David Josephs

and the crowd goes wild.....

then I'll just stay in bold - and I will edit out a lot of the repeat text for space....

Back in burgandy...

I've only begun to look into the information on the thread and your post in particular Cliff...

I'll start with this and get your reactions... for as I say below, I agree with much of what

you present and feel that Harriman was a key player in bridging Management to Operations

without disclosing exactly who "management" was/is.

I'll argue going forward that the inter-locking Harriman/Rockefeller dynasties were/are

"the Management."

DJ: In 1963, Harriman was an important figure in negotiating the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty between the US and the USSR.

I have a hard time believing he does this on his own... pushing this Treaty sounds much more in line with Golitsyn's Perestroika declarations regarding LT Soviet strategy, I venture to say that anything that might jeapardize his relationship wioth the Soviets, or the US>USSR relationship was not in his best interest... but Management?

Sounds more like following orders than creating them...

CV:

McGeorge Bundy didn't take orders from military officers, either.

… I must respectfully disagree, David. Neither W. Averell Harriman nor McGeorge Bundy served in the military.

DJ:

That’s a pretty broad statement about Bundy, Cliff. the "either" you refer to was the Mafia,

and that makes sense, but Bundy and the Joint Chiefs had to be working together on many levels...

why again not here?

Let's take a look at a couple of items, one to gauge where Bundy was coming from,

and one to illustrate the position of the US military in the soon-to-be hot War in 'Nam.

This is from Peter Dale Scott:

http://www.history-matters.com/pds/DP3_Chapter5.htm#_ftn41

(quote on)

As early as January 4, 1963, Bundy proposed to President Kennedy that the possibility of

communicating with Castro be explored. (Memorandum, Bundy to the President, 1/4/63).

Bundy's memorandum on "Cuba Alternatives" of April 23 [sic, i.e. April 21], 1963, also listed

the "gradual development of some form of accommodation with Castro" among policy alternatives.

(Bundy memorandum, 4/21/63) At a meeting on June 3, 1963, the Special Group agreed it would

be a "useful endeavour" to explore "various possibilities of establishing channels of communication

to Castro." (Memorandum of Special Group meeting, 6/6/63).

(quote off)

If one of the major beefs the US military had with Kennedy was his alleged weakness

in the Cold War -- and if McGeorge Bundy's loyalties were with the US military above

all else -- how was it that Bundy was proposing accommodation with Castro?

DJ: As the Old saying goes... keep your friends close and your enemies closer. It is no surprise that he would suggest that type of

detente with Cuba, all the while the Military, CIA, et al. are planning adn implementing raids, sabotage, etc... AGAINST Cuba.

Isn't there an inherent contradiction in that construction?

DJ: Over time Cliff, I have come to learn, esp[ecially in this area of study, that inherent contradictions is one of the cornerstones of deniability.

Espionnage is full of contradiction at the operational level and for good reason.

Why does Ms. Rice say they had never ever conceived of planes flying into buildings... because that was the story being sold at the time.

And what to we make of the following Richard Starnes dispatch? (emphasis added):

(quote on)

The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3

'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam

SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam

is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and

unrestrained thirst for power......

{edit}[/b]

(quote off)

I don't think this jibes with an "all-powerful" US military calling the shots. The

above reference to "that man...wearing a colonel's uniform" undoubtedly referred

to Col. Lucien Conein, a notorious CIA operator who happened to be in the military.

I think these two citations illustrate the factional nature of the US power elite

in 1963, and argues against the notion of monolithic military control.

DJ: From Spartacus: When the Second World War broke out in 1939 Conein returned to France and joined the French Army. After the German invasion in 1940 Conein returned to the United States. He now joined the U.S. Army but because of his knowledge of France he was transferred to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS).

The revolving door between CIA and the Military never ends... the CIA may be able to alot done yet with Military assisstance (ala Prouty's experiences) you have the difference between Cuba and Vietnam. One question Cliff... Which do you have more faith in... the Military being sidetracked by the CIA in any of its endeavours or the CIA being sidetracked by the Military... who's in control?

DJ:

Do we know who else was in the WH Sitroom that might have passed him this

information to convey to AF1 and the Cabinet Plane?

Good question. We do know that it was Harriman who let the Soviets off the hook mere

hours after the assassination. And Pentagon aide Col. William Corson related the view of

at least one Kennedy insider that McGeorge Bundy was more loyal to his Skull & Bones

brother Harriman than to JFK.

I doubt that the entire administration and the Joint Chiefs just took his word for it.... and loyalty does not equate to control or Management.

I do not take anything away from the influence Harriman could exert... but pulling the strings? I'd need more evidence of that.

I can see that left to the military alone, blaming the Soviets and pushing for a BIG war

might have been the tact… the less world-devastating local “Wars” remain profitable and

lets everyone keep playing the Cold War game while still engaging in a Hot ones.

According to this site Bundy did serve…

I stand corrected.

