David Josephs

The question is: If Oswald didn't do it, why did whoever did it need a patsy?

Doesn't it seem odd that Oswald would go out of his way to ADMIT he was a "patsy" (someone easily fooled, swindled...etc) given who we know him to have been? (emphasis added by Thomas Graves)

As opposed to simply saying he had no idea what was going on and that he did not shoot anyone?

David,

What or who do we know Oswald to have been? Just curious...

--Thomas

Thomas,

I am referring to the general impression of Oswald being much more than the lowly clerk/book order packer compared to the other employees doing virtually the same thing. He gave the impression he was educated, strongly opinionated and involved in activities well beyond the TSBD employee exterior.

I've done my fair share of reading but am definitely NOT an Oswald expert by any means. I guess I am purely trying to understand why Oswald would immediately talk about being a patsy and the Russians (thank you Jim R.) if he actually did it.... Knowing he didn't do it he must have a reason for saying what he does...

maybe protecting himself (starting his defense as mentioned),

maybe doing exactly what he was told to do if he was caught,

Pretty risky to just blurt out you're a patsy on the belief that powerful forces are keeping the US & USSR apart and that he had seen it first hand... if he was that smart he must have know he was signing his death warrant yet at the same time he says virtually nothing in the interviews - or at least what we've read of the interviews - about this... ?

Finally, as I watch the clip of his press conference, he - to me at least - is incredulous about being charged with JFK's murder... it just seems he simply can't believe it had gone that far.

So I will somewhat retract the statement as speaking abit over my head on the subject... it just doesn;t seem in character given what I've learned about Oswald leading up to that moment.

and Jim R... thanks for your post - I was aware of most of that and believe you are on to something with McCloy yet also get the impression that a number of "players" within our government may have also been playing a little game with each other, as spooks do, so that we'd all be doing the "who dunit" shuffle years down the road... and wind up as we are, with multiple people either at or sharing the top of this pyramid and finding it very hard to pinpoint any one without it looking like it was everyone.... and no one at all... {sigh}

DJ

The question is: If Oswald didn't do it, why did whoever did it need a patsy?

Doesn't it seem odd that Oswald would go out of his way to ADMIT he was a "patsy" (someone easily fooled, swindled...etc)given who we know him to have been?

As opposed to simply saying he had no idea what was going on and that he did not shoot anyone?

–noun, plural -sies. Slang .

1. a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker.

2. a person upon whom the blame for something falls; scapegoat; fall guy.

3. a person who is the object of a joke, ridicule, or the like.

If Oswald DID do it HE'D need the patsy... or he'd be proud of the fact and want the notoriety like other assassins of our time

If Oswald DID do it.. announcing himself a patsy begs the question, "for who?" and deflects some of the blame immediately - reasonable doubt - that at least required investigation.

If OSWALD DID do it... and he had no way of influencing the evidence... all the evidence would ultimately point to him... not to example after example of evidence tampering, destruction, creation, etc...

We absolutely must assume that if Oswald DID NOT DO IT, those who organized and implemented it had to be as close to 100% confident they would not be identified or investigated in any realistic timeframe

Option 1 - Kill Oswald 11/22/63 and tell the story as it needs to be told with supporting evidence.

Option 2 - Kill Oswald ASAP and tell the story as it needs to be told

Option 3 - No option #3... the patsy must die, because HE DID NOT DO IT.

If he actually did it there's no need for a patsy... and the tautology continues round and round.

Duncan, you keep going back to the word NEED.

A scenario in which those that planned it/did it would NOT need a patsy...

"Unknown assailants shoot the president and escape"

if the motivation behind JFK's death had to do with fighting the spread of communism and the perception JFK was losing that fight... how could we hold our heads up as a leading nation if we could not even find out who killed the president? if we would not show the world how we'd uncover every rock and investigate every lead to find the killer(s).

In the initial weeks, finding the killer, arresting him and convicting him was paramount for the charade but not really the plan... Oswald, the patsy had to die. All "official" evidence and documentation supports this conclusion. History is made neat and easy to digest.

Asking why "they" needed a patsy is like asking a magician why he needed to misdirect your sight while making his trick work... because the trick does not work any other way.

I am speculating here - I believe "The Trick" would not have worked without someone to focus the attention upon. Who "They" are, as you've said... will be pure speculation for quite some time imo....

The crucial word in the question is "NEED"

Why would unknown assassins who have no intention of getting caught, NEED to frame anyone at all?

