Shanet Clark

I have seen no evidence that Helms was involved in the assassination.  Have you?

Yes. Aside from the company Helms kept, read Bob Haldeman's account (The Ends of Power, pp. 37-39) of Helms's "violent reaction" to "the Bay of Pigs may be blown" message that Haldeman conveyed to Helms from President Nixon during Watergate, and what Haldeman thought that it meant.

Ron

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I think Richard Helms, like his associate Marshall Carter,

were structurally indicted in the assassination, due to their positions.

They were responsible for the agencies various mafia

mercenary and domestic operations, and Hunt's boss,

Fitzgerald, Shackley, Harvey, Karamessines, etc.

Helms probably knew more about the Kennedy assassination than any man alive

when he ran the CIA in the late 1960's and early 1970's.

Like other issues of the day, whether his culpability was limited to the cover up

or involved foreknowledge, is unclear, but he is STRUCTURALLY a suspect in

the events of 1963.

AGAIN, I am not Piling On, or participating in the right wing aspersions on JFK

I am only illustrating the various pretexts the AGENCIES may have used

to DECLARE JOHN KENNEDY UNFIT FOR HIS SECURITY CLEARANCES.

I believe the secret intercepts and files developed on JFK led to his

downfall, and that "Honest Men" could be pressured to participate in the

event because of the INCAPACITY pretext, which is set out in the 25th Amendment.

My basic take on this -

When taken into custody for the murders, Oswald turned to his

core recruiter from the old days, someone who he idealized as

impartial and patriotic, with both the US and Oswalds best interests at

heart and who could intervene to explain Oswalds allegiance.

The joint defense/civilian signals agent from Atsugi, Japan, John Hurt.

He bought the farm.

Dawn

Don't get me wrong, I am just placing the various scandals that may have led to incapacity or instability or unfitness findings to have been laid on Kennedy by the joint agencies.

My list is an understatement (except for the VD) and I think Seymour Hersh is pretty accurate. More accurate than say Oliver Stone's "Nixon"...

My point is to expand on the potential leads a hostile clandestine agency might have had against JFK---and that list is not all of it by any means!

Interesting anecdote from Katie Graham: it is apropos that John Mitchell (husband of Martha Mitchell) warned that Katie Graham at the Washington Post would get her "TEAT IN A WRINGER" if she pursued the Watergate story.

However this thread can look into many other JFK Security Risks, some are aspersions the right wing has cast on him, most have some basis in fact: A very short rundown, based on memory, to start, and I will look into Dark Camelot by Seymour Hersh and other sources, (OVID DEMARIS)

Security Risks of John Kennedy (potentially)

1. Venereal Disease

2. LSD or Mescaline use with Mary Meyer

3. Addison's Disease (denied)

4. Inga Arvad (warime ONI/Navy and FBI files)

5. Ellen Romesch

6. Ambassador's Wife #1 Patricia ....

7. Judith Exner

8. Marilyn Monroe

9. Sam Giancana

10. Costello via Joseph P. Kennedy

11. Orgies

12. Backchannel Communications with leftists

13. Incriminating electronic intercepts (underage, married, leftist, substances)

of course I could go on, and I am not at all hostile to Kennedy or believe

that he violated his oath of office. But in the context of the Cold War

secret joint civilian agency ascendency, their was no room for this freedom

and human joie d'vivre...........

This material supports my theory, not only in its general content

"what Bobby said" but also by the implications of the back channel.

In other words, Kruschev, the KGB and probably the US joint agencies

had prior knowledge of all this and circulated memos concerning

these security violations, lapses, breaches, what have you.

When Americans in the Cold War even communicated with Soviets,

the REACTION was often greater than the INITIAL ACTION.

Again, all this points to a joint paramilitary (civilian and military intelligence agencies) effort. The complex interrelationship of the Army (max taylor, ed walker) the Air Force (Lansdale) the Navy (JFK Bethesda, marine oswald, Navy Secretary issues) the civilian agency one (desmond fitzgerald, harvey, the cubans, hunt, phillips) and now these gentlemen, MCCLENDON and JOHN HURT

from the second civilian agency, or better the agency most submerged in the grey area between military and civil (and domestic and foreign) responsibilities.

This second agency enters the picture as a Japanese Cryptological group,

circa 1959 in Atsugi, and the photos show the civilian/military hybrid nature.

This John Hurt call, linked to Ruby's call to a similarly placed crypto-analyst

from the joint civilian intelligence agency, are quite important and instructive.

Very serious events occur under the veil of TOP SECRET CLASSIFIED EYES ONLY.