McGeorge Bundy http://www.answers.com/topic/mcgeorge-bundy

Deemed unfit for military service because of nearsightedness, he memorized the eye

chart in order to join the army as a private and rose to become a captain by the end

of World War II. {I’d say he was a very dedicated military man who understood the

chain of command, and how to circumvent it ….)

I'd argue that, like millions of Americans who served in WW2, Bundy returned to

civilian life and resumed his primary loyalties to his family and his peers.

and I continue to argue that... once in the military, always in the military. The CIA did not tell Humes and Bowsell to lie and then keep their mouths shut

under order of court-martial... A military plane, military hospital, military personnel with the Secret Service along for every step of the way... imo.

C: Glad you asked! I was hoping someone would follow through on this!

Max Holland's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright and diplomat

W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the assassination, especially in

light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S.

ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and

offers the president the unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of

them believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.

By 1965 the die was cast in Vietnam and Harriman had everything he wanted: a de-militarized

Laos and a heavily militarized Vietnam. Johnson wasn't through with Harriman, of course, as

the blue-blood was brought back for the Paris peace negotiations in '68.

{edit out}

Angleton was a real piece of work. Harriman was an untouchable. As a protege of

the Rockefellers, Kissinger was also an untouchable.

{edit out}

A highly sanitized bio of the man. Left out the parts wherein Harriman helped develop

the Soviet oil industry in Baku, which became one of the main targets of the German

war machine, also primarily financed by Harriman interests.

I am sure ALOT was left out of that bio...

Hopefully I can get to more tonight...

DJ

A thoroughly enjoyable exchange, David! I look forward to further discussion with you

on this thread, and with Monk and Bill as well.

yes indeed Cliff... quite nicely done. and yes, agreed, Harriman was extremely influential and benefitted himself and his "partners" wherever they may be.

But he does not spend Billions on Defense, Offense, Research, Manpower, etc... the MIC did and does, do you honestly believe they do not have a large portion of the seats available at the BIG table of World Affairs? just becasue they're the MIC doesn't mean they always get what they want as they want it... sometime you need to take three steps back or sideways to take the 50 steps ahead.... It used to start and end with the military... I think the change in world situation has made the seats at that table a bit harder to keep.... more players with more money in an ever shrinking world... 9/11 doesn't happen without Military "failures".

At the core I think we are saying almost the same things... Kings and Fools... one simply need to figure out which one they are.... and proceed with caution.

DJ

Interesting statement Jack... "Irrelevent - unless it is LHO....." so, uh, not really irrelevent.

As long as it is not positively identified as Lovelady... and you post "IF it was Lovelady" (my emphasis) it is very relevent that it is positively not Oswald.

If NOT Lovelady it is even more relevent. WHO it is OTHER than Oswald is irrelevent - maybe.

So far I've seen very little that has been "irrelevent" in this case.

Respectfully

DJ

I've only begun to look into the information on the thread and your post in particular Cliff...

I'll start with this and get your reactions... for as I say below, I agree with much of what you present and feel that Harriman was a key player in bridging Management to Operations without disclosing exactly who "management" was/is.

McGeorge Bundy didn't take orders from military officers, either.

… I must respectfully disagree, David. Neither W. Averell Harriman nor McGeorge Bundy served in the military.

That’s a pretty broad statement about Bundy, Cliff. the "either" you refer to was the Mafia, and that makes sense, but Bundy and the Joint Chiefs had to be working together on many levels... why again not here?

Do we know who else was in the WH Sitroom that might have passed him this information to convey to AF1 and the Cabinet Plane?

I can see that left to the military alone, blaming the Soviets and pushing for a BIG war might have been the tact… the less world-devastating local “Wars” remain profitable and lets everyone keep playing the Cold War game while still engaging in a Hot ones.

According to this site Bundy did serve….

McGeorge Bundy http://www.answers.com/topic/mcgeorge-bundy

Deemed unfit for military service because of nearsightedness, he memorized the eye chart in order to join the army as a private and rose to become a captain by the end of World War II. {I’d say he was a very dedicated military man who understood the chain of command, and how to circumvent it ….)

C: Glad you asked! I was hoping someone would follow through on this!

Max Holland's The Assassination Tapes, pg 57:

At 6:55 p.m. Johnson has a ten minute meeting with Senator J. William Fulbright and diplomat

W. Averell Harriman to discuss possible foreign involvement in the assassination, especially in

light of the two-and-a-half-year sojourn of Lee Harvey Oswald [in Russia]...Harriman, a U.S.

ambassador to Moscow during WWII, is an experienced interpreter of Soviet machinations and

offers the president the unanimous view of the U.S. government's top Kremlinologists. None of

them believe the Soviets have a hand in the assassination, despite the Oswald association.