A patsy was required... and a dead patsy at that.... so there would be no further investigation.

So that those that did the deed and more importantly those who orchestrated it, would never be uncovered.

Like in Body Heat when Turner supposedly dies in the explosion at the end... if she is dead AND Hurt is the patsy... the case ends and no one goes looking for the pretty women lying on the beach.

The perpetrators NEEDED the greatest amount of time before anyone would get suspicious. A dead, convicted patsy accomplishes this....

But he was not dead

so the investigation needed to start and end with Oswald (ala Katzenbach's letter)

EVERYTHING that was skewed, distorted, falsified, hidden, destroyed, etc... was to focus the guilt on Oswald.

If he had been killed prior to capture it would have taken much more time for the likes of Lane and others to not only begin digging... but to get ANY answers.

Once Ruby kills Oswald, anyone with a brain has to be suspicious.

Kind of like the patsies of Watergate who, imo, to this day have hidden the real reasons behind the breakin...

70+% of the world may still think there was a conspiracy... but the official line is still that Oswald did it...

and Osama (or Saddam depending on who you ask) was behind 911... you think Bush and Cheney were worried about being caught???

my .02

DJ

Their ultimate goal is not to win an internet debate, but to prevent the laws of the land from being implimented.

So they win.

BK

Interesting statement BK...

given the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, etc... when was the last piece of significant legislation that

actually GIVES more rights to the people - the last time significant laws were amended or upheld to GIVE or GUARANTEE individual freedoms in the "land of the free, home of the brave"...?

just sayin'. preventing laws from being implemented represents unbelievable power

when the LNers realize their position reinforces this power and ultimately TAKES from their own freedoms, maybe they'll get it.

America is indeed great - when you are free to defend to the death your right to be lied to by the government.. and say "thank you sir", in the process.

DJ

I want Joan Crawford to clean my house, I have 100s of wire hangers

that's classic Dean... funny stuff.

Michael...

because unlike THEM we feel it only right to discuss the evidence and data to support their positions, not just dismiss them. We hold true to a sense of logic... that when it talks, walks and dumps like a duck and scores of people testify it's a duck, and we have faked photos of the duck driving a car - we can come to conclusions and can test the evidence against it.

Unless it has to do with a photograph, Craig has nothing to offer, nothing to say, nothing to prove but to repeat his religious mantra that is the WCR. One can't discuss anything that challenges a religious zealot for his truth is absolute without need for proof or logic. It is because it is....

Lee nailed it... the vast majority of his posts are simply to ask others to prove again what has already been proven... or to fling insults. and when he does actually present data, he holds to no conclusions as a result... there's a fold in the jacket but the fact the bullet holes all line up is of no consequence, has no bearing on his conclusion... he only wanted to prove the size of his fold... just a little fold envy I guess....

At best he is a poster child for the WCR loyalists...

At some point even they have to get fed up with his inability to hold a civilized conversation, or discuss a topic and provide evidentary back-up.

It's embarassing to all sides and adds nothing to understanding or critical thought.

Once again CL, GREAT job!

CL: Silly. Speculation.

JD: Can you please be specific about the "silly speculation" ?

We have been through all this Craig; its just LN boilerplate on your side because you don't want to admit you knew nothing about it before you proclaimed the BYP to be genuine. And now you want to say its silly for CYA purposes.

Breaking two postal codes right in the regs is not "silly".

Can you show us that this is not something that happened on a regular basis or are you just speculating???

Giving a weapon to a guy who's name is different than on the merchandise is not silly.

Can you show us that this is not something that happened on a regular basis or are you just speculating???

Not one employee recalling the transaction of giving a commie a rifle from Klein's is not silly. Especially at the height of the Cold War. Even though Hidell would have had to prove he was Oswald. Something that likely would have gone up to the supervisory level. And the name and face of Oswald would have been recalled like a church bell peeling to that supervisor on 11/22/63. (Ever hear of how Sylvia Odio responded on that day?)

See..more jimmy speculation. You just can't help yourself

What makes it worse is this: they did report him getting subversive magazines. Because they were FBI informants and that was their job. But no one recalled the long bulky package from Klein's, one of the biggest shippers of weapons in America? Yeah, sure.

Can you show us that this is not something that happened on a regular basis or are you just speculating???