Things never intended by the founding fathers of 1787, but known to the authors

of the WARREN REPORT and the TWENTY FIFTH AMENDMENT.

SHANET CLARK

Lee and Jim

Great stuff, why was Oswald's FBI contact, who burned the note from Oswald,

running around Dallas with a Military Intelligence agent November 22, 1963?

Why? Because Hosty was being handled? To make sure there was no

FBI-Oswald contact around the morning of 11/22/63?

Cord Meyer and Mary Meyer, now these point back to my theory.

John F. Kennedy taped, tapped and photographed with a 1960's

artist and friend of Timothy Leary.

This 1960's artist and psychedelic apostle was also married to a top CIA

honcho while sleeping with and otherwise expanding the President's perceptions.

Angleton and the notebook of Mary Meyer, after her murder, point to this -

Jack Kennedy lost his security clearance by being declared incapacitated

by Mary Meyer's LSD. Speculative, but within the limits of the logic of the classified cold war records.

Shanet

Yes, ie Maxwell Taylor

Jim Root

PS  Ever heard of Cord Meyer?  He may have had a whole different motive.

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Jim,

In Latin America I believe they call it 'an affair of the skirt.' The skirt in question had a CIA file on her since 12/8/1953. 98% redacted.

- lee

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Shanet

I may be to simple minded but I like the old fashioned, "Col. Mustard in the Kitchen with the pipe wrench" approach.

What I mean, rather than a hugh conspiracy; how about one man who knew all the players, who knew the positioning and knew that everyone would be looking over their own shoulders, protecting their own rears, wondering who really did it as they willingly participated in a cover-up that would protect there own past misdeeds.  Someone who would benifit from the assassination and could justify it in their own mind exactly along the lines that you have suggested within your posts.

Jim Root

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I.E., Maxwell Taylor. Yes, but my point is that the effort enjoyed large political support, assent and acquiescence, because of this quasi-legal security clearance issue and incapacity rationale. Johnson, Hoover, Nixon and the joint agencies seemed to conspire as if were legal. Nixon was in Dallas, and his soft drink multinational had lost property in Cuba. He had connections with Jack Ruby, secret Bahamian and Swiss banks, Miami financial concerns via Bebe Rebozo and 10-20 million dollar slush funds during his later election cycles...

I don't know that much about the origins of these paramilitary

civilian intelligence agencies. I read the first and third James Bamford

books (Puzzle Palace/Pretext for War) on the NSA.

I am interested in the Maxwell Taylor angle and it includes shedding

light on the role of various military programs for counter espionage and

psychological mind control, truth serums, hypnosis, LSD and what have you.

Another character, a protege of General George C. Marshall, was

the highly decorated Marshall Carter.

As DDC for Intelligence and head of the ultra-sensitive NSA agency,

he would have been privy to the various electronic and photographic

evidence in the case:

this would include the cover-up, any overseas phone traffic, Mexico City and Havana materials, and especially, military and civilian agency files on the

medical and mental health aspects of John F. Kennedy, illicitly gained.

I really think the grey area of IRRESPONSIBILITY was formed, the joint

civilian paramilitary intelligence agency was in the ascendant in 1963,

and, like Mark Lane and many others, believe the Vietnam War and the

military industrial congressional complex as outlined by John Simkin

stood to gain and shed light on the causes of the coup detat.

But it certainly was a coup detat triggered from deep in the militant

reac tionary opposition to Kennedy, from people in power to remain in power.

Connally, as former Secretary of the Navy, was probably witting.

Kennedy, as a Naval Officer, probably had a mixed file, and the use of

naval (marine) counter-defector, either as a sniper or as a "lost" patsy

for public consumption, all these Naval interests come together in the

idea of Incapacity, or Unfitness, being secretly levied on Kennedy,

and the cliche Executive Sanction being used to strip him of his

security clearance as presiding officer.

I think the agencies knew of his drug usage and declared him legally insane in secret paperwork, and the exposte facto rationale, legitimization and

essential political cover is found in the 25th amendment,

exonerating Johnson, Dillon and the Cabinet level advisors in power in the mid 1960s.....

Lee

It is my understanding that the Trade Mart and therefore the route decission came down from Washington.  Info may be in the "Big Fish" thread but comes from the Warren Report.

Jim Root

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Don't discount the Pepsi Bottlers, they were an important corporate group, especially where sugar and the Caribean were concerned. Pepsi had many international bottling centers, capitol city locations and a national US presence. Mr. Nixon was very close to a DONALD KENDALL who is implicated in much of the reactionary and corrupt politics of the WATERGATE, the NIXON IMPEACHMENT and the NIXON RESIGNATION AUGUST 1974.

