Shanet Clark

John

Great list of mistakes made by the Watergate burglars.

I have always been most struck by the fact that Frank Sturgis resorted to loud hammering to break down the door.

It seems these experienced "tradecraft" professionals failed to use their skills while working for CREEP....would they have bungled a job so badly if their CIA case officers had been overseeing them? Probably not.

I have reason to believe that Watergate burglars Eugenio Martinez, Bernard Barker and Virgilio Gonzales were involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.... They are unlikely to talk, because of the threatening presence of other "enforcers" in Miami today, the same men whose names are sometimes suppressed by the search engines..........

The gutter shot theory again? Well, have you ever looked into a storm drain? It's not very wide. Can you imagine getting someone in a firing stance in that teensy little space and still have them be able to concentrate enough on the task at hand? Even if JFK could be seen, like Ron Ecker said - JFK was dead by that point anyway.

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That shot probably came from the south knoll (to kennedy's left)

and not from the sewer.

I have a number of friends and journalistic associates in Wisconsin.

They have struggled to publish newspapers for many years, under

the auspices of a loose Alternative Press Syndicate.

They have been infiltrated and sabotaged in many ways, burglarized,

the papers have been infiltrated by known federal agents repeatedly.

They have told me about personal knowledge they had of the

manipulation of Arthur Bremer. This is a sad story, one tied

to CHAOS and MOCKINGBIRD.

It is absolutely appalling that one of our most vocal FORUM members

was at the center of this effort.

......................

Shanet wrote:

With so much of the story classified (and so many witnesses murdered) we have to loosen our historical standards a little, to get at the truth.

Dixie wrote:

. . . I am astonished that you not only believe Judyth, but also sugggest those of us who do not believe her, should lower our standards, in order to do so.

Dixie, nothing should astonish you with respect to what Shanet believes.  Lower your historical standards enough and you will believe ANYTHING!

Remember Shanet once posted that he thought Sam Papich was a conspirator!

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Tim

I was never named as part of the group manipulating ARTHUR BREMER.

I was not part of the 1972 CREEP dirty tricks campaign.

I don't believe ANGLETON or HELMS or repeat their theories here.

YOU DO !

Good point

John Marks never would have found out the facts about MK/ULTRA

(since the operational files were destroyed) unless the financial files

had turned up.

Oswald's money is just another sign that this guy was working

for the government long after he left the Marines, defected and counter-defected.

James

Good advice.

Best Wishes.

Shanet

John wrote:

I've been real good in the investigative business and real lucky, if I may reiterate, as well. For some reason I always seem to meet the "right" people.

I am sure it is more than luck, John.  Now I am a very rational, non-superstitious person but I do believe in things such as instinct and hunches and they can, I think, be a part of intellectual judgment.  I think for a person with years of experience in investigating you can "develop" an instinct about, for instance, things that do not seem "right".

You will be in a distinct minority asserting that Oswald acted alone, but perhaps as you participate in the forum you may change your mind. 

Part of the issues raised in the the assassination research community is what is a coincidence and what is a conspiracy.  I remember wondering in 1964 if there was a connection between the deposition of Khruschev and the assassination of Kennedy.  It seemed rather co-incidental to me that the leaders of the world's two great super-powers would both be removed from office within a year.  Then last year I read in Trento's "The Secret History of the CIA" that it was Angleton's scenario that a group of hard-liners within the Politburo orchestrated both the assassination of Kennedy and the deposition of Khruschev.  Perhaps I found Angleton's scenario persuasive in part because it was consistent with what I felt intuitively in 1964.    Another reason why I suspected a left-wing plot early on was because the Paines' connections were to the left, not the right.  That is brought up in Manchester's book. It seems rather clear that if there was a conspiracy, the Paines were connected to it in some way.

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In my leisure time--what I have of it--I've be re-reading my copy of Theodore White's The Making of the President 1964, and the descriptions of what were characterized as outlandish statements by Goldwater in '64--such as allowing young people to opt out of Social Security--are part of the current administration's operational handbook.

