David Josephs

David...

How is that you know that the shooters were communist -

the fact they worked together and in unison for a greater cause???

Whether it was Landsdale or not... a simple question

Would a policeman allow ANYONE to stroll right past him while armed and escorting these men, or any man/men into custody?

Isn't that the strangest part of that first picture? Let alone the casual manner the rear policeman is carrying his weapon while seeing this man walk up and then past his "partner"... no reponse from either ??!??

Unless he was indeed known not to be a threat...

Has anyone considered how much blood should be flowing from JFK's throat if he was hit from either "front or rear" with a rifle?

Same question for a flechette.

I'm not asking this, in relation to what is/isn't seen on the film, yet!!!

thanks,

chris

Interesting thought again Chris.... I've seen this image of the shirt.. is there a color, full frontal version of his shirt?

You'd think with a bullethole just about where the 2nd letter "O" is in Laboratory, there would be blood all around that button. We'd also want to see the tie in color as well

DJ

I agree with Jim that Chris' methodology of syncing all the films to search for anomolies is sound.

Question for Chris though... with different/variable film rates what might be seen in one might NOT be seen in another just due to physics, right? I realize we'd be looking for Muchmore significant changes (lol). But only if frames were removed, not if they were simply painted over.

and given the Nix and Muchmore films were much less likely to have been altered than Zapruder, a complete stop of the limo, is imo not realistic. I seem to remember reading though that Greer was picked exactly BECAUSE he had a tendency to hit the brakes when presented with an unexpected stimulus... soryy I can't cite it, maybe someone else can.

There is no way Zapruder was shown to the public that weekend. and if you look at Muchmore's first part (my Muchmore is a part 1 and 2) it does indeed end as the limo is about to turn onto elm and there is indeed some footage in Muchmore of the limo on Elm before the shot.

Yes, the limo slows down.

Hey Craig!

Must you always be so pissed at the entire world that everything you write has to be so caustic?

Can't imagine ANYONE taking anything you say seriously or you ever getting into a normal discussion with members of this forum...

Your rights, my rights, on this forum not withstanding.... how about a little people-skills training... you remove the enjoyment of open discussion with attack after attack and nothing to contribute... Must you chime in on every thread with your "I haven't had any in 30 years" attitude? Even Oscar Myer packages their baloney to look appealing.

Great job dude

BUMP

So none of the LNers here are up to the task of describing how LHO got to where he was supposed to be, when he was supposed to be there...

How he knew to be there then and how he was not seen by anyone going or coming from there.

Guess it's just like all those people, including Curry and Decker, the SS agents and Truly... who all experienced shots coming from the RR yard, west of the TSBD.

They were all wrong

I'm sorry but I forget which Exec Session but the commissioners were discussing how in the world he is shot in the throat from "there" - assuming they are speaking of the Sniper's window...

And proceed to talk about his turning around.

At no time does JFK turn 180 degrees to face the TSBD (remember the streeet is constantly turning to the left thereby making the turn farther and farther to JFK's right.

Hoover mentions the turn to LBJ as he understands the shot was to the throat, not to the back and thru the throat... this is before Tague and the SBT...

DJ

IMO you are confusing the reaction to the back shot with the reaction to the throat.

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart... (which I have a tough time believing based on what the Perry says about the trach... the damage was to JFK's right side... the umbrella man shooting from JFK's right, from right to left, would not create damage to the right of JFK's neck but the left)... or some other kind of CIA "new" weapon... it was designed to enter with minimal pain or notice.

Problem is there are very few other places that shot could have come from unless from the Overpass or a second GK shooter.

Umbrella dart, no.

Blood soluble flechette fired circa Z190 by Black Dog Man from behind the short concrete wall in front of the picket fence, yes.

This is arguably the most likely scenario.

I like the flechette concept.. the BDM origination is a problem for me.

Beztner, which was very close to when this shot would have been taken makes it hard to reconcile someone just standing out in the open firing a weapon.

