David Josephs

This is the same man, who - after a shot rings out 10 feet from his head, is able to hear the falling hull and the working of the bolt...

and is STILL able to hear a SECOND hull/bolt sound...

I posted a study of the sound levels on rifle and their effect on the ears... in ALL CASES the severe ringing makes other sound svirtually impossible to hear..

in some cases the ringing never goes away... in most it subsides in a few hours... these are 140+dBs...

Norman, Jarman and Williams have been Full of it from day 1.... "intimidated" ? in 1963 Dallas?

Say it aint so, Joe...

Harness:

"On the day of the assassination, there were several individuals removed from the train other then the three individuals previously identified"

Thesis... there we two sets of tramps... why parade the fake set thru DP, past Landsdale, past everyone?

A simple "in your face!" ?

edit: Harness ID's the three from photos as "three of the individuals who were removed from the train"

Did we see any others escorted from the RR yard?

DJ

Kathleen... really?

The Hunt kids were actually home alone that day? Guess we can ask St John.

I think my thesis actually improves if that is Hunt... that means that Chambers' reports were created for three other men... who may or may not have even been in Dallas that day.

So the question becomes who are Doyle, Abrahms & Gedney... and what did THEY look like at the time.

Rereading the FBI report on Wise's statements... it is plain that there is no connection between the names on the paper he wrote on and the three names appearing on the arrest reports...

the HSCA interviews him and he does not know the name of the three men... the HSCA does not know the names of the three men... even though there are these three arrest reports...

the policeman in front CHANGES... can you point him ouit in any subsequent photos?

Wise ways he's the guy in back... Bass in front. except on Denis' site he has Wise as the man in front...

Chambers sees the 4 photos and names Stefans and Macay (phonetic) as the front and rear policemen...

nor does he identify the three tramps as the men he supposedly wrote the reports about... that he also does not remember doing...

one interesting question is where did these three names come from... and why these three, since they were obviously NOT the three in the photos.

where they really just found hobos who were used specifically for this?

I hear you Tom...

I keep most of the images I use on a flash drive and up load to photobucket as needed... I like having them at my fingertips...

With regards to WHEN... I am saying that the three we see in the photos are not the three listed on the Arrest Reports, or the three who were incarcerated for 4 days...

that htere really is no record of these three...

Have you seen the arrest reports? http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1023-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1025-001.gif http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1027-001.gif

Chambers doesn't even remember creating these...

What we need to find is the arrest/conviction/jail records for 11/22... I just wonder if there aren't mug shots of these three men that do not match the other photos..

Need to dig more and/or get a little help from the community out there...

Now worries at all Tom, just I think there needs to be more proven related to the tramps for one to be Hunt...

DJ

I see that Tom... but you see.. I DO CARE

(I suggest you open up a thread to discuss your theory... an interesting one for sure but has nothing to do with the fact I started this thread to determine what others might be able to add to the base of knowledge regarding the ACTUAL EVENTS related to their being photographed to begin with... and the ploice involved.

When I looked closer I found the info I posted and hoped for some assistence...

The duplicity of things is a theme that runs throughout the evidence..

Do you not have a comment on either that thought, or the events related to these "tramps" in clean clothes, clean appearance, and wearing socks?

If there were indeed two sets, I believe that would give you theory more strength in that those pictured COULD NOT BE the hobos kept in jail for 4 days...

and MUST be others who may indeed have something to say or give to Landsdale..

We're on the same page here Tom... jsut not yet in the same spot.

DJ

I searched the forum yet did not find a thread dedicated to the death certificate(s) themselves....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-06-jfk-death-cert-sale_N.htm

McElroy, now 68, worked for the Vernon O'Neal Funeral Home, which provided the nearly $4,000 solid bronze casket that contained Kennedy's body on the flight back to Washington, D.C.