And Goldwater was characterized as being "scary"; now "scary" is administration policy.

If you haven't read this book [or re-read it recently]--and White goes into great detail early on about the assassination and LBJ's taking of the reigns of government--I recommend very highly that you do so.

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In general this is now a REACTIONARY regime in Washington.

This word has a specific meaning.

Since Social Security was a New Deal Democratic program,

the REACTIONARIES want to reverse (privatize) the policy.

Since JIMMY CARTER wanted conservation, the reactionaries do not.

Since BILL CLINTON ended the US production of PLUTONIUM, the

reactionaries want to make it again, etc.

This is the bankruptcy of ideas now plaguing Washington...

If a DEMOCRAT did something, that something must be reversed.

Hi guys,

I must apologize for my statement that "I seriously doubt it is Ruby" as that is not accurate at all.

What I should have said is that this is one of those things that will never be settled mainly because the image itself tells us nothing. It is from behind and at some distance. Even if it is Ruby, the evidence as it stands proves nothing.

Frustrating to say the least.

James

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James

The same could be said of the man with the "tramps."

This photo resembles Jack Ruby, and the tramps

photo resembles Maxwell Taylor AND Colonel Lansdale..........

Then there are the George Bushes, Skull and Bones, CIA and Texas Oil all in one.

Brown and Root, DRAPER industries and BELL HELICOPTER......

And of course Earl Cabell ......

Almost the entire Cabinet was out of the country, on one airplane with its White House code book missing, at the time of the assassination. You have a clear choice on this. You can believe it was coincidental (it was, after all, an annually scheduled joint meeting with the Japanese), or you can believe that the assassination was planned to coincide with this scheduled absence (and the missing code book is certainly suspicious). But if you believe that it was not a coincidence, then you know who was behind the assassination. The only reason for conspirators to plan having the Cabinet away, out of the country, would be to facilitate a military coup, should such overt action be necessary. Moreover, who had the power to arrange the timing of a JFK trip in this way?

So if it wasn't a coincidence, what more do you need to know?

Ron

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Absolutely, Ron.

Not a coincidence...............

I found Judyth's story in TMWKK television show to be credible.

With so much of the story classified (and so many witnesses murdered) we have to loosen our historical standards a little, to get at the truth.

I believe Judyth saw what she said she saw: Oswald working with Ferrie on a cancer weapon, the injection of prisoners, etc.

She has credibility precisely because she has no government sinecure......

Her story should be taken at face value until it is DISPROVED, in my view....

I want to recommend a book to the group.

It is available on Amazon.

VIRTUAL GOVERNMENT

CIA MIND CONTROL OPERATIONS IN AMERICA

It ties together OPERATION PAPERCLIP, the MK ULTRA,

DILLON READ, ALLEN DULLES and some recent events.

It is not specifically about the JFK assassination,

but it sheds light on the workings of the Nazis,

John McCone, John J. McCloy, Frank Wisner and Cord Meyer.

There is a full chapter on OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD.

The Taos ELF hum, Jim Jones' Peoples Temple, the SLA and

recent occult child abuse rings -- (the work of old Nazis and the new CIA) ---

are all addressed in a sober, referenced and convincing manner........

I think Shackley was Florer.

Florer was apprehended around the Dal Tex building and gave a

story so similar to Brading/Braden that they seem to be scripted.

It seems to me that "babyface" Shackley and "gangland" Braden

were a shooting team, one with a rifle, the other with a radio, in the Dal Tex.

What did I tell you?

Thanks for the support ............

I knew Harry had something substantial to share with us, and this is it.

Reactonary militants and some very strong candidates from the past.

Thanks

This thread is GUARANTEED to be swamped by disinformation, so I will keep this short and direct:

The problem with Tim Gratz's theory is that hinges on Santo Trafficante.

Trafficante had shadowy dealings with organized crime in the US and he had running interests in Cuba.

By twisting the limited record, he can be linked to Castro's agents.....but...