Now, that is just on the pick up side. There are about nine of these on the order side. But you ignore them all for political reasons. You don't live in the the world of evidence and logic. To any objective person, the weight of this shows that Oswald never picked up or ordered that rifle. And this is backed up by Marina's first SS interview.

There is no "weight" Its just silly speculation you want to try and turn into fact. You do it all the time, just like you did upthread.

But keep it up with your Tea Party brethren. Maybe you will fulfill your ambition and help bring us a president worse than W.

LOL! You suck at this jimmy. Worse than the poor loser varnell....

Here he goes again ladies and gentlemen... the Craig Lameson, "I have nothing to back my side of the story so please find some for me" posts...

If you do not believe the evidence presented, YOU need to refute it, not make us do it for you.

Every question you ask goes to prove YOUR point... so go prove it.

Prove that all that "speculation" is just that... or can't you?

"Can you show us that this is not something that happened on a regular basis or are you just speculating???"

Do a little damn research of your own and prove Jim wrong

It is not up to Jim or anyone to prove the evidence presented represents a normal occurance or an exception to the rule... that would be YOUR job here Craig... something you are woefully ill-prepared to even attempt.

So keep on "speculating" without providing a bit of support, research or evidence ...

How about just picking ONE thing to prove... like finding out how many deliveries there were in 1963 to post offices boxes without the addressee being listed on the application allowing for deliver in the first place...

Surely someone with your time and resources can do a simple thing like that... at least you could then PROVE the Post Office regularly delivers mail against its own regulations.... or NOT. and then admit it when you discover you're wrong as usual.

Have at it dude... or do you have nothing but insults yet again without a shred of effort to defend your pathetic excuse for comments on this forum.

Keep up that GREAT work

Okay, so they're fake, and they were faked in order to implicate Oswald with the weapons. Then what?

What's with the black clothes, clothes that are not among the clothes Oswald had at the time of the assassination? What happened to them?

Did Oswald give them to the homeless in New Orleans?

And what's with the magazines? The Worker and the Militant?

Are there any articles of interest in either of those magazines? Anything about Cuba? Has anybody checked?

The one thing the weapons and the magazines have in common is they passed through the PO box portal.

What else went through there besides the checks from Leslie Welding and the letters to the USNavy, State Dept and Russian embassy?

When did Oswald use the PO box if he worked six days a week and the PO was closed on Sundays?

Did Marina empty the PO box for him? Did Someone else pick up his mail and the weapons?

So many questions, so little time.

BK

If they are fake then everything under Oswald's chin is not his... the black clothes, the papers, everything other than his face was not his to begin with... right?

and I have to agree with Jim... the PO Box has ZERO credibility to have been the manner in which Oswald received these weapons.

From "The Great Carcano Swindle" by Bill MacDowall

12.

CLAIM: The Post Office in Dallas to which Oswald had the rifle mailed was kept both under his name and that of A. Hidell.

INVESTIGATION: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an A. Hidell, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas.

As with Harry D. Holmes revelations to the New York Times, the FBI could not have made this determination unless they had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form. The only conclusion it is possible to draw from this information is that Part 3 of Oswald's application still existed after John F. Kennedy was assassinated and that Harry D. Holmes and the FBI knew as much. Harry Holmes' story that Postal Regulations required Part 3 of the form to be destroyed when the box is closed was an act of perjury that attempted to hide the fact that an important piece of evidence had been destroyed sometime after the assassination.

Then what???

With Oswlad dead, as he was supposed to be, the photo(s) simply add to the mountain of bogus evidence against him proclaiming a Castro loving Commie killed the president and Tippit. The fact that the clothes are gone and had never been his, along with the Jacket that was found is again, more evidence that it was a set-up.

Yea, it was a Set Up all right, but they didn't go with the cover story that it was a Commie Conspiracy and switched to the Lone Nut Scenario, so then what?

BK

Purely to connect the rifle and pistol to the man... they conveniently ignored the newspapers and focused on the "craziness" of posing with the rifle that would kill the president and the pistol that killed a police officer... spin - what an awful man... in fact, most reproductions don't even make it apparent which magazines those even were...

why would Life choose that photo for the cover.... imagery, pure and simple...

Kind of like Powell telling the UN about the ficticious yellow cake... or spinning that Saddam was behind 911...

in the short term, the court of public opinion was directly influenced by the lie...

in the longer term, it's too late.

at least that's what I think...

DJ

More specifically though, the rifle is not even the same one found... the shoulder strap harness ring is in the wrong place.