When the funeral home filed the death certificate to the Dallas Bureau of Vital Statistics on Dec. 11, 1963, McElroy said the agency noticed the mistakes and requested an amendment. His boss simply typed a new version and began to throw the original away. McElroy said he stopped him.

A "NEW" version?

Here they are side by side... Since the wording is not the same on both, McElroy's story may make sense...

So if the ARRB version is the NEW ORIGINAL... where are all the signatures... all we have are Ward's?

Is MD43 THE official Death Cert?

DJ

Okay Tom...

what exactly does that supposition without any factual basis have to do with the real discrepancies between the stories of those law enforcement officers involved with these men?

If you could look into my allegation that there were TWO EVENTS with TWO SETS OF HOBOS... and give me your thoughts, I would appreciate it.

The men Wise describe are not the same men that Chambers describe...

and if Doyle, one of the supposed tramps, says they were in jail until the 26th when released - as it says on Chambers' paperwork... where is the rest of the documentation related to that conviction, sentencing, etc...

Is that even Chamber's writing?

DJ

Thanks Patrick....

What I find most interesting about the three tramps is the similiarity of the DUAL TEAMS AND EVENTS that occur here...

and how that pattern is seen throughout the assassination evidence...

I have no direct knowledge of CIA operations... yet it does make sense to confuse the issue with duplicates of key pieces of evidence...

Use the actual events when they convict Oswald... and use the secondary events when the actual events don't do the trick...

Starting with the duplicate Oswalds... I believe you can trace duplicates in MANY key events...

I do not see how these three tramps are the same people that Chambers, Jones, Vaughn etc interact with compared to what Wise tells us...

cheers

DJ

Was Chambers ever shown these photos and asked if these were the men?

Martin...

That which has been "blantantly obvious" over the years - changes.

I have come to learn, right here in fact, that those that assume an item of evidence is authentic should prove it.. belief & faith is best reserved for religion and childhood fairytales

Tom has done some great work in other areas... yet he keeps referring to the medical evidence as some reliable and authentic means of describing the injuries...

He posts with an air of underlying knowledge that only he has and the rest of us are just outside looking in..

So under that realization I'd still like to know who, after his conclusions regardint eh damage done by CE399... it comes into existence...

Who do you suppose has CE399 - i.e. which is the first recorded evidence showing CE399 as the current bullet in evidence? The CE photos?

DJ

All well and good gentlemen - yet this still does not answer the question...

How does the bullet that becomes CE399 come into existence?

The bullet Wright gives to Johnsen was NOT CE399 according to Wright and Johnsen...

The bullet Johnsen gives to Rowley is NOT CE399 according to Johnsen and Rowley

The bullet Rowley gives to Todd is NOT CE399 according to Rowley

The bullet Todd gives to Frazier, supposedly at 7:30 when Johnsen is at the White House giving Rowley the envelope...

Todd's initials are finally on THIS BULLET which is now the CE399 bullet.

Tom Purvis is guessing at best as to the flight of a bullet....

"My God I'm Hit" is what Kellerman says JFK said, right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

So Purvis' idea that a bullet enters shallow in JFK's back is imo, correct, just as Humes said.

The throat wound cames after one of the headshots... we get this from Rankin's statement about the autopsy report...

There is no evidence whatsover that places CE399 in Dallas, or at least not at Parkland Hospital...

and then there is the Shanklin bullet...

So until he cites any piece of authenticated evidence, I dont see how his scenario works

DJ

Why do you not see that there was a very specific and powerful group of Russians who would indeed LOSE

if JFK remained president and the relations between the countries improved?

The KBG and the Russian industrialists AND the government leaders stood to lose Billions on Peace...

and this group is on par with the same bunch in the US... and both are "controlled" by the ebb and flow of capital...

What I find most amusing in your post... ?

"There is just no evidence of it" - as if the largest spy organizations in the world would allow evidence to exist that leads back to them...

