nobody runs to the south knoll, Dal Tex, or even the TSBD (Baker only goes cause he sees the pigeons fly off the roof)

Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner.

In building the case for z alteration, this is yet another brick...

B -

Did you mean to say the LEFT HAND TURN from Houston to Elm

or

The RIGHT HAND TURN from Main onto Houston?

both are not in the film yet there could not be a right hand turn from Elm to Houston.. right?

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the--

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Doesn’t this suggest shots well after 313 since we KNOW Hill does not reach the limo until z340, and JAckie is not on the trunk until much later..

The gif below is from z350-400... This would be the only time that Kellerman would see them both on the back of the limo...

"Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Is this how y'all see it?

DJ

Maybe someone can explain what happened at 154-158 and 207-212...

In BOTH instances the intersprocket area gets blacked out...

In the WCR version of 212... not only is there a tear in 207 just below Rosemary Willis...

but there also seems to be a straight razor slice both under this tear and in z212 (or may be artifacts from the copying process?)

My question...

If the tear is published in the WCR and z207 was damaged to that extent... how do we see a normal z207 and 212 after the fact...

with z208-211 re inserted and no evidence of the splice?

How was z207 and 212 FIXED? z207 looks pretty badly damaged yet comes out clear and fine later on...

Where as 155 remains pretty badly damaged... do you have any idea what happened to those frames for them to come out looking like that?

I didn' t know House looked like Oswald.

He looks ALOT like him... right?

Now I have a few more problems with this TIPPIT thing...

What is being done to Tippit from 1:25 DOA until 3:15 when Rose finally starts the autopsy...?

Why to Methodist if he was DOA, when Parkland does the autopsies?

Which ambulance picks him up? 601,2,3,5,6,7, or 10? or a Dudley ambulance... do we have those records?

I also want to go back to this FBI report... At Methodist, although a bad copy, Liguori does mention the temple shot.....

yet only 2 other wounds... one being the brass button wound, from which Moellenhoff gives Davenport the bullet,

the other a wound to the abdomen..

Except Rose, at Parkland, describes 4 wounds with 3 bullets recovered....

Why would Methodist remove a bullet from a dead cop at the request of another cop BEFORE the autopsy? Isn't that tampering with evidence?

What is going on prior to the autopsy so that 5 shots becomes 3 wounds, becomes 4 wounds and only 3 bullets?

Craig... on the one hand you assert these people "haven't a clue" about photography...

and in the very next you as ask THEM to explain that which you KNOW thay can't...

Since you ask the questions, knowing full well their answers... why not just answer them here...

Why 317 is the focus and not 323... I am at a loss... 323 shows this blackout much more clearly and looks much more artificial than any other frame...imo..

So explain Craig... why, if the blackness in this frame is all the result of shadow... why do they ALL not blossom out like what we see at the back of his head...

Greer's hair is still n place, Nellie's, JC's Jacket, Jcakie's hair... ALL are blackened by the shadows yet do not grow to extend past their recognized boundaries

The right side of JAckie's face is in the exact position that the back of JFK's head... why are we not seeing a dark shadow there or her hair contrasted out to bleed into her face...

JFK shows blackness on the back of the head right above and below very light areas... sincere question here CL... why, of all these shadows... does JFK's look so artificial?

thanks

DJ

thx Duncan...

do you have video of the others arrested looking like Oswald... I thought there was one or two more...

One in Dallas (?)

Cheers

DJ

Yes he did Jim... yet not until 1978 at the HSCA

What's his story about not giving any statements prior to this?

And I also notice he says both were coming East on 10th.... fwiw

Below that is Cimino's statement... which ends with him seeing the hole in the head...

Yet still Jim... how do all the eye witnesses miss this last shot? 3-4 RAPID shots (cause it was an automatic pistol)

a pause and then a single shot....

Markham, Scoggins AND DB miss that.... and why are each of these statements so similiar?