Okay, so they're fake, and they were faked in order to implicate Oswald with the weapons. Then what?

What's with the black clothes, clothes that are not among the clothes Oswald had at the time of the assassination? What happened to them?

Did Oswald give them to the homeless in New Orleans?

And what's with the magazines? The Worker and the Militant?

Are there any articles of interest in either of those magazines? Anything about Cuba? Has anybody checked?

The one thing the weapons and the magazines have in common is they passed through the PO box portal.

What else went through there besides the checks from Leslie Welding and the letters to the USNavy, State Dept and Russian embassy?

When did Oswald use the PO box if he worked six days a week and the PO was closed on Sundays?

Did Marina empty the PO box for him? Did Someone else pick up his mail and the weapons?

So many questions, so little time.

BK

If they are fake then everything under Oswald's chin is not his... the black clothes, the papers, everything other than his face was not his to begin with... right?

and I have to agree with Jim... the PO Box has ZERO credibility to have been the manner in which Oswald received these weapons.

From "The Great Carcano Swindle" by Bill MacDowall

12.

CLAIM: The Post Office in Dallas to which Oswald had the rifle mailed was kept both under his name and that of A. Hidell.

INVESTIGATION: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an A. Hidell, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas.

As with Harry D. Holmes revelations to the New York Times, the FBI could not have made this determination unless they had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form. The only conclusion it is possible to draw from this information is that Part 3 of Oswald's application still existed after John F. Kennedy was assassinated and that Harry D. Holmes and the FBI knew as much. Harry Holmes' story that Postal Regulations required Part 3 of the form to be destroyed when the box is closed was an act of perjury that attempted to hide the fact that an important piece of evidence had been destroyed sometime after the assassination.

Then what???

With Oswlad dead, as he was supposed to be, the photo(s) simply add to the mountain of bogus evidence against him proclaiming a Castro loving Commie killed the president and Tippit. The fact that the clothes are gone and had never been his, along with the Jacket that was found is again, more evidence that it was a set-up.

A most excellent post and read.... a bit more food for thought..

and "they" said roack and roll would corrupt our youth.... guess "they" got it right

http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html

Pink Floyd's Animals.... Pigs, Dogs and Sheep

Pigs on the Wing (Part One) (Waters) 1:24

If you didn't care what happened to me,

And I didn't care for you,

We would zig zag our way through the boredom and pain

Occasionally glancing up through the rain.

Wondering which of the buggars to blame

And watching for pigs on the wing.

Dogs (Waters, Gilmour) 17:06

You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need.

You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street,

You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed.

And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight,

You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking.

And after a while, you can work on points for style.

Like the club tie, and the firm handshake,

A certain look in the eye and an easy smile.

You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to,

So that when they turn their backs on you,

You'll get the chance to put the knife in.

You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder.

You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you

get older.

And in the end you'll pack up and fly down south,

Hide your head in the sand,

Just another sad old man,

All alone and dying of cancer.

And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown.

And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone.

And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw

around.

So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone,

Dragged down by the stone.

I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused.

Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used.

Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise.

If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this

maze?

Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending

That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend.

And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner

And everything's done under the sun,

And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer.

Who was born in a house full of pain.

Who was trained not to spit in the fan.

Who was told what to do by the man.

Who was broken by trained personnel.

Who was fitted with collar and chain.

Who was given a pat on the back.

Who was breaking away from the pack.

Who was only a stranger at home.

Who was ground down in the end.

Who was found dead on the phone.

Who was dragged down by the stone.

Pigs (Three Different Ones) (Waters) 11:26

Big man, pig man, ha ha charade you are.

You well heeled big wheel, ha ha charade you are.

And when your hand is on your heart,

You're nearly a good laugh,

Almost a joker,

With your head down in the pig bin,

Saying "Keep on digging."

Pig stain on your fat chin.

What do you hope to find.

When you're down in the pig mine.

You're nearly a laugh,

You're nearly a laugh

But you're really a cry.

Bus stop rat bag, ha ha charade you are.

You xxxxed up old hag, ha ha charade you are.

You radiate cold shafts of broken glass.

You're nearly a good laugh,

Almost worth a quick grin.

You like the feel of steel,

You're hot stuff with a hatpin,

And good fun with a hand gun.

You're nearly a laugh,

You're nearly a laugh

But you're really a cry.

Hey you, Whitehouse,

Ha ha charade you are.

You house proud town mouse,

Ha ha charade you are

You're trying to keep our feelings off the street.

