William Plumlee

The first attempts on assassination of Castro were planed by the CIA in July of 1960. There was a security breach on this planning operation and the details of this meeting has remained classified for a number of years. Has anyone out there heard or read anything about these early plans to assassination Castro? Frank Bender (also knows as Gerry Doller, and Fravel Brown were two CIA case officer who attended this early secret meetings with Manuel Artime. Does anyone know anything about this? Any help would be appreciated. I think this is an important link which could lead into new information concerning the assassination of Kennedy. Thanks P.S... I just found something on JMARC. I think this should be of interest to anyone really interested concerning the Kenedy assassination: This has been missed for a number of years (or should I say hidden in the black hole of government documents. I share this with the forum FWIW. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=4 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=5 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 "To be destroyed upon completion of Project" - yet never destroyed...heavy! http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1 Peter. You, Jim, and I, talked about this many years ago. I said there was paper on that operational plan, but nobody believed me, because it could not be documented..., well here we are over seventeen years later and it pops up. It was supose to be filed in the old file 13... it was to sensitive for even the FBI to know about, and you and Jim also. I see it as a lead into the JFK mess because some of the names cross check with Dallas. (not as assins, but as Abort Team members)

I have exchanged information and have answered questions to the best of my ability and now I would like some help on a matter. I am not sure if the following has been declassified as yet.... and at this late date I don't really care. It has been so long ago I don't think it really matters anymore... and too, I am past my seven years on the QC-2 type clearance. However, the information I ask does concern, to some degree, the Dallas Cubans and Dallas operations of 63. Perhaps indirectly to the JFK assassination, so I remain on topic for this forum. I would like if Forum members would exchange information with me if they have any information in reference to an investigation known as JMARC(-K, I think) It is not and operation but in reference to an investigation of July or August of 1960. It is the first reference (1960) to a CIA plan to assassination Fidel Castro. It was the first planning and meeting held in a Motel room in Miami (The Resort Hotel, 2nd floor; Rm 201 I think.., if I remember right. It was near the University of Miami) This was a few years before John Roselli was recruited to help in that assassination plan to kill Castro (62-63) of which the Church Committee (74) held their investigations. Those present at this early meetings, were (on the first meeting.., there were two meetings, possible three I think) Lado Fernandez..., brother of Cecil who lived in Dallas on Travis St. aka "The Dallas Cuban" Ravel Brown...., CIA case officer. Washington DC Caltex Oil and Gas Exploration, employee (CIA cover; Indo-China; field coordinator aviation section; my early case officer) Wm B Kent...., CIA case officer Miami Station Jerry Doller (the German) CIA case officer; also known as Tony Bender,aka Frank Bender, and Robert Klien.(bender also an early case officer of mine) John Smith.... Johnny CIA case officer also known as Larry Allen, and PICO or Poco? (gun-running 1959 FBI 104) Lionel or Lennie (code name) cut out Faucher, Jerry friend of John Farentello. (Later friend of John Roselli) There were two pilots at those meetings: Wm H Pearson (Buck) CIA Miami Station code name "Eagle" Manuel Rojas a previous Regina Cuban Air Cargo pilot; Contract pilot for the CIA; code name "Raven". Bender was very upset because some of the pilots (about 20 or 30) had not been accounted for and were not in place and the CIA had not cleared them to fly missions. Pete Ray, Crispin and Gonzalez.., first names I can not remember, were some of those pilots which were out of place. Two of these 20 pilots had rooms at the Mc Allister Hotel and The Green Mansions, near Miami Airport. These places were known as safe houses ( theses pilots were, "on the farm"=waiting for instructions and a mission) These men were not mentioned at the meeting, but Frank Bender was very upset and wanted to know why they were not in place. (note; Rip Robertson was a few months later in the stages of planning for the upcoming BoP, he was not at these meeting) The meeting was not about these pilots but about the plan or how to launch a team into Cuban to kill Castro. This meeting had been compromised because one of the personal told a Spanish woman at the motel bar that Castro would be, "done away with real soon".. This woman worked security for Fidel Castro, a spy. Soon after the FBI intercepted traffic which led to this woman and it brought the CIA into the mix and the plans were cut off at that point. Jake Easterline and Howard Hunt made reports to that effect and those reports are still classified. Hunt and Easterline attended the second meeting at the Resort and the matter was shifted to Manuel Artime of one of the organizations who the CIA was friendly with. This is rough recap background information from my memory. I was one of the pilots they were looking for and I did attend one of these early meetings. Any information would be appreciated. This is for one of my Chapters in my book ‘Deep Cover Shallow Graves' Chapter title 'The Raven Flys", release date October 2008 Point being: There were early attempts planned by the CIA to be made on Castro even before JFK became President and continued until he became President. The talk about assassinating Castro was started and planned by the Cubans and the Mafia as early as March of 1960. There is a full CIA report which I think has or is about to be released on this. Any help on this JMARC investigation would be appreciated. Thanks. This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Today, 10:57 PM Tosh, Dude Sadly I cannot be of help re; your request above. Would like to see full CIA report when available, re; 1960 plans to kill Castro. It was early 1963 before I got an official hint. So in an anti-Castro speech at Fluor Corp. in Los Angeles,Ca that year, I predicted "Castro will be gone within six months". Until later..... Signed; The Older Guy. Hey Old Man. I did just find something on that. I posted the links on the other Thread "Early Castro plans". Someone at the Pentagon directed me to the information and file numbers. In the spring of 1959 I was arrested for gunrunning in Ohio and the FBI grilled me... I had a cover story and I gave the FBI false and a very confusing story in hopes of throwing them off the sanctioned operation being conducted from Miami. The FBI bought the story and they in turn said I was a "Crazy" or something to that effect. (documented... that I'm a nut and gave false information... I'm sure you know that drill.) ( The CIA said Thank You for that) If you look at the link I posted you will see the names of some of my case officers at the time (1959-60) John Smith, Larry Allen and a few others. The CIA (my case officer ( 03-4-1959) told me to lay low and act dumb and fabricate a story in order to protect Sutter (?) and they would go away... I did and they did.... You can read about that deal on the MF site under William Robert Plumlee, 105 files. I was arrested in Ohio with a plane load of arms bound for Cuba, Johnny Smith was one of my case officers as well as Larry Allen, both close friends of Fravel Brown another case officer of mine who later went to S/E Asia and headed up the aviation section of which I was also associated with as a pilot. (that was a little later (61-62, I think) Anyway I just wanted to share the background with you. The "Security breach" of July 1960 at the University Resort Hotel meeting I was there and that is the first I heard of attempts to assassinate Castro... July 1960. three meetings... I was to be one of the pilots to take that crew into Cuba. Seems the research community has missed this little gold nugget... sometimes I wonder if its not on purpose. Been a long time "old Man" and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Were not "Spring Chickens" anymore. Right? P.S. Hey Harry. Do you want to be in my book, "Deep Cover; Shallow Graves? I have a spot for you... ???. Perhaps a whole damn chapter.... or another book..... Take care... .... I have just pissed some people off... you know what I mean?