I see there are some different thoughts on Mr. Harriman…: I agree with your assessment

of the man yet I feel that most in the LBJ government did not want to “publically” find Soviet fingerprints on the assassination. They wanted to fight the Soviets piece-meal, one country at a time and Vietnam was just the place to start. Can’t imagine the Soviets wanted to risk an all out nuclear war either – and given what I’ve read from Golitsyn the longer term plan was to deceive and encourage the depletion of resources of the US, not engage in assassination and mutual annihilation.

"Well, what [Lyndon] Johnson did was, he did one thing before he expanded the war [in Vietnam] and that is he got rid of one way or another all the people [in the Kennedy administration] who had opposed making it an American war. Averell Harriman, he was Under Secretary of State, he made him roving ambassador for Africa so he'd have nothing to do with Vietnam.... He found out that I'd spent part of my childhood in the Philippines, and he tried to persuade me to become ambassador to the Philippines.... Johnson was a very clever man.... He knew who were the hawks and who were the doves. He systematically rid the top layers of the American government of the doves...." --Roger Hilsman, Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs under President Kennedy, interviewed on CNN.com/ColdWar, 8 June 1996

"The in-house coalition of conservatives who opposed the Nixon-Kissinger moves toward detente in 1972 was similar to the one which opposed the Kennedy-Harriman detente initiatives in 1963. It still included [counterintelligence chief] James Angleton in the CIA, who in the 1960s had suspected Harriman of being a Soviet spy, and who in the 1970s reportedly 'objectively' believed Kissinger to be a Soviet spy.'"

Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics and the Death of JFK

Harriman, W. (illiam) Averell http://www.answers.com/topic/w-averell-harriman

(1891-1986) businessman and public official, born in New York City. Harriman held a variety of positions during Democratic administrations from Franklin D. Roosevelt to Lyndon B. Johnson. Harriman was Roosevelt's special representative (”defense expediter”) to Britain for the government program that provided material support to U.S. allies (1941-43). As the number-two man in the Economic Cooperation Administration, he was largely responsible for division of Marshall Plan aid among the nations of western Europe (1948-50). In 1950, early in the Korean War, he served briefly as a special assistant to President Harry S. Truman. As director of the Mutual Security Administration (1951-53), Harriman supervised the rearmament of America's allies in Europe, dispensing billions in military assistance. In 1961 he joined President John F. Kennedy's administration as assistant secretary of state for Far Eastern affairs and undersecretary of state for political affairs; in 1963 he negotiated and signed the Limited Test Ban Treaty. In the role of ambassador-at-large during the Johnson administration (1965-68), Harriman began negotiations for peace in Vietnam. Between his early and later Washington assignments, Harriman served a single term as governor of New York (1955-59).

Hopefully I can get to more tonight...

DJ

Well then...

Great stuff, indeed.

I will dig it up, the link or post the essay, ... a History of Money and the importance of maintaining a nation's central banking system which partly lead us to the men and concepts that have been presented in this thread.

Money gets you into everything. Those who control it, control all.

Yep - money...being a DJ myself I cannot argue with that....seeing as how it's right

Here's that link I was referring to earlier... still haven't had the time to digest... Maybe on my lunch hour.

http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html

Well then...

Great stuff, indeed.

I will dig it up, the link or post the essay, ... a History of Money and the importance of maintaining a nation's central banking system which partly lead us to the men and concepts that have been presented in this thread.

Money gets you into everything. Those who control it, control all.

Jack, excellent point about Allen... and him sitting on the Warren Commission, the "perfect" covert op.

Cliff - uh, been meaning to get something off your chest there?

I've read about these men and their time in History, not nearly enough to know how much your enthusiam colors your analysis, but enough to know you make some interesting and thoughtful statements... with that in mind I'd like a few days to digest, research and reply... sadly this little passion of mine gets much less time that I'd like.

Very cool... this whole place makes my day

DJ

Well put Greg... excellent post

Hey there Jim...

I think you'll need a bit more proof to convince me...

They are similiar but that's not Oswald

DJ

Hi Cliff...

I disagree with your assessment - and if you have the answers to your questions please post them as I see these three things very much militarily controlled.

Was it "the military" who called Air Force One 3 or 4 hours after the assassination

to inform the new President that the lone assassin had been captured?

from Salandria "Tale of Two Tapes"

Despite the evidence of conspiracy of which Dealey Plaza reeked, the White House Situation Room had informed President Johnson and the other occupants of Air Force One that, notwithstanding what they may have smelled, seen and felt in Dealey Plaza which spoke of a conspiratorial crossfire, Oswald was to be designated as the lone assassin.

Who do you suppose was in the WH Situation room telling them this? How many non-military people are even allowed in the WH Situation room?

Was it "the military" who met with LBJ in the White House mere minutes

after his arrival the evening of 11/22/63 to inform him definitively that the

Soviets were not involved in the assassination?

Are you speaking of Bundy? McCone? Logged meetings/Calls or not? please explain, thanks

Was it "the military" who coerced Jack Ruby into silencing the patsy?