Regardless of what Hudson says I still hold to the idea that BDM was possibly Hudson since he says he walked from the Tool shed to his spot on the steps which gives him the opportunity to walk right past that spot. I realize he says he was sitting there and just stood up when the limo came but I simply do not see him in this image of willis 5. BDM cannot be GArnold either imo as the placement is wrong and the darkness of his appearance is hard to reconcile with the supposed lightness of Arnold's uniform and the fact he was much further back closer to the picket fence (if there at all)

In addition, we feel pretty confident that there were shooters behind the fence... no way a member of that team puts himself between the shooters and JFK.

IMO the throat shot was either from the badgeman position or from the overpass's southern side.

Yet would still like to hear thoughts about the reaction we see at 223/224... I still contend this is from the back wound and NOT the throat at all.

the Elbows wouldn't fly out nor would he lunge forward from a tiny throat entrance... the back shot has a direct response to that effect.

DJ

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart

David, Just for the record, my reply was tongue in cheek. I was joking about the Umbrella dart and the storm drain garbage. I was giving a ridiculous answer to a ridiculous suggestion.

My bad... never know anymore.

Point still remains valid though I believe...

the throat shot was tiny and imo very much designed to keep him still... boggles the mind that Jackie did not pull him down after they emerge from the sign.

Maybe she couldn't between the back-brace and the 2 shots. Kind of strange, if a set-up, to wait so long between 224 and 313 in the hopes he'd still be upright... quite a gamble don't you think - given how important it was for him to be killed in before he left Dallas - depending on your view as to who was behind it.

that is unless we believe in the connally shot and a missed head shot (as a result of the back wound pushing him out of the way. Then there is the manhole cover shot and the Tague shot that also miss... so I may have mispoke.

DJ

IMO you are confusing the reaction to the back shot with the reaction to the throat.

If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart... (which I have a tough time believing based on what the Perry says about the trach... the damage was to JFK's right side... the umbrella man shooting from JFK's right, from right to left, would not create damage to the right of JFK's neck but the left)... or some other kind of CIA "new" weapon... it was designed to enter with minimal pain or notice.

Problem is there are very few other places that shot could have come from unless from the Overpass or a second GK shooter.

What about the theory that says the throat shot was indeed when Duncan places it and is minorly in vasive yet extremely paralyzing as intended.

Seems that JFK hardly moves at all after that shot EXCEPT for 221-224 when he is shot in the back, is thrown somehwat forward and his elbows raise up.

Looking at his reaction as he emerges from the sign, he is in distress and his hands are starting to react.

I think the back shot occurs just before he emerges, pushes him forward and we see the reaction we see.

2 seperate shots with confused reactions about the throat shot.

DJ

edit: not sure why the gif is not rolling... will try to post again - DJ

edit #2 - guess you have to click on it to see it... thought they just ran...

I wasn't addressing myself to any Lawson message, Jim. I was merely pointing out the obvious about

this poster, which is clearly a forgery, due to the picture of JFK & Jackie that adorns the front of it,

which is a photo that was snapped about 45 minutes before the "12:30 PM" time shown on the same

fake "poster".

Definitely DVP... I thought I had posted to that fact but it was a reply to a GMack email... sorry.

Dawned on me just after I posted it... But the invitation has been proven authentic and Lawson does tell Curry that the timing is to be at the

Trade Mart by 12:15 after landing at 11:30 or so.

Peter,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one except for the "readying the trap". That is the entire point of this thread.

For Oswald to "ready the trap" a number of things must occur...

- rifle is assembled

- Sniper's lair is built

- Noone is on the 6th floor between 11:55 and 12:30

- witnesses do NOT see multiple men, in different windows, sporting rifles at 12:15

- Oswald is NOT in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 or as late as 12:25

- Oswald knows when the limo would pass by so as to have the time to "ready the trap"

Since these actions are in themselves contradictory, I conclude there was no luck, or LHO involved in the actual assassination.