The first attempts on assassination of Castro were planed by the CIA in July of 1960. There was a security breach on this planning operation and the details of this meeting has remained classified for a number of years. Has anyone out there heard or read anything about these early plans to assassination Castro? Frank Bender (also knows as Gerry Doller, and Fravel Brown were two CIA case officer who attended this early secret meetings with Manuel Artime. Does anyone know anything about this? Any help would be appreciated. I think this is an important link which could lead into new information concerning the assassination of Kennedy. Thanks P.S... I just found something on JMARC. I think this should be of interest to anyone really interested concerning the Kenedy assassination: This has been missed for a number of years (or should I say hidden in the black hole of government documents. I share this with the forum FWIW. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=4 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1 I would like to thank members of the Pentagon and its staff at JCS for their help in pointing me to the file number of which I was looking for in my research. This is the meeting concerning the early Castro assassination plots to kill Castro: I logged in "JAMAC; Security Breach" in varios search engines and the following links came up on the MF site. Seems the reference documents I have been looking for and ASKING FOR HELP from forum members have been declassified recently. References to JMAC and Fravel Brown: and (Johnney Smith, also ref; with Lary Allen found in the Plumlee; FBI- 105 file of 1959, before the security breach meeting of 1960..., declassified 1981) THE BENDER GROUP http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=4 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

The first attempts on assassination of Castro were planed by the CIA in July of 1960. There was a security breach on this planning operation and the details of this meeting has remained classified for a number of years. Has anyone out there heard or read anything about these early plans to assassination Castro? Frank Bender (also knows as Gerry Doller, and Fravel Brown were two CIA case officer who attended this early secret meetings with Manuel Artime. Does anyone know anything about this? Any help would be appreciated. I think this is an important link which could lead into new information concerning the assassination of Kennedy. Thanks P.S... I just found something on JMARC. I think this should be of interest to anyone really interested concerning the Kenedy assassination: This has been missed for a number of years (or should I say hidden in the black hole of government documents. I share this with the forum FWIW. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=4 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=5 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