It is just as easy, or easier, to see that TRAFFICANTE was linked to Carlos Marcello, Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli.....

In Fact, isn't it more likely that TRAFFICANTE was in bed with BEBE REBOZO and RICHARD NIXON, because of his Florida organized crime connections with MEYER LANSKY ???

My point is this:

Trafficante may have paid the odd Castro double agent, but if Marita Lorenz is to be believed, it seems that LANSKY, NIXON and TRAFFICANTE sent Frank Sturgis to Dallas with weapons in 1963.

The volume of material Gratz is willing to post never really gets beyond this basic objection, does it.

Gratz relationship with DONALD SEGRETTI and KARL ROVE, as a dirty tricks campus organizer in 1972 --

BUT WATCH OUT --- HERE IT COMES ---- THE TSUNAMI OF B.S. !!!

and published material linking him to a group influencing ARTHUR BREMER

make it imperative that we be SUSPICIOUS of this UNUSUAL member.....

So TIM GRATZ is an unindicted co-conspirator from the Watergate Era !

This would explain his attack on Mark Felt, his sympathy with COLSON,

and his ability to accept the theories of ANGLETON and HELMS.

Why does he try to take over every legitimate thread?

What is his motivation to say "Castro did it"?

Why does he cry crocodile tears over C.D. DILLON being suspect in 1963?

Some say TIM GRATZ has no job, but I say he is WORKING ..........

END OF STORY !

YOU ARE OUT OF THE GAME !

The failure of the SS to maintain speed and accelerate out of the

ambuscade have not gone away, not by any means.

The route, the slow slow speed, the braking under fire,

indicate some willful resistance to basic limosine security standards.

After DeDaulles driver saved his life from ambush by pure acceleration;

the agencies failed in a spectacular manner.

If Oswald was only a sociopath who defected to USSR and came back,

he would have been watched.

Look at the fourteen agents atop the railroad overpass

directly over Kennedy's head.

Look at the bright red brake lights in the color photos.

Watch the film of a CLINT HILL run and catch the vehicle and climb aboard the

walking speed vehicle !!!!!!!

A heavy limousine would COAST down that grade at 20-30 miles an hour, with no acceleration at all............

The security didn't "fail" it simply did as instructed to allow the EXECUTIVE SANCTION /// /// ///

Gratz is fatuous and intellectually impotent

To say Gratz is fatuous and intellectually impotent is like saying the Elephant Man was a little puffy under the eyes.

Lecturing Greg (and all else)? Amusing, or not so, depending on how you look at it.

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Yes, I was taking it easy on him.

You should hear what I really think............

DISINFORMATION AND FLOODING OF THIS FORUM IS NOW OCCURRING

IGNORE THE DISRUPTIVE AND REACTIONARY MESSAGES

USE CRITICAL THINKING AND QUESTION AUTHORITY

Let me elucidate.

Clarence Douglas Dillon had a similar background to Prescott Bush and Allen Dulles. International banking with plenty of contact with German corporate interests, intelligence and highest level financial privateering, war profiteering.

I introduced him as a possible conspirator based on his STRUCTURAL location in the chain of command, and because of the outlandish failures of his employees in the Secret Service.

I have named THOMAS KARAMESSINES, MARSHALL CARTER, MAXWELL TAYLOR and RICHARD HELMS for similar reasons.

The executive sanction model, based on incapacity or loss of clearance, is a common sense approach and should be viewed as a synthesis of reasonable difficulties with the AUTOPSY, WARREN REPORT, HSCA 1978 REPORT, etc.

The theory that Castro and the KGB murdered Kennedy is based on the statements of ALEXANDER HAIG, RICHARD HELMS and JAMES JESUS ANGLETON.

Tim Gratz theory is not credible by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not coherent, coherent or compelling. It is false and in fact, disinformation.

While I believe John Simkins, Larry Hancock and James Richards have identified the TACTICAL agents responsible for the assassination, I have reason to believe my theory of EXECUTIVE SANCTION is the STRATEGIC and closely held source of the tactical ambush.