I guess it depends on how you look at it... If guns and drugs are being run in and out of the country then those who would have the authority to order Ruby to kill Oswald may have done so at the insistence of the military who was in essence overseeing those operations... or at least turning a blind - and very well paid - eye.

I made the argument before that in 1963 EVERYONE had been in the military in one form or another... everyone given any real responsibility at least.

By the age of 18 you were registered, drafted and indoctrinated to the military way of things... the "pan-organization" you speak of is ultimately controlled by the military establishment... no? Business caters to them, countries are used for their resources by them, and they are intimately connected (and in most cases direct the activities of) the military and security forces of these other countries... a standing military force is one of the founding principle of the US government - been around since the early 1700's. They have the most money, loyalty, organization, reach, men/women and power. No matter where you were... CIA, NSA, Congress, Legal, etc... you came out of the military.

and you followed your orders, regardless of whether you were inside or out... or else.

If "the military" killed JFK because he was a weakling in the Cold War why

would they drop their desire to invade Cuba after only a few hours?

Because there were plenty of other countries in central and south american to control... Cuba had limited land mass, hostile environment and was too close.. Vietnam was the issue not Cuba and the military/CIA/Henry Cabot Lodge knew it. Billions in drugs and weapons and no one looking over your shoulder... that's why.

If not all stemming from and thru the military, then we have LBJ, the Cabinet and Congress... the 25th Amendment with the express cooperation of the Joint Chiefs

I'm very interested in your explanation of the "pan-organizational" entity... thanks

DJ

The clip was still in the rifle.

Mike... so it does not fall out when the last round was either chambered or ejected?

Not a single person mentions it, photographs it, marks it, carries it... and it was loaded with only 4 bullets that Oswald never purchased

in a clip that was never purchased.

and later, after the rifle has disappeared for most the Day (pun intended) it just appears.

I'm going to need a bit more than just your word for it. What leads you to believe it was still in the rifle or EVER on the 6th floor of the TSBD??

thanks

DJ

Exhibit 517 is the photo of the rifle still between the boxes. I use Boone as he specifically mentions the time the rifle was found yet incorrectly places the assassination at 1pm. "It was 1pm when we heard the shots" Simply trying to put the timeline in context.

Also to put Truly's statements into context - he is fairly sure Fritz is with the rifle and Truly's gone up there not too long after 1pm

Mr. BALL - The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit 517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it?

Mr. BOONE - Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it too. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL - What time was it?

Mr. BOONE - 1:22 p.m. in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL - 1 :22?

Mr. BOONE - Yes.

Mr. BALL - You looked at your watch?

Mr. BOONE - That is correct.

Mr. BALL - And made a note of it?

Mr. BOONE - Yes; I did.

Fritz arrives at 12:58

Hill with Boone and Mooney and someone else go up to the 7th and then down to the 6th floor right away

Over Alyea's film you can hear someone say "Gerry Hill just leaned out the window"

.. Is that Decker with Fritz walking in?

.. It cuts to street cops as Fritz goes in - the shadows are very long, at this point, or so it seems

.. at 24 seconds in they are just trampling all over that crime scene corner, they seem to be standing on the hulls

.. at 27/28/29 seconds it appears as if Fritz is holding a hull and while talking... watch the space between the 2 men and you can see his hand - don't see much of it - wish I could work with that video - I may have the mpg and will try tomorrow

I believe it is Gerry Hill who tells Sawyer when/where the hulls were found a minute or so before he radios in at 1:11pm.

Hill doesn't find the hulls, Mooney does

After Hill meets Fritz at the elevator - I place this about 1:07/1:08pm - he takes him over as the testimony says...

The hulls were found before Fritz arrives, before Hill shows him where and before Hill gets to the ground floor to meet with Sawyer, that's got to take a couple-few minutes, no?

Plus Hill takes a minute or so to speak with Lt Day...

Hill's WC testimony

Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."

And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention.

So I hope you see that I don't think they waited very long at all... just took 4-7 minutes to get up there, find it, tell Fritz, tell Day, tell Sawyer and have it broadcast at 1:11pm. the rifle was found not too long after that.

Riddle me this batman

If someone fired and ejected the hulls as they were shooting... where was the clip?

Kidding aside... I think we can see that the hulls were found before 1:12 and Fritz may have just entered or had only recently entered the building when they were found. Truly puts the time even earlier. and then LATER, imo, boxes were stacked and moved and photographed and, and, and... it all becomes like comparing the xrays to the photos... pointless.

DJ

I believe that events happened much earlier as well as much later on the 6th floor.

Shells/Hulls and rifles were found in a variety of places, imo, and little by little I'd like to prove it.

IMO the key players are Hill, Sawyer, Alyea, Truly, Mooney and Boone… Roger Craig is not mentioned by a single one of these witnesses!

and the hulls were definitely found before 1:11 while the rifle had to have been found not much later... well before the official 1:22.

I’ve tried to keep a timeline going but there is a little jump around to substantiate my {thoughts}.