By some means the information was relayed to those who were involved in the assassination, positions were taken, the "trap was readied"

Wasn't it one of the SS agents who said it felt as if they were driving into an ambush, a shooting gallery?

If anyone can present a timeline between 12:00 and 12:30 for LHO to have accomplished the "readying" please post... I believe we will find

both the opportunity and evidence lacking in this respect.

DJ

I don't recall it Jim.... but I remember a picture of an Oswald looking person talking to a Dallas police officer out front of the TSBD, just don't know when that was taken.

then again, it does not seem so impossible to have the actual Oswald out front within minutes of the assassination given he was seen by Reid right after the Truly/Baker incident and then makes his way down to the 1str floor and out the front.

I am hoping the point of this thread is to show that if we are to believe any of the wsitnesses that place Oswald eslewhere (2nd floor lunchroom) at 12:15.

I like this quote from the Oliver Stones JFK 100 site:

Eddie Piper and William Shelly [sic -- Shelley] saw Oswald eating lunch in the first floor lunch room around twelve. Around 12:15, on her way out of the building to see the motorcade, secretary Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the second floor snack room, where he said he went for a Coke . . .

Irrelevant. Oswald's whereabouts at 12:00 or 12:15 are not an issue. emphasis added

by not refuting the claim we can basically feel comfortable that the Arnold claim of 12:15 is valid albeit dismissable by this "OSWALD DID IT" site... it is indeed relevent where he was at 12:15... the same time other witnesses see people and rifles on the 6th floor.

The question we are asking is not whether Oswald could have made it up, built the rifle, built the sniper's lair, and accomplished the feat...

but

What the heck was he still doing on the 2nd floor at 12:15 and (ala Mr. Carroll)

did he know or not know about the timing of the parade...and/or the assassination?

If he was there, as some say, to help prevent the assassination, he was not doing a good job by hiding in the TSBD during the parade

... leads me to conclude Oswald either didn't have a clue and was somehow out of sight exactly when he needed to be or

he knew all along he was being set up and stayed in the 2nd floor lunchroom the entire time.... or

he actually did run up, pulled off the most amazing shooting performance in history, and ran back down, unseen, unmussed, cold-blooded enough to buy a Coke and shrug off the crime of the century with casual glances and some mumbling....

Guess it was a good thing Williams, Norman and Jarvis (and Dougherty) did not hear anyone running up the steps, past the 5th floor, walking across the floor to the corner window above them, assemble the rifle and move the boxes... they only heard the 3 click-Booms... and no footsteps or shuffling of his escape.

DJ

I hear you John...

The two Oswalds (Jiffy Mart sighting) may also play into this if they both were at the TSBD at some point. One of them might have been one of the men seen on the 6th floor. The When and Where becomes much more important as well as a predicate to the How and Why.

Are Oswlad's actions consistent with someone who is not exactly sure when the president he supposedly decided to kill days before, is passing by?

or are the details of the assassination such that teams of people, all in radio contact, know when and where to be, are seen there (or the areas they would be in are somehow secure from unwanted visitors) and are shooting simultaneously via radio command.

We know Altgens was chased away from the overpass and RR yard at 11:15

Do we believe Richard Carr seeing someone on the 7th floor at 12:00

Bowers' people and cars between 12:15 and 12:30

Rowland's people at 12:15

Carolyn Walthers sighting at 12:15 of men on the 5th floor

John Powell also sees men on the 6th floor with guns at 12:15

Carolyn Aronold who sees Oswald at 12:15 on the 2nd floor

Ruby Henderson also sees 2 men on the 6th floor at 12:15

BRWilliams testifies that the 6th floor is empty when he leaves at 12:20 to go down to the 5th (where is Dougherty?)