When Barr McClellan gained notoriety for his theory implicating Lyndon Johnson, I decided (at great personal risk) to disclose my conclusions concerning the intelligence findings, incapacity findings and removal of JFK by Cabinet Level executives within the government.

Tim Gratz presence on the FORUM is disruptive and comically inept.

His point of view is typical of the Neoconservative and right wing mindless authoritarians who are now in power in Washington.

Tim Gratz failure to engage critical thinking or use rational approaches is obvious.

He is in fact a simple foil, and a straw man.

He is like the simpleton who writes angry patriotic letters to the local paper.

Those of us who have broken through our indoctrination and socialization to question authority see Tim Gratz's material for what it is:

Right wing propaganda which shows a laughable lack of critical thinking.

It is obvious that this individual is out-numbered and pathetically incompetent in pushing his outlandish and unsatisfactory hypothesis.

I saw G. Gordon Liddy give a speech once, and he defended the burglary of the Democratic Headquarters because the McGovern people were "Communists"

Gratz is fatuous and intellectually impotent, and his disinformation campaign should be heartily ignored as the work of an amusing reactionary...........

The FBI reorganization efforts have all been flawed.

They could not research their own databases and they scrapped their computer system. Mueller keeps adding layers and Executive reorganization schemes.

This new shake up will not help them, either.

The CIA and NSA don't trust them at all, and keep everything from them.

Justice and FBI are the Barney Fife's of the intelligence agencies, real deadwood.

Plus they used their labs to frame people so often judges don't believe their technical findings.

The FBI is full of tenured state employees who trip over each other trying for institutional advancement but the terrorists and criminals in the street never quite make the list..............

Anybody got any more stuff on the Novel One?

Let me elucidate.

Clarence Douglas Dillon had a similar background to Prescott Bush and Allen Dulles. International banking with plenty of contact with German corporate interests, intelligence and highest level financial privateering, war profiteering.

I introduced him as a possible conspirator based on his STRUCTURAL location in the chain of command, and because of the outlandish failures of his employees in the Secret Service.

I have named THOMAS KARAMESSINES, MARSHALL CARTER, MAXWELL TAYLOR and RICHARD HELMS for similar reasons.

The executive sanction model, based on incapacity or loss of clearance, is a common sense approach and should be viewed as a synthesis of reasonable difficulties with the AUTOPSY, WARREN REPORT, HSCA 1978 REPORT, etc.

The theory that Castro and the KGB murdered Kennedy is based on the statements of ALEXANDER HAIG, RICHARD HELMS and JAMES JESUS ANGLETON.

Tim Gratz theory is not credible by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not coherent, coherent or compelling. It is false and in fact, disinformation.

While I believe John Simkins, Larry Hancock and James Richards have identified the TACTICAL agents responsible for the assassination, I have reason to believe my theory of EXECUTIVE SANCTION is the STRATEGIC and closely held source of the tactical ambush.

When Barr McClellan gained notoriety for his theory implicating Lyndon Johnson, I decided (at great personal risk) to disclose my conclusions concerning the intelligence findings, incapacity findings and removal of JFK by Cabinet Level executives within the government.

Tim Gratz presence on the FORUM is disruptive and comically inept.

His point of view is typical of the Neoconservative and right wing mindless authoritarians who are now in power in Washington.

Tim Gratz failure to engage critical thinking or use rational approaches is obvious.

He is in fact a simple foil, and a straw man.

He is like the simpleton who writes angry patriotic letters to the local paper.

Those of us who have broken through our indoctrination and socialization to question authority see Tim Gratz's material for what it is:

Right wing propaganda which shows a laughable lack of critical thinking.

It is obvious that this individual is out-numbered and pathetically incompetent in pushing his outlandish and unsatisfactory hypothesis.

I saw G. Gordon Liddy give a speech once, and he defended the burglary of the Democratic Headquarters because the McGovern people were "Communists"

Gratz is fatuous and intellectually impotent, and his disinformation campaign should be heartily ignored as the work of an amusing reactionary...........