I have exchanged information and have answered questions to the best of my ability and now I would like some help on a matter. I am not sure if the following has been declassified as yet.... and at this late date I don't really care. It has been so long ago I don't think it really matters anymore... and too, I am past my seven years on the QC-2 type clearance. However, the information I ask does concern, to some degree, the Dallas Cubans and Dallas operations of 63. Perhaps indirectly to the JFK assassination, so I remain on topic for this forum. I would like if Forum members would exchange information with me if they have any information in reference to an investigation known as JMARC(-K, I think) It is not and operation but in reference to an investigation of July or August of 1960. It is the first reference (1960) to a CIA plan to assassination Fidel Castro. It was the first planning and meeting held in a Motel room in Miami (The Resort Hotel, 2nd floor; Rm 201 I think.., if I remember right. It was near the University of Miami) This was a few years before John Roselli was recruited to help in that assassination plan to kill Castro (62-63) of which the Church Committee (74) held their investigations. Those present at this early meetings, were (on the first meeting.., there were two meetings, possible three I think) Lado Fernandez..., brother of Cecil who lived in Dallas on Travis St. aka "The Dallas Cuban" Ravel Brown...., CIA case officer. Washington DC Caltex Oil and Gas Exploration, employee (CIA cover; Indo-China; field coordinator aviation section; my early case officer) Wm B Kent...., CIA case officer Miami Station Jerry Doller (the German) CIA case officer; also known as Tony Bender,aka Frank Bender, and Robert Klien.(bender also an early case officer of mine) John Smith.... Johnny CIA case officer also known as Larry Allen, and PICO or Poco? (gun-running 1959 FBI 104) Lionel or Lennie (code name) cut out Faucher, Jerry friend of John Farentello. (Later friend of John Roselli) There were two pilots at those meetings: Wm H Pearson (Buck) CIA Miami Station code name "Eagle" Manuel Rojas a previous Regina Cuban Air Cargo pilot; Contract pilot for the CIA; code name "Raven". Bender was very upset because some of the pilots (about 20 or 30) had not been accounted for and were not in place and the CIA had not cleared them to fly missions. Pete Ray, Crispin and Gonzalez.., first names I can not remember, were some of those pilots which were out of place. Two of these 20 pilots had rooms at the Mc Allister Hotel and The Green Mansions, near Miami Airport. These places were known as safe houses ( theses pilots were, "on the farm"=waiting for instructions and a mission) These men were not mentioned at the meeting, but Frank Bender was very upset and wanted to know why they were not in place. (note; Rip Robertson was a few months later in the stages of planning for the upcoming BoP, he was not at these meeting) The meeting was not about these pilots but about the plan or how to launch a team into Cuban to kill Castro. This meeting had been compromised because one of the personal told a Spanish woman at the motel bar that Castro would be, "done away with real soon".. This woman worked security for Fidel Castro, a spy. Soon after the FBI intercepted traffic which led to this woman and it brought the CIA into the mix and the plans were cut off at that point. Jake Easterline and Howard Hunt made reports to that effect and those reports are still classified. Hunt and Easterline attended the second meeting at the Resort and the matter was shifted to Manuel Artime of one of the organizations who the CIA was friendly with. This is rough recap background information from my memory. I was one of the pilots they were looking for and I did attend one of these early meetings. Any information would be appreciated. This is for one of my Chapters in my book ‘Deep Cover Shallow Graves' Chapter title 'The Raven Flys", release date October 2008 Point being: There were early attempts planned by the CIA to be made on Castro even before JFK became President and continued until he became President. The talk about assassinating Castro was started and planned by the Cubans and the Mafia as early as March of 1960. There is a full CIA report which I think has or is about to be released on this. Any help on this JMARC investigation would be appreciated. Thanks. This post has been edited by William Plumlee: Today, 10:57 PM

I have exchanged information and have answered questions to the best of my ability and now I would like some help on a matter. I am not sure if the following has been declassified as yet.... and at this late date I don't really care. It has been so long ago I don't think it really matters anymore... and too, I am past my seven years on the QC-2 type clearance. However, the information I ask does concern, to some degree, the Dallas Cubans and Dallas operations of 63. Perhaps indirectly to the JFK assassination, so I remain on topic for this forum. I would like if Forum members would exchange information with me if they have any information in reference to an investigation known as JMARC(-K, I think) It is not and operation but in reference to an investigation of July or August of 1960. It is the first reference (1960) to a CIA plan to assassination Fidel Castro. It was the first planning and meeting held in a Motel room in Miami (The Resort Hotel, 2nd floor; Rm 201 I think.., if I remember right. It was near the University of Miami) This was a few years before John Roselli was recruited to help in that assassination plan to kill Castro (62-63) of which the Church Committee (74) held their investigations. Those present at this early meetings, were (on the first meeting.., there were two meetings, possible three I think) Lado Fernandez..., brother of Cecil who lived in Dallas on Travis St. aka "The Dallas Cuban" Ravel Brown...., CIA case officer. Washington DC Caltex Oil and Gas Exploration, employee (CIA cover; Indo-China; field coordinator aviation section; my early case officer) Wm B Kent...., CIA case officer Miami Station Jerry Doller (the German) CIA case officer; also known as Tony Bender,aka Frank Bender, and Robert Klien.(bender also an early case officer of mine) John Smith.... Johnny CIA case officer also known as Larry Allen, and PICO or Poco? (gun-running 1959 FBI 104) Lionel or Lennie (code name) cut out Faucher, Jerry friend of John Farentello. (Later friend of John Roselli) There were two pilots at those meetings: Wm H Pearson (Buck) CIA Miami Station code name "Eagle" Manuel Rojas a previous Regina Cuban Air Cargo pilot; Contract pilot for the CIA; code name "Raven". Bender was very upset because some of the pilots (about 20 or 30) had not been accounted for and were not in place and the CIA had not cleared them to fly missions. Pete Ray, Crispin and Gonzalez.., first names I can not remember, were some of those pilots which were out of place. Two of these 20 pilots had rooms at the Mc Allister Hotel and The Green Mansions, near Miami Airport. These places were known as safe houses ( theses pilots were, "on the farm"=waiting for instructions and a mission) These men were not mentioned at the meeting, but Frank Bender was very upset and wanted to know why they were not in place. (note; Rip Robertson was a few months later in the stages of planning for the upcoming BoP, he was not at these meeting) The meeting was not about these pilots but about the plan or how to launch a team into Cuban to kill Castro. This meeting had been compromised because one of the personal told a Spanish woman at the motel bar that Castro would be, "done away with real soon".. This woman worked security for Fidel Castro, a spy. Soon after the FBI intercepted traffic which led to this woman and it brought the CIA into the mix and the plans were cut off at that point. Jake Easterline and Howard Hunt made reports to that effect and those reports are still classified. Hunt and Easterline attended the second meeting at the Resort and the matter was shifted to Manuel Artime of one of the organizations who the CIA was friendly with. This is rough recap background information from my memory. I was one of the pilots they were looking for and I did attend one of these early meetings. Any information would be appreciated. This is for one of my Chapters in my book ‘Deep Cover Shallow Graves' Chapter title 'The Raven Flys", release date October 2008 Point being: There were early attempts planned by the CIA to be made on Castro even before JFK became President and continued until he became President. The talk about assassinating Castro was started and planned by the Cubans and the Mafia as early as March of 1960. There is a full CIA report which I think has or is about to be released on this. Any help on this JMARC investigation would be appreciated. Thanks. P.S. I forgot one important point. Barnard Baker, (Bernnie, later Watergate connected) was also it these 1960 JMAC meetings at the hotel [/b] Struges, Frank, also of Watergate fame, would also become part of this mix, although at a later date.