You're nearly a real treat,

All tight lips and cold feet

And do you feel abused?

.....! .....! .....! .....!

You gotta stem the evil tide,

And keep it all on the inside.

Mary you're nearly a treat,

Mary you're nearly a treat

But you're really a cry.

Sheep (Waters) 10:19

Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away;

Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air.

You better watch out,

There may be dogs about

I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen

Things are not what they seem.

What do you get for pretending the danger's not real.

Meek and obedient you follow the leader

Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.

What a surprise!

A look of terminal shock in your eyes.

Now things are really what they seem.

No, this is no bad dream.

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want

He makes me down to lie

Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.

With bright knives He releaseth my soul.

He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.

He converteth me to lamb cutlets,

For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.

When cometh the day we lowly ones,

Through quiet reflection, and great dedication

Master the art of karate,

Lo, we shall rise up,

And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.

Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream.

Wave upon wave of demented avengers

March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.

Have you heard the news?

The dogs are dead!

You better stay home

And do as you're told.

Get out of the road if you want to grow old.

Pigs on the Wing (Part Two) (Waters) 1:27

You know that I care what happens to you,

And I know that you care for me.

So I don't feel alone,

Or the weight of the stone,

Now that I've found somewhere safe

To bury my bone.

And any fool knows a dog needs a home,

A shelter from pigs on the wing.

I can understand how echoes and such may cause different sounds to be heard in different places yet Bowers was in a spot that would have had a direct line of sound from the picket fence and possibly much less echo than those standing in the plaza surrounded by buildings..

I've always felt his description of the loudest sounds was most accurate and has the greatest amount of corroborating testimony.

Surprised he is not mentioned in the above rundown of witnesses

DJ

Mark Lane: Mr Bowers, how many shots did you hear?

Lee Bowers: There were three shots and these were spaced with one shot, then a pause and then two shots in very close order, such as perhaps (knocking on table) knock ..... knock-knock. Almost on top of each other, while there was some pause between the first and the second shots.

Lane: Did you tell that to the Dallas Police?

Bowers: Yes, I told this to the police and then also told it to the FBI, and also I had a discussion two or three days later with them concerning this, and they made no comment other than the fact that when stated that I felt like the third and the second and third shot could not have been fired from the same rifle, they reminded me that I was not an expert. And I had to agree (Bowers smiles sourly).

It's very easy to understand Terminal DiEugenio Disease:

If any evidence points to Lee H. Oswald, that evidence must be thrown straight in the garbage can (no matter how much of it there is). And it doesn't matter how many people you have to call liars in order to keep Saint Ozzie's skirts clean and starched -- Jimbo's always ready and eager to do it.

Simple questions DVP... How does Oswald know to be at the window at 12:30.

When does Oswald assemble the rifle and not get a single fingerprint on it

When does Oswald build the Sniper's Lair and only get his fingerprints on 1-2 boxes

When does Williams leave the 6th floor

When does Dougherty leave the 6th floor

How many people need to see Oswald between 12:15-12:25 for you to believe them

Why does Baker's affidavit specifically say "on the stairs between the 3rd and 4th floors" as opposed to "in the 2nd floor lunchroom"

Who were the men seen leaving the back of the TSBD

How do 57+ witnesses get it wrong when they say shots were fired from behind the fence on the Knoll

Sorry David but there is no actual evidence that Oswald was at that window at 12:30, owned the rifle, knew when the limo would pass the TSBD, had bought any ammo for that rifle, had ever fired that rifle.

But there is quite a bit of evidence that shows if he were the assassin his actions and whereabouts are not consistent with being in any kind of position to carry out his desire of killing JFK. And all this evidence exists within the WCR...

A person needs Motive AND Opportunity... Oswald had neither

Read the witness statements from those who were there.

He's talking to you Craig... maybe if you actually read the tome you keep defending

you'd realize how ridiculous you sound.

then again, you wouldn't want the facts and the data to get in the way of your opinions.

btw, your folded rug = jacket fold work is priceless.

and then to post that you don't come to any conclusions regarding the shot to the back as a result of all that groundbreaking work... is brilliant.

Keep up the great work

I agree that David has hit upon something.

If the Trade Mart was scheduled earlier then Oswald's activities from about 11:55 on make absolutely no sense.

As Bob Tanenbaum once said as he reviewed the WC volumes, the amount of exculpatory evidence left out of the report by the Commission was "an abomination."