FRANCIS KINNETH, 1425 Caidwell, Dallas, Texas, advised he was employed on a construction job at the intersection of Denver and Tenth Street, Dallas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. He advised at approximately 1:00 PM he had heard approximately two or three shots and, looking in a westerly direction, he saw a parked police car and a uniform police officer lying on the ground in front of same. At the same time he observed an individual running west on Tenth Street turning south on a street, the name of which he does not know.

ELBERT AUSTIN, 8317 Fourth Avenue, Dallas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was working on a construction job at the intersection of Tenth and Denver Street, Dallas, Texas. He advised he was a brick mason's helper and was assisting in the construction of an apartment house. Me stated sometime after 1:00 PM he was on a scaffold in front of the aforementioned apartment house when he heard approximately two or three shots and, looking in a westerly direction, he saw a policeman lying in front of a police car on the left front side.

L. J. LEWIS, 7616 Hums, Pleasant Grove, Texas, advised he is presently self-employed as a wholesale car dealer. LEWIS advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was on the used car lot of Johnny Reynolds Used Cars together with HAROLD RUSSELL and PAT PATTERSON, during which time they heard approximately three or four gun shots coming from the vicinity of Tenth and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. Approximately one minute later he observed a white male, approximately thirty years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying either an automatic pistol or a revolver in his hands, and while running was either attempting to reload same or conceal the weapon in his belt line.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tatum.htm

BAYLOR UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER

Wednesday, Feb. 1st, 1978.

OFFICE OF PHOTO DEPARTMENT OF HOBIEZELLE HOSPITAL

3500 GASTON AVE, DALLAS, TEXAS.

Investigators Jack Moriarty and Joe Basteri, menders of the Select Committee on Assassinations, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington., D.C. are in the office of the Director of Photography of the hospital mentioned above, and Mr. JACK RAY TATUM, The Director, has been interviewed with regard to his first hand knowledge, of the Fatal shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit, here in Dallas, Friday, November 22nd, 1963.

Mr. Tatum will reiterate his statement to be reduced to typewritten form

(By Moriarty) "Mr. Tatum, if you'll repeat your statement slowly, I'll attempt to type it."

Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton). I heard three shots in rapid (illegible)I went right through the intersection, stopped my car and turned to look back. I then saw the officer lying on the street and saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street. At that point this young man looked around him and then started to walk away in my direction and as he started to break into a small run in my direction, I sped off in my auto. All I saw him to the intersection and run south on Patton towards Jefferson.

Q. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald, Officer Tippit or anyone else at the scene.

A. No

Q Did you not report this information to the authorities?

A. There were more than enough people there and I could not see what I could contribute.

Q. Is there anything you wish to add to your statement?

A. At this time I can't think or anything.

Jack Moriarty Joe Basteri Jack R. Tatum

Feb, 1 1978

FRANK CIMINO, 403 East Tenth Street, Apartment 7, Dallas, Texas, advised that on November 22, 1963, he was residing in an apartment at 405 East Tenth Street. He Stated that at around 1 p.m. he was at his apartment listening to the radio. He heard four loud noises which sounded like shots and then he heard a women scream. (DJ: This corroborates Helen's story along with a number of others... 1:06 is yet again supported) He jumped up. put on his shoes and ran outside the house, and a woman dressed like a waitress was out in front of his residence shouting, "Call the police". She also advised a man had just shot a police officer and stated he had run west on Tenth Street and pointed in the direction of an alley which runs between Tenth Street and Jefferson off Patton Street. He looked in this direction but did not see anyone. He then walked over to the officer and saw he had been shot in the head.

and finally Jim... if you or I or anyone saw this person running doing ANYTHING and then, after Oswald is captured and given those ridiculous line-ups...is asked to ID which in the line-up they saw... or which in a photo they saw... Oswald comes to mind...

no?

Follow me aloing for a minute....