Here, here, a feather in your caps, to Gary too, and others taking invitory, many thanks for your notes, and sharing research. And keep an eye out for Mary Simm's box of papers and docs, as I have a feeling it is there, somewhere in the haystack. BK Bill I have a meeting in Dallas soon. Do you have any question you would like for me to ask?

John: As you know I take exception as to having GPH associated with Operation 40. He was in no way associated with OPS-40. Nor was he associated with CIA operations in any way shape or forum. Toney Bender was one of my case officers (documented) as well as Barns. Rip Robertson was also a close friend as well as Easterline and others. I was with it from the start as a pilot... or as GPH called me "...nothing but a bus jockey a wannabe...". Well time will prove truth and its happening now. Declassified documents are now coming forth which I think supports some of what I have said long ago. AND TOO, on this forum where I was called a xxxx by many; remember? GPH 'piggy backed' off others and their stories and inserted himself in them. Because he is dead I mean no disrespect, but facts are facts. It will take two lifetimes to undo what he did toward truth in this matter and others. The OPS 40 boys might not have been the best church goers, BUT I had to fly them to wherever they wanted to go or was sent. AND I damn sure had to get along with them.., especially the Cubans... some of them really did not like Gringos.

Jack. Why don't you put the same amount of labor and time into the South Knoll photo of the fork tree and Tom Wilson's work on that area? You have proven in the past that your one of the best at what you know about photography; and I think this would go a long way toward proving a very important point in relating to the assassination. (if there are two people there, as some have said and too, which you have said, Tom told you, "that he found two people there. If they are there, they were never interviewed by authorities. Why? We can still work together, can't we?... "Olive Branch". ?? I got an email back from Jim. are you interested? Tosh...I did all I could with the Cancellare photo. I know of no technique that I can use to enhance it further. Tom Wilson was the expert on this, and his findings are unfortunately lost to us apparently. Yes, Tom told me he found two people in the shadow of the tree. I could not duplicate his accomplishment. For what it's worth, I believe you were in the plaza. But having studied all photos taken that day, I do not trust any of them to be genuine. So if you were originally in the Cancellare photo, you may have been "retouched out" of the picture. I read your email from Marrs. Apparently there are two versions of the Roscoe wrist lump story. It was a part of my slide show long before I met you, having come from relatives of Roscoe. As I recall, the sawmill accident occurred in Arkansas, not too far from the Texas area Roscoe was from. The artillery accident is a later version I am not familiar with. When I showed you the wrist lump slide, my commentary was definitely the story told by relatives. It is really rather immaterial in the total scheme of things. Were you acquainted with Roscoe? Jack Yes Jack I knew him and he told me in Hawaii how he got the wrist bump. He said he got his arm caught in the breach and it broke his wrist. I assumed he got it in Hawaii on a training accident on the Island around 1959. I went to see you with Jim in hopes of getting you to work on the photo. I do not remember a slide show... but that is not important now. I have a Dallas PD lab team working on the photo. I have not wanted to get involved in the actual work because I am the subject in the photo and I felt if it was proven that two people were there and I had anything to do with the photo work it would not be credible evidence if and when that grand jury was going to be formed. I felt the work on the photo had to be done by independent sources. Peter got Tom involved and you know the rest of the story. (my point of view)

Jack. Why don't you put the same amount of labor and time into the South Knoll photo of the fork tree and Tom Wilson's work on that area? You have proven in the past that your one of the best at what you know about photography; and I think this would go a long way toward proving a very important point in relating to the assassination. (if there are two people there, as some have said and too, which you have said, Tom told you, "that he found two people there".., if they are there, they were never interviewed by authorities. Why? Perhaps this could be a solid project for someone. Of course I have a dog in that race. He has been running now for over forty years AND... I think he is about due for a win. We can still work together, can't we?... "Olive Branch". ?? I got an email back from Jim. are you interested?

Bill, the link works fine. Do you know when this operation first became known as "Red Cross"? No, I don't. But every ooperation has a code name. What did they call the Dealey Plaza operation? And many thanks for posting that article as I think it is very important and hope others get something out of it. BK Bill. You can find references to it in 'Deadly Secrets" by Wm Turner and Warren Hinckle, as well as "The Fish are Red". Operation TILT was the Code name given by the CIA. Brown changed it to 'Red Cross' because the TILT code name was still secret and all references were was still classified. The story on going in can be found in those books. I flew in to remove these people from Cuba, as well as two Russian defectors. Eddie Bayo was a friend. He did not come out. This has been brought up on this forum a few years ago, I think; but it went nowhere. Also there was an article written by Warren Hinckle, "The CIA's Secret Yacht War Against Castro" "City Magazine", San Francisco, CA. (copyright 1975; City Publishing Co. a Copala enterprize referenced to "The Flying Tiger" and the "Thour II". were two private Yachts used in that operation. note: Red Cross was the code name for a safe house on S/W 9th Ter, in Coral Gables, Florida. That was the place where you went to get medical attention in you needed it. Records were not kept there. It was an Apartment house. P.S. GPH was not associated in any way on any of this. FWIW Perhaps James could help on this. This was a picture taken just before we boarded the ThorII bound for Cuba. Operation TILT (brown's Red Cross) I hope this is the right one. Some of the pictres are not labeled and its from memory. I did not want it to come out so big. ????

Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Thanks for your reply. I do not remember your version of the bump on Roscoe's wrist. I got the sawmill version as I recall, from Roscoe's sister, long before I ever met you. Yes, we talked about the radio the DCM had, and the bulge under his jacket. I do not remember mentioning ANYTHING about south Texas and killings, and in fact know nothing about anything of that sort. I do not remember you mentioning your brother and family ties at any time, or if you did, it passed over my head. You DID call Novel's hairdo THE AGENCY FLIP, cause I didn't make it up. Jim and I commented on it. Thanks for your comments. Jack Well Jack I guess we remember it two different ways. Perhaps Jim Marrs could be of help if he would as to the Roscoe White and the lump on his wrist. I remember it one way and you the other. Perhaps he will remember it another way. Thats life. Why were we there at your place in the first place? Do you remember? Take care Jim brought you by to see my slide show. That's why you were there. I had a slide on the lump on Roscoe's wrist, and related what the sister said about it. What was the source of your version? Feel free to question Jim. You can reach him at therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com Jack Jack this is a reply from Jim: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:59:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Jim Marrs" <therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com> Add Mobile Alert Yahoo! DomainKeys has confirmed that this message was sent by yahoo.com. Learn more Subject: Re: Jack White To: "Robert Plumlee" <wplumlee2006@yahoo.com> Howdy Redbird, I am in a total rush as I just flew in from a Nevada convention and must fly back out for LA. But as I recall the story on Roscoe White, his "bump" was from injuring himself while training on a cannon (howitzer?) in the military and that it never healed properly. There is a distinctive lump on the wrist of the man in the famouse "Backyard" photos reportedly of Oswald. I also recall that you said the dark man in Dealey Plaza may have been the man you knew as "Gator," but I do not recall you saying it was him. I will be back next week. Let me know how your meeting with Billie Sol goes. I feel sure he knows more than he has yet publicly admitted. Best regards, Titmouse ----- Original Message ---- From: Robert Plumlee <wplumlee2006@yahoo.com> To: Jim Marrs <therealjimmarrs@yahoo.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 12:51:18 AM Subject: Jack

Plumlee photo 3-30-02 Inside view of Rambler: Before Rambler was moved. Jay Harrison photo taken by Tosh Plumlee 03-30-02

Plumlee photo 3-30-02 Inside view of Rambler:

WELL! Little Lady. You just knocked my socks off: I did not know this information had been released let alone on the MF site. Thanks. It seems some of my FBI documents concerning gun running tie in with what you have found. I glance briefly at the links and I now know who this person is. He was CIA, as I and we were on some of the same type operations. The PT boats, explosives, airplanes from Maranda (Tucson AZ) BoP planning and my friend Rip and Hawkins..., as well as the Washington connections... ( alot there if you know how to read it. You will be back to Dallas before long on your name search. I am in a tight place for time right now, but wanted to get this to you. Your on to something. I will help if I can.... remember we used CODE and CUT-OUT names on those Florida OPS. I notice some names I went into or flew them into Cuba. Your into DEEP OPS on this gun running mater of 1959-61. I will get back to you soon... and after I have had time to review the documents and make a few notes... Take care... Its about time to have your thread to go into never never, land... keep it alive and I think I might have something for you. During that timeframe the FBI was really confused as to what was really going down. note: Philis Green I knew as well as Gary Dean Bearing. I lived on Elizabeth St 3314 in Dallas. Travis was the next Street over. Johnney Farrentello live on Buna Vista across from the Farrentellos. Jery Faucher lived on Travis a few blocks from Elizabeth and Cole Park. I worked for Delta for a few months earlier where I met Philis. I also worked for Southwest Airmotive at Love Field... boy it all comes togather Gary Dean used to go with Candy Barr and hung out at Ruby's Club. Waters also was in this LOOP. were back to Texas ???? Jerry Schofiled was a Contintal Airline Capt and flew DC-3. He got me the job at Southwest Aero Charter and Mountain States Aviation (CIA front Companies of the time) We shiped guns and explosives to Dodge Island near Miami before the BoP of 61 and after (1959-63). got to run but I'll be back..., Take care. and hang in there.