His conference at the Center, his party with the pricipals and his shady exit from Dallas Texas around 9 a.m. 11/22/63 are grotesque, and point to a joint paramilitary sanctioned inside job with bipartisan support, ala the 25th Amendment..

Shanet

Are you sure of that Phoenix date, November 21, 1963....This is getting deep.

McGeorge Bundy was part of what I call the "Italian Group" during WWII (see backround in the "Why Assassination Necessary" thread) and worked with John J. McCloy and Maxwell Taylor in the surrender of Italy and the formation of civilian government in occupied territories.

Wasn't Operation Phoenix run by William Colby who came to the OSS via the 99th Battalion (later commanded by Edwin Walker) during WWII?

Wasn't Operation Phoenix similar to covert operations carried out during the Greek Civil War while Edwin Walker was running the Greek desk at the Pentagon?  The Greek Civil War where Thomas Karamesssines (the person in Richard Helms office that was monitoring Oswald's movements) got his start in the CIA.

Does this sound like "Seven Days in May?"

Jim Root

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Yes to all these, the GREEK situation was very touchy throughout this period,

as they bordered the iron curtain, and had nationalist and royalist interests.

Apparently Nixon was compromised, or very sensitive, about the GREEK

political situation in our time period. Mr. Karamessines was a witting agent

of the joint paramilitary domestic agenda of the period.

Guenther Lewy's book, America in Vietnam shows Colby's Counter-Intelligence

political assassination "corporation" but it showed me the fundamental

futility of separating civilian agency and military forces roles and agendas.

In 1963 this joiint paramilitary force was operating on US soil in illegal

domestic operations, ARTICHOKE< MK ULTRA < PAPERCLIP <BLUE SKY

<CHAOS<COINTEL< etc....

Another tid bit from this article I found interesting is that Eugenio Martinez, future legendary boat operator, Agency asset, shadow warrior and Watergate burglar, was helping to make the decision to whack Batista's chief of Military Intelligence.

Certainly a man of action.

I know he runs a car dealership in Miami somewhere so maybe one of our Florida members (Tim Gratz) could introduce themselves. 

Just kidding.

James

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Exactly, Eugenio Martinez and the Cuban effort is heavily tinged with

mixed and changing allegiances, counter-intelligence and counter-intuitive behaviors.

The concept of a false effort to kill Castro (or an ongoing but blown effort)

is certainly not out of the range of possibility. Trafficante was probably in a

position to yeah or nay on a lot of this stuff.

Anthony Summers has a lot of evidence concerning Nixon and Ruby in the

Havana handover, and our Friend TOSH's memory goes back to when

the CIA was behind CASTRO circa 1954, if I understand. Good Thread.

{{I have found it best to NOT look for motivation, but look only at behavior and consequences, how people reacted.}}

Well, Jim, I agree we are moving forward. Since Lee Oswald called a man in Raleigh North Carolina the night he was in jail in Dallas, and that man's name was John Hurt, then you are on the right track.

A John Hurt in the Signal Intelligence, a Japanese linguist from the WWII era, would tend to be an interesting choice for the counter-defector, Oswald.

Atsugi was not only a radio signals asia center, it was the asian center for the MK-ULTRA, and government documents show 100,000 dosages of LSD-25 in the safe at Atsugi in the period in question, 1959-1963.

Maxwell Taylor and Marshall Carter became heads of the Plans and Joint paramilitary agency structures, and structurally should have been aware of OPERATION TILT and the activities of a counter defecting former Atsugi Marine. The joint agency (military and civilian) model that General Maxwell Taylor brought to bear in the OPERATION PHOENIX counter-insurgency and assassination effort was inaugurated the night of November 21, 1963 when McGeorge Bundy changed the parameters and tasking mission for US forces in Indochina.

John Hurt, as is obvious from the above, was a string Oswald was trying to pull, and a solid lead for us today into the Signals and Joint Operations context of the 1959-64 period, as it points to a PROGRAM to run an AGENT via the well known and partially exposed MK ULTRA mind control and counter defector assassination directorate.

So yes, a signals intelligence translator from the Cold War era in Japan, would be a very telling person for the "Communist" or patsy, to call from jail right before he died.

Shanet Clark

John

Thank you for this thread, the timming is perfect.