{Sawyer only receives the news of the hulls being found from someone who had found them... he never went up to the 6th floor. Someone came down and told Sawyer... who and when? Hill comes down sometime between 12:50 when he gets to the TSBD and 1:11 when Sawyer calls in the hulls being found.}

Dispatcher 10-4. 1:11 p.m.

9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the 5th floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now.

{Mike - Sawyer says the fifth, Hoover says the fifth, Alyea says the fifth, Mooney came up from the 5th to the 6th floor...

it also appears that the food and soda were also down on the 5th floor}

Mr. HILL. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining to the President's trip or any other function other than the investigation of police applicants.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the city hall?

….

{Hill con’t} I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure was Inspector Sawyer---but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't say for sure--- saying we think we have located the building where the shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help.

At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. The captain said, "Go ahead and go." {Capt. W. R. Westbrook, who was my commander}

From the DPD transcripts

12:41 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) “We need some more men down at the Texas School Book Depository. We should have some on Main if we could get someone to pick up and bring them down here.”

{Meanwhile Fritz is on route to the hospital yet I thought it only took a few minutes to get to Parkland… they left at 12:33 and still in route at 12:41??}

12:41 Ch2 300 (Captain John Will Fritz) En route to the hospital.

12:47 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2

12:47 Dispatcher Go ahead 550.

12:47 550 car 2 550/2 and 104 en route to Elm and Houston, Code 3.

{Hill con’t}

We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told him the President was shot.

And he said, "Where are you going?"

And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came from."

And he said, "Could I go with you?"

So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what the number was.

We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, Jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there.

I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so."

And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?"

And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out."

About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from homicide. a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy sheriffs came up.

{came up as in “to the front of the TSBD” or up into the building?? In wither case we can assume this happens at 12:58}

Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.

Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

…

Mr. BALL - And who were you with?

Mr. BOONE - Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what have you. Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember.

Mr. BALL - What happened there?

Mr. BOONE – Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the shots.

{AND THIS IS THE MAN WE ARE TRUSTING WITH THE 1:22 TIMING OF FINDING THE RIFLE??}

The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the street there.

Mr. BALL - Did you go up into the building then?

Mr. BOONE – I took him {Bowers} on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time to await somebody to take a statement from him.

Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I don't know whether—I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or not at that time they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building.

At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. BOONE - Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney found the shells.

Mr. BALL - Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells?

Mr. BOONE - Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them.

{Boone places the shots at 1pm, is back at the sheriff’s office, gets back to the TSBD and knows that Mooney found the hulls, just as Hill describes… yet not nearly as late as Boone is trying to say. Mike is not so far off… Boone’s watch was 30 minutes fast!!}

{Mr. Hill’s action while Fritz is “running back and forth from floor to floor”}

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies* and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----

Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect. I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window. Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.

Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?

Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.

Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.

Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.

Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?

Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.

{So this MUST occur between 12:58 and 1:11, more realistically between 1:03 and 1:09 since it takes time for Hill to get up and down to the 6th floor and for Fritz to also get to the 6th floor yet we know Hill tells Sawyer about the hulls BEFORE the 1:11 transmission}

{This begins to conflict with Truly’s story about going up to talk to Fritz about Oswald BEFORE 1pm yet he does feel as if the rifle was found when he gets there}

Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.

Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time.

Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time.

{Truly has a very hard time with the time being at least 1:22 when he went up… he went in with Baker, ran up the stairs to the roof and came back down again to learn that Oswald was gone (see my previous post for statements) met with Lumpkin and was taken immediately up to Fritz.

{Hill con't} Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on the sixth floor from the sheriff's office.

Mr. BELIN. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, *I believe I said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar?

Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.

{At some point after the hulls are found Hill meets Fritz at the elevator after Fritz had started on the first floor to work his way up... Hill and others - Boone, Mooney and ? went to the 7th floor and worked down (supposedly Alyea was working his way up with Fritz) . }

Mr. HILL:….

…When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

{This takes a couple of minutes… so yes, Fritz is in the building when the hulls are found but is NOT on the 6th floor at the time not is he outside with Decker as Mooney claims yet as a Deputy Sheriff Mooney had to be more concerned with alerting Decker than Fritz… he could have assumed Fritz was simply with Decker yet may not have seen him.}

Sawyer’s transmission at 1:11

Dispatcher 10-4. 1:11 p.m.

9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the 5th floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now.

Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.

I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."

Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?

Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."

Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition. Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

."

From the Logs:

12:45 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On this building, it's unknown whether he is still in the building or not known if he was there in the first place.

1:11 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the fifth floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now.

{as an aside... It's between 12:58 and 1:12 or so that Tippet is murdered}

{Hill’s testimony later on}

I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what' we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene?

Mr. HILL. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could have been 19.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.

Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio {1:16 transmission} that said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.

{G.L. Hill helps find the hulls and winds up in the car with the .38 revolver in his hands, not 20 minutes before the shells he was shown provided a different result}

Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?

Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver, Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.

1:26 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 500/2.