Francisca: This not meant to offend you. I consider you a very good researcher. You can take the following for whats its worth. : I told this source what I thought about this post when he was alive. I told forum members also: THE Following is PURE BS. from an old thread of GPH: ------------------- "... Jim Lesar, Esq. is the highest rated FOIA expert in this community, and he might well agree that the good judge should have petitioned for a "Vaughan Index" while the matter was still in the "Administrative Law" arena. As for Capehart, we knew him as "George Damon" during 1962. The NARA FBI files [both "302s" & "LHMs"] describe him as a transient gun dealer. He first showed up amidst our Missile Crisis operations during the Summer of 1962, which automatically made him suspect. He arrived at the doorstep of our "Federicos" safehouse on NW 6th Ave., driving a gaudy white Cadillac convertible; with the top down of course. [Tom Dunkin mentions having to sleep in a car outside Federico's one night] Damon got to the point quickly, in his, what I then thought then, was a Texas, not "Okie" twang. He had guns for us, but we would have to run a "special" mission with these weapons before we could use them elsewhere. When warned that the local cops & ATTU were "coming-down-heavy" on gun-runners, he pulled out a brand new business card with the name of a Justice Department official embossed thereon, along with the usual color DOJ seal. He stated more than once that anytime he was stopped by Feds, he simply displayed one of these cards, and told the agents to make the call from a secure telephone -- which quickly caused them to ride off into the sunset !! When I stated that this wouldn't work with local cops, he said that he didn't exhibit the card, but simply stonewalled them, or bailed himself out of the "vagrancy" charge; but if a ranking cop entered the picture, he would direct him to call the Miami FBI/FO for further info. This routinely caused his immediate release and the return of his impounded convertible "Canoe". Manolo Reboso stated [at the Banak Lumber Company "cover" office] that he had seen Damon at Hickory Hill more than once, and that folks there considered him to be a quite reckless "wild-card" -- but in Spanish he used "rienda suelta" [loose reined]; and that we should be careful in dealing with this "Yonny". Years later, when infrequently watching "Starsky & Hutch", the actor David Soul would remind me of this clown. We never heard anything on him after 1962, and it was the FOIA releases which reminded us of this one of the many strange dudes-about-town of the era. Cheers, GPH ...". Tosh, no offence taken. Not knowing much about this subject I like to check things out on my own and see what can be found in available documents etc, not to say that I don't believe you or anyone else's word on the matter. If you understand me. Francesca: Don't worry about offending me. I am glad to see someone research a subject and at least try to document or find the document trail which could establish a FACT and not an OPINION, or speculation. You keep doing what your doing and I will help when and if I can. The last thing I want to do is mislead anyone as I recall matters from my memory.

The Gold Dust was another "drop place" not sure if it was used as a contact place. I believe this place was north of the Mc Allister, or closer perhaps to the airport, which is west of the Mc Allister... I THINK Flagger ran East West and Biscanne ran North South.. Its been awhile. I will read the documents you have found and perhaps they will jog my memory. Keep in mind that the CIA did have personal infiltrating known groups in hopes of shutting them down because some of the independent groups were causing the US government alarm and compromising agents and operatives. One of these groups was the one GPH had started and mention, which was not associated in any way with CIA operations of the time. Sometimes these CIA undercover operatives would take on the coat of being connected to the criminal world so as to gather information for the CIA and that information would be turned over to the FBI to build a case.., and take them off the street. GPH at one point was a paid informant, known as a CI working for the higest bider which happened to be the FBI ( Confidental Informant) Perhaps this Damon could have been one of these CIA operatives. (I speculate) I do remember a place used by the CIA "Action Officer" Miami Station, not far from the Mc Allister on Biscanne around 15th Street or 19th street (not sure) I think that place was north of the Mc Allister. The CIA did pay a lot of money to gather inside information on these groups that were springing up everyday. In Miami from the years 1957 through 1964 anyone who had a boat or airplane or had been in the military would start a "mercenary type operation" and claim it was a governmen authorized mission. (now this is from memory and I know if I am wrong then I will never hear the last of it and that will be used to prove I don't know what I am talking about. When I find time I will take a look at the MF documents you found. Perhaps something there will jog me a little..

This is the car after we cut it loose from the tree at the storage place. Thats Jay Harrison with his back to the camara. He did not like to have his picture taken.

This is the Nash Rambler Jay Harrison had in storage for over ten years. I took these pictures on 3-30-02 before we (Jay and I ) moved it to my daughter's and her husbands farm near Lockhart. I have other pictures as well as Dawn. There are Mexico permits still pasted on this car as well as other info. Photos taken by William R (Tosh) Plumlee on 3-30-2002 at Austin Texas

Bill, the link works fine. Do you know when this operation first became known as "Red Cross"? No, I don't. But every ooperation has a code name. What did they call the Dealey Plaza operation? And many thanks for posting that article as I think it is very important and hope others get something out of it. BK Bill. You can find references to it in 'Deadly Secrets" by Wm Turner and Warren Hinckle, as well as "The Fish are Red". Operation TILT was the Code name given by the CIA. Brown changed it to 'Red Cross' because the TILT code name was still secret and all references were was still classified. The story on going in can be found in those books. I flew in to remove these people from Cuba, as well as two Russian defectors. Eddie Bayo was a friend. He did not come out. This has been brought up on this forum a few years ago, I think; but it went nowhere. Also there was an article written by Warren Hinckle, "The CIA's Secret Yacht War Against Castro" "City Magazine", San Francisco, CA. (copyright 1975; City Publishing Co. a Copala enterprize referenced to "The Flying Tiger" and the "Thour II". were two private Yachts used in that operation. note: Red Cross was the code name for a safe house on S/W 9th Ter, in Coral Gables, Florida. That was the place where you went to get medical attention in you needed it. Records were not kept there. It was an Apartment house. P.S. GPH was not associated in any way on any of this. FWIW