In the past I have referred to the Hosty note of November 5th that provided Washington with information about where Oswald was working.  Within the last few hours I have learned that this note/information was never given a WC Exhibit number and was in fact written/sent on November 4th.  In other words the note has been "lost" to history except for a few paragraphs buried within the WC records.  My "Big Fish" thread talks alot about this note which you can find reference to in the testimony of James P. Hosty:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hosty.htm

The fact that this note is now "lost" only adds luster to its value.  Within Hosty's testimony we find that it's existance is confirmed by the fact that the note generated Dallas regaining the designation as "Origin" for the Oswald file (the information arrived from New Orleans on November 22, 1963).

In the Jefferson Morley article, "What Jane Roman Said" we find that a previous note from Hosty made it to Thomas Karamessines (Richard Helms office) in a timely manner.  It is easy to speculate that the note of November 4, 1963 would arrive in the same office before the motorcade route was decided.

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/fram...RomanSaid_1.htm

In rereading the Hosty Testimony it almost seems as if this information (Nov. 4th note) takes Dulles and McCloy by surprize.  If so the "rogue agents" group would find this of interest.  For myself there is one other element though.  Whoever planned the route would also have to suspect/know that Oswald had taken a shot at General Edwin Anderson Walker for the whole mess to work.

Jim Root

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Ed

Great Post, Welcome to the group. This Irving I. Davidson seems to be mixed up with quite a few suspects. Jack Anderson really appeared to be independent on many of his stories, but at the perimeter of what he knew, who he knew and what he was willing to publish, are some very serious questions, especially in light of the emerging MOCKINGBIRD program files.

Well, Jim, I agree we are moving forward.

Since Lee Oswald called a man in Raleigh North Carolina the night he was in jail in Dallas, and that man's name was John Hurt, then you are on the right track.

A John Hurt in the Signal Intelligence, a Japanese linguist from the WWII era,

would tend to be an interesting choice for the counter-defector, Oswald.

Atsugi was not only a radio signals asia center, it was the asian center for the MK-ULTRA, and government documents show 100,000 dosages of LSD-25 in the

safe at Atsugi in the period in question, 1959-1963.

Maxwell Taylor and Marshall Carter became heads of the Plans and Joint

paramilitary agency structures, and structurally should have been aware

of OPERATION TILT and the activities of a counter defecting former Atsugi

Marine. The joint agency (military and civilian) model that General Maxwell

Taylor brought to bear in the OPERATION PHOENIX counter-insurgency

and assassination effort was inaugurated the night of November 21,

1963 when McGeorge Bundy changed the parameters and tasking mission

for US forces in Indochina.

John Hurt, as is obvious from the above, was a string Oswald was trying to pull,

and a solid lead for us today into the Signals and Joint Operations context

of the 1959-64 period, as it points to a PROGRAM to run an AGENT

via the well known and partially exposed MK ULTRA mind control

and counter defector assassination directorate.

So yes, a signals intelligence translator from the Cold War era in Japan,

would be a very telling person for the "Communist" or patsy, to call from jail

right before he died.

Shanet Clark

The last few weeks have been extremely exciting in my quest for answers to my questions that surround the assassination of John F. Kennedy.  Many pieces of the puzzle seem to be falling into place for me ("Big Fish" and "Route of the Dallas Motorcade") in particular.

It just occured to me that the Japanese linguist, John Hurt, that worked with Maxwell Taylor in the "old munitions building" prior to WWII and whom I believe Edwin Walker was associated with prior to that time, was a Japanese linguist.  DUH!

John Hurt also had a security clearence of the highest level while working within the "Magic" program that broke the Japanese code during WWII.  This information was not declassified until after the assassination of JFK (giving reason to hide the name of this John Hurt if this is in fact the "real" John Hurt that Oswald was attempting to contact while in custody after the assassination).

If this John Hurt continued working for intelligence it could be assumed he would continue working in association with the Japanese language and issues centering around Japan.  DUH!

Astugi airbase is in Japan and this is where some people believe that Oswald first made contact with elements of some intelligence organization/s.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone else or is it a dead end road?

Jim Root

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Colonel Lansdale was the living model for "The Ugly American"

He was a counter-intelligence adviser in the Phillipines,

where quite a large number were killed in the 1950's and was

to use the expertise in political assassination and terror

that he learned in the Phillippines in the 1950's

in Vietnam and greater Southeast Asia in the 1960's.

As a colonel in Air Force intelligence, he was significant in the move toward

joint paramilitary operations involving multiple civilian and military agencies.

It was the coldest part of the Cold War, and Colonel Lansdale was implicated

in the assassination of JFK by his colleague and associate, Lt. Col. Fletcher Prouty.

It would tie in with a theory of joint paramilitary agency sanction on Kennedy.