12:31 Baker/Truly meet Oswald

12:32 Oswald passes Reid heading to the front of the TSBD

12:33 Rowald see a man looks like Oswald but with different clothing run out the back of TSBD

Carr sees men coming around from the back of TSBD and leave in a car parked on Houston

12:34/5 Oswald leaves thru the front door... possibly gets in the car that RCraig sees which is somewhat supported by Oswald's outburst about the Paine station wagon later on at the office.

The LNers are going to have to reconcile the multiple witnesses to men on the 6th floor between 12:00-12:30 while LHO was spotted numerous times during that period on the lower floors. With those men working up on the 6th floor - when does LHO have the time to set up and be ready when he has no real idea when the limo is coming by?

DJ

Not sure where we can go with this...

Maybe the fact about the 2 Oswalds (Jiffy store visits in the morning, twice) and how this other Oswald may have also been in the building at the time?

The biggest problem I've always had was the set-up... if LHO was seen anywhere at the time of the shots would "they" have simply gotten rid of that witness?

Oswald was supposed to have been killed and all that not even an issue... But he WAS seen after 12:15.

DJ

Part of

Dallas doctor Malcolm Perry, who worked on JFK and Oswald, dies at 80

by Scott Farwell, Dallas Morning News, Dec 8, 2009

Dr. Robert McClelland was the last surgeon to attend to Kennedy in Trauma Room 1. McClelland, a longtime friend and colleague of Dr. Perry's, remembered that the shock of the situation faded quickly when they entered the trauma room. "At Parkland, we're accustomed, all of us are, to treating many different cases," McClelland told the Associated Press on Monday. "Of course, it's the president," he said. Was it hard to put that aside? "No, not really. Everything was so rapidly happening that we were called on the peak of the moment."

So a bit of a contradiction here....

Sorry, but this is the real SHOCK from the Parkland doctors from that day:

Mr. SPECTER - Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?

Dr. PERRY - It could have been either.

Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.

Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.

Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?

Dr. PERRY - Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound.

Completely Jim.

Kind of like arguing about his ability to fire the rifle when in fact THAT rifle was never in his possession.

This also gives more of a reason for the FBI to say "no one sees Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30" when they know this not to be true as shown above.

As he is indeed seen a number of times up to minutes before the assassination and then by Truly/Baker within 90 seconds and again by Mrs. Reid within 2 minutes after... it becomes harder and harder to assume he simply "ran up at the last minute" - he'd have never known when that last minute was, who would be there, etc...

We have to remember he's on his own timeline, not one that has to fit back into the 12:30 shots from 2, if not three direcetions.

Excuse my jumping in... I am sure Jim will get to you in time yet I had an observation.

IMO there is a HUGE difference between the shock "and procedures" in the ER in Dallas and at Bethesda's autopsy.

There were no military brass at Parkland watching over the doctors as they proceeded to see a frontal throat wound and a large right rear blow-out. No one wathcing over Hill as he looks down into JFK's head, or Jackie for that matter.

Nothing could be done to assist JFK at Parkland - shock or no shock they performed the duties they were expected to perform fairly well.

The same cannot be said of the Bethesda "autopists" (if they can be called that). Their shock had to be at the manner in which they were ordered to do things that evening, what was readily apparent to them and what they were ultimately ordered to put into the official record. That is the same shock and repulsion that we feel today.

DJ

Hey Jim,

The Invitation actually says "twelve noon" yet I am not sure who these invitations were sent to... if VIP you'd imagine they'd want to be there early to greet him while the posters say 12:30 for the rest of the people.. just a guess.

I did have this from one of my own essays but would have to research the source as it's not listed:

SS agent Lawson told Police Chief Curry that the Luncheon at the Trade Mart was to begin at 12:15 (45 minute ride from Love Field after arriving at 11:30) The invitation says 12 noon. They arrives at 11:39 and leaves for Trade Mart at 11:55.

and this:

Duke Lane Ed Forum Post http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14478.html

Jun 18 2009, 05:50 PM

I was leafing through old issues (is there any other kind?) of The Third Decade and came across an article by Timothy Cwiek in Volume 3, Issue 2 (January 1987) called "The Motorcade Route Stories that Never Were." Accompanying his article, reprinted on the back cover, were newspaper articles from both the Dallas Times Herald and Morning News detailing the route in print (published in the WC evidentiary volumes as Commission Exhibits 1362 and 1363, respectively).