This thing is so obvious, yet "they" still march on.

Are you saying Jim , that the Trade Mart Speech was scheduled at a much earlier time that we were led to believe?

If so, this is very important information that has been withheld from us.

So much exculpatory evidence withheld from the public.

"Abomonation" is an understatement.

This was TREASON.

Not sure that is what Jim was saying...

The Luncheon was to start at 12. (see the invitation on the first page of thread)

The speech at 1pm.

AF-1 was to arrive at 11:30 and arrive at the Trade Mart approx 45 min later when JFK was to have a quick lunch and then give his speech.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

The Motorcade Route

On November 8, when Lawson was briefed on the itinerary for the trip to Dallas, he was told that 45 minutes had been allotted for a motorcade procession from Love Field to the luncheon site. Lawson was not specifically instructed to select the parade route, but he understood that this was one of his functions. Even before the Trade Mart had been definitely selected, Lawson and Sorrels began to consider the best motorcade route from Love Field to the Trade Mart. On November 14, Lawson and Sorrels attended a meeting at Love Field and on their return to Dallas drove over the route which Sorrels believed best suited for the proposed motorcade. This route, eventually selected for the motorcade from the airport to the Trade Mart, measured 10 miles and could be driven easily within the allotted 45 minutes. From Love Field the route passed through a portion of suburban Dallas, through the downtown area along Main Street and then to the Trade Mart via Stemmons Freeway. For the President's return to Love Field following the luncheon, the agents selected the most direct route, which was approximately 4 miles.

After the selection of the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, Lawson and Sorrels met with Dallas Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry, Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor, Deputy Chief N. T. Fisher, and several other command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. The route was further reviewed by Lawson and Sorrels with Assistant Chief Batchelor and members of the local host committee on November 15. The police officials agreed that the route recommended by Sorrels was the proper one and did not express a belief that any other route might be better. On November 18, Sorrels and Lawson drove over the selected route with Batchelor and other police officers, verifying that it could be traversed within 45 minutes. Representatives of the local host committee and the White House staff were advised by the Secret Service of the actual route on the afternoon of November 18.

But the plane did not land at 11:30 nor did JFK leave Love field at 11:30 but at 11:55 pushing the parade route timing out yet leaving those at the Luncheon and waiting for the speech still on time.

If Oswald the assassin was doing his due diligence he'd know about the 11:30 time and the 45 min travel time and have to be at the Sninper's Nest by 12 the latest. It's 5-8 minutes from Dealey to the Trade Mart.

The radio, according to Mrs Reid, stated that the motorcade was 5 mins late. Does Oswald know this slight time adjustment is incorrect and that the limo would not pass by until 12:30 instead of 12:10-12:15... obviously not as he is seen having lunch until 12:15 or as late as 12:25 down on the 2nd floor.

Only those "in the know" would be on the 6th floor at 12:15, rifle ready, windows open, books stacked... right about the time Williams is eating lunch and Dougherty is wandering around.

So it is not so much that the Luncheon was scheduled earlier as much as the lack of knowledge about how late the limo would be passing by the window he is accused of being in for no real reason, at 12:30 instead of 12:10.... and the fact that WCR testimony makes it virtually impossible for him to either know this info or be at that window with enough time to do what he is accused of...

Be interesting to research the extent of the Luncheon's "marketing"...

Also be interesting to get the DPD transcripts for 11am-12:30.

When and where did the crowds start assembling?

I am going thru the FBI statements and those that say, seem to put their deciding to go out front to watch the parade at 12:15-12:25.

example: Mrs. Dragoo

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office located on

the second floor of tha Texas School Book Depository Bldg .

and walked to the front entranco of the building about

12:20 PM, to watch the Presidential Motorcade which was to

pass along Elm Street in front of the building . I was with

Mrs . Bonnie Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt . 117, Dallas, Texas,

Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, 3325 South Tyler St ., Dallas, Texas, Mrs .

Virgie R . Baker, 36002 Live Oak, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Judy

Johnson, 915 Sunnyside St ., Dallas, Texas, all employees of the

Texas School Book Depository.

Wonder what promtped this mass exodus right about 12:15??

Good to see you've honed that ability to stroke yourself into an art form.

Guess with the stroking and typing, there are no hands left to slap your own back.

Got a few people doing that for you here do ya...? I'll keep reading up on all your support.

You da man CL... an insightful, articulate, photographic genius.

No 9/11 thoughts...? well thank god for small favors.