A lot has been written about the shells at the Tippit scene being described as AUTOMATICS by Hill

1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol.

and the comment back was how do the shells get so far away from the body if auto shells that eject after firing... that they HAD to be regualr shells

that the killer emptied and threw here and there...

My point? No one testifies to this person kneeling down to pick up these shells...

How is it that we know the killer(s) didn't do that?

I ask because the killer also went around to Tippit laying on the ground and shot him in the head... at quite an interesting angle.... yet the witnesses say no such thing....

Aren't Markham and Benavidas and SCoggins the BEST of the Tippit witnesses? Yet not one of them sees this final shot? [/color]

Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I heard the other two shots (DJ: so we have the first TWO SHOTS and these OTHER TWO SHOTS) and I looked up and the Policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see the Policeman as he fell?

Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?

Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast. LIKE AN AUTOMATIC WEAPON??

Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear?

Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall.

Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall?

Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots, and I started to get out-- since we went back over there the other day and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Three.

Mr. BALL. What did you see the policeman do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street.

Mr. BALL. What did the man do?

Mrs. MARKHAM. The man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun.

Mr. BALL. Toward what direction did he walk?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Come back towards me, turned around, and went back.

Mr. BALL. Toward Patton?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; towards Patton. He didn't run. It just didn't scare him to death. He didn't run. When he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. I put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. I gradually opened my fingers like this, and 1 opened my eyes, and when I did he started off in kind of a little trot.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.

Tippit autopsy report

Can ANYONE provide PROOF, that Tippit was shot in the head at 10th and Patton... according to this FBI report... Dr. Liguori does not mention a headwound at all

and bullets are removed in the ambulance, at Methodist AND at Parkland???

We KNOW he was shot in the head....

Why didn't anybody see it?

How is it possible that these three BEST WITNESSES do not recall an execution style shot to the head?

and to bring this full circle...

Seems very likely then that if they missed what is assumed to have happened BEFORE the killer runs away, they would easily have missed him picking up the shells....

I have always seen the clapping hands and slight movements of the crowd along elm that is claimed to be static....

I did a stablized gif of these people and found this strange as the white thing there just appears and is gone in one frame...

add this to the z152 frame comparison of "Lost Bullet" and other Zfilms where the lady in the blue/purple coat loses part of the right most side of the coat... (thx Gerda)

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,5767.0.html

any ideas?

DJ

Not sure here...

but are we trying to say that because the proceedings and his mental state were mixing him up a bit... this testimony is unreliable?

and we're supposed to believe Buell's story about the mystery bag?

Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.

Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - About what time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.

Couldn't the man moving the boxes be Dougherty?

and then therE is more confusion about who saw that bag in Oswald's hands... I can find nothing that suggests Shelley sees Oswald with the bag...

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.

Mr. BALL - Who said that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.

Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.

Hi Dale...

Some say that ghost image was made later to "see if it could be done"? Yet there are so many problems with the # of photos, the # of negatives, the reality that lines were found and that if the CIA can't create an "expert" composite... not too many could.

Cheers

DJ

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my opinion that it was used directly to make the print. However, I cannot specifically eliminate the possibility of an internegative or the possibility of this photograph having been copied, a negative made by copying a photograph similar to this from which this print was.... I think this is highly unlikely, because if this were the result of a copied negative, there would normally be evidence that I could detect, such as a loss of detail and imperfections that show up due to this added process.

Although a very expertly done rephotographing and reprinting cannot positively be eliminated, I am reasonably sure it was made directly from the negative.

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is my opinion that they are not composites. Again with very, very minor reservation, because I cannot entirely eliminate an extremely expert composite.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, did you attempt to determine whether 133A had been photographed through the camera, Commission Exhibit 750?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I did not, because in order to make an examination to determine whether a photograph is made with a particular camera, you must have the negative or you must have a print of the negative that shows that shadowgraph area, and Commission Exhibit 133A does not show that shadowgraph

Therefore, no comparison could be made. It is not possible.