CE1362, published on November 19, indicates that the Dallas route was "revealed," indicating that:

From the (Love Field) airport, the President's party will proceed to Mockingbird to Lemmon and then to Turtle Creek, turning south on Cedar Springs.

The motorcade will then pass through downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons to the Trade Mart.

The return trip will be more direct: Stemmons to Harry Hines, to Mockingbird and on to Love Field — a distance of 4.2 miles.

A couple of things stand out in these articles. First, while the Times Herald indicates that Kennedy would have a "three hour visit to the city," it does not even note when that visit will begin. The News, on the other hand, indicates that the President's plane was due to land at Love Field at "about 11:30 a.m." For what it's worth, no time for Kennedy's planned departure is given in either article.

I don't see how else Oswald would have known the time to be later than that.

then again the bag in Wesley's car that morning was not big enough to hold the rifle anyway... Oswald didn't seem involved in the timing needs of the assassination at all that day.

David. I think that within your post is a very important key. : Irrespective of Oswalds role, the basic suggestion re timing would apply to any assassin/s. I understand a local public radio station ran an ongoing update of the processions location. The weather ''downtown'' was checked from Lovefield by the SS in deciding to put on or not the bubbletop. Kennedy made a few unexpected stops like getting out and greeting a group of schoolchildren. So there was an unpredictability to the whole thing that only radio communication could deal with. I suppose the q of who were known to be in constant update. There could be 4 sources perhaps. The SS band, the police band, the public radio, a fourth party, independent or tapping. I understand that HD Holmes with 4-5 unnamed persons stationed directly opposite the snipers nest had a radio on as well as phone links. The SS and the police and the radio broadcast. Which would be the most up to date? Would one have to be involved in the transmissions to be part of the conspiracy? I feel there is something to be gained from exploring this and more along this line. It in itself could be the thing that could be agreed on as being a strong indicator that the assassin/s did indeed have confedererates.

thanks John... to elaborate a bit

If we can show that LHO was not on an assassination timeline (bring the rifle, hide it, get to a spot to shoot him, shoot him, etc...) all these other facts about the rifle and pistol are moot. He'd have to either sit and wait at the 6th floor window starting as early as 11:45 (plane was supposed to land at 11:30 and be at the Trade Mart by 12:15)... know exactly when the plane landed and when it was expected to pass the TSBD and ALSO know that no one would be up there at the time.... be in communication with those that did know and would insure no one was in his way.... or not be involved at all, not care when the limo was passing, and be seen anywhere BUT the 6th floor as late as 12:25....

You decide:

We know men were claimed to be seen between 12-12:15 at various windows on either end of the 6th floor, one on the 7th and the black guys on the 5th. The motorcade did not even leave Love field until 11:55, so for there to be 3 teams - in place - there needed to be unobstructed access to the GK, Sniper's Lair (if a shoot came from there), Dal-Tex, RR yard, etc... And these people had to be aware of the expected landing time of the plane - as you said there was an ongoing radio report of the flight and motorcade procession yet I can't imagine using that as the basis for setting up the assassination timeline...

We do know that people were told to leave the GK/Overpass area well before 12pm (Altgens and Arnold(if there))

Bowers sees the 2 men at the GK fence by 12:20 after the car circles the lot - they know somehow to be there at that time and they must know they are safe from interference... isn't there a DPD uniformed officer there chasing people away?

There is someone in the SW 6th floor building going in and out of the shadows as well as an older, thin Negro according to A. Rowland at the SE 6th floor window.

and all this time Williams says he was alone up there until 12:15 at least... Jack Dougherty had also been on the 6th floor till after 12:20 and saw no one... ?!?!