Cover up artists like the Discovery Channel and the History Channel with their convoluted logic presented in documentary form.

Can't tell you how many times I've heard, "but I saw it on Disc Ch..., why would they lie?"

"I recall that shortly after the car in which the

President was riding passed the Texas School Book Depository

building I heard shots being fired from a point which ,I

thought was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct

on Elm Street. -O.V. Campbell VP TSBD standing out front with...

Roy Truly... who repeatedly said the he did not feel as if the shots came from the TSBD but to the WEST by the RR tracks.

Like to see one Disc Ch documentary that simply reads the statements of the witnesses who place the shots on the GK... can ANYONE say "reasonable doubt" ??

Personally I actually keep in mind the time from about quarter to 12 till he had survived and was safely (for the moment) in custody (that in itself, imo was quite a feat.). Depending on the level of any fore knowledge he could have begun piecing things together say as early as conversations overheard on the bus, radio during the taxi ride, Landladys TV, etc. His thoughts probably then came to getting to a place where he could to some extent be assured of witnesses and having an advantage of eyes well adjusted to the dark, iow, see them coming and I think getting up close and personal with a number of cops could be seen as a way of ensuring no stray fire. He got a hell of a hiding later, but he was alive.

edit:typo

Interesting John,

Then why not just stay on the bus (if he was ever really there to begin with)

or go directly to the theater (why the gun and change of clothes) - he wasn't going to shoot back if the desire was to be "protected" by being around so many people and police.

and if he was supposed to be killed "escaping" when and where was THAT supposed to happen?

Tippit was not a murderer although I guess he could have been put into a position where he'd have to be. He definitely was not where he was expected to be

And how could Oswald have known where Tippit would be in any case... if he was the LNer he is claimed to be

all coincidences?

His mouth moves

His fingers type

and yet again nothing comes out.

You have not posted anything beyond your ridiculous rant about a 3+" fold that has no implications or conclusions to be drawn from it... you don't present information with any relevence, your posts are nothing but attacks on what you can't possibly understand nor have any data to refute. You rely on DVP and Bugliosi to make/defend your worthless points and never take a position on anything.

and this is fun for you???

Whatever CL... thanks for the continued representation of nothing and illustrating

the overriding mentality of those who believe, as truth, what they're told to believe,

without need for questions or conscience.

We who actually do want to learn, discuss, debate and enjoy this forum salute you

poster child for the misanthropic, misguided and misinformed

bet you could tell us exactly how all that nano-thermite wound up in all that dust, too.

Good night and good luck

I think this is turning into a very interesting topic David, Very thought provoking. I'm glad you've keep pushing the issue. It may very well lead to a significant perceptual change that LNrs or fence sitters cannot ignore nor explain except as a remarkably set (big) of coincidences squeezed into a tiny window of opportunity that really begs an occams razor approach that points to a conspiracy. Personally, I don't think Oswald is necessary to be considered the shooter. The same basic premise could apply to any.

Anyway having done this risky deed he shoots a copper and goes to the movies. I'dve at least tried to do a runner if I was such a dimwit as to leave a traceable rifle behind. I got a gun, There are ways to enforce travel if you can't drive. I wonder at what point Oswald got wind of being hunted..

For me John - and I know you refer to when between 12:30 and his arrest - but for me this reaction to his being told he was indeed charged with killing the president is THE defining moment when he realizes he's screwed.

since I don't believe Oswald killed Tippit, I don't believe he ever got wind of his being hunted. The Oswald that is arrested at the Texas Theater begins to figure it out slightly - but then why walk down a main street in broad daylight if you think they're after you... and then confine yourself in a building when he had ample opportunity to just disappear - no one had any idea where he was at 1:00 except maybe those who were supposedly going to help him (or promised to help him) fly off into the sunset. "Just doing my duty as I was ordered to as a US marine" might say Oswald...

just speculation here... and thanks for checking back and your encouragement.

We still see that no LNer has addressed these timing difficulties and/or the evidence in support of them

and given the Nix and Muchmore films were much less likely to have been altered than Zapruder, a complete stop of the limo, is imo not realistic. I seem to remember reading though that Greer was picked exactly BECAUSE he had a tendency to hit the brakes when presented with an unexpected stimulus... soryy I can't cite it, maybe someone else can.

David,

The question about the blood amount (Duncan's thread) coming from JFK's throat is directed at Greer/Kellerman's reactions.