Except, 2 NEGATIVES WERE RECOVERED... what happened to the negative for 133-A?

(398) The 133-B negative (CE 749) was digitally processed at the

Aerospace Corp. and the University of California Image Processing

Institute using several different image-processing techniques. This

process confirmed that the grain distribution was uniform. (173) (See

g. IV-31, JFK exhibit 197.) Under very carefully adjusted display

conditions, the scanned image of the Oswald backyard negative did

exhibit irregular, very fine lines in the chin area. The lines appeared,

however, only with the Aerospace gradient-enhancement process,

where the technique was applied at a much higher resolution (i.e., the

image area scanned was magnified since only a small portion of the

picture was being subjected to the computations) .

(399) Although the cause of these lines has not been definitely established,

there is no evidence to indicate that they are the result of an

attempt to fake the photograph . This is because similar, although less

pronounced, lines were found using the same digital enhancement technique

on a known authentic photographic negative. Therefore, those

lines may have been a product of the enhancement process.

(400) Supporting evidence for this conclusion is that the fine lines

were not observed in photo-optical photochemical enhancements or in

phase-contrast microscopic inspection of the chin area. In addition,

the lines are disconnected ; they do not cross the entire chin and are

extremely fine, roughly equal in width to the size of the grain clumps

in the emulsion .

(401) Three other possible causes for the lines are suggested

(402) (1) They could be due to the presence of very fine scratches

on the glass plate used to support the film while it was being scanned ;

(403) (2) They could have been introduced during the film drying

process. Particulate and dissolved material in the film wash water can

leave a so-called water stain on film. As the water evaporates, the

particulate and dissolved material is deposited on the emulsion,

usually in thin, irregularly shaped lines. The probability of the lines

being caused by very faint water stains is heightened by the observation

of very noticeable stains in the neck and ear area, as discussed

below.* These marks are found in the work of photographers who pay

inadequate attention to the washing and drying steps in the processing

of film ;

(404) (3) Changes in emulsion temperature during processing can

cause silver grains in the emulsion to clump together m fine linear

patterns, an effect known as reticulation.

(405) While subsequent generation prints of the backyard pictures

appear to show a line running across Oswald's chin, (174) this phenomenon

is not surprising because copy prints often have higher contrasts

than originals. If an object or an original photograph of the

object has a rather diffuse band that is dark at the center but becomes

progressively lighter at the edges, a photographic or printed ink copy

very often will show that band as a distinct line with sharp edges. In

generating a copy photograph, the photographic or printing process

may not be able to depict the entire tone range of the original object

or photograph . In that case, a range of lighter tones will all appear

as a single light tone and a range of darker tones will all appear as one

dark tone. It is in this way that a broad smooth tone scale becomes a

sharp transition from dark to light. This apparently happened in

copies of the Oswald photographs, causing the shadow across the chin

to appear to be a sharp line. Accordingly, no probative value can be

attributed to such materials.

Did a quick check and found that the homes in and around 455 Elizabeth were built in the late 20's...

There's an apartment building at THAT address there now.... yet I did not find out when it was built... looks like the tenaments of the 60's...

and without an apt #, we can't be sure if it referred to this apartment or the home that may have been there prior...

Good luck!

DJ

Probably done before yet It always bothered me that it was claimed that hulls and a bolt action was heard AFTER THE FIRST SHOT

I say no way... and then two more shots? They couldn't have heard very much of anything

DJ

http://www.elcaudio.com/tablesforweb.pdf A blast of the type produced from the MC would exceed 150 decibels... These men were no more than 10-20 feet from the muzzle

These three guys wouldn't have been able to hear each other after the first shot with the ringing in their ears, let alone hulls hitting the floor OR the action of the bolt....