I found this testimony a little strange in that you'd think there would have been a number of radios on, in and around the TSBD, with people checking on the progess of the parade yet only when Mrs. Reid calls her husband does she find out the parade is late.

I don't recall anyone else mentioning a radio braodcast while in the TSBD... any help?

Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.

Some other food for thought on this 38 min timeline (limo leaves Love Field and the assassination at 12:33)

http://karws.gso.uri...ternalComm.html

Then, there is the mishandling of the Carolyn Arnold statements. Taken together, the two support her later claims that she saw LHO on the first floor at 12:25; making it unlikely that he went up five flights of stairs and ran over to the window to shoot JFK. In her hand written statement she told the FBI she saw LHO "at about 12:25 PM" (Weisberg Post Mortem, p. 333 citing Commission Document 706(d)). The FBI retyped her statement to read that she LHO "a few minutes before 12:15 PM" (Roffman, p. 185, citing CD 5:4l). On page 276 Roffman notes the dishonestly of the Warren Report which claimed "that it knew of no Book Depository employee who claimed to have seen Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30 on the day of the assassination."

British journalist and author Anthony Summers provides the following summary of his 1978 interview with Mrs. Arnold:

When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came before I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment. . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water.

Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch on the second floor lunchroom. ”Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.”

ref. Crossfire, p 49; Conspiracy - Who Killed Kennedy?, p 108

http://www.mtgriffit...ments/hasty.htm

A few minutes later, Bill Shelley and Charles Givens saw Oswald on the first floor, at around 11:50. Then, ten minutes later, Eddie Piper also saw Oswald on the first floor. Moreover, as mentioned, Williams began eating his lunch on the sixth floor at right around noon and didn't leave the floor until around 12:15 or 12:20. Since Oswald was seen by Piper on the first floor at noon, and since Williams was on the sixth floor at noon to eat his lunch, the only time Oswald could have gone up to the sniper's nest was after Williams came back downstairs at 12:15 or 12:20. The motorcade was scheduled to pass in front of the TSBD at 12:25. As it turned out, the motorcade was running five minutes late, but Oswald could not have known that. Arriving at the sniper's window at 12:16 at the earliest, Oswald would have been hard-pressed to build (or finish building) the sniper's nest, arrange the boxes next to the window as a gun rest, and then reassemble the rifle. One witness, Arnold Rowland, insisted he saw a man with a rifle--an assembled rifle--on the sixth floor at 12:15 or 12:16, and Rowland said nothing about seeing any boxes being moved in the sniper's nest.

Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?

Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o’clock.

Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o’clock?

Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him-“It’s about

http://www.ratical.o.../PG/PGchp7.html

Jarman and Norman appeared together on the first floor again, about ten minutes after stepping outside. Because the crowds in front of the Depository were so large, the two men went up to the fifth floor at 12:20 or 12:25. To do this, they walked around to the back of the building, entering on the first floor through the rear door and taking the elevator up five stories (3H202).

Obviously, Oswald could not have told the police that "Junior" and a short Negro employee were together on the first floor unless he had seen this himself.[3] For Oswald to have witnessed Jarman and Norman in this manner, he had to have been on the first floor between either 12:10 and 12:15 or 12:20 and 12:25. The fact that Oswald was able to relate this incident is cogent evidence that he was in fact on the first floor at one or both of these times. If he was on the sixth floor, as the Commission believes, then it was indeed a remarkable coincidence that out of all the employees, Oswald picked the two who were on the first floor at the time he said, and together as he described. Since this is a remote possibility that warrants little serious consideration, I am persuaded to conclude that Oswald was on the first floor at some time between 12:10 and 12:25, which is consistent with the previously cited testimony of Eddie Piper.[4]

Now, let us revisit the statements made by Bonnie Ray Williams. First of all, when the WC asked Williams about his FBI statement, he denied telling the FBI that he left the sixth floor at 12:05 (4:103). And, when the Commission asked Williams to give an approximate time for his departure from the sixth floor, he said he left at around 12:20 (4:103). Former WC member Gerald Ford said Williams left the sixth floor "just minutes before the Presidential motorcade reached the corner of Houston and Elm"

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.