The only real evidence against LBJ is circumstantial... he was in a position to save his ass by looking the other way and cooperating.. possibly even helping to make it happen as you propose..

yet trying to argue that Hoover helped kill or coverup the JFK assassination cause he didn't want to retire is absurd.

These men were in the business of pleasing their masters... the Russians, as JFK said... breathe the same air....

DJ

Yes, Martin, I obviously agree with your analysis. My question revolves around the contradictory nature of the two sentences. How can these possibly be reconciled? If they can't be, isn't what is among the best evidence against the single bullet theory contained within the Warren Report itself?

As Judge Judy says: "If it don't make sense, it ain't true"!

Tom

Tom,

I asked you the same thing on a different thread...

How does the bullet that becomes CE399 get from JFK's Back to Elmer Todd?

I have yet to see you offer a single item that makes that connection...

Based on the evidence, all Todd needed to do was bring Frazier a bullet and initial it...

SA Johnsen is given the bullet at Parkland by Wright Dir of Security

SA Johnsen flies to DC, and at 7:30 types an explanation of the chain of custody... giving Rowley the Envelope the Bullet is supposedly in...

SA Johnsen also says that CE399 cannot be identified as the bullet he gave Rowley...

and Finally Frazier's notes tell us he rec'd this bullet from TODD at 7:30pm Fri night... which is impossible is Johnsen was first giving it to Rowley at this time....

Will you be offering us any evidence at all to connect CE399 to Parkland or Dallas other than it was shot out of the rifle that too was in DC that night??

http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/mystery.html

I mean, of course, the assassination of JFK, not something of a kinkier nature, you naughty boys and girls!

You know, common maybe they had some common "vested interests" and all that? Or, maybe it was a case of "You scratch my back, I'll scratch your back, and we'll both get filthy rich (or at least a shiny new Lada/Ferrari and a dacha/summer home on the Black Sea/in La Jolla!)".

--Tommy

The answer is yes, it is possible the CIA and the Russian GRU could have conspired to kill John Kennedy.

But the probability of that is about 100 million to one against the theory. Why would the GRU kill a dove in the White House just to get a hawk that might be more likely to put the USA in Vietnam, possibly invade Cuba and engage them elsewhere in the world? Especially when the USA was the far superior nuclear power at that time.

Back then at the height of Cold War tensions, when the world almost blew up during the Cuban Missile Crisis ... why would the Russians want to aggravate that and risk complete annihilation and NO dacha and NO summer home? ... because the cities incinerated would be Moscow and possibly Wash DC.

Why are you wasting Education Forum space with this? Why not ask if all the Chinese farted at the same time, would the Earth be knocked off its rotation and would that affect the climate?

This theory seems similar to Hugh McDonald's "Appointment in Dallas: The Final Solution to the Assassination of JFK." I think he had the Russians and Lyndon Johnson in on the plot together.

http://www.amazon.com/Appointment-Dallas-Final-Solution-Assassination/product-reviews/0821738933/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I think a much more likely possiblity is the LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK: http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/2011/12/lbj-cia-assassination-of-jfk-updated.html

Hold up a second Robert...

Are you trying to tell us that you cannot see how HAWKS in the KGB as well as the ruling economic elite in Russia (yes virginia, there really are wealthy people in communist nations)

would not want to perpetuate the Cold War and avoid peace at all costs...? Yet you have no problem with the HAWKS of the USA, in the Military and CIA, to perpetuate the Cold War?

I think you are missing the role of the emerging global corporations, financed by the international banks and the benefit derived by the constant state of Cold (and Hot) War.

Billions upon billions of "officially spent money" was lost in Russia when the Cold War finally ended... Where the US government & companies just shifted focus from the WAR on Communism to the WAR on Terrorism and continued to spend accordingly, the Russian economy was corrupted by organized crime taking on all shapes and persona.

Richard Case Nagell was not even sure which side was ordering him to kill Oswald...