1:26 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him.

1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2.

1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol.

1:46 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2.

1:46 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Do you have any additional information on this Oak Cliff suspect?

1:46 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 10-4.

1:52 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2.

1:52 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Suspect on the shooting the police officer is apprehended and en route to the station.

1:52 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theater after a fight.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 223 is in the car with us. See if someone can pick up his car at the rear of the Texas Theater and take it to the station. It's got the keys in it.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) We're bringing the prisoner straight to the City Hall.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Special Service unit is with us also. We're in his car, 492.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Zangs and Colorado.

1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Yes, sir. Him and his gun.

{On the drive back }

Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."

Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.

I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.

And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.

Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?

Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was.

{I believe the hulls were found by 1:03 or 1:04, Mooney yells out to Decker and mistakenly says Fritz was also down there

Hill looks out the window for Fritz (possibly) and decides to go down and find him...

Fritz arrives at the 6th floor about 1:05/1:06 and does his thing... (I am positive there is testimony about the surprise at least one observer has to Fritz picking the hulls up... just need to find it)

The rifle is found soon after (Hill says nothing about the rifle, he's on his way towards Oak Cliff)

I hope I got this post correct as I've moved stuff around and been doing quite a bit of research at the same time.

My memory is pretty good about detail yet I like to have the source material handy.

DJ

Mike/Lee... Not trying to butt in here... just enjoy the subject.

Truly puts his discussion with Fritz (about LHO) and the finding of the rifle much earlier than 1:20-1:25... more like 12:50-1pm

and according to Hill, the casing were found well before 1:15. In fact... before Ball helps Truly change his mind... the rifle was found earlier as well...

Truly’s questioning was yet another example of leading the witness about the timing and location of key personnel… it’s appalling actually.

Mooney calls to Fritz on the Ground when the shells are found – unknown configuration

Decker says Fritz arrives after he does even though they are together

Alyea claims he sees the shells in a small area, bunched together

Craig claims he was with Mooney (Craig is not mentioned at all during Mooney’s Testimony) and also sees them bunched together...

Hill has yet another story… which also includes calling down yet he is on the way down (AFTER FINDING THE SHELLS) when he runs into Fritz on the way up!?!?

Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them?

Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building.

Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.

While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. About that time?

Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don't recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?

Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?

Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.

Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?

Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.

Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.

Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?

Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.

Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address?

Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.

Mr. BALL. Immediately?

Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.

Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Not over that?

Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."

Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.

Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers.

Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. That's right.

Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.

So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down. We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to seven and shook it down.

At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed officer up there.

Mr. HILL:….

…When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

Roger Craig’s “When they Kill a President”

Luke Mooney and I reached the southeast corner at the same time.

We immediately found three rifle cartridges laying in such a way

that they looked as though they had been carefully and deliberately

placed there--in plain sight on the floor to the right of the

southeast corner window. Mooney and I examined the cartridges very

carefully and remarked how close together they were. The three of

them were no more than one inch apart and all were facing in the

same direction, a feat very difficult to achieve with a bolt action

rifle--or any rifle for that matter. One cartridge drew our

particular attention. It was crimped on the end which would have

held the slug. It had not been stepped on but merely crimped over

on one small portion of the rim. The rest of that end was

perfectly round.

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.

Date: November 23 1963

….The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signaled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webstr, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing. {where is Hill all this time??}

From Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46

I [followed] the search team that was on its way to the rear elevator, to start the floor by floor search. We searched every floor, all the way to the roof. The gunman could have still been in the building. Finding nothing, they started back down. After approximately 18 minutes, they were joined by Captain Fritz, who had first gone to Parkland Hospital.

{the gunman could still have been in the building yet they allow “citizens” to go back to work and even ride in the elevator with the officers!!}

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...ker_Ex_5323.pdf

page 461

After my first arrival at the Texas School Book Depository

Building from Parkland Hospital, Captain Fritz of the

DPD, Homicide Division arrived and he xxxx went on up into

the Texas School Book repository Building, leaving a pair

of his officers down stairs where they opened up their

automobile and brought out rifles to assist them in

securing the building. Shortly thereafter Captain Fritz

came to my office….

Sims and Boyd say Decker went with them (and Fritz) in the same car…?!?

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1538-002.gif Curry tells Fritz to get to the TSBD….

“Sheriff Decker went with us” {first 3 lines}

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz2.htm Fritz affidavit

Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of building, brought the three empty hulls to my office.

{kind of strange to add the line about showing where they fell – to differentiate taking pictures of the hulls after he threw them back on the floor?}

Not to mention all the discussion and affidavits putting the shells on the 5th and even the 3rd floors along with quite a lot of activity on the 4th floor (where Sawyer rund up, lloks around for a minute and comes back down...).

Interesting discussion

DJ

I second that Bernice

thank you to Mr. Nelson for a refreshing look at how the man lived amidst so much about how he didn't.

Now I know they're not rare yet the ones of Dulles and JFK walking in from the helicopter at Allen's ribboning ceremony are eerie.