Like you, Otto, I'm more a reader than a poster. I try to contribute what I can, but I can't compete with the heavyweights on here. However, I can tell you what the problem is lately.... Frustration. This subject has been studied and studied and studied over and over for over 40 years and there is still no clear picture of who/what/why. New discoveries are rare and old evidence is being looked at for the bazillionth time. Things are being seen that aren't there. Simple typos and mistakes are looked at as being part of the sinister plan. The most mundane of subjects are being hashed and rehashed like they really mean something. I remember a thread with hundreds of responses concerning whether or not the shoe in the famous "Kennedy's leg sticking out of the limo on Stemmons" picture had been retouched or not. What difference does it make if it was or not? None. Please pardon the analogy, but what happens to a bunch of rats in a cage after the food has run out. They turn on each other. I think that is what's happening on here. If everyone just takes a step back, realizes this fact, and stop the personal attacks on their fellow researchers, things will improve. Remember, everyone has a right to their opinion. Please, boys and girls. You're the best researchers in the business. Can't we all just get along and work together towards the final truth? Just my 2 cent's worth. JWK JWK: Thanks. I second that. Its good to take a fresh look and too, to look at ourselves. I for one will try to do that. Its good advise and makes one focus if they will take it to heart. Thanks again...I needed that.

Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that. Thanks for your reply. I do not remember your version of the bump on Roscoe's wrist. I got the sawmill version as I recall, from Roscoe's sister, long before I ever met you. Yes, we talked about the radio the DCM had, and the bulge under his jacket. I do not remember mentioning ANYTHING about south Texas and killings, and in fact know nothing about anything of that sort. I do not remember you mentioning your brother and family ties at any time, or if you did, it passed over my head. You DID call Novel's hairdo THE AGENCY FLIP, cause I didn't make it up. Jim and I commented on it. Thanks for your comments. Jack Well Jack I guess we remember it two different ways. Perhaps Jim Marrs could be of help if he would as to the Roscoe White and the lump on his wrist. I remember it one way and you the other. Perhaps he will remember it another way. Thats life. Why were we there at your place in the first place? Do you remember? Take care

A young lady just emailed me this to me. She said she found it on. ??? she failed to mention where. ??? Looks like its a rough for someones book that I know nothing about. "... "...George De Mohrenschildt had nothing to do with the assassination, and Judyth never said he did. Oswald knew William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee. Plumlee and Oswald were part of a team attempting to stop JFK's assassination. Oswald may not have known Tosh Plumlee, but Dave Ferrie did, and Ferrie told Judyth that Oswald and Plumlee were part of an "abort team." No one told Judyth about Tosh Plumlee; she was merely speculating when she said that Oswald and Plumlee were part of an "abort team." Judyth has proof that Oswald was innocent of John F. Kennedy's assassination; she presented it to filmmaker Nigel Turner and he filmed it for his documentary, The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair". Judyth Vary Baker, reply, Sept 10, 2004: "After the assassination, Dave Ferrie told me Plumlee was involved in what he termed an 'abort team.' I had NEVER read Plumlee's testimony and did not know of its existence. Had it been published by 1999? . . . I am not as certain, but believe that Lee also, not long before the assassination, did use the same term, 'abort team.' He did indicate that he was NOT alone, and was being helped. . . . I reported that Lee was on an 'abort'team [sic], in 1999, and later was told that Plumlee described an 'abort team'---I do not remember it being said he was part of the team, but only that he described the team...[ellipse as in original] and being aware of that, I then concluded they were on the same team. It seemed to be a reasonable conclusion, but of course, Plumlee knows his exact and precise involvement, whereas I must simply guess from the fragments of which I was aware, as a witness." "Question: Were Lee and Plumlee aware of each other's missions, even if they were used for the same purpose? Would it be necessary for Plumlee to know about Lee, except on a need to know basis?" "Of course not." "I have the right to believe they were on the same team, but that doesn't mean everyone knew everyone who was involved. I know that there were backups for almost everything going on. . . . I have speculated, and grieve that many of my speculations have been reported as my recollection of hard facts or events. It's shameful to see deliberate misquotes as if my speculations were hard facts. I have the right to speculate where I do not know hard facts, just as anybody else." "So remember, where I wrote that Lee and Plumlee were on the 'same' abort team, that was reasonably based on what I knew then --and what I also learned in very recent years. Plumlee had no need to know a thing about Lee Oswald's involvement, unless Lee reached the plane, or if they managed to meet otherwise." "Then, it would have been an advantage for someone like Plumlee to be able to recognize Lee. It is, in fact, interesting that Tosh would have been able to recognize Lee Oswald, of all people, if Lee had come into contact with him that day, at Dealey Plaza or elsewhere. And having previously known Lee, that would have facilitated Tosh's ability to react to Lee's presence appropriately, I would think, should a meeting have occurred. For all I know, it might have been one of the reasons Tosh was selected to participate. Just my opinion. Just my speculation. Don't take this as more than that. So do you all have the same right." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, October 16, 2004 (responding to John McAdams): "She stated it [Oswald and Plumlee being part of an "abort team"] as speculation, John, not as fact." ...". Does anyone know about this and who it was that wrote it. I think it is in a book somewhere and post on a site. (my speculation)