I believe if you step back and see the overriding focus was on MONEY and POWER... and that the groups that desired control of such things continue regardless of ideology, theology, political party or any other such nonsense... AND add that the CIA as well as a number of other agencies were choked full of "communists" who thought it crucial NEVER to give in to the USA..

It is not such a stretch to see cooperation among thieves to keep their livlihoods AND organizations intact.

To dovetail back to your thesis - LBJ - he cooperated cause of all the money involved, and his freedom. "None Dare Call It a Conspiracy" helps in this question to see that the CIA and KGD were in the same business... perpetuate the organization, protect the organization, expand the organization so that a state of fear persists and people will be more and more willing to give up personal freedoms and liberty to FEEL protected...

JFK's future dictated that these two agencies would no longer be needed - or at least be seriously curtailed... and they both knew it.

And this is why men like Dub'ya Bush do not get executed... He's one of THEM

CE399 only comes into existance when SA Elmer Todd brings it to Frazier...

The bullet from Tomlinson thru Rowley is NOT identified as CE399

SA Johnson cannot ID CE399 as the bullet he gave to Rowley or had gotten from Wright

Rowley does NOT identify the bullet as the one he rec'd or the one he gave to Todd.

Todd claims in JUNE of 1964, that the bullet he rec'd from Rowley IS CE399 since TODD'S initials are on them...

Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.

Mr. EISENBERG - Does that have your mark on it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it does.

Mr. EISENBERG - The bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. There is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. At this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis.

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.

Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet

Good thing those "slight traces" of what may have been JFK's jacket, shirt, skin, muscle, or blood... or JC's jacket, short, skin, muscle, blood, & bone did not INTERFERE with the investigation...

So Tom... once again... how does the bullet that becomes CE399 get from JFK's back to Elmer Todd?

DJ

I'd really like to hear more about the evidence related to those involved with the actual tramps....

There are two sets of teams within the DPD that deal with "three hobos" and they do not seem to cross...

Wise's name is not on any documentation related to these men, while Chambers' is...

Wise is mistaken about Middleton... supposedly he was not working that day

And no one else is questioned about these men, the Chambers group does not ID any photos of these men as being the same as the ones they handled

Doyle says they were convicted and jailed and released

Chambers says he let's them go

Wise says Decker talks to them for 5 mins and then lets them go...

What up?

Now, as we all know, the bullet ostensibly found on the Governor's stretcher was CE 399, about as pristine a bullet as you could imagine, apart from some slight flattening which could have been achieved by firing the bullet into water. So, according to the Warren Commission, the tests by the wound ballistics experts prove that the wrist wound was not caused by that bullet.

Barry,

CE399 was not at Parkland

It was not on the Govenor's stretcher

It was not "pristine"... it was indeed fired and parts of the jacket and inner lead were no longer there before pieces are taken for "study"

Case in point... any organic or fiberous material on a bullet that supposedly passes thru 2 men might help to prove such a theory, no?

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? That is, did you clean it or in any way alter it?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it was not necessary. The bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way.

Mr. EISENBERG - There was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. Now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just ,in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet.

Is it just me, but if there was any material on this bullet, either organic or inorganic, wouldn't the FBI be interested in that as evidence?

This FBI AGENT is happy that the bullet that supposedly passed thru

jacket - shirt - skin - muscle - ?? - skin - jacket - shirt - skin - muscle - bone - muscle - skin - (I forgot shirt&jacket) - skin - wrist bone - muscle - skin - pants - skin - muscle

AND all that blood along the way

and this FBI AGENT is glad it was not necessary to CLEAN... so he would have actually CLEANED it first if it was...?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.

Todd says CE399 IS the bullet he gets from Rowley... yet Rowley cannot confirm it is the one he got from Johnson and GAVE to SA Todd.

Todds initials are the first initials on CE399 before Frazier, Cunningham etc...

From all indications Todd, who was the SA who badgered Perry, inserted the bullet currently in evidence as CE399 into the process after Rowley gave him a different bullet.