DJ

Couple of thoughts

Was there water/cleanser in the bucket or was it to scoop up "evidence" and be off with it?

If anything fell out of JFK's back it could be in that limo as well and what easier cover than a bucket

did the bucket remain behind?

and the other is a question that I will work on researching later...

Was it Dillion or thru Dillion who handed down the promotions and penalties.. who told Boring

what was to be done and had Behn pay for it?

If not Dillion than who ?

DJ

and oh yes... Blaine's book... isn't it about time for the other side to push back after IARRB?

Been reading ALOT of Vince's work... Horne and Vince - what how why when and where.

Boring is Interesting!!

Thank you Bernice... excellent once again. I have limited time to actually research in my day to day so the links and photos (and simply finding the time to read and post here) has been very gratifying.

I look forward to looking thru your posts and contributing what I can

DJ

Excellent Bernice.. and thanks once again..

Seems I've read that the President, in a motorcade, is supposed to arrive last... according to SS protocol

all other "lower" dignitaries pass first - then the President, who would want to even bother with the people

behind the President, that's why they go first, to honor him.

I prefer to site a source for that, and since I do not have one handy I will put forth that this is only my understanding.

VMP states in Ch 6 that JFK was moved from the 7th position to the 5th

Other vehicle shuffling:

“All those in the motorcade proceeded to get into their cars. There was the usual amount of minor confusion—people hustling around to locate their car number …”

—— Presidential Aide Larry O’Brien80

President Kennedy’s limousine had the #7 taped to its outside windshield, on the lower left corner, yet it was in the fifth position, only the fourth vehicle in the motorcade.81

Footnote 81: Fred Newcomb and Perry Adams, Murder From Within, unpublished manuscript, pp. 29, 37–39; High Treason, p. 135. The Secret Service learned a lot about proper motorcade vehicle order after the violent mob attack on Vice President Nixon’s car in Caracas, Venezuela in 1958; as depicted on p. 36 of Know Your Government: The U.S. Secret Service by Gregory Matusky and John Hayes (New York: Chelsea House Pub-lishers, 1988), the number ‘1’ was taped prominently on the windshield, making the car vulnerable to attack without proper pilot and lead cars (and motorcycles) clearing the way. See also Anthony Summers, The Arrogance of Power: The Secret World of Richard Nixon (Penguin USA, 2001), photo page (Caracas motorcade), as well as the 1995 Discovery Channel documentary Inside The Secret Service regarding the 1958 Caracas trip: it is mentioned that the Secret Service learned a lot from this trip

Is it my imagination or in most of these photos, JFK is always the lead car - the other 3 vehicles before him in Dallas... the lead motocycles, the lead car, then the limo... 3rd, I believe. I must be missing something.

DJ

In Mexico City ...

Tough to see through the blizzard of paper, but motorcyclists appear to be on either side of the limo (as well as in front).

SS agents also beside car.

http://www.life.com/image/50388643

Peter Fokes

Thanks Peter..

yet once again..

Look at that incredibly tall building with LOTS of windows in the background

while photographers are IN FRONT of the limo on foot... Can't possibly be going 40+ mph

Looks like the limo finished turning right in front of that building and is moving fairly slowly..

Was it simply a sign of the times... slow moving "parade" type motorcades, with JFK out in the open..

Thanks for the photo yet as I am seeing... it seems that SS protection protocol was not strictily adhered to in many instances with JFK

yet the biggest one has to be the photo truck moved away from the front (and Burkley so far away) - most of the shots in this thread had to have been taken by those on that truck.

DJ

While a little later to the research party, my interest started when I found THAT Life magazine my parents had kept.

Years went by, interest waned and while in a used book store I found and bought Rush to Jugdement and have been intellectually hooked, stimulated and amazed ever since.

Thank you.

My question - What are your thoughts on whether Humes and Boswell did that surgery in front of Robinson at Bethesda from 6:40 - 7:00 and then bold face lied about it the rest of their lives -

Doctors under orders... ?

We look forward to your thoughts and answers

DJ

Thanks Bernice...

In each instance, or most, the photo flatbed must have been in place... at the front.

'cept in Dallas. changed that morning

{sigh}

thanks to VMP as well... an amazing read and opened my eyes to so much.

Looking for a little help with this one

Doing some searching online (while reading Survivor's Guilt) and

cannot seem to find an image or video of a motorcade in the "correct" formation around JFK.

Chapter 6 describes flatbed trucks in front of JFK for photographers, how he's supposed to arrive LAST to a location, after the VP, Senators, etc... have already arrived and are either waiting for him or have continued on to the destination... and the last minute changes the reversed ALL the protection from the front and minimized protection from the rear.