add to this their story of deciding to run up to the 5th floor at 12:20-12:25, taking the back entrance... to get to the shooting zone JUST IN TIME to testify hearing hulls dropping

http://www.elcaudio.com/decibel.htm

Fortunately, even the quietest rifle shots were loud enough at 50 ft. to be much louder than the ambient, or background, noise

The effects of hearing loss as a result of blasts (such as those produced by firearms) isn't as well documented as occupational hearing loss. There are individuals who have suffered permanent hearing loss as a result of shooting, but the effects of single, loud-noise events varies from person to person. One common complaint shooters have isn't hearing loss, but tinnitus (a "ringing in the ear"). It should be noted that tinnitus frequently accompanies hearing loss resulting from noise exposure.

The most well-known aftereffect of exposure to high-intensity sound is the change in auditory sensitivity. If an individual’s auditory threshold (hearing sensitivity) is measured before and after an exposure, the difference in hearing threshold levels is, by definition, the threshold shift (TS). If the threshold shift later disappears, then it is called a temporary threshold shift (TTS). If the shift does not disappear, the final measured threshold shift is called a permanent threshold shift (PTS).

The most undesirable aftereffect of exposure to high-intensity sound is a PTS. Sound-induced PTS is commonly divided into two categories depending on whether the loss was produced by a single, short exposure at a very high intensity (acoustic trauma) or by repeated longer exposures to noise at more moderate sound pressure levels. It is clear from animal studies that in acoustic trauma the inner ear has been subjected to such stress that its mechanical (or elastic) limit has been exceeded. Various structures of the organ of Corti, including hair cells (the individual receptor cells within the inner ear), may become partly or wholly detached. Additionally, one or more of the several membranes in the cochlea may be ruptured, allowing an intermixture of fluids of different composition, thereby poisoning hairs cells that survived the mechanical stress. The end consequence is a pronounced loss of hearing sensitivity at the frequencies correlated with the locus of this destruction.

In addition to studies showing that high-intensity impulse noise affects the cochlea differently than does continuous noise, there are logical reasons why the equivalent energy theorem can’t always predict risk for hearing damage. Logically, we know there are levels associated with impulses that are dangerous with just one exposure. But at lower levels, individuals can withstand almost an infinite number of the same “signature” impulses (same waveform, but at a lower intensity) without harm. Also, most of the data supporting the equivalent energy theorem have been large-scale demographic studies. Controlled laboratory studies using animals (e.g., ref. 9) have shown that hearing loss resulting from exposure to impulse noise of equal energy increases with peak level. To iterate: The danger of hearing loss resulting from a single exposure to high-intensity impulse noise is at least as great as what we would predict using Figures 1 or 2.

Richard...

re Mooney, I believe others posted this as well.... he said SOME, not TWO

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Thanks Richard... it just starts to grow hair when you think of all the people that can run down the left side...

I think Manchester's book will be valuable in placing events into context as well...

I'd also go as far as color coding the cells for the source of evidence... testimony, affidavit, CSS Forms, etc....

I think if we concentrate on just the assassination events... and expand from there... your list is a great place to start to highlight the key events for the time

and I will add them to my spreadsheet asap... as well as staying within the 11am-2pm while starting with 12:30...

I firmly believe this type of representation of the assassination will expose the conflicts very easily..

My favorite being Truly, Lumpkin and Fritz... Where the WC is trying to convince Truly he did not speak to Fritz until after the rifle was found...

Cheers... PM me if you'd like to colloborate on this... as Bill has said, there are already a number of good timelines, yet many attempt to throw in everything

rather than concentrate on specific assasiantion events

DJ

Here's a quick view of the sheet... the pink is 12:30....

The more you guys discuss this the greater my desire to get back to it...

Can include anything you like in a cell as well... links, photos, etc... and it's completely searchable..

Now, if I just had another 24 hours in each day......

Cheers

DJ

David,

Checked out your spreadsheet. Looks good. We are on the same page regarding time-stamping and locating individuals in and around the TSBD just before and just after shots were fired.