Both of them look back toward JFK long before 313.

Did neither see it because of JFK's arms.?

Would there be blood on JFK's hands, reaching for his throat?

The limo slows down.

Greer looks back a second time before 313, does he still not see any blood?

chris

Okay Chris, I get you.

They both do indeed look back at JFK as well as JC, who more than likely did have quite a bit of blood spreading on his shirt and was neither attended to or protected in any manner by these 2 men.

This is z261... that shirt still looks incredibly white... not sure what to conclude

Or a coherent, rational assassin desiring a place in history, for that matter Bill.

Nothing about what Oswald did or where he was from 11:55-12:30 is in support of his being the assassin

while all the evidence is designed/manufactured and placed to make it LOOK like he was.

"Lone" Nut" - neither could be farther from the truth

Hey Craig!

Must you always be so pissed at the entire world that everything you write has to be so caustic?

Can't imagine ANYONE taking anything you say seriously or you ever getting into a normal discussion with members of this forum...

Your rights, my rights, on this forum not withstanding.... how about a little people-skills training... you remove the enjoyment of open discussion with attack after attack and nothing to contribute... Must you chime in on every thread with your "I haven't had any in 30 years" attitude? Even Oscar Myer packages their baloney to look appealing.

Great job dude

Hey Josephs..STFU....

Don't like what I write...DON'T READ IT! Simple enough, even for you.

Wow... capitals AND exclamation points... must have hit a nerve - has it really been 30 years?

If and when you ever write something worth reading, I'll take you up on your offer to ignore it

As long as you continue to abuse, insult and annoy - and the mods don't want to stop you - I'll keep having my fun with ya.

...you just ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know.

David...

How is that you know that the shooters were communist -

the fact they worked together and in unison for a greater cause???

It should have read:

"Interesting how the assassination is timed so that a 'communist' can shoot the president on everybody's lunch hour..."

Where I wanted to go with this is that the whitewash story was that Every Good American vacated the sixth floor at lunch to go see the president drive by, giving a wily "commie" his opportunity to strike.

I get you David.... just a little tongue in cheek on my part.

One of the stranger parts of this timeline is Jarman and Norman deciding at like, 12:25 to go back into the building and up to the 5th floor. The timing of their being where they needed to be at exactly the right time is a bit eerie too.

DJ

Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. BALL - With who?

Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.

Mr. BALL - You say Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember him going with you?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL - What about Billy Lovelady?

Mr. JARMAN - I didn't go out with them. They came out later.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Where was he?

Mr. JARMAN - Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?

Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.

Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?

Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

….

Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?

Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?

Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?

Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL - Which elevator?

Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.

Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN - Right

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?

Mr. JARMAN - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.

Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.

Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.

Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window? (Bronson film glimpse of SE 5th floor windows)

Mr. JARMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL - Who joined you?

Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL - And where did he stand or sit?

Mr. JARMAN - He took the window next to Harold Norman.

1998 article by Dale Myers:

Oswald’s Mail-Order Revolver Purchase: Critical Allegations Prove False

DVP posted:

Would any amount of coercion be enough to get you to identify a man as a murderer whom you knew was really innocent?

Shouldn't conspiracy theorists occasionally ask themselves the above question (as it relates to the several witnesses who positively IDed Lee Oswald as the murderer of JFK and/or J.D. Tippit)?

I wonder then Mr Pein, whether LNers like yourself shouldn't occasstionally ask themselves how not several witnesses, nor a few or a handful... but many, many, many witnesses (including those closest to the scene, riding in the lead car, riding in the limo, standing beside the limo, on a motorcycle right behind the limo, in the SS follow-up car, standing in front of the TSBD, standing across from the TSBD, standing on the overpass, sitting in a little building overlooking the RR yard, etc...) who all POSITIVELY place shots coming from behind the picket fence, what type of coercion was put on them to DENY identifying the location of the gunfire OTHER than the TSBD 6th floor SE window...

Coerced to change their minds and testimony about the number of shots and their direction.

Brennan never ID'd Oswald... no amount of coercion, circumstance or fear could and get him to finger the wrong man, while no amount of conscious could keep him from searching out the spotlight.

I am willing to hold up the list of witnesses who heard/saw a shot from the GK against the tiny number who ID Oswald as committing any crime. At least enough to create reasonable doubt... a concept that never seems to enter the conversation.

and as long as there is significant reasonable doubt, LHO is innocent until proven guilty, at least in the legal system that was in place at the time