The Pres walks in last, arrives last... standard protocol. Just not in Dallas that day.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n1.html

those I have found show JFK in the lead car or close to it and have very little protection around him.

http://www.historylink.org/db_images/req098.JPG

http://www.irishtimes.com/150/images/articles/kennedy.jpg

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Hawaii2.jpg

http://www.thewildgeese.com/blogs/uploaded..._dub-711335.jpg

http://www.jfkresearch.com/JFK_Tampa/Motorcade_tpa.jpg

If someone could post one just to prove the point about the change in protection from what was "normal"

I'd appreciate it...

thanks

DJ

Not sure Todd... sorry

I am speaking of the image to the right of the tree behind the three men on the steps in Moorman.

Here's another not so great close up... this is where the muddy footprints and bumper prints were found.

As opposed to other images this one is just too obvious that whatever that is it'snot part of the foliage or the fence...

Would love to see a higher quality image and analysis...

DJ

Worse yet is that the photos themselves prove the rifle to be different than the one attributed to him in evidence.

my .02

DJ

Why? and How?

hey craig...

I do not know who published this first, possibly Gil Jesus, http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...p;mode=threaded, just not sure.... is that on the rifle in custody and in all the pictures, the shoulder strap is connected to an oval ring sling that is mounted on the left side of the rifle, the rifle in the backyard photos has its ring mounted on the bottom of the rifle http://i42.tinypic.com/25z4g3k.jpg and Gil goes on to name a few more reasons - just not related to that photo.

I've read your posts here Craig and while I agree with your measurement and angle analysis you'd have to agree that creating this photo, these photos, was not rocket science at the time. Add to the fact that the DPD had to go back a second time to find them, like the print on the gun barrel that "appears" the next day, or the clip that "appears" after the fact, or that Oswald went home on a Thursday - just "out of the ordinary" type stuff that makes one question the motive and reasoning.

It would be great if you could show the photo is not possibly a composite based on your knowledge - or at least why you think it isn't and more importantly - to please acknowledge my post about the timing of Frtiz' questions and the discovery of the photos/negatives... I still can't see how, after the fact, he remembers questioning him with the photos on his mind when he knew full well when those photos were found and brought in... a mistake? an offhand remark where he is mistaken about the time when others corroborate the chronology? or a simple clue about when/where those photos might have been made.

btw, I learned long ago to NEVER use 2d measuring tools on 2d representations of 3d images, simply does not work. So I appreciate where you are coming from with most of your posts... but some of these topics require more than measurable data: common sense and "what would an innocent group do with evidence" come to mind.

DJ

Thanks Lee... appreciate and agree with your thoughts.

We do get sucked into the minutia arguments with the other side quite often... part of the point of the conflicting evidence...

I also apprecite the thought about the report yet I think we have to give it more weight than you do... much like the Baker and Weitzman affidavits that emphatically contradict later testimony. I cannot see how one goes back in time, as Fritz does in this report, and literally create timelines that are in conflict with existing hard evidence. He knows when these negatives were booked into evidence, Baker knew when he actually ran into a person on the stairs and Seymour identified the rifle - a whole day later, exactly as he did the day he "found" it.

Dismissing these afterward when even more conflicting information is available discounts the notion that the FBI/CIA et al could care less what was contained in the "official record" and that these little hints and mix-ups are the cracks in the veneer of the conspiracy/cover-up. Worse yet is that the photos themselves prove the rifle to be different than the one attributed to him in evidence.

So just like Hancock's premise that proof is in the whispers, heresay and unchecked comments that build upon themselves to paint a certain picture, I see that we find pathways to reality in these discovered gems - when looked at from the standpoint of, what would an innocent DPD do and say versus one that was not, these anomolies take on new depth.

my .02

DJ

Either Michael Paine and Will Fritz were completely wrong about the timing of these photographs into the record or there is something not quite right with this picture, pardon the pun.

I’ve never had a paternity test done Craig, but I’m sure my Dad is my Dad. There are some things in life that you have to take on faith…

I would never take ANY of this on faith, thats just a recipe for disaster. The bottom line here is that there is no real PROOF about the timing of the introduction of the BY photos in any of this. Lots and lots of conflicting data and recollections. Nothing out of the ordinary, but no proof ....

Very interesting thread - I've read thru the entire thing and was very happy to find reference to the Fritz notes but we're missing a piece of evidence

An observation

On page 9 it appears Fritz is trying to trap Oswald into saying he lived where Frtiz seems to know the photos were taken... NOT that he showed Oswald these photos ONLY that Frtiz is aware of their existence and knows what they look like... this is at 12:35pm on 11/23/63

and as we've already seen in the FBI report dated 2-3-64 Det Rose does not find the negatives until 3:20pm 11-23-63

Add this now, he books them into evidence at 4:30pm on 11-23-63 - when the 12 photos were printed is not yet determined

Faked or not (I am not touching that one in this post) I find it hard to understand how Fritz can be questioning/trapping Oswald regarding photos that had not been yet found, not yet known to be found, not yet known they would be found or even prints yet made so FRITZ himself would know what he was asking Oswald to describe.

I look forward to the discussion

DJ