Thats true Ron. However, there was more to it than just Texas and your right. And I did not mean to make light of it and cut others involvement out of the loop so to speak. JM/WAVE did have advance knowledge of the pending hit. As to their planning it 100% I say noway. I have always said... "information was received by MI, pentagon and past to others (JM/WAVE) and in turn a team was sent in to 'Abort". CIA acted as our logistical support only. If it was an inside WH job and planned from there with cut-outs in place and the Pentagon MI found out about it, that it was an inside job and they moved to stop it; I have to ask would that not come under the heading of ABORT? A project which was in the planning stages to kill a President with government personal loyal to LBJ from the military as well as JM/WAVE's CIA, ect.. Would be perfect cover. Throw a few Dallas Cubans in the pot, and ??? In short, I believe LBJ was stabbing JFK in the back, because he knew he was about to go to jail for a real long long time. LBJ's sins were about to catch up with him..., and he used various elements which were loyal to his cause within the military and the mafia to cover his deeds of old. They were the contacts who set the Texas Boys in motion. It did not take a hell of a lot to get those boys moving. LBJ snapped his fingers from the WH and those Boys jumped..., as they had before. Some of the 'Texas Good Ol'e Boys were also scattered through out government and the military including the WH if I am correct. I say it was planned out of the WH using Texas boys and blaming it on the Cubans and the Mafia. The Mafia had more to loose if it was blamed on them. In fact it was in their best interest to stop it, because an investigation would lead into the Castro assassination plots and the Liza Howard matter which they were acting as "Go Betweens". I think history, to some degree has proven that. LBJ had interst in N.O. as well as other places which could not surface because he would be impeached and go to jail, if they were found out. I think Bobby Kennedy was hot on thet trail of LBJ and his secret dealings..., and I think Billy Sol Estes knew of those inter dealings which help LBJ into the Senate of Texas, as well as into the WH. (I speculate... its as good as anything else I have read as to speculation on this forum) As Billy Sol Estes says " ...it is so simple".... perhaps this is his Ace in the Hole which has protected him all these years. He does know where all the bodies are buried as well as why they are there. IMO I agree almost totally with Tosh. But there was a little more to it than that. Jack Me too. But like our pal Jay Harrison used to say "LBJ killed JFK but he was not at the top of that pyramid" Dawn As you know Jay was right on. I sometimes think Jay did not know what he really had. We spent hours talking, even days and nights. Sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. I was astounded at his depth concerning Texas and Washington's connections of the time. Jack said something to me one day when Jim Marrs and I visited him concerning Rosco White along those lines and it shook me, because I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol. We quickly past over that and went into the DPD and how Roscoe got the lump on his wrist. I wanted to ask him more about his thoughts, but Jim was pressed for time (he had classes to teach) I think that was the time the south photo came up and the reason for going to see Jack. Tosh...what did I say that SHOOK YOU? The lump on Roscoe's wrist allegedly came from him breaking his wrist in a sawmill accident. One thing I remember you telling me was that the Cuban (DarkComplectedMan) was someone you recognized as Gator. Who was Gator and why do you think he was in Dealey Plaza? You also told us that Gordon Novel's hairstyle was what you called the "agency flip"...do you recall that? Do I understand you to imply that Roscoe was connected to Estes? Jack Jack. I think we have a few things a little off here or perhaps we each remember things a little different. I told you and Jim Marrs that Roscoe got the bump (lump) on his wrist from getting his arm (wrist) in the breach of a canon, a Howser 105 in Hawaii. I do not recall my saying a "sawmill". Perhaps you could give Jim a call and ask him if he remembers what I said. At one point I did say that the 'Dark Complected Man', COULD be "Gator" a person on the Dallas flight from West Palm and Tampa. I have never said he WAS Gator. He got his name tagged because he used to wrestle alligators at an alligator farm near West Palm Beach and lost a few fingers because of that. Peter Lemkin, Jim Marrs and I tried for years to prove that, but it went nowhere. We even ask you if you could blow that picture as well as the south knoll and see if he had any fingers missing, or anyone at the fork of the tree. (can't remember which hand now, but I think it was his right)... I could be wrong.., been awhile. P.S everyone on that flight was "CODED" real names were not used. As to who some of them really were in real life I would not know. Eagle, Hawk, Raven, and Gator, I did know from other operations in south Florida and Morgan City, LA. (Perhaps Peter might like to chim in on this point. He knows what I said and how I said it) I also said if it was him (Gator) then he was part of the abort team... something nobody wanted to accept at that point in time, or now. We also talked about the man with the radio in his back pocket, with his back to the photographer.., remember? I was ask if radios were used that day and I said Sergio had one. (perhaps Marrs or Lemkin would like to come in on this) As to what you said that day that Shook me, was something about south Texas and killings. It was the way you said it that caught my attention and I ask Jim about this later. I got a little jumpy because of that and thought you might be a contact to some who were still alive down there. I kind of felt I was being set up to a degree. You did not seem to be interest in much of what I had to say, until my brother and family ties were mentioned. (my impressions and speculations at the time) (do you believe there are two Tosh'es Now?) Was all these people assassins? If there were military people there from Miami scattered around, then why do they have to be assassins? Could they not have been part of the "abort", just doing their job? My last count there were over twenty five or thirty people there all from JM/WAVE as many "special interest cult researchers" have stated. That is not true. That would have been stupid don't you think? All in one place to watch the President get blasted. AND TOO, they got their pictures taken by many. However, on other OPS they never got their pictures taken. As to the "Agency Flip", and Gordon Novel; I have no memory of that.., and who is the "US" you refer to? "...I was not aware that anyone knew about those Texas associations of Billy Sol...". NO. I did not mean to implied that Rosco was associated with Estes. I was referencing others. Perhaps in my post I was not clear on that. We were talking about Roscoe White and the Texas matter came up in that conversation. I was making reference to those other boys.., not Roscoe and Estes having an association. I should perhaps be more clear on that.