Maxwell Taylor and McGeorge Bundy would escalate and greatly heighten

air, land, sea and signals efforts in Vietnam in the immediate aftermath of 11/63.

What Edwin Walker was to the Oswald frame, Lansdale was to the actual ambush team, or so it seems...

They had the unmarked stash of WWII Rome HQ rifles, it follows from there.

Great thread and Line of Inquiry.

I have just ordered a CD ROM of declassified Nixon Era Domestic files.

These MOCKINGBIRD programs tie in with the known domestic operations

CHAOS and COINTELPRO.

When the CIA domestic operations and armed forces intelligence

agencies come together to run highly classified programs on US soil,

that is a joint agency illegal operation.

I believe 11/22/63 was the capstone and centerpiece of

this joint agency paramilitary program, a moment

when the combined agencies of the classified secret bureaus

got the upper hand over any elected official...

Jim,

The part about Army agents I find of particular interest when looking at domestic spying.

You might find this site interesting:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/NSA/Mili...ligence_LS.html

Also, do a google searches for Christopher Pyle, the Senate Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights, and CONUS Intelligence.

The results might astound you.

From a site called FindLaw for Legal Professionals:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...=405&invol=1026

"Senator Ervin, who chaired these hearings, warns this Court in an amicus brief in another case, that "it is not an exaggeration to talk in terms of hundreds of thousands of individuals, organizations, events, and dossiers."

Steve Thomas

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Staged?

This is a broad term, my Australian friend...

Staged from scratch, for no purpose?

Were individuals "found" or in need of protection at the railyards?

I believe the Bum Walk was staged, in that it was a non-arrest,

it was more of a security escort for these three characters.

It could have been staged just for propaganda "grey" misinformation, but why?

It wasn't good law enforcement, it was a staged escort for some shady characters,

and "Lansdale" (not positively ID'd) was allowed to get very close to "Harrelson" (not positively ID'd) and the security of the process was very weak, as if these men were known to be know real threat.

I think Howard Hunt was in it up to his ears, but I tend to believe Chauncy Holt's

scenario.

I think the third "Bum" is an as yet unnamed French OAS mercenary assassin,

possibly an associate of the late Albert Spaggia ...

Look again at greg's figures-

The Tramp's "Lansdale" has a substantially longer jawline,

possible glasses, and possibly older than this other photographed figure.

Prouty knew Lansdale and said that his left shoulder dipped as he walked.

They are not at the same point in their stride to compare this.

Whether or not it is Lansdale, the whole procedure seems phony.

The lax control, the slinking suited figure (a handoff may even have occured),

the fact that the names were suppressed, the whole thing looks bad, after 40 years.

good thread.

John,

I've noticed some very good posts from you recently.

Could you post a short column here containing your findings,

since you seem to be facing some imminent disruption?

Shanet

Oh thats far too dark and doomy.

The Cray supercomputers xxxxx through this stuff, but no

analyst spends much time on this particular forum,

we are really just old crusty blowhards,

spouting back theories that thirty years of underground

and alternative journalism has spawned.

Even John with his exhaustive database, biographies on SPARTACUS

and Tosh, a minor participant, or James Richards, a

crusading photo historian,

I don't think all of us together rate a raised eyebrow.

We go on a list and nothing happens.

This is just what it is -- a speculative educational history forum

and the only reasons the great ECHELON and FT MEADE

computers pick us up is because it is all overseas.

We ain't spit on the windshield at the agencies, a remote pinprick of public criticism.

Robert Maheu's book was ghosted by Ron Laytner and it has an interesting

anecdote about receiving a call from the Mormon guard surrounding the

defense industrialist, Howard Hughes. It seems Mr. Maheu got a call

from the inner sanctum "who did Lyndon Johnson serve under as Vice President?"

"What, whats this all about?"

"Well, Mr. Maheu, Mr. Hughes is here dictating a letter to President Johnson.

He starts out by saying that he remembers Lyndon Johnson from when

he was Vice President under Harry Truman, and that can't be right, is it, sir?"

(I am paraphrasing), and Maheu says the letter to Johnson was corrected before being sent. Strange glimpse at the Hughes perception of the world...

Hughes Death, like that of J. Edgar Hoover, became the source of a scramble

for documents, and the notebooks (in Michael Drosnin's CITIZEN HUGHES)

tell us quite a bit about Mr. Hughes empire.

Certainly Richard Nixon was very concerned about the limits of Howard Hughes

intelligence resources.....Harry Truman, indeed....

Could you post that link?

I came to similar conclusions based on the photos and text on AJ Weberman's site.