CE399 was never at Parkland Mr Purvis

and it did not exist until Todd gives it to Frazier...

Now... where did TODD GET IT?

One of my favorite in fact... the range of expression and emotion...

Tom,

if that's Hunt...

{sigh}

cheers

DJ

Agree completely Thomas...

yet I believe this photo of Hunt is taken around the time the tramps are found, or at least in the RR yard still..

But as evident from this photo he was somewhere in DP during the shooting... I think he was on Houston... just need to check all the images again...

More importantly though are the problems with Wise's FBI report and how it does not pan out...

How are they released by Decker that afternoon yet are not signed out until the 26th?

I'm saying there was a different group of tramps the Chambers/Wise Arrest reports are referring to...

Has anyone ever published a photo of these men circa 1963 NOT from this batch of photos?

If they were "convicted of vagrancy" per Doyle, wouldn't mug shots have been taken?

Rereading Chambers FBI report Jones/Chambers/Grinell/Wagner are the officers involved...No Wise or Bass or Vaughn...

CHAMBERS says he released the hobos... that they were very dirty, clothes dirty and wore no socks... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312

Page 3 - Capt Jones tells Chambers AT THIS POINT that they arrested the individual who shot Tippit and HE WAS THE ONE WHO SHOT KENNEDY....

This is AFTER a suggestion to test these hobos for gunpowder residue...

Chambers says to them they are free to go.... yet is then confused about the ARREST REPORTS...

I think it is safe to say that none of these policemen were ever shown these photos and asked if these were the same men...

Two seperate sets of events... now where have we heard THAT before?

I do not believe the older tramp is Hunt... we have a photo of Hunt crossing the street, imo... yet you will notice how few shots the old tramp is visible in and the one full shot of him he is doing the sour face thing...

The idea that Lansdale, if it is, is allowed to walk past the first policeman (which I see Denis has listed as Wise... Wise said he was in back?) and then walk past these MURDER SUSPECTS...

is patently absurd... would NEVER happen in the real world of cops and robbers

I cannot comment on the passing of info as that requires too much supposition for me... but everything else about these men, the police, Landsdale and the actual comments from one of the supposed tramps about a shower and clean up leads me to keep digging.

More as soon as I dig it up

DJ

After searching the Forum for TRAMPS... I still find a variety of different opinions and conclusions...

The first being the discrepency between Wise's FBI interview where he talks about MIDDLETON being part of the three tramp escort team with him and Bass

EXCEPT, Middleton claims he did not work 11/22/63 http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10273-10392

MORE IMPORTANTLY is the statement by Wise that he and BASS escorted the three tramps and that they are in all the pictures..

Well, not so much as I have combined the images and we see that the cops in the Landsdale photo are NOT the same as in the other photos, especially the man in front...

Could this be Vaughn who magically becomes Bass and disappears? The WC only asks Vaugh about the Oswald murder... not a thing about the tramps...

Well - Mr Wise here does not seem to get anything right about that day...

and then when we add Chambers, whose name appears on the three "Arrest Reports on Investigative Prisoner", yet his memory of the incident is even worse...

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10180-10305 go to page 4 of these hand writtne notes and find that a bit was left out of the final report....

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221 on page 2 of the Doyle FBI interview they state that the three men had gone to a mission in the morning of 11/22 and took showers and cleaned up and had a noon meal

Yet when looking at all the notes from Wise and other, these men were "Filthy and smelled badly". They had no socks as well...

And finally, Wise was told "They were released" after spending 5 minutes in Decker's office... he does not see them leaving the usual way... and each of the "Arrest Reports" has them discharged on the 26th... 4 days later...

1) Can we confirm who the policemen in the photos are? Who is Wise, Bass, Middleton (who said he was not there) and Vaughn?

2) Were there two sets of tramps? AS these men were definitely not "filthy and smelly" from appearance and Doyle states they had just showered and cleaned up...