Not the first or only time the FBI recollection/recording of witness statements wound up being in favor of LHO did it as opposed to what was said.

Did they ever make an error in recording a statement that FAVORED LHO?

edit: It has been brought to my attention that the poster is probably a phony as it appears to have their arrival at Love Field that day as the image - which would be impossible. the VIP luncheon invite is still up for discussion - since it was a fundraiser, there is no reason to assume a noon start for luch was not correct and that the invite is legit... DJ

For all that to work... doesn't that little paper bag in the back seat of the car need to be MUCH BIGGER than anyone says it was to hold a broken down rifle?

How did the bag even get back to the Paines to begin with... if Oswald made it Wed/Thur there are not enough fold marks on it to have been made small enough

that Wesley would not notice it on the ride home... or was it made well before hand (even though it does not match the paper at work)

And finally... given that Oswald does not know the motorcade is late by 20-30mins minutes (announcements for the luncheon range from 12 to 12:30) we are supposed to believe he waits until AFTER the earliest announced time for the luncheon to actual begin, to make his way up to the 6th floor, assemble the rifle, etc... ?

Once again, facts are nice but without context and perspective to other facts they are meaningless. There are so many, "Even if's" this, that or the other happens... there are enough other facts that contradict the conclusions of the isolated fact you are discussing.

Oswald was seen after 12:10 and as much as 12:20 on the 2nd floor. He had no idea when the motorcade was passing HIS window.

DJ

Facts without perspective and context are meaningless...

Wow, are you a waste of time.

No, I don't need to "take the next step" . I make ZERO claims about the entry wound nor will I. I have stated that quite clearly. IF YOU want to speculate, by all means be my guest. I'll decline.

I'll deal directly with that which can be proven via fact, thank you very much.

Craig, you make very specific claims about the entry wound by promoting the FACT (in your opnion) that the jacket and shirt were 3+ inches out of alignment with the entry would in the back - otherwise why make the claim to begin with? Laying the jacket/shirt flat directly implies an entry location that is 3+ inches higher than the autopsy photos and description - again, otherwise why bring it up... just for the sake of arguing?

Do you believe a bullet created the holes in the jacket and shirt?

Do you believe a bullet caused the wound in JFK's back?

did you honestly spend 20 pages simply arguing that there was a fold at the top of JFK's jacket? and that this assertion carried no claim with it??

If that is really what all this has been about you're an even greater waste of time than orignally believed.

When you're ready to actually make a claim based on these FACTS of yours, start a thread so you can be picked apart like you try to do to others.

You're simply a critic

Those who can -- do. Those who can't -- criticize.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15981&view=findpost&p=199005

Rather than posting it twice

How long has this been going on Craig? Answer me that one.

On how many threads? Answer that one.

For what end? You are a dyed in the wool WC upholder in every aspect who has never been able to show one instance where you went the other way.

Varnell is convinced he is right and you both talk past each other. Which would be ok if it was on one thread. Its not.

Why don't the mods dedicate one thread to this? Seems easy to me. Then everyone would know where to go and not to go.

This is embarrassing and cumbersome for everyone else. Except you two, who never get tired of playing in the sandbox.

Varnell can be as convinced as he wants but the hard facts simply blow him out of the water. This is really simple Jim and you can ask Varnell to end it once and for all...

Just show us a fabric arrangement that can produce the betzner artifact that is not a 3+ inch horizontal fold...and works in the correct lighting as seen in Betzner and that arguement is over.

How more simple can that be?

So WHY are YOU not pushing your PAL Varnell to simply prove his position works. It's not hard Jim. Why not lean on him to actually prove me wrong or him right.

BTW, try not to be a hypocrite...it just makes you look more foolish....

Simple proof of concept photos will do the trick.