3) Doyle states that he and the other two were "convicted of Vagrancy" and sent to jail for 6 days yet were released early... Is there any proof of this?

mug shots? DPD paperwork of any kind? http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10221

What I see is an unidentified man with an earpiece who'se uniform does not match the man at the rear whose uniform is ill fitting and seems quite short for a cop while barely "guarding" three suspects taken from an area believed to have been the source of shots...

Now why parade these men when they should have been handcuffed and placed in a car - is the real question...

False Sponsors? designed to take up valuable time and effort... which they did and continue to do?

Wise tells us that he speaks to the man in the control tower (Bowers) who mentioned the three men getting into a coal car... Wise and Vaughn retrieve them (Wise is not called to testify and Vaughn is asked ONLY about the Oswald murder)

Finally, Chanbers signs the reports and has no memory of creating them...

If we assume that nothing was done without a purpose that day, and the problems with the descriptions, personnel and events related to these three are plainly obvious... I believe we MUST look at them in the context of the three men who ran out of the back of the TSBD, got into the station wagon, and easily glided onto Elm in the midst of the assassiantion aftermath to stop, pick up an Oswald, and easily ride off -

It does not add up and we must continue to find this connection...

DJ

Tom,

I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches...

the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of...

I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea)

and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me.

A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting.

DJ

Clint Hill/aka the "running & Rising man.

Might want to check out his first attempt at placement of a foot onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo and exactly how far he got with this attempt (as seen in the Z-film)

Thereafter, one just may want to compare the Z-film with the Nix film.

Tom

I've done that Tom... and it does look like there are a few missing steps.. his right foot just seems to glide down the street

1. Fragment from the Z313 jfk headshot to JBC's outstretched right arm.

2. The one and only true "magic"* bullet thereafter striking him in the right rear shoulder after he was laying over exposing his back and right shoulder between the open area of the jump seats.

*It went through JFK's head first, prior to exiting downward and striking JBC, and thereafter has done an excellent job of "disappearing'.

Tom

P.S. Certainly glad that I never believed much of anything that the WC had to say. Especially that "circle jerk" reasoning regarding "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!

Now you say that JFK was hit by 3 shots... and that the headshot creates the wrist wound to JC... (and most likely the small hole in JFK's neck)

Aren't you missing the shot thru Connally's chest? The shot that hit the manhole cover area? The shot that caused dust and sparks to fly up just after the turn onto Elm?

The multitude of witnesses related to the GK area shot(s)? The Tague shot?

Point remains Tom... Kellerman and Hill describe a shot that occurs just as Hill is getting to the limo

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

This is absurd... he marks areas that are substantially UP the street when the zfilm puts him farther down the street and it is STILL not far enough down Elm to accurately describe the location...

Can you please state specifically why you do not believe JFK was hit from the front at all? My understanding was that the tests done showed no way for a bullet to hit at the rear of a head and not cause substantial damage to the face.... the photos do not match the xrays which do not match the witness descriptions...

Perfect

DJ

Appreciate that position indeed....

Yet... it remains very difficult to imagine that the one piece of evidence offering the most definitive view of the assasiantion is authentic...

when so many less significant pieces are obviously not authentic...

In your heart of hearts... with virtually every piece of evidence against Oswald questionable

we would be allowed to see a film of what actually happened?

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Z342... Altgens at 15 feet from JFK

BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight.

'nuf said...

cheers JT...

Josiah,

Cheers for your acceptional sparing efforts... but he aint gonna learn what he dont wanna know....

Not really sure why the discussion must center on z317 when z323 is the most obvious representation of this black-out...

and if deep in shadow, what is that white spot on his jacket collar where there should be nothing but shadow?

Does it not seem obvious that if we see the back of the head avulsed in 335/337... that this was present at 323?

At the bottom left of this black area is a portion of JFK's skull which has been blown out yet not in deep shadow...

Z337 makes the blow out to the back of the head obvious and also makes the xrays offered useless... his face and forehead where not affected yet the xrays show massive defects in these areas...