So snap to it Jim. Instead of complaining why not actully DO somehting?

As I tend to focus on the images more than Jim and Varnell let me take a stab at it

A few illustrations and a request for a real answer from Mr. Lamson

This is F5 with the shirt hole, jacket hole and scapula added.

For the sake of this discussion, we will accept the F5 photo and the identification of the bullet hole on the body as being correct – okay?

The holes in the Jacket and Shirt line up with the hole in his back as well as to each other.

Craig seems to assert that BOTH the Jacket and Shirt have ridden up 3+ inches or 7.62+ centimeters. This suggests either 1)that the holes we have in the Jacket and Shirt should line up to be 3+ inches LOWER than the hole in his back; or 2)the hole in his back must be 3+ inches higher than the holes in the clothing.

If Craig could please tell us which of the three arrows in Croft represents the entry (since the fold is the SAME in each photo per Craig) that best lines up with the holes in the Jacket, Shirt and Body maybe we’d be in a position to actually discuss something of value.

If the Pink line, based on the Ryberg illustration, then the folded jacket has no bearing as this is above the fold.

If the Yellow line then we should have 3 holes in both the Jacket and Shirt as this is directly thru the fold

If the Green line, is the angle steep enough to extend back to the 6th floor and why do we not see the holes in the jacket and shirt 3+ inches lower than the hole in the body?

At this point I am NOT disputing the 3+ inch fold - accepting that as truth for a moment Craig, you need to take the next step and explain how that translates to the physical evidence and autopsy photo as shown in the top composite.

Hey there Craig

GREAT to hear from you.

Keep up the GREAT work.

You are truly an inspiration to us all.

thanks

DJ

What's wonderful is that people like Mr. Lamson will continue to infuriate anyone who thinks and posts rationally.

Not if you don't let them.

David, I see you have been a Forum member for six years, but it seems you have been much more active posting in the

last year or so. You're well-versed, well-spoken, and a very good critical thinker. The good points you often make

speak to that.

Although it sounds like I am singling you out, I am really directing these remarks to some of the members that "that

think and post rationally," as referenced you above.

Why would anyone that knows and still cares about President Kennedy's murder 47 long years after it occurred, and still

has the fires of curiosity and understanding burning, want to spend their time debating someone who brags about knowing

little (and by their own admission, could care less) about the assassination of an American president?

Some members design their posts to infuriate others. To become infuriated is playing the game on their terms. (I'm just

coining a phrase; I realize that studying President Kennedy's assassination is not a game, but in the vacuum of this Forum

it sometimes seems that way.)

Switching gears David, what do you know about Maggie Field?

Michael -

Thanks for the kind words... been on vacation at the beaches in Atlantic City and other than reading "Brothers" have taken a break from reading and dealing with the likes of the Lamson's out here.

For years I read and posted on Lancer as well as read/lurked here but had some problems with my sign on and they were not accepting new members so I was in a Catch-22. Thru discussions with Larry Hancock who was gracious enough to contact John for me - I was able to get back to contributing what I can where I can.

I have not read each post on this thread since my break yet can see from the following posts just on this page Craig remains himself thru and thru.

He has no answers, only arguments - baseless at that - so I do indeed heed your advice and warning to the other posters and not bother with him any longer.

Mike Williams and I started out that way, and I have no problem being disagreed with as long as the arguments make sense and are presented without personal attack, neither of which Craig seems capable of doing.

JFK and the Unspeakable is next on my must read list - I am interested in how this and "Brothers" interrelates, contradicts and supports each other.

Maybe instead of discussing folds he can explain why the Commission had such a hard time with how a frontal shot was accomplished from Oswald's supposed location. That is if he's read the executive session transcripts - yet given they are a factual record of what these men thought in what they supposed was "private".... I amsure he will dismiss their concerns as easily as he does all the other "facts" of the case.

sincerely

DJ

ps... I am not familiar with Maggie Field... but will be by the end of the day, thanks