This was why Jackie's statement was removed... "from the front, nothing"

Professor Fetzer, Ph.D.'s, self-proclamations of "victory" are about as reliable as a Newt Gingrich stump speed (nor does the resemblance end there!). With respect to his ever-mountiing series of claims, eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. For weeks, he has been claiming that the ordinary version of the MPI video offers some confirmation for the claimed 317 "black patch." For example, among the specious self-congratulations Fetzer sends himself below is this: "And again about the black spot on frame 317, observing that it is present on 3rd generation copies of the film and in MPI's own motion picture, which means it should be on The 6th Floor slides, too." You can go to Robin Ungar's very excellent web site and check out frames from the MPI video by clicking on: http://www.jfkassass...5804&fullsize=1 Right around there you can also find other Zapruder frames from the MPI video. What does the back of JFK's head look like in Z 317? Exactly like what the back of JFK's head looks like in 312, 313, 314, 314, 315, 316... there's a big old shadow there that matches other shadows in the frames.

Confronted with the actual frames, Fetzer can now argue either (1) Robin Ungar has messed with the frames. OR (2) The frames don't show what they clearly show. OR (3) It doesn't matter becuase the version of 317 in LA trumps all this. Most likely, we will not hear this claim made again.

JT

Tom Purvis believes that Lee Harvey Oswald was a crack shot, the carcano was a good weapon and that he fired all the shots at JFK in Dallas. Without batting an eye, he also maintains that the Warren Commission "covered up." Since he agrees with all their ridiculous conclusions, it's very hard to figure out what he's talking about. They claim Oswald did it. Tom claims Oswald did it. So they are in agreement.

To top it all off, Tom is a film aterationist. If any of you can figure out how to reconcile all of these mystifying, contradictory sets of beliefs, please enlighten the rest of us.

Tom Purvis continues to inexplicably receive far more respect from nearly everyone on this forum than someone like Jim Fetzer does. Why do you scoff at Fetzer, let take seriously someone like Tom Purvis?

Hi Don...

"illuminating" subjects for me... ie the survey data mistakes and cover-up, deserves respect.... it is a very well done analysis that supposrts and makes sense of testimony at the scene.... but I do believe hew stops short BECAUSE of his conlcusions....

How he can quote Altgens yet not hear Brehm and Hargis and Hill describe skull being propelled back and to the left of JFK... along with all the other witnesses and the group that storms the GK.... Curry AND Decker sending men immediiately to the RR yard and overpass... etc..

And in our discussion over what Kleins sent customers who ordered c20-T750.. he readily admits that there is no evidence that any other customer ordering THAT item number rec'd the same type of rifle found in the TSBD... none.

I indeed find him cryptic, eccentric, and very interesting. While presenting the data and evidence from which he bases his conclusions...

The world accroding to FETZVISION and the wrath endured just to discuss anything with him is nauseating. IMO, HE'S one of the main reasons JFK CTs are not taken seriously on a grand scale... he'd rather fight you over Oswald in the Doorway... or Chaney motoring up much too soon... then discuss the evidence he offers and realize some of the holes in the logic, support and conclusions... I agree with much he concludes, like others, which makes his treatment all the more disturbing and deconstructive.

yet again.... until the world was PROVEN round... you were seen as crazy if you said so... Jim MAY be in great company - and maybe time will tell.

Cheers

DJ

Tom,

I have to respectively disagree with your conclusion of 3 shots - 3 hits. Just like asking why the shooter does not shoot as JFK approaches...

the shot that kills him IS as he approaches... from the right front. in addition to the low neck entry shot from the rear you speak of...

I just believe there were more shots fired, in sync, as directed by radio.. as many as nine in fact (3 shooters firing 3 times ea)

and have to thank you for illuminating so many things for me.

A few posts up I saw the same thing and quote Hill saying a shot arrives as he arrives at the limo, very interesting.

DJ